Author Topic: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian  (Read 9366 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #145 on: August 22, 2013, 09:24:34 PM »
They always say they are too busy. They always say they'll come back...

-Nam

Shall I demand dozens of examples with proof that they just haven't gotten around to it? &)

Do you really have to ask?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #146 on: August 22, 2013, 09:38:43 PM »
This guy was never an atheist, based on many things he's said in this topic but mainly this:
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He is a faultless and blameless perfect loving God.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #147 on: August 22, 2013, 09:44:08 PM »
The thing you're missing is that this country happened to be founded on Christianity and Biblical principals.

Do you know how many times you will find the words "God", "Jesus" or "Christian/ity" in the US Constitution?   Zero times.

Do you know how many times you find the word "religion" in the US Constitution?   Two times.  The first time stipulates that there is no religious test to hold an office, and the second time is in the First Amendment which states that Congress shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion.

So much for the USA being founded on "Christianity and Biblical principals [sic]" when there is nothing in the US Constitution that codifies a connection to religion much less even imply that connection in any meaningful way.

Are you really that ignorant of history? Of civics? Of the Constitution? Have you ever read the US Constitution?

http://www.rbvincent.com/usconstitution.htm
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And Christianity happens to be the only true religion.

Every religion makes that claim, so the assertion is completely intellectually bankrupt.


The foundation just happened to not be laid in those other countries in anything but a false god and religion.

Iran has not laid a connection between Islam and the government? Saudi Arabia? Did you know that the British have a national religion? Sweden? Many others ... I see that you like to engage in complete misinformation and disinformation.

I wasn't saying anything about their govt, I was simply saying that false religions happened to take hold in those areas. This does not discount Christianity in any way
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The fact that Christianity flourished in the US is not evidence that Jesus Christ isn't God.

I have no idea what you mean by that statement, but considering that Jesus Christ isn't a real person the statement itself carries no meaning.

What I'm saying is, Jesus Christ being God or not, isn't affected by whether Christianity has a stronghold in the US. Almost all Atheist scholors know Jesus was a real person, it's His deity they question.
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Everyone fails to realize that my experience is ongoing. It's not just my testimony. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and as the Bible says the Holy Spirit now lives inside me and guides my life.

Mmmkay. Fine. Whatever. That's an opinion statement on your perspective of your life. Fine.


And while you're the first person ever to question my credibility in relation to my testimony or my relationship with Jesus Christ, I can say that what I'm claiming is either true or makes me, Jesus Christ and all other Christians (including MLK, Colin Powell, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington) nuts.

You are intellectually shallow. Not just in what you say, but in your ability to comprehend. I never once questioned your credibility in relation to your testimony in your relationship with Jesus Christ. That you think I did shows that you are shifting the point to fit your circumstances rather than to address the point I made. The point I made, and I'm not sure why I am bothering to post it a second time, is that your testimony of finding Jesus is a result of your location, not personal veracity. You found Jesus because you happened to be in a place where a lot of other people find Jesus. If you had been in a location where other people find Muhammad, I wouldn't question your personal veracity in statements of testimony for Muhammad. I am not questioning your personal veracity in testimony for Jesus. You find sea shells at the beach, so collecting them in a box to show everyone just shows that you were at the beach. The sea shells are real. The beach was real. The sounds of the ocean you heard in the sea shells -- not so real. Get it?

You need to attain some depth of discussion to survive on this forum.

"By the way, call me cynical but an atheist who finds Jesus is a great way to get into a new career. I've thought about doing it myself, but I'm too honest to engage in such blatant manipulation." That was your statement. At best you were passively aggressively questioning my motives and integrity.
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The question I always ask people when they say I might be nuts, is what other areas of my life would you expect that insanity to affect? For the people who know me that's a very hard question to answer.

I never said you were "nuts" nor did I imply it. Nor did I state or imply that you were insane. So I don't know why you want to put words in my mouth except to project a particular viewpoint upon me simply because you lack the ability to respond in a meaningful way.

I never said you called me nuts or implied it. You're quoting me out of context. I was simply saying there's only three rationalizations for my testimony and those are, Jesus is God, I'm nuts, or I'm lying.
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As far as a new career, I neither need one nor want one. Actually I'm in the hole about $30k because of the work God has called me to do, so not a good financial or career move I can assure you.

You want to have Jesus Christ as your Personal SaviorTM. Fine. I don't care. This idea of testimony to go around and proselytize people into your beliefs is to publicly advertise yourself in a variety of ways. One of them is for commercial purposes. Churches are not non-profit organizations -- they just happened to be untaxed ventures. So, whether you are pushing burgers or miracles, proclaiming an affinity for a locally popular deity certainly helps the bottom line of an income statement for either enterprise.

Asking your customers if they would like a slice of Muhammad on their burgers wouldn't get you far economically, and while I wouldn't find your choice of Islam any better than your choice of Christianity, I would at least give you bonus points for going against the local grain by offering slices of Muhammad on top of the chargrilled angus.

Everything I do here is reactionary to the OP. I'm not trying to proselytize, I'm simply telling my experience and what I know to be true. As I've said, you can't talk someone into a relationship with someone.

As far as increasing my bottom line I have no interest in a church. As far as my restaurants go, I can assure you my testimony hasn't affected the bottom line. You could ask 1000 guests that comes in my stores and maybe 5 would know my story and 50 would know me. In the rare case that someone does hear my story, it has just as good of chance turning someone off as it does making them buy an extra meal from me.



Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #148 on: August 22, 2013, 09:51:47 PM »
I checked out the rest of Bob's website: yeah, no bias there.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #149 on: August 22, 2013, 09:54:55 PM »
Seems to me that if Christianity was self-evident, and there was one true god who wanted everyone to join up,  there would be no other religions. How could there be? The one true religion should be like water, or air. It would not have to compete in the global marketplace with other beliefs, because as soon as people heard about it, they would realize it made sense and immediately adopt it.

It's not self-evident and I never said it was. It's only self-evident if the persons heart is humble and searching for truth.

This fact that it isn't self evident and that we live in a fallen world is what makes other religions possible. People's broken sinful nature makes other religions possible. The devil being the great deceiver makes other religions possible. Our free will makes other religions possible.
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There are no substitutes for water or air, and everyone needs them to survive. The one true religion should be like that. No preaching, convincing or force should be necessary. Missionaries should not have to go around trying to convert people.  Anyone who is not a Christian should be obviously suffering, far less happy and successful than believers, like someone deprived of water or air.

Only if God didn't give us free will and we lived in a perfect world. Only if God didn't create the perfect formula to develop as much love as possible between His children and Himself. Between this response and my previous one your analogy and premise is clearly flawed.
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You don't have to show up on someone's doorstep to persuade them to breathe air--you should not have to persuade anyone into the one true religion! No apologetics or complicated arguments should be needed, because there should not be any logical holes that need plugging.

The holy book should be amazingly transcendent, prophetic and full of useful information with no need for extensive study to comprehend its meaning. No scientific discovery or invention or law should make the religion look silly or outdated. Everything in the religion should match objective reality without question.You should not have to invent a powerful, scheming devil to explain why the world is the way it is. In sum, nobody should have to turn off their brain, "let go and let god", surrender fully to the holy spirit, have the correct attitude of submission, "open their heart'', or be in desperate emotional straits to believe.

Certainly no new religions should be arising after the establishment of Christianity, like Islam or Mormonism or Scientology. And the ones that pre-date, like Judaism and Hinduism should have disappeared as soon as the one true faith came on the scene. Christianity itself should not have to change with the times, either. Truth should always be truth, right?

We can see that is clearly not the case.

It took centuries for the heathens and pagans in Europe to be beaten into submission by Christian rulers. The largest group of Christians is Catholic, and that holds sway mainly in poor countries where indigenous people were conquered, enslaved and forced to convert. The Jews did not buy into the Christ deal, even though they were supposedly right there watching all the miracles. A billion Hindus are largely unimpressed. Buddhists likewise see no need to change. Islam is growing faster worldwide than Christianity.

More people throughout history have rejected the bible than have accepted it as truth. Even the people who accept it have to ignore most of it or else it makes no sense! And it is not like any of the other major religions is any better. Bad things happen to believers of every faith. People have to do everything for themselves, no matter what they believe. Prayer doesn't work, ever, for anyone. This god just doesn't seem to be up to snuff.
 
In contrast to what we would expect, some of the most successful, peaceful and stable regions worldwide are where most people are atheists. Many atheists are familiar with different religious traditions, or even used to practice a faith, so they know what they are rejecting.

If there is an all-powerful god in charge, he is doing a very good job of pretending not to care about any of this. :P

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2013, 09:56:59 PM »
the Bible is the truth.

Support this assertion with evidence. Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.

If I thought that doing so would bring you closer to God, I would. Just don't forget, saying the Bible isn't the truth is also a truth claim that you have to back up.

Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2013, 09:58:52 PM »
the Bible is the truth.

Support this assertion with evidence. Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.

If I thought that doing so would bring you closer to God, I would. Just don't forget, saying the Bible isn't the truth is also a truth claim that you have to back up.

Typical Christian response: if I knew it'd convince you, I would.

Why are you here BUT to convince us.

Idiot.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #152 on: August 22, 2013, 09:59:11 PM »
You can't have a relationship with someone and then say you didn't or believe you didn't.


Incorrect: Santa Claus


Lets start of with a basic question: Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?

If you think you had an actual relationship with Santa, there is no way to the say you didn't and be telling the truth.

Yes people do all those things.

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #153 on: August 22, 2013, 10:00:45 PM »
I knew I'd be told I wasn'a true christian... knew it...  30+ years playing footsie with d'lawd in a conservative, southern baptist church and I wasn't a true christian.  My church would fight you on that (still)
Plus.. I am also closed minded?
Damn, Justin, you aren't a very nice representative for your cause throwing around unfounded allegations against burgereaters you don't know.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here? Can you post the link to the post that I said these things? As far as I know at the time you wrote this I hadn't even responded to your testimony.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #154 on: August 22, 2013, 10:01:32 PM »
This is a very sad thing to read. Why be a closet atheist? I couldn't have imagined that in my past life. You're being dishonest with your wife and children over something you think is a fairy tale. If they came home saying they believed in Jack In The Bean Stalk, would you jump on the band wagon and withhold information from them?

Why don't you come out of the closet?

Perhaps because it would expose him and his family to a very high risk of family dissolution if his partner doesn't want to be married to an "unequally yoked" spouse.  It happens quite frequently, Justin, perhaps not so much in liberal Christianity but definitely in the more fundamentalist and literalist sects.

There is also the danger of being ostracized by the entire community, and even of losing one's job if the boss is a strong believer.

Finally, there are also innumerable teenagers out there who have been disowned and kicked out of the house when they admitted to having lost their faith.  That's why I and many others recommend that people -- Especially minor children with no means of support -- refrain from telling other family members until they become independent of the family (get a job and a new place to live, finish school, and if necessary move to a different part of the country).
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Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #155 on: August 22, 2013, 10:05:05 PM »
Judges have been known to give a child to the Christian spouse even if not the most suitable of the two based on them solely being Christian. Can't have children growing up in loving godless homes.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Astreja

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #156 on: August 22, 2013, 10:07:51 PM »
It's not self-evident and I never said it was. It's only self-evident if the persons heart is humble and searching for truth.

Truth does not require humility; quite the opposite.  I take the attitude "We deserve nothing less than the truth."  One should also not have to grovel before gods in order to obtain it.
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Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #157 on: August 22, 2013, 10:08:49 PM »
The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in God then the opposite.

I think that quote sealed the deal for me on giving you the benefit of the doubt about having been a former atheist. You either don't know what what the term really means or you were as much an atheist as I was once mother teresa. So, I guess I'm playing the "no true atheist" card. :)

Well that's a mistake bc as I've said before I was so sure God didn't exist, I would tell people that the chances of Him existing were so small that it wasn't even worth talking or thinking about.

The only thing that's changed since then is, God came down and got me and I started researching like crazy the real truths of this world. Like the following:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=2423&topic=56

http://www.gotquestions.org/Noahs-ark-animals.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/star-light.html

http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-definition.html

https://bible.org/article/messianic-prophecies

http://www.compellingtruth.org/how-old-is-the-earth.html

Offline Astreja

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2013, 10:13:05 PM »
the Bible is the truth.
Support this assertion with evidence. Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.
If I thought that doing so would bring you closer to God, I would. Just don't forget, saying the Bible isn't the truth is also a truth claim that you have to back up.

Read Hatter's words more carefully, Justin.  He did not say "the Bible isn't the truth"; he requested evidence.  There's a huge difference.

For example, if I say "There's a clock and a laser printer on My desk" and someone asks for evidence, I don't assume that they've said "No, you don't have a clock and a laser printer there."  I just show them.  That's what we're asking you to do:  Show us, through empirical means, that the Bible is a reliable source of information.
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Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2013, 10:18:30 PM »
Well it sounds like you have your mind made up. As unfortunate as that is, especially on an issue that is not provable one way or the other, and is far from clear for people who haven't felt the Holy Spirit or been in a relationship with Jesus Christ, I hope that you'll continue to be as confident and public about your beliefs in your daily life, as you are about them here. I know from experience it can be tough, but to be neutral or silent in my opinion is worse then being wrong.

And you don't have your mind made up? We look at the world in different ways, and the outcome is bound to vary a bit. We both like hamburgers, but I see no truth whatsoever to the Jesus tale, and until is matches reality is some verifiable way, I don't think I will.

Unless I, of course, as a serious atheist, also look for Jesus, like you did. Which ain't likely. I know from various life lessons learned that looking for stuff that isn't there tends to create wrong answers. And I have no reason to voluntarily give myself an "F" for this life.

We both have our minds made up. The difference is this. I have never assumed that reality will match what I hope is true. When my mother died suddenly, I didn't start wailing and telling people that it couldn't be true. I accepted it as fact and dealt with it. When my father was dying painfully of prostate cancer and all the crappy things that go with it, my religious step-mother was praying all the time that he would live another day, while I simply wanted his pain to stop, and I knew the only way was for him to die or at least go into a coma. I had no illusions that he would get better, I didn't pray that he would be miraculously cured, I didn't beg any deities to take away his pain, I didn't gnash my teeth and wail, I simply hoped that he wouldn't suffer long and did what I could to help until he passed. Lots of religious folks involved kept asking their god for favors and telling each other that god was acting in mysterious ways, etc. To me, he was simply dying, and the pretend stuff was useless garbage that got in the way of helping him be comfortable.

I am not one to get on my knees and cry about anything. I have no need to relate to some skydaddy that doesn't exist just so I'll feel better as tears run down my face. I can't relate to the emotions associated with religion, because they are all made up. If I a going to be emotional, I'll wait until there is something to be emotional about. And I am at times emotional, because the circumstances call for it. I was excited about the recent birth of a grand-nephew, for instance. I was ecstatic that a friend recently found out that her cancer was gone after months and months of chemo and radiation. I friend recently found a job after being without work for almost a year. We had a great celebratory dinner. But you will never see me getting myself all happy about my thinking I have a so-called god in my life, or because I imagine a prayer was answered, or any other fantasy.

Yep, my mind is made up too. But I have an advantage. The mind I made up was my own, not the one I had drummed into me by other wrong people.

You're right that I do have my mind made up but I have not only tangible personal proof of my position but a mountain of evidence to back up my faith. It's important to remember that saying God doesn't exist is just as much of a knowledge claim as saying He does, and the claim that He doesn't has the same standard of proof and evidence. So where's your proof that God doesn't exists?

I looked for Jesus in an honest and humble way for twenty seconds and He came and met me just like the Bible said he would. You have no proof that He isn't there so don't be too strong about what you shouldn't do. Also spending a little time searching for Jesus wont get you an F in this life, it might get you an A in the only way an A is possible.

No body drummed anything into me. Quite the opposite. The only One who drummed anything into me was Jesus Christ.

Being as positive as you are about something you can't prove seems illogical to me.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2013, 10:21:34 PM »
The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in God then the opposite.

I think that quote sealed the deal for me on giving you the benefit of the doubt about having been a former atheist. You either don't know what what the term really means or you were as much an atheist as I was once mother teresa. So, I guess I'm playing the "no true atheist" card. :)

Well that's a mistake bc as I've said before I was so sure God didn't exist, I would tell people that the chances of Him existing were so small that it wasn't even worth talking or thinking about.

The only thing that's changed since then is, God came down and got me and I started researching like crazy the real truths of this world. Like the following:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=2423&topic=56

http://www.gotquestions.org/Noahs-ark-animals.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/star-light.html

http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-definition.html

https://bible.org/article/messianic-prophecies

http://www.compellingtruth.org/how-old-is-the-earth.html

Justin,
Are you onl a serious search for truth if you look at one side of any issue? I used to look there as well (one side predisposed to tell me the side god wanted me to hear), but thanks for the slew of links.

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Astreja

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2013, 10:23:18 PM »
You're right that I do have my mind made up but I have not only tangible personal proof of my position but a mountain of evidence to back up my faith.

That evidence may work for you, Justin, but it doesn't work for us.  And I don't see that changing any time soon.

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I looked for Jesus in an honest and humble way for twenty seconds and He came and met me just like the Bible said he would.

Very serious question here, Justin:  What kind of religious education and background do you come from?  Before your disbelieving phase, what did you know of the Christian message and how and from whom did you acquire that information?
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Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2013, 10:24:28 PM »
There was nothing I was more positive in my life about then there being no God, and that was the case until that night in Nashville right before I said the two Our Fathers.

Why were you positive about there being no god?  What was your rationale?

1. I never equated any of the tangible evidence that we all see relating to God to God.
2. The people who claimed to know God around me were hypocrites and couldn't defend their faith.
3. I saw the church as a horrible thing and for the most part it is.
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You have to understand that if that ambiguity wasn't in there God would turn into a cheap thrill or interesting guy to have around. God purposely puts that ambiguity all around Him to give people the opportunity to be hard hearted, skeptical, untrusting, and /or prideful or not. He does it to protect our free will.

Free will to do what?  I don't know about you, but I have to believe something exists before I can be free to choose to follow it or not.  I cannot choose to follow something I don't believe exists.

Free will to humble yourself (not saying you're not humble this is a blanket answer) and search for truth. Free will to soften your heart and seek out the evidence that makes it obvious that God exists. Free will to ask Jesus Christ into your life, repent of your sins and thank Him for not giving up on you.
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By the way, are you depriving me of my free will right now?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Offline Nam

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2013, 10:27:43 PM »
And this is where you really lose the argument, Justin:
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You're right that I do have my mind made up but I have not only tangible personal proof of my position but a mountain of evidence to back up my faith.

Faith is defined as:

A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Meaning in the simplest of terms: Faith is the lack of Evidence.

You lose: goodbye.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #164 on: August 22, 2013, 10:32:52 PM »
So, god, for no apparent reason, chose to give the "born again holy spirit" to this burger guy, so he has the truth now. How did he get so special? Why did he get hit with the holy stick? God has chosen to not give most of the world the "born again holy spirit". Why this burger guy and not the billions of people in China, India or Iran?

Over two-thirds of the planet is not even Christian, let alone "born again".  Most will die practicing the wrong religions, or Thor forbid, no religion at all. And will go to hell for all eternity, according to the "born-again" types. I guess it's part of god's mysterious free will plan, to make his message incomprehensible and his presence undetectable to most people. From the getgo, the ones not given the "born again holy spirit", that is, most of humanity, were destined to burn in hell.....

I am not denying that he was an atheist and had some mystical experience. If he had been in Iran he would be praising Allah. In India he would be thanking Brahma and Vishnu for finally showing him the truth. In Cuba he would be sacrificing a goat and two chickens to Papa Babaluaye. In China he would be thanking the spirits of his ancestors. No matter where he lived, he would assume that his mystical experience was evidence of the truth.

All I can say is, that burger guy should be grateful. He sure is one lucky ducky. &)

I appreciate the tone of your post. I have to say again it has nothing to do with luck. The only reason it happened to me is that while I was an atheist I was sincerely and diligently searching for truth my entire life, and it lead me to Jesus Christ and I humbly asked Him into my life at that point.

Many of you have nothing to worry about. You're humble in your questions and your search. If you continue on that path Jesus will find you.

I'm grateful beyond words, and I will spend the rest of my life serving Jesus Christ out of a feeling of obligation (not force) for the grace He extended to me that He paid for with His life and gave to me for free.

God wants all people to come to Him and while the Bible says the vast majority of people will go to hell, it was not predestined that way. God may have known it was going to happen that way from the beginning, but if He wanted people to have free will, it was out of His hands.

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #165 on: August 22, 2013, 10:37:26 PM »
So Justin, you were an atheist. Think about when you were an atheist and remember that I, as an atheist, don't accept woo, logical fallacies.

Tell me, how do I spererate what you are saying from a mental breakdown or a lie.

You know, evidence. That simple

Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.

From a lie, you can't for sure, and God wouldn't have it any other way. From a mental breakdown, I'd have to ask what other areas of my life would you expect to see signs of that mental breakdown, bc me or others don't see any, quite the opposite really.

There is no evidence I can give you. Only God can do that.  The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in God then the opposite.

If there is no evidence you can give me...then your claim has every bit of weight than someone who states they believe in Hercules or the Flying Spaghetti monster or Santa Claus.

Therefore the statement:

The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in God then the opposite.

has all the merit of

The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in Santa Claus then the opposite.

I even bolded them both so they have equal visual weight. They are the intellectual equivalent.

You are a grown man going on about the importance of believing in Santa Claus as far as I am concerned.

But as I've said to say there isn't a God requires evidence as well. What's yours? I don't get into the evidence game bc it's futile. You can't prove someone into loving someone.

The premise of your statements are wrong. Just bc I didn't give you and evidence doesn't mean there is none. The reality is there is a mountain of evidence to prove not only God's existence but that Jesus is God as well. If you want evidence I've posted several links throughout this thread that are filled with evidence.

On the contrary there is no evidence to suggest Santa is real.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #166 on: August 22, 2013, 10:45:27 PM »
^^^^
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A15&version=NIV

I think that means proof
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #167 on: August 22, 2013, 10:48:19 PM »
1. I never equated any of the tangible evidence that we all see relating to God to God.
Yes, well, attributing things to one's specific supernatural being or beings is what one typically starts doing after one starts believing, right?
2. The people who claimed to know God around me were hypocrites and couldn't defend their faith.
And now you've joined their ranks, at least on the latter point.  I don't know if you're a hypocrite, but you are now actively discrediting your faith, whether you realize it or not.
3. I saw the church as a horrible thing and for the most part it is.
So...what you're saying is that you weren't aware of any of genuine reasons for disbelief.  No wonder you gave up on atheism; you weren't informed/educated on the subject.  #1 describes your change of belief, while #2 and #3 are not rational reasons for unbelief.  Your unbelief was not founded rationally, nor is your belief.  This relates to you, not to any gods.

Free will to humble yourself (not saying you're not humble this is a blanket answer) and search for truth. Free will to soften your heart and seek out the evidence that makes it obvious that God exists. Free will to ask Jesus Christ into your life, repent of your sins and thank Him for not giving up on you.

I do search for truth.  The path you describe entails abandoning any way to determine truth.  It is the ultimate death of truth.  I would have to give up on truth in order to, by your terms, embrace it.  That is impossible.  I am not free to do that.

Not sure what you mean by that.

According to you, God refuses to make himself known to me because it would violate my free will.

You have made yourself known to me.  Therefore, by your own reasoning, you have violated my free will.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Justin Obriecht

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #168 on: August 22, 2013, 10:49:02 PM »
I knew I was an atheist for many reasons. The one that mainly sticks out is thinking about the myth that there will be an afterlife with Jesus/god etc... There is no rationale a person could logically come to in believing in an afterlife let alone one with man made character from a book from once upon a very long time ago...

I'm sorry, but this is just another man with a silver tongue pretending to have all the answers and why our position hasn't been thought about or reasoned. This man is just another liar with a smile. I try to have a smile back but it's ever so increasingly difficult to knowing what they believe to be true is the biggest white lie ever told this century.

These same types of people will go watch a magic show with a great magician showing people being sawed in half, levitation, disappearing acts etc... All these illusions are done with slight of hand and trickery to be sure. This same person understands this and hopefully wouldn't walk away from a David Copperfield show thinking he was the real deal regardless how much emotion and sense of wonder to the mystifying illusions trying proclaim that he is a messiah etc...

In other words, he is perfectly content with doing this "slight of tongue" with a character from long ago but doesn't apply the same "slight of hand" logic to it he would with someone today. Now he is just another guy with a silver tongue for an ancient person proclaimed to be not only a magician of his time but the magician of the universe. And this person expects all of us to believe this because he was moved by a show sort speak...

This to me is a very dangerous and almost schizophrenic way to live your life and view the world but it's accepted because its religion.

Anyways, good luck with your burger joint. There is another religion where the cow is sacred and you would labeled as the devil. But hey, you have Jesus when you meet in him in the afterlife you guys can enjoy a burger or two I suppose.

If you look at this link first (http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence) and then this link (http://www.dartmouthapologia.org/articles/show/110) you'll see that your premise might not be as air tight as you think. If Jesus has been raised from the dead, so will all born again Christians.

What do you think I'm lying about?

I never said atheists weren't well thought out.

I don't think anyone will have heard of David Copperfield or anyone else from our generation 2000 years from now. Just saying.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2013, 06:11:18 AM »
http://www.rbvincent.com/usconstitution.html

The Laws of Nature and Nature's God are not the Laws of Christianity or Christianity's God.

Being endowed by your Creator is not a reference to any specific deity, nor necessarily any deity. I am my daughter's creator. I am not a god.

I've read this drivel before. It's an attempt to insert the square peg of Christianity into the round hole of spirituality -- generic religion, if you will.  The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, but a letter telling King George III to kiss off and go home. It was written in the vernacular of the British. As King of England he was also the head of the Anglican church, so writing this with a religious tone was to let him know that he was not in charge of all people on earth.

Let's take this from your angle and presume that Christianity was, indeed, important in the development of the US Constitution. Since the bible justifies slavery, that's why the founding fathers decided that it was okay to hold blacks as slaves for 100 years until we fought a war to free the slaves. They were sold like property and treated like dirt. They counted as 3/5ths of a man for the purposes of representation, but had no ability to vote. They couldn't own anything and they were ripped apart from their wives and children on a whim. In keeping with true form of selling your daughter into slavery, many young black slave (girls) were sold for their ability to satisfy the sexual desires of their owners.  How's that for being Christian?

Also, true to Christianity which didn't allow women to hold positions in the church, women (at this point, only white women) were not allowed to hold political offices. Hell, they couldn't even vote in most of the country until passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920. Do you think Christian influence is democratic in any way?

Why do you want to play this pointless game?


I wasn't saying anything about their govt, I was simply saying that false religions happened to take hold in those areas. This does not discount Christianity in any way

Yes you were. You stated that the US Constitution was based on Christianity and among the same points stated that other countries have not found the One True GodTM. The heavy implication was that if they had found the One True GodTM their forms of government would be like ours.

Your stepping away from that particular cliff also does not support Christianity in any way whatsoever.


What I'm saying is, Jesus Christ being God or not, isn't affected by whether Christianity has a stronghold in the US. Almost all Atheist scholors know Jesus was a real person, it's His deity they question.

Show me atheist scholars who claim that Jesus Christ was, indeed, a real person and that they only take issue with his status as a deity. I don't know of any. At best you are going to find someone who wants to take a different tact with Christians by conceding that Jesus Christ was truly a human being that existed but had no real powers. I have no idea why anyone would be willing to make such an argument because there is no direct evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed and scant circumstantial evidence for his existence.

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"By the way, call me cynical but an atheist who finds Jesus is a great way to get into a new career. I've thought about doing it myself, but I'm too honest to engage in such blatant manipulation." That was your statement. At best you were passively aggressively questioning my motives and integrity.

Again, you fail to see the point. I do admit to passively-aggressively attacking your public testimony and proselytizing, but not for personal veracity but as a crass attempt at financial gain. I don't indict just you in this, I indict all Christians who do this. If your spirituality and your relationship with Jesus Christ is so important, so tantamount to your existence, you would not be using it for financial gain from others. You would not seek to advertise your business as a christian burger joint or take any value from others while disseminating your information.

In the Bible, Jesus had nothing and preached for nothing. Show me a Christian in public nowadays that preaches and proselytizes for nothing. It doesn't happen. Public Christianity is a for-profit enterprise. What Would Jesus Do?  Well, he would do it for free. Try to copy that one, will you?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.


I never said you called me nuts or implied it. You're quoting me out of context. I was simply saying there's only three rationalizations for my testimony and those are, Jesus is God, I'm nuts, or I'm lying.

Okay, I will agree with you on this, but in an entirely different context, one for which you are not aware and one for which I shall not care to discuss at this time.


Everything I do here is reactionary to the OP. I'm not trying to proselytize, I'm simply telling my experience and what I know to be true. As I've said, you can't talk someone into a relationship with someone.

Here is intellectual bankruptcy showing up on the balance sheet of logic once again.

By its very nature testimony IS proselytization. There is absolutely no reason for testimony whatsoever except to either (1) convince others that you have found the proper religion or proper god and they should follow you, or (2) to continue to edify those who share your religion but have doubts. Testimony is the dog in the field that keeps the sheep under control.


As far as increasing my bottom line I have no interest in a church.

I never stated or implied that you did. I said that you were profiting from your religious viewpoint.

As far as my restaurants go, I can assure you my testimony hasn't affected the bottom line.

I can assure you it has.


You could ask 1000 guests that comes in my stores and maybe 5 would know my story and 50 would know me. In the rare case that someone does hear my story, it has just as good of chance turning someone off as it does making them buy an extra meal from me.

You are correct that you will turn off some people, but only a few. By advertising your faith you attract and gain a particular kind of customer, one that seeks out people of faith because they think that there is some inherent good in somebody who operates a business off Christian principles. Whether they think your food has been blessed or whether the money spent at your establishment will find its way into churches rather than BMWs and McMansions, or whether they believe you wouldn't pickup a burger dropped on the floor and feed it to someone, they will come to you specifically for your religion. I do not think that people in Illinois are somehow more immune from this behavior than people in Maryland or anywhere else.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2013, 06:13:54 AM »
^ Unless I put parentheses around the word "girls" in my previous post, the forum software would reject it. It doesn't like

young black slave girls (italics added only to get it to post)

but is okay with

young black slave (girls)


It vomits specifically on "girls".

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2013, 08:32:10 AM »
People from all over the world have always found Jesus, many who had never heard the name Jesus.

bold mine.  this is a claim.  support it with evidence. 


The thing you're missing is that this country happened to be founded on Christianity and Biblical principals.

That is almost completely incorrect.  It is founded on Greek and Roman principles and Enlightenment philosophy.  There is almost nothing xian about the the US system of governance.

And Christianity happens to be the only true religion. The foundation just happened to not be laid in those other countries in anything but a false god and religion.

ipse dixit.  So says you.  Prove it. 

You make a lot of claims, but you have yet to put up.  We call this "preaching" and it is against the rules.

I have a relationship with Jesus Christ

I've asked you to explain this.  You haven't.  Instead you just keep repeating this.  I find it very rude.

 
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2013, 08:34:04 AM »
How can we be stopping him?  He's omnipotent.  You can't stop an omnipotent being from doing anything.

We have free will and He does not stand in the way of our free will. If He did we would all be robots and that isn't what He wants. He wants us to make the choice whether or not to love Him.

I have to point out, yet again, that you cannot choose to love someone or not to love someone.  Would that that were the case... life would be a thousand times easier if you could simply choose which emotions you wanted to have at any given time.

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That's how all genuine relationships are formed. You have to have the desire to be in that relationship

N.B. that "loving someone" and "being in a relationship with someone" are two different things.  It appears that you're equating the two, here.  (Note, for example, that while you cannot choose to love or not to love someone, you can choose whether to be in a relationship with him.)

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It does not however make Him responsible for everything. Just because He knows what's going to happen doesn't make Him responsible.

Of course it does.  How could it not?

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He is a faultless and blameless perfect loving God. As I've said He created the best possible formula for creating the most love between Him and His creation as possible and that includes evil, death, and everything else in this world. It's important to note that he did this while also causing the least amount of suffering and pain, and yes I know all about the Holocaust and other horrible things.

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Saying "worship me or I'll set you on fire for all eternity" is not a choice.

This forum is proof that it is.

How so?

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Adam and Eve were simply the first ones, they created the initial separation. Every person and generation since has decided and chosen to follow in that rebellion and sin including me and you.

I don't believe that's scriptural, is it?  I thought that sin was something that everyone inherited from A&E and therefore not something that anyone has a choice in.

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I don't even understand what the big deal is since Jesus has died on the cross, and all you have to do to make this all moot is ask Him into your life and repent of your sins.

"And if you don't, I'll set you on fire for all eternity."  That's the big deal.

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Your premise is wrong. God owes us nothing. We are the creation, He is the creator.

By this logic, parents owe their children nothing, either.

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Imagine the clay arguing with the potter.

If clay were sentient and could think and feel, it would have every right to do so.

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You act as if the second chance requires you to cut off your arm. It's the best deal ever, He dies for your sins and you get eternal life.

And I if I don't accept the doctrine, he sets me on fire for all eternity.  Yep, wonderful deal, all right.

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If He was to just wipe the slate clear that would cheapen Him and the relationship He wants with each of us.

How?

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True love comes from getting to know someone

Right, which harkens back to what I said before: love isn't something you can choose to feel, it comes about naturally from getting to know someone.  As pertains this matter, I don't even believe that Yahweh exists at all, so there's the first barrier to my loving him... the second barrier is that he sets people on fire, and while it's just barely possible that the first barrier could be surmounted, the second barrier never could be.  I am not capable of loving someone who sets people on fire for not loving him.  Quite the contrary, if I knew such a person had taken an interest in me, I would be reviewing my personal security arrangements and working with the police to ensure that this person would stay away from me.

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through struggle and hard times, through working at the relationship and a relationship with Jesus is no different.

It's different because Jesus sets people on fire for not believing he exists.  (Are you starting to see a pattern here?)

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Secondly if Hitlers ancestors acted as he did they would be punished, the same way we're punished because we act in the same way our ancestors did.

Right, and that's my point: A&E were the ones who ate the fruit.  We didn't, and yet we're being punished for it.  It's unjust.

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV

Sorry, no.  That is not evidence, that is the claim.

No that's evidence http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

No, it's the claim that requires evidence.

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-The Bible doesn't emanate anything to you bc you wont let it.

False.  I opened that book with all willingness to be "shown the light", and I wasn't.  I know others who have done the same thing.

There's a YouTuber, for example, named BionicDance, who was raised in a nonreligious home and had never read the bible, except for the few passages that most people are familiar with.  A while back, she said that since she was so vocally critical of Christianity, she thought it would be a good idea for her to read the bible, just to have a better idea of what she was being so critical of (an idea I agree with, which is one of the reasons I read the bible myself).  In a video she made, she openly said that she was actually rather nervous about it, because she thought there was a good chance that reading it would actually convert her to Christianity, but she also said that if this was something she was wrong about, she definitely wanted to know about it.  (It doesn't get much more open-minded than that -- I certainly know for a fact that very few Christians are willing to examine evidence that contradicts their faith.)

So she started reading it, and after she finished each book, she made a video about it.  What ended up happening was not that she was converted; her reaction was somewhat similar to mine in that she was alternately bored, offended, and incredulous that anyone could possibly find the book inspiring in any way.  As with me, it served only to solidify her rejection of Christianity -- in her case, she was so completely disgusted with the bible that she never even finished it, she only got up to 1 Kings, I think it was, before she made one last video about the subject saying that she wasn't going to continue with the project because it was a huge waste of her time.

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-Personal testimonies are only worthless to atheists when they involve Jesus Christ. In all other arenas they're critical.

Personal testimonies are worthless when they're not backed up with evidence.  This applies to Jesus and to everything else.

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-There is no such thing as macro evolution.

This is just plain wrong.

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- If the universe wasn't created what happened? What caused the Big Bang?

This is the fallacy known as the argument from ignorance: you cannot imagine where the universe came from, therefore you conclude that Yahweh must have made it.  It doesn't work that way.

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As Bill Craig says "To suggest that things could just pop into being uncaused out of nothing is to quit doing serious metaphysics and to resort to magic.

Same answer.

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It's not about reading the Bible it's about what kind of heart and mind you read it with.

Hey, if the bible were right, believe me, I would want to know about it.  Most of the other people here would probably tell you the same thing.  But I'm going to approach the bible the same way I approach any other truth claim: I'm going to examine the claim, then I'm going to examine the evidence (if any) in support of the claim to try to determine whether the claim is true.  There's no reason I should treat the bible any differently.

This applies not just to any historical claims that the bible makes, but also to any ethical codes it dictates.  For example, if a book says that the proper penalty for a rape is to require the rape victim to marry her rapist, I am going to speak critically of that notion regardless of which book it happens to appear in.

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All research should be done with a mind and a heart and an eagerness to be proven wrong.

No.  Research should be done with eagerness to determine the truth.  Research should never be done with personal desires in mind -- personal desire to be proven right or wrong.  A big part of the point of the scientific method is, in fact, to eliminate personal bias.

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If you keep searching for evidence with the heart you display here you'll find it.

I already have.

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I agree with that the research you did was done against your world view but did you do it in a humble, wanting to be proved wrong way? That's how true scientists do their research.

Answered above.

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Because God refuses to show you a miracle doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Of course it doesn't.  But it certainly tends to lead me in that direction.

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Remember it wouldn't be a perfect formula and their wouldn't be free will if He didn't let the skeptic have a leg to stand on. A very weak leg, but still a leg. The weakness of that leg will be embarrassing for many at the final judgement.

I believe I already gave you a link to Greta Christina's article, "Why Does God Play Hide and Seek?"  Basically, the idea that Yahweh hides from us so as to give us free will is an astoundingly bad argument.  Having information doesn't interfere with our ability to make wise choices.  It is, in fact, exactly the opposite: lacking information is what interferes with our ability to make wise choices, so by hiding from us, Yahweh is actually interfering with our free will, not supporting it.

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Geological evidence shows that there was never a global flood.  The Sinai desert was not occupied by two million people for forty years.  Snakes and donkeys cannot talk.  On and on and on.

I disagree and so does the good doctor. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

And you're both wrong.  *shrug*

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It's hard to explain, and different people probably have different reasons.  For my own part, it sounds condescending, and I don't like being spoken down to.  I'm an intelligent man who has spent many years thinking about and examining such matters -- I mean, jeez, I majored in philosophy, for crying out loud, so when I hear someone saying that they "hope my eyes will be opened" or something like that, it sounds to me like I'm being spoken to like a naive, inexperienced child, which I most definitely am not.  It would be kind of like expecting a dentist not to know what wisdom teeth are, or something.

That seems a little defensive to me.

I suppose maybe it does, but if you had spent as much time, effort, and money as I have studying such matters only to have people tell you that you don't know anything about the topic, you'd probably respond rather defensively as well.

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In order for what they're saying to be offensive you would have to know everything.

Of course I wouldn't.  But their attitude appears to be that I don't know anything, or at least that I know almost nothing, about this topic.  Which is blatantly false.  I know more about this topic than most believers do, in fact -- as do most of the regulars here at WWGHA.

As far as apologetics goes, the last time I head any kind of an argument for or against the existence of God that I had never heard before was about three years ago, and the last time before that would probably have been somewhere around 1993 (in college).  So yes, when someone implies that I'm not well-informed about the subject, I tend to get offended, even if it isn't someone who should necessarily know better.

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The reality is you don't currently know the truth

Physician, heal thyself.

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and those people are actually telling you something you need to hear badly.

I don't need to hear misinformation.

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You are one of the few who doesn't have convenient friends.

Not sure what you mean by this?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian
« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2013, 08:51:36 AM »
While it's certainly true that one can have a belief without being religious about it, the fact of the matter is that by definition, seeking a relationship with a deity is religious in nature.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious

Both definitions 1 and 3a apply to a committed relationship with God, since unlike many human relationships, it cannot be a relationship between equal partners.  If Christians are correct that there is a god out there, it can only be a relationship between a powerless human and a powerful god, which is very lopsided.  At best, it would be the equivalent of a master/servant relationship, and it can never become less lopsided than that no matter what happens.

That may be okay for Christians, but it would not be okay for me, because that attitude limits human potential.  Imagine voluntarily becoming a servant for life for the richest, most powerful person who ever lived.  No matter what you accomplish after that, it's always in the shadow of this rich, powerful person.  It will always and only ever be on their terms.  What they want comes first, and anything you want comes second no matter what.

That may not be what you're seeking, but it is certainly what you'll get.  Because, while you might be dealing with a kind, benevolent master, you're still dealing with a master.  And there's no guarantee that he will ultimately be kind or benevolent in the long run.  Just your belief, which is not a solid base to support anything with, since it's totally immaterial.