Help..

[screwtape]

Not sure how to approach this...I need help! I just recently moved to N.C. with my 14 yr old daughter..We are from N.Y.

Being from the north, especially NY (city?), is enough for them.  I'd not broadcast that, but I wouldn't lie.  Same with the atheist stuff.

I would however, get armed.  To the teeth.  Look into a concealed carry permit and get one if it is legal there.  It's the south, so I assume it comes automatically with a driver's permit.  So get that and take as many gun training courses you can afford.  I say with with absolute seriousness.

You might also consider a security system with cameras.  They are pretty cheap nowadays.

Also, find a sympathetic lawyer now.  You probably won't need one, but better to have one lined up and not need one, than need one and not have one.

You might find this book fun.  Just don't read it in public down there. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/14/1142774/-Book-review-Chuck-Thompson-s-Better-Off-Without-Em-A-Northern-Manifesto-for-Southern-Secession

Man.  I fucking hate the south.

[pianodwarf]

I would however, get armed.  To the teeth.  Look into a concealed carry permit and get one if it is legal there.  It's the south, so I assume it comes automatically with a driver's permit.  So get that and take as many gun training courses you can afford.  I say with with absolute seriousness.

Since you're new here, I'd also add that screwtape is not a huge fan of firearms, so if he's recommending you arm yourself, it's an indication of how serious he thinks the situation is.

Carry is, as screwtape surmises, lawful in North Carolina.  Permit information can be found here:
http://www.usacarry.com/north_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

You might also consider a security system with cameras.  They are pretty cheap nowadays.

True.  Web-based interfaces and even live feeds over the web are common these days.  I've considered them myself, but it hasn't been a high priority for me due to my circumstances.

Also, find a sympathetic lawyer now.  You probably won't need one, but better to have one lined up and not need one, than need one and not have one.

If you do follow this advice, be sure to screen carefully.  I would hate to see you get a lawyer who's secretly a bible-banger and works to get you thrown under a bus instead of actually representing you.

Man.  I fucking hate the south.

So much beautiful scenery and nice weather and everything soiled by all that religion.  It's a shame.

[screwtape]

Since you're new here, I'd also add that screwtape is not a huge fan of firearms, so if he's recommending you arm yourself, it's an indication of how serious he thinks the situation is.

I actually love guns.  I just don't trust anyone else with them. 

I think every atheist should be armed to the hilt.  When the shit hits the fan, you know the fundies will be looking for you.  I'm deliquent on that bit of preparation, myself. 

[pianodwarf]

I actually love guns.  I just don't trust anyone else with them.

Heh.  I know that feeling.  Especially when I'm at the firing range and getting swept.  Grrr.

I think every atheist should be armed to the hilt.  When the shit hits the fan, you know the fundies will be looking for you.  I'm deliquent on that bit of preparation, myself.

It's hard to make it a priority, with the cost and everything.  I have a fairly good collection, but I need to add a rifle at some point.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

Madeline, I hate to advise anyone to lie, especially since no one should have to, but concealing your "orientation" may be the better choice if, as you say, you have weak points that can be exploited.  By way of comparison, being an atheist today is kind of like being gay in the Seventies, or black in the Fifties.  As far as civil rights are concerned, we have a long way to go in this country regarding religious freedom and tolerance.  As much as it pains me to say it, it sounds to me like you (like most people) may need to compromise your principles somewhat to ensure your safety.

Do what you need to do to protect yourself and your family.  Let those of us for whom it is safe to be "out", to be out and work on changing public perception in this department.  We won't hold it against you.  *g*

If you're feeling up to it, you might want to call in to the podcast show "The Atheist Experience".  AE has a rotating set of hosts -- the best one I think you could talk to is Matt Dillahunty, who has a lot to say about this subject and who has addressed it more than once.  His thoughts on the matter are sensible.

[Traveler]

I grew up in Maryland, spent 25 years in New England, five traveling the country, and am now back in Maryland. Massachusetts and New Hampshire are both very, very tolerant. I never had to hide my atheism. In my engineering group we had openly gay, lesbian and transexuals. No one blinked an eye. There was never any overt prayer. Of course there were religious nuts too, but they didn't hold sway over the place. Maryland is a mixture. Southern, bible belt, and certain midwestern states I've felt like an alien. California is very liberal and tolerant. Portland, OR too. The area outside Spokane, WA, where I spent two years, was an odd mixture of christian, don't-care, native american-ish, and pagan.

[madeline]

Wow..and Thank You everybody for your honest and thoughtful replies. I knew that moving here was going to pose some issues for me being as open as I am about my atheism but didn't think that it would trickle down to my daughter.

I already changed my profile on fb...deleting my religious views, taking off my favorite Hitchens and Harris quotes and getting rid of any old post where I had heated debates with some of my Christian friend. I suppose I thought that might just be enough somehow.

Within days of being here I was approached numerous times by people in my apartment complex as to which church I might be attending, fortunately I just smiled and stated that I would be looking for the nearest Methodist church asap. That seemed to appease the curious.

As to the issue with my daughter we have spoken at length regarding how she would like to handle the situation and she expressed that she is indeed afraid of how people will perceive her. She does request that I keep my lack of religious convictions to myself especially with her new softball team. I will say that this makes me so incredibly sad as she is very open minded regarding the many social issues we now face living in America.

Arming myself never really occurred to me, hell most days I forget to lock my doors! I suppose I will have to reevaluate how I view our safety. I am not afraid for myself but I suppose I should be for her.

Its quite the culture shock for me to have to be so silent regarding my views especially when my daughter comes home from school stating she learned about Noah's Ark in Social Studies. WTF? Really?! When the teacher asked who believed the Bible was the word of God she was stunned that everybody raised their hand...

I so appreciate the time everyone took to reply to me. I'm so glad I finally posted after lurking for so long.

[pianodwarf]

Its quite the culture shock for me to have to be so silent regarding my views especially when my daughter comes home from school stating she learned about Noah's Ark in Social Studies. WTF? Really?! When the teacher asked who believed the Bible was the word of God she was stunned that everybody raised their hand...

You should probably talk to the Freedom From Religion Foundation about this if it's happening in a public school.  Long-standing precedent indicates that this kind of thing is unconstitutional.  The FFRF is very active in watchdogging church/state violations like this one, and they almost always win.  It may be possible for them to pursue this matter without disclosing your identity; they are sometimes able to do that.  And if they're not, they'll certainly give you the option of backing out of the complaint if you wish to.

[madeline]

Thanks pianodwarf, I will keep that in mind if it appears that she is being force fed that garbage regularly. I will say that I was appalled and did spend some time beating myself up for the decision to move here but that serves no purpose, so forward I go into the unknown!

[Nam]

The "South" has a much higher percentage of adherents to religion, especially evangelicals.

You have part of this right. Now, I wonder which part one would think that is?

They exercise their religion at every opportunity.

Evidence? Movies and TV, and fundamentalists do not count as evidence. If it did then I could point to a bevy of movies, tv shows, and fundamentalists who do not live in the South as evidence that they are as rampant everywhere else not in the south.

While I can put up with a prayer here and there, I cannot put up with mixing religion into the laws of the land. The "South" is apt to do exactly that. This is why it would take something much greater for me to move "south".

Evidence that those not from the south isn't doing the same thing?

You do have support. There will be atheists around you, but they dare not speak their lack of belief.

Only the cowards.

Imagine you are a homosexual in 1955 -- you will have to carefully feel under the table to determine if you have found someone like yourself. A careful glance or wink at an opportune moment is what it will take to reveal others like you who are otherwise putting up appearances in order to survive.

Biggest bullshit I've read in a long time. How did us atheist southerners ever survive?!?!

As Poseidon said, a Unitarian Universalist church is a good option. I have considered going to one. My local UU has an entire evening devoted to doubters and skeptics (which is redundant as it seems most Unitarians are). Apparently they discuss things like logic, morality and spirituality. In fact, they would appear to be a very nice shield for you and your daughter to carry whenever things begin to veer into Christianity. To identify yourself publicly as an atheist can make you a target of ridicule or vandalism. To identify as Unitarian would likely confuse them -- they probably have little idea what it is.

Well, apparently they do since it's obviously 1955 and one can compare them to gay people.

Whenever there is a call for a religious rally in Washington DC, of any kind, we can count on several hundred church buses from North Carolina and South Carolina (NC is bigger). An anti-abortion rally in DC can cause NC population to drop by 200,000. They don't just drive their buses in and drop-off their membership, no, those buses enter DC while rocking back-and-forth to the members singing and moving, chanting, etc. These people mean business.

And who makes up the rest of the crowd of, I assume, 100's of thousand/million or so?

So, yeah Nam, the "South" is a lot more religious and doesn't much put up well with people who aren't.

Evidence?

Maybe your part of the "South" is better or maybe you are just accustomed to it. If you were to live in the "North", you would immediately see and feel the difference. When it comes to sporting events in the "South", I fully expect "Contact Christianity" to be part of the game.

I would never live in a place I am not comfortable in. Nor, if I had children, let them live there. If the south is so much like 1955, as you say, then you'd actually be telling her to catch the bus back out of town[1]

-Nam

1.	yes, I know it was about homosexuality but what was New England like toward homosexuals in 1955, I wonder?

[screwtape]

...my daughter comes home from school stating she learned about Noah's Ark in Social Studies. WTF? Really?! When the teacher asked who believed the Bible was the word of God she was stunned that everybody raised their hand...

^that right there is some bullshit and it is completely illegal.  definitely find that lawyer right after you up-armor yourself.

Did I mention I fucking hate the south?

[madeline]

Yeah screwtape you did! I suppose I should have posted before I moved not after. 

[Nam]

The Bible belt defies your point.

No, it doesn't. It's just a term some midwesterner coined about 100 years ago. It doesn't just encompass the south but part of New England (the edge) and parts of the midwest, one could say (the Dakotas). The west has a heavy Mormon population, and the North East a heavy Catholic population. If I moved to either one, I'd feel that Catholicism or Mormonism was the bevy of things in those areas. As if I didn't feel the pressures that those religions would have on me. It's the same thing.

Yes, religion is taken seriously in the south but how many atheists have died because of it? Comparing atheism to that of homosexuality (as Chronos did) in the 50's is ridiculous. Homosexuals can actually die based on being a homosexual (anywhere). How many atheists, in the south, recently, have died because they are atheists? Or, in the last 50 years? (Not speaking about Communism)

So, Chronos using homosexuality as a metaphor or analogy, whatever, was not right. I know, it's the "hush-hush" effect, right? Please...

No one ever said that there is no prejudice elsewhere.

No but the implication is that it's more rampant in the south than anywhere else in the US. If that were true, I wonder how Obama picked up 3 southern states in 2008? It wasn't just the black vote.

But whatever you have imagined you might feel if you moved to New England, it would certainly not be anything like getting a large dose of southern "religious" hospitality for someone who has never lived here.

I think i'd get a heavy dose of Catholicism. Is that better?

This is a distinct issue that certainly does have a geographic aspect to its veracity.

I've been in Texas for close to 40 years, and I moved to Connecticut for about a year back in 2000.  So I got to experience New England, and I would have loved to find a way to stay there.  The higher cost of living is offset by the more diverse attitudes towards religions, IMO.

When it comes to religious politicians in the news, I find there are more non-Southerners than there are southerners viewed. That could be an offset...

-Nam

[Chronos]

...my daughter comes home from school stating she learned about Noah's Ark in Social Studies. WTF? Really?! When the teacher asked who believed the Bible was the word of God she was stunned that everybody raised their hand...

^that right there is some bullshit and it is completely illegal.  definitely find that lawyer right after you up-armor yourself.

If you adorned your car with a rebel flag and a NRA sticker, plus some other gun sticker ... you probably can avoid a lot of other questions ...

Did I mention I fucking hate the south?

It's a great place to visit. When you are a tourist they don't care what religion your money is.

[Chronos]

Maryland is a mixture.

Yes, it is.

I have a lot of clients who are clergy, which is all happenstance. I did not go looking for them. I have quite a few black baptist ministers, most of which are in Baltimore, and some suburban baptist ministers who are obviously more progressive and liberal than the black urban ministers. I also have some Catholic clergy, but that goes without saying considering that Maryland is, essentially, a Catholic state.

When asked by the black urban ministers if I attend church, I tell them no. They don't usually ask any further questions and I don't offer any further explanations. I have a Korean Christian minister try to get me to attend her church, but I don't speak Korean and that's all they speak at her church, obviously. I have had a particular client, a Jehovah's Witness, who tried to convert my office until my receptionist told her that everyone in the office is an atheist.

Over the phone, I often get a salutation of God Bless, Have a Blessed Day, etc., and I just say in kind "and to you."

Of course, I have a lot of Jewish clients, too. They push nothing.

[Mr. Blackwell]

I had no idea it was that bad in the south. I've lived here my whole life...exept for about 8 months up in Massachusetts.

I'm kinda of scared now, should I think about moving?

[Schizoid]

Discretion is the better part of valor.

I am an atheist, but a fairly covert one since I actually work for a religious homeless shelter.  In a much younger life I was a practicing Christian and a knowledgeable one so I know the Bible and can talk the lingo.  I often have to hold my tongue when I might not like to, but it is ultimately for the best and I respect most of the people with whom I work.

I have a 21 year old goddaughter who is like a daughter to me.  I am her representative payee for SSI and she lives a couple of blocks from me.  She has problems and I am really the only one she has here to help her through them who is close to her and who she loves and respects.  She really has no friends, has trouble making friends, and usually ends up attracting total losers who hurt her and her life.  She knows I am an atheist and we have talked about it and she agrees with much, but she still is young and finding her way.  I told her that a good place for her to go to meet people her age who were not getting into trouble and would not lead her into trouble would be a church.  I told her she could go for the social aspects and not have to embrace the religious ones.  It is more important now for her to get friends and get on the right path (not in a religious sense).

So I called what I knew to be a large church with lots of young people, with a "come as you are" philosophy.  I talked with the receptionist to get an idea of whom to talk with that would be the best for finding a direction to go.  I explained about my goddaughter and her problems and her needs.  The woman then asked about me and where I went.  I was honest and told her I was an atheist, because after all, this was about my goddaughter and the help she needed, not me.  She told me about a youth pastor but said he was in a meeting.  She took my name and phone number and said he would call me.

I actually expected to hear from him later that day, or the next day.  A week later he still had not called.  I mentioned this to others, including a coworker who is a devout Christian but goes to a tiny church in another town (he knows I'm an atheist yet finds it all fascinating).  It was their conclusion that I did not hear back from the pastor because I had told the receptionist that I was an atheist.  Apparently it did not matter that is was my goddaughter who needed help.  What I learned was that it would have been better if I had just kept my mouth shut about being an atheist.

In conclusion I would like to tell about when I was stopped by a State Trooper who was lurking a the bottom of a hill on a state highway to catch speeders.  It had been my experience that when you are stopped by a State Trooper to save your breath, you've got a ticket.

The Trooper asked me, "Did you know you were speeding?"  My answer was, "No, because my speedometer was broken".  He said, "Nooooo, you shouldn't have told me that because it's another citation".

He then left for that long wait you have before you know the cop is going to come back and give you a ticket.  When the State Trooper came back he said to me, "You know, I always tell my kids that they can know the truth, but they don't have to tell all of it".  He then gave me a warning ticket and all these years later I am still amazed.  (I did fail to tell him that my speedometer had been broken for many months).

So you can know the whole truth, but you don't have to tell all of it.  I am not an evangelistic atheist and I have learned and am still learning that sometimes it's better to be discrete about it and keep my thoughts and opinions to myself especially when it is not helpful or when someone else (like my goddaughter) suffers the consequences of my choices.

Life is not fair, such is life.

[madeline]

Thanks for the post Schizoid..I hope your Goddaughter is doing better.

I am sincerely sorry if my post offended anyone, that was not my intent. 

[Kimberly]

I live in the south, Tennessee to be exact. I've been an atheist for a little over 5 years give or take some time being agnostic. I've lived here nearly my entire life. I honestly thought all atheist were the antichrist[1]. So when I deconverted I felt others would see me in a similar light. I couldn't tell anyone my deep dark secret, for all the reasons listed in this thread. The only other atheists I knew IRL were my brother and my significant other.

Well my significant other decides he wants to come out of the atheist closet. (At this time I was still agnostic.) The first people to turn ugly were his family and family friends. But they didn't turn on him, no they turned on me. Some how him deconverting had to be my fault. We had just started dating so it was obviously me who took him away from god! I was a little taken aback by this. Nevertheless he continue spreading his newly found lack of religion. His family and friends backed off me after he told them all he deconverted in the army before ever meeting me.

The cool thing about it was the more people he told the more atheist he met. I honestly had no idea there were so many non believers in this area. I guess I like to think I'm special, ahead of the curve, or whatever but truth be told there are more atheist around the south than any of us probably imagine. I found out my best friend was an agnostic on accident. She never revealed it to me, probably for the reasons I never revealed it to her.

I'm starting to realize that most people are just scared. They are just as afraid of discussing atheism in the south as I am. But it's not gonna get better if we are afraid of the bigotry. They aren't going to practice their own tolerance if we let them alienate and isolate us. I watched a Richard Dawkins video on Ted and it really got me thinking. I think what the south needs is more people actively opening their "closet doors". I'm sure there are extreme cases where someone might burn a cross in your lawn but I doubt it's as likely as some of us would have us all to believe.

I think we should all be careful of creating hyperbole. No one can tell another what to do in regards to how open they are about their atheism. IMO there is a time and a place. We should all be rational enough to detect the high risk times and avoid them. But I don't think we should tell each other to run and hide as if the Christian mobs are going to come around eating our babies. That's our job.

1.	An exaggeration but more or less accurate.

[madeline]

Kimberly, I do believe that you are right when you say the more people you tell the more atheist you meet. At least that was true when I lived in N.Y. Don't get me wrong my views were not always well received and I did lose some friends over my heathen view points. I do also agree that isolation is not the remedy, in fact it may just perpetuate the discrimination. I am torn between my deep conviction and my daughters well being. Fortunately she is rapidly approaching an age where my views on this matter should not play a huge role in her life. Until that time I will try to be respectful of her wishes. I am hopeful that soon I will be able to live my life once again as an open atheist. I hate the closet!

[Nam]

Schizoid,

It sounds like the receptionist was being a dick, and I doubt she even called the pastor, who would've been happy not only to help your goddaughter but also help her and you "see the light".

-Nam

[Kimberly]

madeline,

I can understand your concerns. My oldest daughter is 8. I had a similar problem with our school it was either Kindergarten or first grade, I forget. But long story short the teacher was not presenting a secular friendly Christmas lesson plan. I was really upset about it so I emailed the teacher, the principal, and the superintendent a modified lesson plan I created for her (along with my thorough complaint of course.). I was literally terrified of the response I thought I was going to get.   I was terrified my daughter would ostracized. I was afraid the PTA would contact me and preach at me. Or that I'd get all emotional and have to call the ACLU over this teacher refusing to modify her lesson plan. I honestly had no idea what to expect but I feared the worse. Any ways, my point is, I was worried about the education my daughter was receiving so my fears could not prevent me from taking action.

You know what happened? The teacher wrote me an apology. She explained that this was her first year teaching and she wasn't aware of the flaws in her lesson plan. She embarrassed the recommendations I made and created her own new lesson plan. It was wonderful. The irony of it all is the kids never got to see either lesson plans. School was called off due to snow so it was a big to do about nothing. But the teacher learned a lesson about how to create a secular lesson plan. And I learned that my child's education means more to me that my perceived fears.

I suspect this experience is the norm and those you hear on the news are the exception.

[pianodwarf]

I suspect this experience is the norm and those you hear on the news are the exception.

I don't know for sure whether it's the norm or not, but it's definitely common.  I'm a member of the FFRF, and one section of "Freethought Today" discusses the outcome of various complaint letters that they send to various people who are violating the First Amendment in ways like this.  Very often, the response is something like, "That didn't even occur to me... you're right.  I'll change it."  Just goes to show how widespread Christian privilege is in this country.

[Kimberly]

That's good to know PD. Thanks for sharing.

This particular teacher didn't know much about any religion, including her own. You would think they would have to attend some kinda seminar or class on secularism before they are allowed to create a lesson plan centered around theology. Oh well, maybe in due time.

[Nam]

pianodwarf,

This country is primarily Christian. I think for most Christians it's not even a second thought to them that the vast majority of people around them aren't Christian like them. So, when a teacher, who's a Christian, makes out such plans, especially in a highly populated area of Christians, they may not think that everyone in their class is not a Christian. Where I grew up, and went toschool, it was like that. The only exceptions usually made were for foreigners. The way it was. Probably still is. Not saying it's right; I just don't think the average Christian thinks about these things.

-Nam

[pianodwarf]

pianodwarf,

This country is primarily Christian. I think for most Christians it's not even a second thought to them that the vast majority of people around them aren't Christian like them. So, when a teacher, who's a Christian, makes out such plans, especially in a highly populated area of Christians, they may not think that everyone in their class is not a Christian. Where I grew up, and went toschool, it was like that. The only exceptions usually made were for foreigners. The way it was. Probably still is. Not saying it's right; I just don't think the average Christian thinks about these things.

-Nam

Right, that's what I said: Christian privilege.

[Nam]

pianodwarf,

You're making it sound as if that's what they see it as. I think that's what you see it as; and of course the fundamentalists, and politicians.

-Nam

[madeline]

Kimberly...I am impressed that you received the feedback from the teacher like you did. That's a great sign of progress for the secular fraction for sure!

[pianodwarf]

You're making it sound as if that's what they see it as.

No, they don't.  In fact, one of the characteristics of the privilege, whether it's Christian privilege, male privilege, white privilege, or whatever, is that the people who have the privilege usually don't know that they have it, as was the case with this teacher.  Simply becoming aware of the privilege often eliminates it.

I think that's what you see it as

Yes, because that's what it is.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Thanks for the post Schizoid..I hope your Goddaughter is doing better.

I am sincerely sorry if my post offended anyone, that was not my intent. 

Well for my part, I am not offended. So no apology needed. The south is just like any other part of America. There are places where you won't be welcomed. There are places where you will. I will say that I haven't heard of anyone being mugged beaten shot or otherwise killed because they don't believe in God. The worst I've seen is that you might get ignored or receive mean looks.

Your daughter shouldn't have any serious troubles from kids her age. I dare say that just as many kids would be fascinated by her as repulsed...and for a variety of different reasons.

A gun probably isn't necessary but it's still a good idea to have one...there is a pretty serious drug problem down here. Desperate times, desperate people yadda yadda yadda.

Ultimately it all depends on exactly where in North Carolina you live as to exactly how concerned you should be. Call your local police department and ask for crime rates for your area. That should give you some indication of how safe you are.

From my personal experience having lived in the south my whole life, most people round here don't give a fuck what you do with your life...just so long as you don't go broadcasting it to everyone you meet.

I've never experienced any issues from people inviting me to church after telling them I don't have much interest in going to church and just left it at that. Hell, you could just as easily tell them that you feel no desire to go to a specific building to worship God when he is everywhere. I realize it's all more complicated than this but I honestly don't think it's as dangerous or life threatening as you might think or others have implied.

For example, the company I work for now is a small family owned operation. They are pretty religious but not many of their employees are.

We have a right wing conservative womanizing bigot, two or three gay people...not sure about one of them. A couple of rednecks, couple of hicks, couple people like me and a few quasi religious people who don't push their religion on the rest of us.
Everybody seems to get along with everybody, except for the womanizing bigot, he is merely tolerated.

Our customers also run the gamut. From church flyer's to satanic CD album covers to medical research power point presentations and coupons for commercial business.

And I live in the buckle of the Bible belt.