why heaven is effing dumb

[MatCauthon]

So yahweh turns out to be real, and for some reason you (being the blasphemous bastard that you are) get to heaven when you die. Since it is your first day, the big guy himself welcomes you to his club:

GAWD: Dude, you made it! Anything you want, it's yours!
You: Anything?
GAWD: Yep. It's pretty sweet. I made this cloud-house myself. Awesome, huh?
You: Yeah, sure. So I can really have anything?
GAWD: Yeah, just think it, and it's yours. I made it really difficult down there, really simple up here. Don't ask why.
You: So, can I be with my wife again?
GAWD: Ooooh. That's a tough one.
You: Why? Can't I go back to earth?
GAWD: NO WAY DUDE! That is out of the question. Why would you ask such a thing?
You: Well, you said anything.... Could you send my wife up here with me?
GAWD: Oh man.... I wish you hadn't asked me that... she's going to hell. Hate to break it to you.

You know it would have to happen if all that crap were real.

[none]

she'd be safe with me... don't worry.

[Nick]

God should just introduce him to that 72 virgin thing and he will forget all about his wife in no time.

[ParkingPlaces]

God should just introduce him to that 72 virgin thing and he will forget all about his wife in no time.

Given my track record in real life, I assume 72 virgins would fairly quickly turn into 72 child-support payments, for all of infinity.

I prefer hell.

[SimpleCaveman]

An 85 year old couple, having been married almost 60 years, die in a car crash. They had been in good health the last ten years, mainly due to the wife's interest in health food.

When they reached the pearly gates, St. Peter took them to their mansion, which was decked out with a beautiful kitchen and master bath suite with Jacuzzi. As they "oohed and aahed", the old man asked Peter how much all this was going to cost.

"It's free," Peter replied, Remember, this is Heaven."

Next they went out back to see the championship golf course the home backed up to. They would have golfing privileges every day, and each week the course changed to a new one representing the great golf courses on Earth. The old man asked, "What are the green fees?"

"This is heaven," St. Peter replied. "You play for free."

Next they went to the clubhouse and saw the lavish buffet lunch with the cuisine's of the world laid out. "How much to eat?" asked the old man.

"Don't you understand yet?" St. Peter asked. "This is heaven. It's free!"

"Well, where are the low fat and low cholesterol foods?" the old man asked timidly.

"That's the best part...you can eat as much as you like of whatever you like and you never get fat and you never get sick. This is Heaven."

The old man looked at his wife and said, "You and your stupid bran muffins. I could have been here ten years ago!

 

[Nick]

You have to feel sorry for St Peter.  Jesus most trusted apostle and what does he end up doing???  Being the most glorified Wal Mart greater ever...and for ever.

[SimpleCaveman]

You have to feel sorry for St Peter.  Jesus most trusted apostle and what does he end up doing???  Being the most glorified Wal Mart greater ever...and for ever.

LOL Just goes to show how inadequate our imagination is.

[Samothec]

Here's a brain twister for you:
A non-practicing pedophile - meaning he has sexual desires for children but never acts on them, not even a hug or touching a child casually on the shoulder - and has been a good person all his life and is truly repentant for every little thing he did wrong and even his bad thoughts goes to heaven. If he still has his Earthly desires, does he now get to have sex with children (or a child-substitute which he'll never know isn't real)? Do his Earthly desires get wiped away? If so, is he still the same person?

Obvious argument to avoid these questions would be that his desires force him into hell even though he never did anything. But then that means good people can end up in hell.

[none]

Here's a brain twister for you:
A non-practicing pedophile - meaning he has sexual desires for children but never acts on them, not even a hug or touching a child casually on the shoulder - and has been a good person all his life and is truly repentant for every little thing he did wrong and even his bad thoughts goes to heaven. If he still has his Earthly desires, does he now get to have sex with children (or a child-substitute which he'll never know isn't real)? Do his Earthly desires get wiped away? If so, is he still the same person?

Obvious argument to avoid these questions would be that his desires force him into hell even though he never did anything. But then that means good people can end up in hell.

that is no brain twister.
the solution is simple.
Some dumb ass comes on the forum and says what you have said.

[Dominic]

Here's a brain twister for you:
A non-practicing pedophile - meaning he has sexual desires for children but never acts on them, not even a hug or touching a child casually on the shoulder - and has been a good person all his life and is truly repentant for every little thing he did wrong and even his bad thoughts goes to heaven. If he still has his Earthly desires, does he now get to have sex with children (or a child-substitute which he'll never know isn't real)? Do his Earthly desires get wiped away? If so, is he still the same person?

Obvious argument to avoid these questions would be that his desires force him into hell even though he never did anything. But then that means good people can end up in hell.

I'm not going to presume to know how a perfect being would deal with that situation, nor can we now appreciate properly what the perfection of Heaven will be like - but we could have a go at devising our own 'heavenly' outcomes ie what do we think would happen if the world/heaven was perfect - so...

Firstly he definitely musn't be sent to hell - that would not be fair at all (and I don't think he is technically a pedophile if he has not acted on his desires).  Secondly, I decree that when he arrives in Heaven he is immediately given every insight and immediately sees how ridiculous and stupid were his previous desires which instantly and completely cease from that instant.  And thirdly, he will meet a beautiful (and appropriately aged) woman who will show him what he has truly been missing all those years.

Next!   : - )

[ParkingPlaces]

Heaven is a one-size-fits-all, incredibly generic, totally undescribed monolithic future with no promise of freedom whatsoever. I love imagining some filthy rich American getting in and then asking "Okay, how do I get rich and powerful here!"

"Um, that's not an option. This is heaven. You do what we say. End of story..."

Talk about a bunch of pissed formerly rich a**holes...

 

[jetson]

How about God give us all of that right now?

[ParkingPlaces]

How about God give us all of that right now?

He has everything stashed away in a Caymans Island bank account.

He may be omnipotent, but he isn't stupid!

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi Samothec,

Pleasure to “meet” you.

Here's a brain twister for you:

I like these thoughtful questions and would like to respond. However, let me say a couple of things first. Sometimes I can be on the forum and many times not. I have a lot of things to do and have taken on some more responsibilities recently. That’s why I came to Chatter, to take part in “less serious chit-chat” because I often can’t stay on here for the entire conversation in other threads. However, you do ask an interesting question.

The good thing for me is that Dominick gave such a good answer already. Bookmark that post. All I want to do is add a few thoughts.

In some ways the man you’re describing is no different than the rest of us. We all have temptations that plague us during our life. It’s when we give in to those temptations in our thoughts or in our actions that we sin.

As you have laid out the scenario, what makes the man you describe unique is that it sounds like he actually achieves what we are all called to do and that is live a chaste life. I would even say that he is a hero. His courage and strength in the suffering he endured is heroic – suffering in the sense of having these desires and battling them and not giving in to them. 

He does not do that alone. The only way we are able to be heroic is by cooperating with the grace that God gives us, though it doesn’t have be consciously in those terms. As we do he continues to give us grace – the right amounts in the right ways and times so that, if we choose, we can be great heroes. The exciting thing is that freedom from sin and purity of grace can be achieved here on Earth, though it’s hard. That’s why it’s heroic.

Then what happens in heaven? Heaven is a place of perfect love. The desires that this man feels are lust, perversions of love, and so have no place in Heaven. If he has not been healed of whatever wounds perverted his true love by the time he dies, (and given the scenario I’d be surprised if that’s not the case)  then, again given the scenario you describe and as Dominic says, he would be healed and made perfect so that he could enter into Heaven.

Then you ask is he still the same person? Yes and no. He is still everything that is good and pure about him, and he is freed from the desires that hold him down and he has been fighting against all his life. He is still who he was, but in a perfected and glorious way.

Finally, a small quibble with what Dominic said about the woman (which may or may not have been serious). A similar transfiguration, if you will, happens with marriage. In Heaven there will be no marriage in the way we have today. Instead we will have the perfection of marriage, which is the complete giving of ourselves to God in total and perfect love and vice versa.  Everything else, every other desire – good or not – will pale by comparison to the joy we experience in Heaven. That’s why the original post was off base. It’s like eating mud and then being given real food – such as a nice, thick, juicy steak. We won’t even think of wanting to eat mud again.

Great question. Thanks again for posting it. Now back to the light chatter. :-)

[ParkingPlaces]

In some ways the man you’re describing is no different than the rest of us. We all have temptations that plague us during our life. It’s when we give in to those temptations in our thoughts or in our actions that we sin.

I have to ask. What temptations plague me? Where am I torn by the thought of doing something sinful? Or, as an atheist, something just plain wrong?

I get up every day, eat breakfast, work, come home, eat dinner, spend time with friends, cut firewood for elderly friends, play around on the computer. The thought of doing something wrong never crosses my mind. If i see a woman in the store I give no thought to raping her. If I see a cash register drawer open with lots of money in it, I give no thought to stealing. If I am in my car and on a lonely stretch of road, I give no thought to going 100 mph.

Am I perfect? No. Am I constantly torn by thoughts of doing horrible or even just sort of wrong things? No.

Where is this temptation that I am always fighting off? How do you define it? And why do you think everyone is dealing with it?

Just curious.

[none]

Hi Samothec,

Pleasure to “meet” you.

Here's a brain twister for you:

I like these thoughtful questions and would like to respond. However, let me say a couple of things first. Sometimes I can be on the forum and many times not. I have a lot of things to do and have taken on some more responsibilities recently. That’s why I came to Chatter, to take part in “less serious chit-chat” because I often can’t stay on here for the entire conversation in other threads. However, you do ask an interesting question.

The good thing for me is that Dominick gave such a good answer already. Bookmark that post. All I want to do is add a few thoughts.

In some ways the man you’re describing is no different than the rest of us. We all have temptations that plague us during our life. It’s when we give in to those temptations in our thoughts or in our actions that we sin.

As you have laid out the scenario, what makes the man you describe unique is that it sounds like he actually achieves what we are all called to do and that is live a chaste life. I would even say that he is a hero. His courage and strength in the suffering he endured is heroic – suffering in the sense of having these desires and battling them and not giving in to them. 

He does not do that alone. The only way we are able to be heroic is by cooperating with the grace that God gives us, though it doesn’t have be consciously in those terms. As we do he continues to give us grace – the right amounts in the right ways and times so that, if we choose, we can be great heroes. The exciting thing is that freedom from sin and purity of grace can be achieved here on Earth, though it’s hard. That’s why it’s heroic.

Then what happens in heaven? Heaven is a place of perfect love. The desires that this man feels are lust, perversions of love, and so have no place in Heaven. If he has not been healed of whatever wounds perverted his true love by the time he dies, (and given the scenario I’d be surprised if that’s not the case)  then, again given the scenario you describe and as Dominic says, he would be healed and made perfect so that he could enter into Heaven.

Then you ask is he still the same person? Yes and no. He is still everything that is good and pure about him, and he is freed from the desires that hold him down and he has been fighting against all his life. He is still who he was, but in a perfected and glorious way.

Finally, a small quibble with what Dominic said about the woman (which may or may not have been serious). A similar transfiguration, if you will, happens with marriage. In Heaven there will be no marriage in the way we have today. Instead we will have the perfection of marriage, which is the complete giving of ourselves to God in total and perfect love and vice versa.  Everything else, every other desire – good or not – will pale by comparison to the joy we experience in Heaven. That’s why the original post was off base. It’s like eating mud and then being given real food – such as a nice, thick, juicy steak. We won’t even think of wanting to eat mud again.

Great question. Thanks again for posting it. Now back to the light chatter. :-)

perfect example of a dipshit relishing in death...^
is it any wonder I hate these muther fuckers?

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi ParkingPlaces,

Good to meet you, too. Thanks for keeping it lighthearted.

Where is this temptation that I am always fighting off? How do you define it?

You know I don’t know anything about you (other than that your “personal text” is funny), so me trying to answer these questions would be silly. I can point you to what is called an “Examination of Conscience.” There are many ways to do the examination and here are two examples.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/requests/examconc.asp
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-examination-of-conscience.html

Some of these would not be relevant unless you’re Catholic, but many would. If you are tempted to do any of these things, then that is a temptation. Whether you fight it off or not is up to you.

And why do you think everyone is dealing with it?

It’s a basic fact of our reality. We all have suggestions, proposals, and desires to do things. Some of those are good and some are not. I’d be surprised if you don’t realize that.

Have a good day.

[ParkingPlaces]

SimpleCaveman

Thanks for the list. I so much prefer specifics over generalities. And those lists are not generalities.

They missed "have you ever lusted after a Twinkie" but other than that, pretty complete. (Correction: No they didn't miss that one)

Now obviously if there is a god my being late for church and all (I'm about 50 years late) isn't going to go over too well.

But overall, I am innocent of a good 85% or so of the others, if you include my entire life.

This week I'm doing pretty darned good though.

The lack of human perfection stems from the fact that it is the humans that are not perfect that are defining what perfect is. Which means everything about the concept is a bit biased. Since I don't think a god is involved in the first place, our many abilities to offend, injure, dismiss, manipulate and/or be dorks are rather impressive, and hence any listing of human foibles and cruelties will be a bit long. And certainly, no matter what one believes, a person should be aware of their own list of wrongdoings and try to correct it. Anyone who actually thinks that their POV on the world allows them to slice and dice fellow humans is doing it wrong.

Theists manage to justify it sometimes too. No given way of looking at the world is without fault. As long as people outside of that philosophical stance are allowed to watch and point out flaws.

But I still have a quibble with the word "temptation". You can apply it to gambling and drugs if you want, but hassling me for concocting an acceptable answer to a woman's "Do these pants make my butt look too big" question is a bit too much. Sometimes the instinct to survive is too strong. 

[Samothec]

I rarely look at where a thread is located. Also, this topic isn't really a light one. Although it was approached in a light manner, it (obviously) is one that can quickly get serious. Should it be elsewhere? Not sure, maybe - up to the OP and mods.

I think our "temptations" depend upon how we were raised and how (psychologically) damaged we are. Someone raised well with little to no mental damage isn't going to have the amount of "temptations" others will.

The consensus seems to be that no matter the "temptations" in life, one's actions matter and in Heaven the "temptations" will be wiped away. Somewhat logical and better than some rabid theists' responses.[1]

1.	Although it raises the issue of why can't we get the help we need in this life? And, no, believing in Christ does not do it. I stopped believing in part because I got no help with my anger and fear issues.

[SimpleCaveman]

They missed "have you ever lusted after a Twinkie" but other than that, pretty complete. (Correction: No they didn't miss that one)

Now obviously if there is a god my being late for church and all (I'm about 50 years late) isn't going to go over too well.

No, it’s not obvious. The only thing that doesn’t go over well is lack of sincerity and lack of sorrow. If you have those (sincerity and sorrow), then it doesn’t matter how old you are or what you’ve done. God loves everyone (even those without sincerity or sorrow) and He wants everyone to share in that love with Him.

But overall, I am innocent of a good 85% or so of the others, if you include my entire life.

This week I'm doing pretty darned good though.

Good for you.

I agree with much of what you said in the next two paragraphs. Theists do sometimes justify slicing and dicing and it is even more wrong – in a sense – than when atheists do it.

But I still have a quibble with the word "temptation". You can apply it to gambling and drugs if you want, but hassling me for concocting an acceptable answer to a woman's "Do these pants make my butt look too big" question is a bit too much. Sometimes the instinct to survive is too strong. 

LOL  Did the lists address that situation? That would be hilarious.

[none]

...
...
No, it’s not obvious. The only thing that doesn’t go over well is lack of sincerity and lack of sorrow. If you have those (sincerity and sorrow), then it doesn’t matter how old you are or what you’ve done. God loves everyone (even those without sincerity or sorrow) and He wants everyone to share in that love with Him.
...

who is trying to impress whom?
if god doesn't give a shit about sincerity then what the fuck is the point in being sincere?
who are you trying to impress?

[SimpleCaveman]

I rarely look at where a thread is located.

No worries at all. My main point is that my time is limited (today was good) and I hesitate to get into long, serious conversations. Some take months and I can’t commit to them.

Someone raised well with little to no mental damage isn't going to have the amount of "temptations" others will.

I think you’re correct for certain kinds of temptations.

Although it raises the issue of why can't we get the help we need in this life? And, no, believing in Christ does not do it. I stopped believing in part because I got no help with my anger and fear issues.

I’m very sorry to hear that. I don’t know your situation and am not a spiritual director even if I did, but I can tell you that that He does give me the help I need and with similar issues.

Well, I’m off to a Christmas party. Have a great evening!

[ParkingPlaces]

Now obviously if there is a god my being late for church and all (I'm about 50 years late) isn't going to go over too well.

No, it’s not obvious. The only thing that doesn’t go over well is lack of sincerity and lack of sorrow. If you have those (sincerity and sorrow), then it doesn’t matter how old you are or what you’ve done. God loves everyone (even those without sincerity or sorrow) and He wants everyone to share in that love with Him.

You realize of course that we are told by other christians, fundamentalist mostly, that no matter how wonderful and honest we are, if we haven't done the born again thingy we're toast. As you can imagine, mixed messages on issues of seeming import don't help the christian cause.

But overall, I am innocent of a good 85% or so of the others, if you include my entire life.

This week I'm doing pretty darned good though.

Good for you.

But I still have a quibble with the word "temptation". You can apply it to gambling and drugs if you want, but hassling me for concocting an acceptable answer to a woman's "Do these pants make my butt look too big" question is a bit too much. Sometimes the instinct to survive is too strong. 

LOL  Did the lists address that situation? That would be hilarious.
[/quote]

Nope. I am a wise old man, which means that I know this little fact: When a woman asks a question like that, I've already lost the argument that I didn't even know we were having. In real life, I just roll over and play dead.

[none]

...
No worries at all. My main point is that my time is limited (today was good) and I hesitate to get into long, serious conversations. Some take months and I can’t commit to them.
...

unless you have a different strategy to explain any given topic I am pretty sure it wouldn't take all that long to transcribe the bible.

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi ParkingPlaces,

Happy Gaudete Sunday!

Now obviously if there is a god my being late for church and all (I'm about 50 years late) isn't going to go over too well.

No, it’s not obvious. The only thing that doesn’t go over well is lack of sincerity and lack of sorrow. If you have those (sincerity and sorrow), then it doesn’t matter how old you are or what you’ve done. God loves everyone (even those without sincerity or sorrow) and He wants everyone to share in that love with Him.

You realize of course that we are told by other christians, fundamentalist mostly, that no matter how wonderful and honest we are, if we haven't done the born again thingy we're toast. As you can imagine, mixed messages on issues of seeming import don't help the christian cause.

Thanks for the response. I didn’t realize that there might be a misunderstanding, but I think there is and I apologize. I forget how little people really know about the Catholic Church. Let me explain.

From my understanding of your statement, my response meant that if you start going to church (even this late) and you are sincere about it and you are sorry for the sins of your past, then that would “go over well.” If you do not start going to church, or you do and you are not sincere and/or are not sorry for your sins, then that does not go over well.

They think of it in a more narrow way than we do, but the fundamentalists aren’t wrong about being “born again”. That would be one way to summarize what my response meant.

Now you may be wonderful and honest (let’s say without repenting and turning to God), but is that “enough?” Heaven is an eternity with God. No matter how “wonderful and honest” you are, if you spend your entire life from this day forward denying God, then why would you want to spend eternity with him? Unfortunately, there is only one alternative – spending an eternity without God. Since God is Love, that would mean spending an eternity without love. Since all good things come from God, that would mean spending an eternity without any good thing. If you don’t have love you have coldness of heart. If you don’t have good, then you have evil. Spending an eternity without God means spending that eternity in Hell.

[SimpleCaveman]

Hello none,

Long time no talk to. I hope you’re doing well.

if god doesn't give a s**t about sincerity then what the f**k is the point in being sincere?
who are you trying to impress?

Why do you say that God doesn’t give a s**t about sincerity? You say that in response to my post, so I’m sure there’s something there that tells you. Maybe reading this one would clear it up.

As to your other point, I suppose you could think of it as trying to impress God. When a man falls in love with a woman he does things to try to impress her, to win her over. He does things to show his love for her – he gives her gifts, does things that she asks, etc. God loves us completely and unconditionally and he desires that we love Him in return. When we do love Him, then we want to give Him gifts, do things that He asks, etc.

unless you have a different strategy to explain any given topic I am pretty sure it wouldn't take all that long to transcribe the bible.

People deserve, though, a more thoughtful response to their questions than just regurgitating verses from the Bible. If it were that easy, then you’d all be Catholic. The Word of God – Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition – is the foundation of my faith and belief, but I realize that you put no merit into either one. I can refer to them, if you’d like.

It would be better if people would read the Bible along with the Catechism of the Catholic Church or even the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is in a more accessible question and answer format. It would give people a better, richer understanding of the Word of God.

[none]

Hello none,

Long time no talk to. I hope you’re doing well.

if god doesn't give a s**t about sincerity then what the f**k is the point in being sincere?
who are you trying to impress?

Why do you say that God doesn’t give a s**t about sincerity? You say that in response to my post, so I’m sure there’s something there that tells you. Maybe reading this one would clear it up.

quit being a wise ass.
I don't need your looped thread links to understand that you totally think I made a statement when in fact I made an inquiry.
either answer the question or ignore it but don't waste my time thinking I need instruction from you on anything.
I don't need your instruction I asked for your clarification and that too I don't need, it is not a need based question.
I could completely go off the hook and really become anti-social and really stop giving a fuck about the value of life, but that is a choice.
I don't need to be alive and neither do you.
It is a choice thing, I prefer being alive is all so I extend that preference to everybody else.
maybe that is incorrect thinking but hey it's a place that I feel comfortable starting with in my assessment of pretty much every thing.
so are you going to answer my question? it is your choice.

As to your other point, I suppose you could think of it as trying to impress God. When a man falls in love with a woman he does things to try to impress her, to win her over. He does things to show his love for her – he gives her gifts, does things that she asks, etc. God loves us completely and unconditionally and he desires that we love Him in return. When we do love Him, then we want to give Him gifts, do things that He asks, etc.

I suppose I could think of a lot of things, like um... god.
gee that is easy I just think of god and blam god exists.
then you go off on some tangent about men and women.
can you think of a woman?
what is she like?
is she like the human beings that you observe on a daily basis?
would she like a gift?
then give her a gift and leave the observable women alone.
but, you weren't talking about women or men.. you were talking about god.
you think we all should give god gifts...
cool, maybe human sacrifice?
that would be awesome, don't you agree?
god love gifts it says so right in the bible.
gee god lives so well in the bible lets take god out of the bible and make god real.
wow cool now god is real, because we took god out of the bible.
wow this is awesome, god is real, and we don't need the bible anymore.
think about it...

unless you have a different strategy to explain any given topic I am pretty sure it wouldn't take all that long to transcribe the bible.

People deserve, though, a more thoughtful response to their questions than just regurgitating verses from the Bible. If it were that easy, then you’d all be Catholic. The Word of God – Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition – is the foundation of my faith and belief, but I realize that you put no merit into either one. I can refer to them, if you’d like.

It would be better if people would read the Bible along with the Catechism of the Catholic Church or even the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is in a more accessible question and answer format. It would give people a better, richer understanding of the Word of God.

yeah people need instruction.
I get it.
don't worry I figured that out before you had to say it.
I hope you are doing well.
Long time no talk to...

[ParkingPlaces]

Now you may be wonderful and honest (let’s say without repenting and turning to God), but is that “enough?” Heaven is an eternity with God. No matter how “wonderful and honest” you are, if you spend your entire life from this day forward denying God, then why would you want to spend eternity with him? Unfortunately, there is only one alternative – spending an eternity without God. Since God is Love, that would mean spending an eternity without love. Since all good things come from God, that would mean spending an eternity without any good thing. If you don’t have love you have coldness of heart. If you don’t have good, then you have evil. Spending an eternity without God means spending that eternity in Hell.

You do realize that all of the above is meaningless to me since I have no reason to even suspect that there is a god. I am enjoying the conversation, but I want to make it clear that any time that you intimate that there is a god, I will read those words while shaking my head. That your view is slightly different from Pat Robertson's is an accident of history rather than a refinement of biblical interpretation.

If your god wants me to be in his fold, he needs to do much more than pass his word down via old books, bad translations, undifferentiated and unagreed upon truths/metaphors/analogies, etc. At least some bibles have the words of jesus in red. Why can't you guys put the parts that are supposed to be literal in yet another color. And those that are analogies in another. Could it be because you don't agree enough, perhaps even within religions, to make that happen?

I don't need either a god or a devil to explain the good, the bad and the ugly in this world. Physical realities are quite adequate. Some monkeys throw poo, others don't. Some dogs chew up slippers, others do not. How many of them blame the monkey or dog devil?

There is no inherent goodness in people. There are actions interpreted as good by many of us. And a feedback loop exists that lets us learn from and decide for ourselves about what good things we want to do and be. And any given society, if able to avoid dope slapping itself, can build on the good and push away the bad via several mechanisms. Including stories. And that is what the bible is. A story that tells what is good and bad, not based on words from a god, but based upon experience. Your god was tossed in as an incentive, and I've no doubt many of the original authors believed in such a character as they came up with stories that they thought helped get their point across. But it is just stories.

The problem isn't that we have religion, but what people oft times do with it. You guys and the protestants were blowing each other up over in Ireland when I was stationed in England in the early 70's. Because religion, combined with history and oppression and anger and short tempers were all it took to justify bodies. And what was the source of the original oppression? Religion.

Are you proud that Pope Urban II, with his position threatened by church and other politics, rallies people around the idea of returning Jerusalem to christian rule. That he and subsequent popes sent army after army to the middle east and caused and suffered multiple deaths in the name of your god? Do you think the problems then might have led to the problems now?

You think that your god chose certain people in a certain part of the middle east (The only lpart without oil. Brilliant), and that your belief system arose from that via Jesus and Paul.

I don't buy it.

So you can tell me how god affects your life. But you can't tell me how he affects mine. Because real or not, he doesn't.

If he is real, he knows why I doubt and apparently he doesn't care, because he's the powerful one and he hasn't done a thing to make me suspect that he exists.

If he doesn't exist, then the last fifty years of my life have been spot-on accurate. And as of today, I have no reason to think otherwise.

I just wanted to make it clear that when you tell me all those lovely things about your god they have absolutely no effect on me. They don't touch one emotion. I just shake my head. I don't dispute your right to say them. Just don't imagine that you are honing in on my soul and about to convert me. Words won't do it. If he is real, I suggest you tell him to come have a face to face with me. Nothing else will work.

By the way, I did a piss-poor job of quoting in my last post in this thread. Don't know how it happened. As a mod I could go back and fix it but I prefer the embarrassment. I learn better that way. Sorry about that.

[SimpleCaveman]

Good Morning ParkingPlaces,

I just wanted to make it clear that when you tell me all those lovely things about your god they have absolutely no effect on me. They don't touch one emotion. I just shake my head. I don't dispute your right to say them. Just don't imagine that you are honing in on my soul and about to convert me. Words won't do it.

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, I understand. My purpose here is not to convert anyone. I realize very well that this is a poor medium for real communication.

My purpose is two-fold. First to explain, as best I can, the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have yet to run into a person on the forum that does not believe and that has a good understanding of those teachings. It’s like a creationist who rails against evolution but doesn’t know the science. I would love to see someone who truly understands the teachings of the Catholic Church and still chooses not to believe. That person I would seriously listen to.

The second is to learn more about those teachings myself. In the four years (off and on) that I’ve been on the forum I have learned an amazing amount as I do the research to answer the questions thoughtfully, honestly and accurately. I can tell you that in all that time not one thing has shaken my faith. Instead everything that I have learned has fit together like a KenKen puzzle. The mystery of life is like a lock and the Church is the key.