Author Topic: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)  (Read 2914 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2013, 11:48:21 AM »
It may be fairer to say that I’m trending toward “deism”, as everything we understand about cosmology leads me to conclude that the cosmos requires a cause of its continuing to exist and that that cause cannot be inert


Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things, perhaps even the entire universe, can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes.  (Mark I. Vuletic)


Even if we don't have a precise idea of exactly what took place at the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific.  (Paul Davies, physicist, Arizona State University)
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2013, 09:51:11 AM »
It may be fairer to say that I’m trending toward “deism”, as everything we understand about cosmology leads me to conclude that the cosmos requires a cause of its continuing to exist and that that cause cannot be inert

You may also enjoy this book, or this one.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline The Gawd

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2013, 10:36:04 AM »
About this "something from nothing"

Who ever said that "nothing" ever existed or was an option?

Offline Bluecolour

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2013, 09:28:15 PM »
I just saw this post yesterday. While this response is most likely too late to be of any use to you, my personal study on this matter makes me feel somewhat obliged to contribute. Hopefully i can still point someone in the right direction to get answers.
You want to know if your moving out of theism for the right reasons.
The straight answer is NO.

Without going further into that let me address your second question: The Christian view of mankind.
In my opinion your confusion is a result of not having understood exactly what that view is.

In Christianity we use 'man is fallen' as descriptive of not just his sinful life but a lot of other factors with regards to the current conditions of mankind. What it generally says is simply this: that we are not what we ought to be, or to put it in different words, that we are not perfect.
(Regardless of your personal views of mankind or yourself you will still recognize this as being true.)

Secondly, saying someone is sinful is not the same as saying they are evil. There are i must confess, many people who when saying someone is sinful or a sinner do indeed mean it this way, they are however wrong.
For example, you have most likely been taught that evil is a result of sin. If we took the two to be the same thing that statement would make no sense. It would effectively be saying that evil was a result of evil.
There is a distinction. Sin is the offense, evil is the result. Sin separates us from God and evil is the result of that separation.

Next, one needs to point out the  distinction made in the bible between 'our sins' and Sin.
Our sins (the offence):
1 John 3:4  'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.'
1 John 1:9  'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'
Proverbs 10:12  'Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.'

And sin (the principle and power):
John 8:34  'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.'
Genesis 4:7  'If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.'
Romans 7:11  'For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.'
Romans 8:3  'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.'

According to the bible, when man sins it is not because he is evil, nor does he by sinning become evil. Man is by nature good, he desires in his heart to do what is right, but when he looks at himself his own actions betray him. For a better understanding of the nature of sin i suggest you read the book of Romans. This is how Paul describes it:

Quote
Rom 7:14  We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin.
Rom 7:15  For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns].
Rom 7:16  Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it.
Rom 7:17  However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]
Rom 7:19  For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].
Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands.
Rom 7:22  For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature]. [Ps. 1:2.]
Rom 7:23  But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh].

Having read this i hope no one will suggest that i'm just making up excuses.

The view that man is an evil creature seeking only to cause harm and do evil is not biblical. Honestly i'm not even sure where it comes from. Most people do indeed want to do good and yet they find themselves fighting constantly with a nearly overpowering desire to do the opposite. In fact the very worst humans are just people who have completely given up in their struggle to do the right thing.
You should really read the book of Romans. He also talks about how if we had never been given moral commandments we wouldn't have even known that there was something wrong with us.

Quote
Rom 7:7  What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another]. [Exod. 20:17; Deut. 5:21.]
Rom 7:8  But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing].


Be careful. There are a lot of people who think they understand what being a Christian is all about but could not be further from the truth. The fact that so many of them sit in pews or stand behind pulpits does not make them at all reliable in these matters. Nobody taught me what i just told you, and you shouldn't look to be taught something that you can learn for yourself.
Already in your post i can see several of the false assumptions you have on what Christianity is though I've chosen for the time being not to address them. I can also tell that you didn't get these out of the bible but that you received them from others also harboring these ideas.
I still don't know you, or if this can be of any help to you, either way i'll still say this: be careful who you trust for answers. Many will misguide you, and many more will drive you to frustration with unsatisfactory answers. But most importantly pray continuously to God; that He grant you revelation in the knowledge of Himself and rest of mind in your uncertainty.


Offline Bluecolour

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2013, 09:38:48 PM »
In case you don’t watch the show, “The Doctor” is a 900 year old, highly intelligent, highly advanced Alien who travels through time and space to observe life and help where he can, and he loves Humanity, human beings are his favorite species. In one episode a human friend of his said to him “We must look like ants to you”, to which the Doctor replied “No, to me you look like giants”.


Doctor Who called us giants. The Bible did one better, it called us gods.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2013, 10:47:57 PM »
Without going further into that let me address your second question: The Christian view of mankind.
In my opinion your confusion is a result of not having understood exactly what that view is.

You mean... what YOUR view is.  Yes, YOUR super special viewpoint.  The real, one, true Christian viewpoint that every single one of you thinks you have but just so happens to be different from the guy standing next to you. 

In Christianity we use 'man is fallen' as descriptive of not just his sinful life but a lot of other factors with regards to the current conditions of mankind. What it generally says is simply this: that we are not what we ought to be, or to put it in different words, that we are not perfect.
(Regardless of your personal views of mankind or yourself you will still recognize this as being true.)
It doesn't take reading a 2000 year old book to realize we're not perfect.  It's a fact that anyone with half a brain could recognize.   

For example, you have most likely been taught that evil is a result of sin. If we took the two to be the same thing that statement would make no sense. It would effectively be saying that evil was a result of evil.
There is a distinction. Sin is the offense, evil is the result. Sin separates us from God and evil is the result of that separation.

Either that, or sometimes we just do things that feel wrong and that other people judge as wrong, and you and your ilk have theologically 'complexified'  this basic, simple fact into a theological premise that only makes sense in God-land.   

According to the bible, when man sins it is not because he is evil, nor does he by sinning become evil. Man is by nature good, he desires in his heart to do what is right, but when he looks at himself his own actions betray him.
Who cares what the bible says about it?  You're on an atheist site, and the person in question is debating whether or not to turn away from theism.  The very core of whether or not the bible holds truth is in question for him.  Throwing bible verses at him and spewing your theological bullshit is all well and good, but he needs to consider whether or not the term 'sin' is even useful here. 

Sin is defined as a crime against God.  If God doesn't exist, there is no such thing as sin.  If that is the case, and this world is exactly the way it is, then how do you account for the fact that sometimes people do good things and sometimes people do bad things?  Very, very easily.  It has to do with circumstances, decision making, subjective viewpoints, hardships, and the fact that we're on a small planet with 7 billion people all trying to get along and survive.  Good and bad things are going to happen sometimes.  All that God crap just confuses things.  It makes for more questions instead of less. 

For a better understanding of the nature of sin i suggest you read the book of Romans.
And I suggest you consider the fact that there is no such thing as sin, and therefore no reason to take the bible seriously. 
Having read this i hope no one will suggest that i'm just making up excuses.
You're not making up excuses.  You believe God is real, and this is the theological nonsense you've pulled from your special book that explains how someone who believes as you do, squares the fact that sometimes people do good things and sometimes people do bad things.  Great for you.  Now, IS ANY OF IT TRUE?  That is the question.  Or better yet, is the natural explanation as to why people do good and bad things fully adequate without the ridiculous belief in the invisible sky person?  You bet your ass it is. 

The view that man is an evil creature seeking only to cause harm and do evil is not biblical.
Who said it was?  It would be dumb for someone to say that, because it's not in evidence at all.  No religious book would ever say that, because nobody would believe in it anymore. 

Honestly i'm not even sure where it comes from. Most people do indeed want to do good and yet they find themselves fighting constantly with a nearly overpowering desire to do the opposite.
Speak for yourself.  That's totally not the case with most, if not all the people I know.  I have no overwhelming desire to do the wrong thing.  Maybe you do, but I don't. 

In fact the very worst humans are just people who have completely given up in their struggle to do the right thing.
It is very likely that you would judge the 'very worst human beings' harshly without ever listening to the ACTUAL reasons that they do what they do.  Sometimes it's mental illness.  Sometimes it's having been abused as a child.  Sometimes it's life circumstances.  Sometimes it's religious brainwashing.  To brazenly state that the worst people have simply given up on doing good is incredibly narrow minded.  You make it sound like people actually sit there and say to themselves... "Gee I really shouldn't do this" and then they go out and do it anyway just because it's the lazy route.  What about the man who robs a convenience store?  Is he evil?  What if its to feed his kids at home?  What about the man who kills his neighbor?  Is he evil?  What if he found out his neighbor sexually abused his child?  What then?  No Bluecolour.  You're wrong.  I dare say that most of the time, when your average decent, non-mentally ill person does a bad thing, its because life circumstances have driven them to that behavior. 

You should really read the book of Romans. He also talks about how if we had never been given moral commandments we wouldn't have even known that there was something wrong with us.
You make it sound as if prior to scripture, people didn't know when they were doing something wrong.  That's patently stupid.  People were treating each other well, and were fully aware that some things were considered bad and some were considered good, long before Christianity came along. 

Be careful. There are a lot of people who think they understand what being a Christian is all about but could not be further from the truth.
But not you, right?  No.... not you.  You've got it all figured out and everyone else has it wrong. 

The fact that so many of them sit in pews or stand behind pulpits does not make them at all reliable in these matters.
But you are, right?  Mmmhmmm. 

I still don't know you, or if this can be of any help to you, either way i'll still say this: be careful who you trust for answers. Many will misguide you, and many more will drive you to frustration with unsatisfactory answers.
Agree totally.  How ironic. 

But most importantly pray continuously to God; that He grant you revelation in the knowledge of Himself and rest of mind in your uncertainty.
Or, don't do that.  Remember, many will misguide you and many will drive you to frustration.  What's more frustrating than praying continuously to a God that doesn't exist? 

You see, they tell you to pray continuously and say that he will grant revelation to you, but they never tell you when enough is enough.  Like, when do you stop praying and admit that it doesn't work?  Never.  You can't.  They make it seem like if you don't get the revelation, that there's something wrong with YOU, not with the God belief.  So you pray harder, and keep getting more upset when nothing is coming.  And eventually, you get so upset and frustrated with the whole process, that your threshold for believing something... ANYTHING is coming from God is so freaking low, that you start to see that voice inside your head (that we all have, and it's our own mind) isn't your mind, but God talking to you.  And voila! You've conjured your own version of the super special sky man.  Then, you get to take part in the fun process of trying to mesh an incredibly disgusting, maniacal, ridiculous bible with the real world, and really... that's what Bluecolour has done.  Once the belief in God is there, whatever theology coincides with his brains' current view on the world, is what he adapts. And that's why he says what he says... not because it's true, but because that's the way he's rationalized a fictitious God into a reality that we all share.  And that's why we have soooo many people who come here and say that THEIRS is the one, true version of Christianity. 

But it's all just bullshit. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline The Gawd

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2013, 11:44:03 PM »
I just saw this post yesterday. While this response is most likely too late to be of any use to you, my personal study on this matter makes me feel somewhat obliged to contribute. Hopefully i can still point someone in the right direction to get answers.
You want to know if your moving out of theism for the right reasons.
The straight answer is NO.
The straight answer is YES. There is no "right reason" to get to the truth. The reason is the truth IS reality. You cannot escape it by tricking yourself into believing myths.

Quote
Without going further into that let me address your second question: The Christian view of mankind.
In my opinion your confusion is a result of not having understood exactly what that view is.

In Christianity we use 'man is fallen' as descriptive of not just his sinful life but a lot of other factors with regards to the current conditions of mankind. What it generally says is simply this: that we are not what we ought to be, or to put it in different words, that we are not perfect.
(Regardless of your personal views of mankind or yourself you will still recognize this as being true.)
He is confused because his whole life he has been lied to by Christians all claiming that they are the One True Christian and know what this fictitional "god" wants and each and EVERY One True Christian's version of Christianity doesnt coincide with REALITY. So he's torn between everything he knows to be true (reality) and the myths that appear to be obviously false, but hes been conditioned to believe

Quote
Secondly, saying someone is sinful is not the same as saying they are evil. There are i must confess, many people who when saying someone is sinful or a sinner do indeed mean it this way, they are however wrong.
For example, you have most likely been taught that evil is a result of sin. If we took the two to be the same thing that statement would make no sense. It would effectively be saying that evil was a result of evil.
There is a distinction. Sin is the offense, evil is the result. Sin separates us from God and evil is the result of that separation.
There is no such thing as sin. You cant make a list of sins except disobedience. The problem here is that you cant be disobedient to something non-existent. As for anything you consider a sin, if you name it I guarantee we can find yahweh condoning it in the bible... except disobedience of course, and that makes you a slave.

Quote
Next, one needs to point out the  distinction made in the bible between 'our sins' and Sin.
Our sins (the offence):
1 John 3:4  'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.'
1 John 1:9  'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'
Proverbs 10:12  'Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.'

And sin (the principle and power):
John 8:34  'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.'
Genesis 4:7  'If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.'
Romans 7:11  'For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.'
Romans 8:3  'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.'
bible verses are worthless and contradictory. They were written by people who, if they existed today, would be no more intellegent than your average 1st or 2nd grader.

Quote
According to the bible, when man sins it is not because he is evil, nor does he by sinning become evil. Man is by nature good, he desires in his heart to do what is right, but when he looks at himself his own actions betray him. For a better understanding of the nature of sin i suggest you read the book of Romans. This is how Paul describes it:

Quote
Rom 7:14  We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin.
Rom 7:15  For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns].
Rom 7:16  Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it.
Rom 7:17  However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]
Rom 7:19  For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].
Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands.
Rom 7:22  For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature]. [Ps. 1:2.]
Rom 7:23  But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh].
Blah...

Quote
Having read this i hope no one will suggest that i'm just making up excuses.
Of course you are. Thats all posting bible verses is. Its excuse making and no more. Excuses for why the world doesnt work like it would if a loving, benevolent, all powerful, super sky daddy was in charge and participating. Excuses for why it seems that old book written by barbarians doesnt reflect reality.

Quote
The view that man is an evil creature seeking only to cause harm and do evil is not biblical. Honestly i'm not even sure where it comes from. Most people do indeed want to do good and yet they find themselves fighting constantly with a nearly overpowering desire to do the opposite. In fact the very worst humans are just people who have completely given up in their struggle to do the right thing.
You should really read the book of Romans. He also talks about how if we had never been given moral commandments we wouldn't have even known that there was something wrong with us.
Its absolutely biblical, you just happened to pull the verses that agree with you. Next week the REAL One True Christian will arrive at WWGHA and assure us all everything the opposite of what youre saying with bible verses to support him/her.

Quote
Rom 7:7  What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another]. [Exod. 20:17; Deut. 5:21.]
Rom 7:8  But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing].

blah.
Quote
Be careful. There are a lot of people who think they understand what being a Christian is all about but could not be further from the truth. The fact that so many of them sit in pews or stand behind pulpits does not make them at all reliable in these matters. Nobody taught me what i just told you, and you shouldn't look to be taught something that you can learn for yourself.
Already in your post i can see several of the false assumptions you have on what Christianity is though I've chosen for the time being not to address them. I can also tell that you didn't get these out of the bible but that you received them from others also harboring these ideas.
I still don't know you, or if this can be of any help to you, either way i'll still say this: be careful who you trust for answers. Many will misguide you, and many more will drive you to frustration with unsatisfactory answers. But most importantly pray continuously to God; that He grant you revelation in the knowledge of Himself and rest of mind in your uncertainty.
But thank Gawd you have finally arrived after 2013 years to give us the One True Revelation about what being a christian is all about. You should go back and correct all those fake christians... you should start with the "12 Disciples" who undoubtedly have opposing views on Christianity and work your way to current day One True Christians that are spreading their false religions to others. Let them know that YOU are the One True Christian.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 11:47:19 PM by The Gawd »

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2013, 11:12:40 AM »
I realize that the OP by Philosopher_at_Large is a little old, but as a former Catholic, I can sympathize with your current position. I found this post to be very impressive. Not saying that I agree with a lot of the things that you believe or say. But I found that you explained what you believe and your reasons for it well, without having to refer to preaching and nonsense, a very high quality post fro a theist, and with a lot of stuff that can be seriously discussed.

As I said, I was raised Catholic. I was pretty involved in the church and activities there, was part of the youth group, was confirmed, and became a minister of the alleged body and blood of Christ (one of the people who hand out the Eucharist and wine to the congregants). Ironically, the latter was during the time that I started to question my faith. I thought that perhaps by such service, I would find answers to my doubts. I thought that by being part of administering a sacred act, I would become closer to God.

This was also when I started college. I took Intro to Philosophy my first semester. My professor was an atheist. It was interesting to me to see someone else asking the same kinds for questions and coming to the same answers as me. It really helped to shatter the wall for me. My transition began at that point, although I couldn't say that it was an immediate switch. I first moved towards a sort of deism, or perhaps maybe pantheism, a sort of Spinoza look at things. It also happened that I developed an interest in Satanism, but it seemed like too much of the same type of BS as was present in Christianity. An occasional bit of something worth pondering, but mostly propaganda and silliness.

I began to try to figure out where I stood. I thought about and wrote about a lot of the different ideas I had about life after death, spirits/souls, gods, the purpose of life, etc etc. But all of this time I was still studying philosophy, and obviously some of that entailed studying the different arguments for God, i.e. cosmological, fine tuning, ontological arguments etc, and seeing that they are very, weak and unconvincing, and appeal very much to ignorance and incredulity, and need a serious shave with Occam's razor. It was inevitable that by the time my first semester was over, I was an atheist. Certainly not as well informed or studied as I am now, and not as passionate. The last 5 years or so have really made me anti religion.

And inevitably I have really come to despise the Catholic Church. I suppose one might reasonably say that I hold a grudge against them, because in a sense I do. I was never molested or anything, but the sick and cruel way the Catholic Church operates, the guilt, the shame, the fear, the intimidation, the need for confession, the oppression of sexuality, and so much more, really shaped the way I was raised and viewed the world because it was all I had ever known.

It's also hard to ignore that the Catholic Church is pretty much the single greatest purveyor of evil the human species has ever known. I submit that if one had a way of assessing every single crime and atrocity and act of wickedness the Catholic Church has committed, it would take at least an entire lifetime to record them all. The Catholic Church has, gleefully and self righteously, oppressed women, encouraged poverty, enforced slavery, overseen genocide and massacres, systematically hidden child predators, supported Hitler, Mussolini and Franco, shuffled ex Nazis out of Europe into South America, campaigned against all forms of contraception and abortion, made saints out of murderers like Thomas More and evil sadists like "Mother" Theresa (Agnes Bojaxhiu), slaughtered their fellow Christians in Constantinople, encouraged and oversaw massacres in Rwanda,and told people in Africa that condoms increase the risk of AIDS. In 2010, when Haiti was utterly devastated by an earthquake, and their former arch-bishop killed along with over a quarter million others, Catholic leaders, standing amidst the ruins of the cathedral, told these despairing people that "“For anyone who has turned away from God, now is the time to return.” and "“God had something to say and he said it here. He did it because he wants Haiti to become a new country.” What kind of thing is that to say to millions of people who have just had their lives completely destroyed? That's just sick, and it's typical of the condescending, holier than thou attitude of the Catholic Church. There are so many other things wrong with them that it would be impossible for me to list them all here.

You do seem to be in a sort of deist type of state right now, but you seem easily capable of crossing the bridge of reason into atheism soon. Really consider the arguments for atheism. Read forum posts by high rated members like Screwtape, parking Places , quesi, nogodsforme, and kcrady, (the top 5). Watch videos of Christopher Hitchens, we have a thread with quite of few of them. You'll find that life is much more precious when you are not having to worry about pleasing Big Brother.

It's no good being Catholic though that's for sure. They are like a kind of super villain evil empire, willing to bleed and extort anyone in order to fatten their own coffers and expand their power. Secular values have managed to reign in a lot of their more directly harmful actions, such as burning people alive for imaginary crimes and treating women like property, among others. And the Catholic Church has been fighting this progression all of the time and still grudgingly maintains some very stubborn and obsolete positions.

13 years ago I was on the same path as you are now. It's worthwhile to hurry down that path towards it's natural end, which is that of non-belief in all forms of superstition.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2013, 01:04:21 PM »

Without going further into that let me address your second question: The Christian view of mankind.
In my opinion your confusion is a result of not having understood exactly what that view is.

Protip: The majority of us are ex-christians.  In addition to that, many (if not most) of us have read the bible, cover-to-cover.  So we understand christianity very well.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2013, 05:30:48 AM »
Hey, I just popped back in for the first time in months (I've been really busy lately) I just wanted to thatn everybody for their input on my thoughts and delemia, I've read all of them and they've been very helpful to me.
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline Graybeard

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2013, 05:57:36 PM »
I was just wondering where you had gone. Where are you now on your journey of deconversion?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 12:25:12 AM »
I was just wondering where you had gone. Where are you now on your journey of deconversion?

I'm not sure. a "deconversion" as you call it is not like a conversion. In the case of my converting to Christianity in the first place, it was because of events that I attributed to God, in the case of my now questioning whether I believe in that god anymore; it has more to do with the premise upon which that particular view of god is based. All I can tell you at this point is that I continue to think that Christianity, as I understand it cannot be right about human nature, is that enough for me to abandon it? That all depends on whether my understanding of Christian teaching is correct.
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline jdawg70

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2013, 05:37:34 PM »
I was just wondering where you had gone. Where are you now on your journey of deconversion?

I'm not sure. a "deconversion" as you call it is not like a conversion. In the case of my converting to Christianity in the first place, it was because of events that I attributed to God, in the case of my now questioning whether I believe in that god anymore; it has more to do with the premise upon which that particular view of god is based. All I can tell you at this point is that I continue to think that Christianity, as I understand it cannot be right about human nature, is that enough for me to abandon it? That all depends on whether my understanding of Christian teaching is correct.
If you are looking at trying to understand human nature, why bother with religion or ideology?  Just go straight to the source and study the nature of the other 6 billion humans around.

Insofar as abandoning Christianity...maybe you should ask yourself that question from the other side.  Start without any label for yourself, and then ask yourself "Do I consider myself a Christian?"  At that point, you'll probably ask "What does it mean to be a Christian?"

All I can say is...good luck finding an objective answer to the second question.  You'll get people that will fight tooth and nail to tell you that while they believe in god and Jesus as some means of salvation, they definitely aren't Christian, while at the same time you'll get other people yelling and screaming that they are Christian because they do believe in god and Jesus.  It's all very confusing frankly.  I'd recommend just dealing with what it is you do and do not believe, and to leave labels such as 'Christian', 'deist', 'atheist', 'a-unicornist', and 'last thursdayist' to be contextually dependent on whatever conversation you're having at the time.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: I am trending toward Atheism (Currently Catholic Christian)
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »
If, then, an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being evolved in some other place/time/universe/whatever, by what means did life initially come to be in its place of origin?