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Offline Nick

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Mormonism not a cult
« on: October 18, 2012, 02:32:09 PM »
Hey, we can all relax now.  Billy Graham has taken Mormonism off his web site of cults.  After his meeting with Romney a week ago, Billy has decided this might be his last election and wants to get the right kind of guy into the White House.  Now Mormons must be just like other Christians.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »
Excellent news. I wonder what Romney had to promise him for his support?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 02:43:30 PM »
My first impulse is to deride and admonish him for changing his mind solely to facilitate getting a repub into the WH. Does he have no convictions?

But, upon reflection, maybe his meeting with Romney provided him with the necessary evidence to change his mind for a more altruistic purpose.

Hey, it could happen.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2012, 02:44:39 PM »
Billy Graham has succumbed to Satan.

Mormons are xians in the same way muslims are xians or the same way xians are jews.

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Offline Nick

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »
Billy will probably be getting a very special pair of undies for Christmas. ;)
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »
He'll be welcome on the Mormon planet for sure!

-Nam
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 07:04:19 AM »
Quote from: screwtape on October 18, 2012, 02:44:39 PM

Mormons are xians in the same way muslims are xians or the same way xians are jews.

I disagree.They accept the divinity of Christ; AFAIAC that makes them Christians. A weirdly mutated form of Christianity, but not quite enough to diverge from the minimum requirement. Sort of how the food laws require how something has to be at least 10% juice to be called juice.

I guess the best analogy would be the Jews for Jesus, they are Christian...and Jewish but more Christian.


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Most theist/atheist arguments tend to boil down to this: Theists quote scriptures as if they were facts and atheists cite facts as if they were facts.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 08:12:25 AM »
Quote from: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 07:04:19 AM
I disagree.They accept the divinity of Christ; AFAIAC that makes them Christians.

If that's your criterion, then yeah. 

But I see it as xianity was based on and grew from judaism.  It added to the mythology with a second collection of booklets and modified the earlier theology.  Islam did the same with xianity.  From my perspective, joe smith - who mormons see as only slightly less important than jesus H - did the same thing.  In my book, they aint xians. 
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »
They're still in the "diverging from" stage, so I don't think they can be considered a different religion than Christianity.  As far as I know, they didn't reinterpret the basic message of Jesus Christ, which is the key consideration.  Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 11:40:17 AM »
Quote from: jaimehlers on October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 AM
Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Where did jesus H mention Kolob?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 11:43:57 AM »
And you do realize that the garden of Eden is in Gallitan, Mo.  Mormons buy up land there whenever it becomes available.  Take trips to be on the land and feel the holiness of it.  Wonder what old Billy Graham thinks of that.  I live about 40 miles from there.  Believe me...Gallitan is no Eden. ;)

PS - There are several guys there named Adam...makes you wonder!!!??? :o
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 11:54:04 AM »
Quote from: screwtape on October 19, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: jaimehlers on October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 AM
Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Where did jesus H mention Kolob?

That Apocrypha...fan fiction essentially...was added isn't the issue at hand. It is the definition of Christianity. There are gob and gobs and gobs of variation of Christianity, from the "personal relationship with Christ" to "the bible is literally true" to "The bible is a document inspired by God, but should be interpreted through the Holy Father, who infallible" (therefore the Pope is greater than the Bible...but good luck getting Catholics to directly admit that) to the Jesus freak Hippies.....What can qualify as a belief that allows all of them to be Christians....but would exclude people who wouldn't consider themselves Christians, such as Islamics and Jews.

My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 12:05:13 PM »
Quote from: jaimehlers on October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 AM
They're still in the "diverging from" stage, so I don't think they can be considered a different religion than Christianity.  As far as I know, they didn't reinterpret the basic message of Jesus Christ, which is the key consideration.  Islam, for example, did reinterpret things and demoted Jesus to a mere prophet, but Mormonism did not.

Have you read The Book of Mormon? I have.

What does Kolob (I believe) have to do with Jesus?

Did you know Jesus came to the US before anywhere else? Native American Indians are the descendants of the True people of Israel, oh, and they were white people.

Did you know: only white people get into heaven?

Also, did you know that all Churches everywhere are run by Satan? All of them.

What does some alien planet, and magic underwear have to do with Jesus?

The Book of Mormon is a racist, sexist, and nutty book written by a racist, a sexist, and a nut. And, everything in it is either those things or the "wisdom" (like much of the Bible) plaigerized from something or some else.

It's mainly a book against black people and Catholics.

It's a book of hate.

-Nam
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2012, 12:29:08 PM »
Gee, I hope Romney did not get any on him last night when he sat next to the Catholic Cardinal at the Smith Dinner in New York.

They did DNA on the Indians that the Mormons said were part of one early missing tribes of Israel.  No match.  Still they chug on.

Did Mitt happen to mention that Satan thing to Billy Graham the other night?
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »
I doubt it.

-Nam
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 01:46:15 PM »
Quote from: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

I got that the first time around.  I'm not saying your defintion is wrong.  I just don't agree with it.  That may be because I am prejudiced against mormons and am gleeful at the prospect of calling them a cult.  Though, I consider there to be no difference between a religion and a cult, it is an unnecessary excuse. 

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 02:01:20 PM »
Quote from: screwtape on October 19, 2012, 01:46:15 PM
Quote from: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
My personal opinion is the acceptance of the divinity of Christ is the one common thread throughout all of these...and thus Mormonism gets in.

I got that the first time around.  I'm not saying your defintion is wrong.  I just don't agree with it.  That may be because I am prejudiced against mormons and am gleeful at the prospect of calling them a cult.  Though, I consider there to be no difference between a religion and a cult, it is an unnecessary excuse.

Okay, so we are in disagreement. What is your definition of Christianity? I was making my case for my definition, I just want to see you explicitly state yours and give your case for that definition. After all, part of the purpose of conversing is to meet someone with, to use a metaphor, better kung fu than you, and copy them. Not just agreement and/or arguement.

I understand that sometimes I am cockey, but I have been shown wrong on a lot...a LOT..of occasions, and when that happens, I learn to change.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 02:03:13 PM »
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 02:14:36 PM »
Quote from: Nick on October 19, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.

I don't agree.  I think cultism is a very specific phenomenon that applies only to a small subset of religions.

Probably the best piece I've ever read on this is Agent Orange's "Cult Test".  He gives a list of one hundred traits -- the more traits a particular group has, the more likely it is that you're looking at a cult.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
(Be warned in advance that it's a very long read.  Terry is very verbose.)

So if you apply the checklist to, say, Toastmasters, you might get three or four characteristics at most, so you conclude that Toastmasters is not a cult.  Apply it to the Catholic Church, and you'll get more, but still probably not enough to call Catholicism a cult.  Apply the checklist to Scientology, and it's easy to see that Scientology is a cult.  (Not that I think that you or anyone else here at WWGHA would have ever had any doubts about that, of course.)
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 02:59:12 PM »
I don't think Mormonism is a cult, I think it's a racist, sexist, bigoted institution.

-Nam
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 03:29:41 PM »
Quote from: Nick on October 19, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
All religions are cults.  It is just that some become accepted by society.

The difference between a religion and a cult is the size of their voting lobby
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 09:09:40 PM »
Quote from: Nam on October 19, 2012, 02:59:12 PM
The Book of Mormon is a racist, sexist, and nutty book written by a racist, a sexist, and a nut.

Quote from: Nam on October 19, 2012, 02:59:12 PM
I don't think Mormonism is a cult, I think it's a racist, sexist, bigoted institution.

You forgot to mention the nuts...  ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 09:11:49 PM by Backspace »
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 10:48:18 PM »
The squrriels ate 'em.

-Nam
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2012, 07:07:35 AM »
Christianity is a cult.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 10:15:28 AM »
Quote from: Hatter23 on October 19, 2012, 02:01:20 PM
Okay, so we are in disagreement. What is your definition of Christianity? I was making my case for my definition, I just want to see you explicitly state yours and give your case for that definition. After all, part of the purpose of conversing is to meet someone with, to use a metaphor, better kung fu than you, and copy them. Not just agreement and/or arguement.

Okay.  I would say divinity of jesus H is part of it.  But just having that particular belief does not make one a xian, I think.  The extra beliefs on top of that matter.  If believed jesus H was god/son of god, but also that Abraham, Krishna, Mohammed, joe smith and L Ron Hubbard were also all god/ sons of god, could you still call me a xian?  How about if I also believed in reincarnation?  I'd say no.  All that other stuff negates the title of xian. 

In xianity - or any religious, political, philosophical system - it is not only important to believe certain things to hold the title.  It is also important to not believe other things.  If you call yourself a xian, there are certain things you cannot believe.  You cannot believe that the gods of the hindu pantheon are actual gods or are benevolent.  You cannot believe Satan is equally powerful as yhwh.  You cannot believe Mary was an alien from Alpha Centauri.  You cannot believe yhwh corrected the teaching of jesus H through Mohammed.

I know mormonism is not as wildly divergent as calling L Ron Hubbard a messiah.  But I think it is divergent enough to say, it ain't xian.  On a scale of xianity, I would illustrate thusly:

judaism........................................................islam............lds.............xianity

what is illustrated are the 3 religions' relative distance to xianity, not each other.  I think lds is closer than the other two, but I would still say it's not xian.  I know some things about mormonism, and I've read parts of the book of mormon.  But I would not say I am expert enough in it to argue the point exhaustively. 

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Offline jetson

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 03:47:00 PM »
I think we also need to consider that Joseph Smith, the racist bigot who invented Mormonism, has tried to re-write history around what many Christians believe is the history of Jesus, and the native Americans.  It is beyond laughable at how terribly void of factual information this cult actually is, and spectacularly unbelievable that modern humans would buy it as truth.

And now, we could see an actual President who thinks it's real.  It is absolutely the worst pretend version of christianity I have ever seen.

And to those who suppor the GOP - how can you sit back and let such a thing enter the office of the President of the United States of America?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 04:19:57 PM »
Moronism seems to me be be one big a$$ ponsi scheme.  10% of your money is required along with missions and on and on.  The ones at the top get rich with no accounting.  They have their fingers in all kind of investments and companies.  You saw how they tried to influence voting in California with the gay marriage thing.  If Romney gets in you have to wonder what influences the higher ups in the Mormon Church will getting terms of increasing the wealth of the church.  I guess it is who you know in this case.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 06:51:48 PM »
Jetson,

Anything is better, in their mind, than a left-wing fascist dictating communist liberal.

They are the party of capitulators, and they love to be fucked in the ass.

-Nam
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Offline jetson

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Re: Mormonism not a cult
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 06:53:14 PM »
Quote from: Nam on October 21, 2012, 06:51:48 PM
Jetson,

Anything is better, in their mind, than a left-wing fascist dictating communist liberal.

They are the party of capitulators, and they love to be fucked in the ass.

-Nam

Yeah, fuck the country, as long as they don't have to vote for a democrat. 
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