Mexico's Drug War

[shnozzola]

More and more Mexico seems broken.  I understand US drug use drives alot of the violence.  Some news articles and a good article from the New Yorker give an idea how bad it is getting for the people of Mexico.  The Zetas, formed from ex- military, seem especially dangerous.

For most of us, Mexico is reduced several times a week to a sickening barrage of horror flick headlines. Thirty-five bodies left on the freeway during rush-hour in a major tourist city. A person's face sewn onto a soccer ball. Bodies found stuffed in barrels of acid. Heads sent rolling onto busy nightclub dance floors.
What could explain such savagery?
Traffickers don't have a political or religious ideology like al Qaeda.
The answer, some experts say, is a number. Something like $39 billion.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/15/world/mexico-drug-war-essay/index.html

Coahuila has been hit by waves of drug cartel-related violence, some of which has targeted state and local officials. The state has been dominated by the ultra-violent, paramilitary Zetas cartel, but the powerful Sinaloa criminal organization is trying to wrest control of key smuggling routes in some areas.

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mexico-deploys-forces-in-death-of-politician-s-son-3919120.php

The Zetas approach a town, a city, or a state as a shakedown opportunity. They fight for the right to terrorize a community, and bleed it dry. They also threaten the central government. One of their mantas, hung from a bridge in Monterrey in February, said, “The government must make a pact with us because if not we will have to overthrow it and take power by force.”

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/02/120702fa_fact_finnegan

[Nick]

It also does not help in that we supply 90% or more of the guns to the area.  But then the NRA and gun manufacturers love it.

[jetson]

I think we can all relax, since this is Obama's fault.

[Quesi]

It also does not help in that we supply 90% or more of the guns to the area.  But then the NRA and gun manufacturers love it.

Not just the guns!  We have trained some of the best of the best in this drug war.  You may feel sorry for some of those elite officers trained in the School of the Americas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas_Watch who haven't had much to do since the cold war ended.  But the good news is, many of our graduates have moved away from overthrowing governments that are trying to implement agrarian reform.  Instead, they are helping the Mexican drug lords bring those goodies to us here in the USA. 

SOA-trained Mexican Army Colonel to Be Tried in Civilian Court for Cover Up

For his role in the cover up of the May, 2011 torture and murder of 27 year-old engineer Jethro Sánchez Santana, in Veracruz, the Mexican Supreme Court decided that Army Colonel and SOA graduate José Guadalupe Arias Agredano (of Mexico's 21st Infantry Batallion) should be tried in civilian courts. If the court rules the same way in at least five cases, it could lead to all soldiers accused of crimes against civilians to be tried in civilian courts. According to the Jornada Morelos, military prosecutors have opened up at least 5,000 cases involving crimes against civilians from 2007 until April 2012, with only 38 soldiers being convicted.
http://www.soaw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=205

Honestly, it really breaks my heart.  I lived in Mexico for years, and I have family there now.  Violence is creeping into previously untouched regions.  And although I plan to continue to take my daughter there, I do not feel the safety and the freedom of movement that I did even a decade ago. 

[Nick]

Some time back FOX did a review where they tried to say very few of the guns were coming from the US.  They tried to say South America was the source.  Then they jumped all over the Fast and Furious mess to make it look like this was so bad.  Actually, it pointed out how easy it was for guns to flow South and continue to do so.  Laws in Arizona are so weak that anybody could buy unlinmited numbers of all kinds of guns if you have bucks.

I would not feel safe in Mexico.  Kidnappings and such make it not worth it.

[stuffin]

Anytime I see the words Drug and War connected I think failure.

Some genius minds need to get together and start working on a legalization process. It will be a difficult task but it will be the only way to gain some control over the violence. I know, I'm a pipe dreamer.

[Garja]

Some genius minds need to get together and start working on a legalization process. It will be a difficult task but it will be the only way to gain some control over the violence. I know, I'm a pipe dreamer.

Thats my opinion as well.  I mean, I dont do any kind of illicit drugs.  I took like 2 hits off a joint over 15 years ago and that was about the extent of it... but its crazy.  We lock up so many people for dumb ass drug shit that we cant actually incarcerate the violent offenders that we actually need to be concerned about.

I'm far from pro-drug, but the prohibition of alcohol did the same damn thing.  Any time you take a substance that people WANT and the government limits supply via interdiction and by making it illegal in the first place.... all you are guaranteed to do is to create a black market where prices are higher than they should be making it extremely profitable for some extremely bad people.  Legalizing drugs makes the price PLUMMET in a rather short amount of time, black markets dry up due to lack of profit, crime levels return to normal, prisons start to empty of non-violent offenders, crime from ancillary crimes (used to fund addiction) drop with the price.

Legalize, save money on the "war" on drugs
Tax the shit out of it.
= goodbye deficit.... easy peasy        (yes, I know im oversimplifying)

Vote Garja 2016.

[Death over Life]

You know, I still feel this would be done in a heart-beat if everybody were straight-edge like me! 

Seriously, nobody likes drugs, no demand for supply, no demand means no money, no money means no work.

If everybody were straight-edge to end the stupid drugs, that's my pipe dream.

Now onto reality, the drugs need to be legalized, bar none. In addition, I'm not pro-war by any means, but I think it would make a lot more sense if our troops were in Mexico fighting the cartelmen than in the Middle East.

[Quesi]

I agree.  I have no problem with pot, but I've seen coke destroy lives.  But I've seen alcohol destroy lives too.  A lot of people died during prohibition because when something is illegal and people want it, someone will find a way to get it to the people who want it.  So I say decriminalize.  Or legalize and tax.

The School of the Americas graduates will need to find something else to do with the education that my tax dollars paid for. 

[ParkingPlaces]

Legalize, save money on the "war" on drugs
Tax the shit out of it.
= goodbye deficit.... easy peasy        (yes, I know im oversimplifying)

Vote Garja 2016.

sadly, you can't tax the shit out of it. That would continue the war as people sought cheaper sources. There is a huge market in this country and Europe for tax free cigarettes. Legalize it, make it affordable, and tell people it is their frickin' fault if they ruin their own lives with drugs. Also, make harming others while high or otherwise under the influence of drugs a very heavy prison term, in hopes that people who are ruining their own lives will hesitate to ruin the lives of others. I'm guessing that over time, the use of drugs would decrease as people decide it isn't cool any more, since it is legal.

Obviously the problem isn't actually that simple to solve, but we need to start thinking outside the box. Because nothing we've done in the last 40-50 years has done squat to solve the problem.

You still have my vote in 2016 though, Garja 

[kindred]

I agree.  I have no problem with pot, but I've seen coke destroy lives.  But I've seen alcohol destroy lives too.  A lot of people died during prohibition because when something is illegal and people want it, someone will find a way to get it to the people who want it.  So I say decriminalize.  Or legalize and tax.

The School of the Americas graduates will need to find something else to do with the education that my tax dollars paid for.

Who are you exactly to stop people from imbibing things they want to imbibe? As long as they do not curtail other peoples freedom, you have no right to stop them.

[Fiji]

Portugal legalized drugs ... ok, I cut a corner there ... they decriminalized it. Result so far ... fewer addicts, less drug related crime, drug prices have gone down and the quality SEEMS to have gone up. (hard to tell, really ... "Hi, I'm a government official, would you mind letting me sample your coke? It's ok, it has been decriminalized" ... yeah, I can see that working real well)
The Dutch are also toying with this idea.

[jetson]

I'm not sure what you people are thinking here.  The drug war is a commandment from God himself.  If these people would simply become good Christians, drugs would disappear.  And bonus, no more abortions, and women would sit down and shut up, like they are supposed to do.  Geez people, were are your brains in this thread.

 

[Death over Life]

I agree.  I have no problem with pot, but I've seen coke destroy lives.  But I've seen alcohol destroy lives too.  A lot of people died during prohibition because when something is illegal and people want it, someone will find a way to get it to the people who want it.  So I say decriminalize.  Or legalize and tax.

The School of the Americas graduates will need to find something else to do with the education that my tax dollars paid for.

Who are you exactly to stop people from imbibing things they want to imbibe? As long as they do not curtail other peoples freedom, you have no right to stop them.

It crosses the line when it starts to harm others. If people want to commit suicide this way, their choice, but when it starts harming others, be it drinking and driving, smoking around other people who aren’t smoking etc. it is no longer imbibing and is now technically assault with a weapon.

They need to make laws about those who smoke around others, since statistics from scientists are coming out with how 2nd and now even 3rd hand smoking harms people, children and babies.

In addition, we need strict laws concerning bars, because I’m seeing that part of the problem is there are to many bars out there allowing people to get wasted instead of just buzzed. Make a law where every glass of beer or tequila etc. must also be served with a pint of water you must drink before your next drink since water has been proven to mellow the effects of the alcohol or something.

There’s no right to control how people do what they want, until they harm others, and I think drugs have proven to be far more harmful than beneficial, with the exception of some of the drugs used for medical purposes that are ironically illegal, like pot.

I'm not sure what you people are thinking here.  The drug war is a commandment from God himself.  If these people would simply become good Christians, drugs would disappear.  And bonus, no more abortions, and women would sit down and shut up, like they are supposed to do.  Geez people, were are your brains in this thread.

 

Embedded in reality instead of delusions! 

[kindred]

^

I wouldn't bet on it. What you're suggesting is going against the current system and you know how that shit works. You MIGHT get people to change and rally to a purpose but it'll be way after your generation before people will reap the benefits change and you know how people are about the long term.

Drugs are cool nowadays. They symbolize rebellion and what not. Just as long as their are stupid people who will use them without any forethought for the consequences then there will be demand and it'll flourish.

Drugs are a hard case to deal with and from what I can see, there are other problems far easier to solve with far less resources needed. Transportation, improving water sources, fostering community etc.

[screwtape]

The drug war is a commandment from God himself.

It might help if this guy, who has a direct phone line to JC himself, comes out in favor of legalization...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/us/pat-robertson-backs-legalizing-marijuana.html?_r=0

the thing is, liberals will never be able to get it to happen.  Conservatives have to come to the conclusion that the WoD is futile on their own.  As long as liberals keep pushing the issue, conservatives will resist.  However, it seems some conservatives are getting it:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/29/opinion/la-oe-miron-legalize-drugs-20100929
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/25/the-conservative-case-for-legalizing-pot.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2012/08/16/isnt-it-high-time-we-legalize-marijuana/


edit added last quote

[mrbiscoop]

    As for the drug war, Latin America in general and Mexico in particular has been fucked up since day one. The drug war is just another manifestation of of this "fuckedupness". This being said I lived for 15 years in Tucson and loved Mexico and still do. I would drive into northern Sonora Mexico for a couple days at a time and sleep in the back of my truck along rural roads, visiting local towns and their bars without incident. Not sure that I would want to do this today. It's a shame that the drug policy of the USA is contributing in any way to the violence in Mexico.
    I don't believe in anything like karma but they had all this coming for the extinction of the Imperial Woodpecker, Mexican Wolf and the Grizzly Bear (within Mexico anyhow).
    I have to stop writing posts under the influence of alcohol.

[Garja]

My time is very short this AM but I wanted to clarify my earlier post.  I realize that legalizing and taxing would not ELIMINATE a black market, but it would drastically reduce it.  Also perhaps "tax the shit out of it" was misleading.  I dont mean to the point where the price is anywhere near what it is today, but for weed for example, would put the price in line with cigarettes.

[Brakeman]

As one who has been inside the drug war himself. Let me highlight a few thinking points.

If cocaine became legal today in the US, for the next three years the same people would control the same coca fields. The labs would be less clandestine and the interdiction losses would cease. The initial effect would be to make the drug lords richer and more powerful, and lower the drug prices on the street, while increasing demand.

What would those thugs do to the next farmer who decided to start himself a coca plantation? They would kill him of course, just like they do now. Here in the US, corn farmers live happily side by side because the government guarantees a stable price and individually owned fields are already ubiquitous. This is not the case for drug fields and the farmers know that their price would depend on supply. The fighting for control of the fields would be a bloodbath.

Gotta go to work.. maybe I'll finish this later..

[Quesi]

As one who has been inside the drug war himself. Let me highlight a few thinking points.

If cocaine became legal today in the US, for the next three years the same people would control the same coca fields. The labs would be less clandestine and the interdiction losses would cease. The initial effect would be to make the drug lords richer and more powerful, and lower the drug prices on the street, while increasing demand.

What would those thugs do to the next farmer who decided to start himself a coca plantation? They would kill him of course, just like they do now. Here in the US, corn farmers live happily side by side because the government guarantees a stable price and individually owned fields are already ubiquitous. This is not the case for drug fields and the farmers know that their price would depend on supply. The fighting for control of the fields would be a bloodbath.

Gotta go to work.. maybe I'll finish this later..

You raise some interesting points, and I'm really interested in hearing more of what you have to say on this topic.  But I'm not sure I believe everything you say about the farmers.  In recent years, both Bolivia and Peru have decriminalized the growing on of coca, and Bolivia has decriminalized personal use of coca leaves for chewing and tea.  The indigenous people of the region have been using the coca plants in these ways for thousands of years, and it does seem absurd to make it against the law to use a stimulant not much more powerful than coffee, just because some foreigners figured out how to make it a more powerful and destructive stimulant.  I don't know how this has impacted on the farmers in the region.  I know that there was legislation introduced in Colombia to do the same thing, but it didn't pass.  The power structures in Colombia are much much more complex.

What impact did the re-legalization of alcohol have on organized crime after the end of prohibition.  How as production impacted?  I really don't know the details of that part of our national history. 

[pianodwarf]

Or, if you had been writing in the 1920s instead of today, when cocaine was perfectly legal and alcohol was not...

If cocaine alcohol became legal today in the US, for the next three years the same people would control the same coca fields distilleries. The labs speakesies would be less clandestine and the interdiction losses would cease. The initial effect would be to make the drug lords bootleggers richer and more powerful, and lower the drug alcohol prices on the street, while increasing demand.

What would those thugs do to the next farmer homebrewer who decided to start himself a coca plantation brewery? They would kill him of course, just like they do now.

Etc etc...

[stuffin]

As one who has been inside the drug war himself. Let me highlight a few thinking points.

If cocaine became legal today in the US, for the next three years the same people would control the same coca fields. The labs would be less clandestine and the interdiction losses would cease. The initial effect would be to make the drug lords richer and more powerful, and lower the drug prices on the street, while increasing demand.

What would those thugs do to the next farmer who decided to start himself a coca plantation? They would kill him of course, just like they do now. Here in the US, corn farmers live happily side by side because the government guarantees a stable price and individually owned fields are already ubiquitous. This is not the case for drug fields and the farmers know that their price would depend on supply. The fighting for control of the fields would be a bloodbath.

Gotta go to work.. maybe I'll finish this later..

And that is different from what is happening now?

[Mr. Blackwell]

The problem with a naturally occurring substance is that no one can patent it. One may patent a "process" for developing or enhancing said substance but no one can own the rights to the substance itself, if it occurs naturally.

Coca-cola, for example, used the Coca leaf in it's syrup up until the end of the 1920's but they never owned the rights to coca plants. They didn't use manufactured cocaine in their product. The did own the name and the process for extracting the stimulant from the coca leaf.

Marijuana used to be boiled into a syrup and molded into lollipops which doctors would give to children for tooth aches, upset stomachs and such before Marijuana became "evil". 

If we make "cocaine" legal, who will own the patent rights? What "process" will they use? You could end up with a situation where our police raid local manufacturing labs and arresting people for "pirating" Dow's chemical process.

Instead of drug "cartels" you would have drug "companies".....oh....wait.

Why are certain plants illegal?

[screwtape]

The problem with a naturally occurring substance is that no one can patent it.

Strictly speaking, that is not true. Once a bacterium was patented in the 80s - via court case - the patent office had to change its policy to "anything can be patented except a living human being".  Quite a windfall for corporations.

[pianodwarf]

Coca-cola, for example, used the Coca leaf in it's syrup up until the end of the 1920's

They still do use the coca leaf.  The difference is that they switched from fresh leaves to spent leaves.  The cocaine, after being extracted from the leaves, is used for its approved medical purposes (such as anesthetics in dentistry).

[Mr. Blackwell]

Strictly speaking, that is not true. Once a bacterium was patented in the 80s - via court case - the patent office had to change its policy to "anything can be patented except a living human being".  Quite a windfall for corporations.

Seriously? Wow, just...wow.

Well, I guess you can't grant a patent for human beings to a private company since our government already uses our very existence as collateral for their deficit spending. There is a lean on us.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Coca-cola, for example, used the Coca leaf in it's syrup up until the end of the 1920's

They still do use the coca leaf.  The difference is that they switched from fresh leaves to spent leaves.  The cocaine, after being extracted from the leaves, is used for its approved medical purposes (such as anesthetics in dentistry).

hmmm...I didn't think they used any part of the coca leaf or kola bean any longer[1]. And are you talking about Novacaine for the dentistry thingy? I wonder if there is any connection between Robert Koch[2] and Koch industries and the Koch brothers?

Koch...coke...cocaine...provacaine...Novacaine?

FYI...I am wearing my tinfoil hat right now 

1.	Hard to say since their process is a closely hidden industry secret.
2.	inventor of provacaine

[screwtape]

Seriously? Wow, just...wow.

yeah.  the results of supreme court justices' ignorance of science.
learned that here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/


edit - linked wrong movie.  corrected


edit2:

also :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_patent

[Mr. Blackwell]

Natural biological substances themselves can be patented (apart from any associated process or usage) in the United States if they are sufficiently "isolated" from their naturally occurring states.[1]

Sooo. Does the movie demonstrate what sufficiently "isolated" means?

Is cocaine sufficiently isolated from the coca plant? Can humans be sufficiently "isolated" from their naturally occurring states?

I'm thinking test tube babies and stem cells here.

1.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_patent