Atheist Burger Joint Owner becomes Christian

[Nick]

It is just so hard to save these poor souls without preaching.

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin
here is a link to the forum rules:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.0.html

screwtape mentioned removing them for "preaching" which you will see addressed there

I won't won'tc speak for screw.. but my own two cents: I doubt you'd appreciate or find it to be an open and healthy conversation if we started listing a bunch of zeus-worship phrases or quote summaries from the koran.... even if w  hoped with all our heart you would convert.
 That is  preaching

Oh, I didn't see that at the end of his post. While I'll certainly respect the rules here I have to say I didn't really see that as preachy.

I was simply stating my position. It's hard to have a discussion without each of us understanding the others position.

I could see things being deleted in that vein if my posts were filled with preachy things but I think I've kept it pretty worldly in all of my posts.

As far as posting zeus phrases or koran items it wouldn't bother me in the least. It would be the same as if someone posted the story of the flying spaghetti monster. As an atheist I never understood why my atheist counterparts got so bent out of shape about going to church or having someone throw Bible verses at them, or even reading the Bible. To me it was like getting mad or bothered by someone telling me fiery tales or a 5 year old talking to me.

Even if that one post is seen as a little preachy it would mean a lot to me to have it restored.

[Justin Obriecht]

There is only one God who created man and the universe. He loves us all and only wants a loving relationship with each of us.

So what's stopping him?

He created a perfect atmosphere for Adam and Eve and had a perfect relationship with them until they severely damaged that relationship by sinning in the form of disobeying God.

OK...

This created a separation from God for all future generations.

If so, then it's only because he wanted things to be that way.  (Remember, he's omnipotent; it isn't even possible for something to be any way other than the way he wants it.)

And by the way, why are so many billions of people being penalized because two people ate a piece of fruit?  Even if you hold that eating fruit is evil, shouldn't the only people who get punished for it be the ones who actually eat the fruit? 

In order to restore that relationship God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Why?  Why didn't he just use "Cosmic White Out" or something and erase the mistake that Adam and Eve had made?  Remember, again: talking about an omnipotent being, here.

On the third day Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to about 500 different people over 40 days.

Citation needed...

God's only requirement for restoration and eternal life (as Jesus experienced as the first example and proof of what we can expect) is that we believe that He sent His only Son to die for our sins in our heart of hearts.

Why have a requirement at all?

In order to give no one an excuse, He gave us the Bible, personal testimonies, our conscience, the obvious proof of creation, and periodically exposing most of us to the Gospel throughout out our lives.

Obviously, there are excuses.  The bible does not emanate any kind of divine influence or inspiration, personal testimonies are meaningless, conscience is largely a product of evolution, there is no evidence that the universe was created, and as far as reading the gospels go, well... it may interest you to know that when I finally sat down and read the entire bible cover-to-cover last year, it served only to cement my rejection of Christianity.  If what you're saying is true, that shouldn't even be possible, should it?

For the people who choose not to believe He will simply respect the decision we made here on Earth and allow us to continue on to hell.

You cannot "choose to believe" something.  (If you doubt this, try "choosing to believe" that I have a pet unicorn in my closet.)  That being the case, Yahweh's salvation test is even more unjust than it would appear at first glance.

I'm begging each of you from the bottom of my heart to continue searching for truth in this world. Track it down, never stop researching. Keep an open mind to everything until it's proven impossible to you personally. If you do this with an open mind you will end up at the cross as I did.

Most of the regulars here are former Christians, and they weren't casual about it.  They came to their atheism largely by pursuing the tracking and researching and open-mindedness that you are begging them to embrace.  Just saying.

May the peace of Christ rule in your hearts!

Please do not say things like this.  Most of us are uncomfortable with it at best and highly offended by it at worst.

Can someone give me a step by step on how to partially quote items like this?

[Azdgari]

Just type (quote) at the start of the text you want to quote, and (/quote) at the end.

Except use square brackets, [like] [these] [ones], instead of the (curved) (brackets).

That will put the text between those tags within a quote box.  I can sure see why you'd want to do that for a response to Pianodwarf's post!

[pianodwarf]

Can someone give me a step by step on how to partially quote items like this?

Hi, Justin:

There's a test area where you can fool around with the quote function (as well as the forum's other features) to become comfortable using them.  The Test Area is here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html

If you're familiar with how HTML code works at all, you'll find the code for the forums is pretty similar.  You should also use the "Preview" button at the bottom of the composition window to ensure that the post you're creating comes out looking the way you want it to.

If you have further problems learning how to use the forum's functions, please speak up, and one or more of the regulars here will show you some sample code to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish.

[Justin Obriecht]

Had the chance to read the testimony... put away my popcorn.  Same old magic stuff I have heard and recited myself for years before deconverting.

Justin, if you'd grown up Hindu or Muslim, it would not have been jeezus blinking that light.

I wonder if your previous "intensely atheist mind" attributed odd events to magical deities as well? For example, I get up every morning and there is a newspaper at the end of my driveway. I never have seen it placed there by anyone and I do not subscribe to the paper, yet there it has been year after year every week day in a city where you must pay to receive a paper. Think jeezus/zeus/mithras/allah puts it there or could I explain it another way?  At times, I have had intense feelings and once a dizziness thinking it could be aliens. Your thoughts, as a former staunch atheist?

I hope you stop back by...

1. Can you tell me about your story so I have a frame of reference here Donny? (I know I'm new but I have to take Lebowski quotes when I can, no offense at all)

2. Nothing I've experienced over the past 1.5 years has been congruent with any other religion and has been perfectly congruent, causal and tangible with the Bible and Jesus Christ.

3. My previous intensely atheist mind didn't attribute anything with God, or any deity or magic or ghosts or anything supernatural or unexplained by science.  If you couldn't prove it or it wasn't in front of me it didn't exist.

Again sorry for the impersonal bullet points.

Hello again. Sorry, I doubted your return (no pun intended).

Let's keep with the bullet points:

1. Never saw Lebowski, but my story as it is would be here -

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24916.0.html

- I'm pretty new here, having been a xian for over 30 years and finally shedding all of that 6+ months ago - no pain, no trauma, no hating god, etc. just facing up to my doubts and thinking critically after a long sleep.

So have you ever felt the Holy Spirit? Would you say you had a relationship with Jesus Christ during those 30 years?

2. I really have no idea what you mean by that phrase you have used numerous times "...perfectly congruent, causal and tangible with the Bible..."  It sounds like a $6 burger, but it really has no meat until you explain what you mean by it.  If you are saying your experiences square with the bible - well, I'd expect a xian to say that.  My personal version of god was always strangely like me too in my theistic days.  He liked the same music, believed the same theology, planned out the same eschatology and darned if he didn't share my version of soteriology as well.

I think the easiest way i can explain it is if I go back to the first month after I was Born Again.

I figured ok, if all God wanted was for me to humble myself, come off my staunch atheistic views just little, and say those two Our Fathers and He would come into my life, He must be pretty logical, personal and sensitive to what I do in my life.

You have to understand, saying those two our fathers may not seem like a big deal, and they may not be a big deal to others who may say them to ask God into their lives, but for me it was admitting to God that something was possible that I thought was impossible and I was very genuine in my crack of doubt that had creeped into my life in the form of their could be a God.

So that told me that He should give me other direction, that the Holy Spirit I could feel inside me should guide me and lead me in certain ways. So I was very sensitive to it. And when I felt like God was telling me something I would follow it no matter what. The thing is that each time I did, not only was what He was asking me to do congruent with the Bible, but the actions I took had amazing outcomes that I could have never predicted.

Now it's important to understand that not every prompting from the Holy Spirit has a great outcome or even an outcome that we can understand as I quickly learned. But early on God was building my faith and doing amazing things. The thing is they're always congruent with the Bible and God's attributes. And whether we understand them or not they're always in our best interest.

I hope that clears it up.

I also have to say that the things God has asked me to do and continue to ask me to do are completely contrary to everything I've ever done in my life or many times what I want to do at all. This contradicts the way you experienced with God. My desires, behaviors and the way I see the world has completely changed since the Holy Spirit has begun dwelling inside of me and it's not bc God or the Bible tells me to do them, it's bc I feel obligated to do them, I want to respect my relationship with Christ, out of what He has done for me.

3. I don't see that as an "intensely atheist mind" you had there - seems more like a rational mind.  Essentially, you gave up rationality for "faith" - sorta the opposite, right?

It is an atheistic mind because saying there is no God is just as much of a truth claim as saying there is. No one can prove either side conclusively and that's exactly how God wants it. The only thing that can prove God to anyone is God Himself. I assure you my mind is more rational now then at any other time in my life.


Thanks for your response and I'd be frequenting your burger spot too, were they here in god's  zeus' hermes' cattle country (Oklahoma)

[nogodsforme]

Hi everyone; your resident black dreadlocked atheist commie mommy here. Y'all have said nearly all the relevant things I would have said to the burger guy --although in not nearly as witty and incisive a style as mine.

One thing nobody has brought up. He said when he was an unbeliever,  he responded to religious people with goodness in his heart. Unlike most atheists. Huh?

I doubt that most of the people he knew were atheists-- in the US that is not even possible! And we have as much goodness in our hearts (along with blood, arteries, cholesterol, spare valentine candy) as anyone else. Does he make a low-carb burger option?

I would like to reiterate one point: it is not surprising that a guy in the US would decide that Jesus Christ was the main dude. When I briefly returned to religion back in college (because my life was falling apart and also to chase this cute Christian boy) I, too, decided it had to be Jesus Christ speaking to my soul. It would be very surprising, even evidence worth researching, if either of us had heard from gods we had zero previous knowledge of, like Durga, Shango or Ahura Mazda.


Rationality returned eventually, except a brief new age interlude when again, not coincidentally, my life was in crisis. And he had to diss on the JW's, didn't he? I might be showing up on his doorstep this Saturday morning if I had not become an unbeliever. He should be happy I am no longer religious.

And if some god wants to materialize in my bedroom someday, I would much rather Jesus stay home. Next time the hot white guy with long blonde hair better be Thor....

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin,

Many of the regulars here will tell you in much more specific terms than I that preaching to us here will NOT garner you much favor.  If you assume you are talking to a bunch of god hating folks who've never darkened the door of a church or cracked open a bible, you'd not only be hopelessly wrong but downright condescending.

Many were "true" christians for many years (like myself) and many, I would wager, have forgotten more about the bible than you have learned at this stage in your journey.  I and many here have read that holy book cover to cover - many times.  I know your lingo and I know you think you are dealing with people who have never heard or considered what you are saying.  I'd urge you to read some posts here - not just this thread (although it may run you off when you see what you are going to be up against).

Good luck

I tried not to assume anything coming into this and I purposely didn't read other posts so I would garner no preconceived notions. I apologize if that came off preachy but I was simply stating my position.

I can also say that I'm very impressed with the level of rational and logic here. I don't get the God hating vibe at all and it's refreshing. I can tell that I'm dealing with well thought out people and as I said in my first post, "thanks for not being luke warm".

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin, thanks for your response. We continue to disagree but both of us prefer that over having one of us forced to believe something we don't want to.

Couldn't agree more!

But you obviously ran with the wrong atheist crowd. Again, I'm not the least bit mad at your god, or any other. Non-existent entities are sort of hard to get pissed at. And I think that most atheists on this site would agree. Right folks? Your claim otherwise makes us a bit suspect about your claim of atheism. Might it be more accurate to say you weren't a believer because you didn't like the guy, not because you didn't believe in him. Which is not atheism, but rather rejectionism or some other differently-labeled belief.

I feel you on this but it's hard to deny that there are a lot of angry, bitter, resentful atheists out there. I totally see your personal logic as it was the same as mine. I also agree that this site seems to be full of thinking atheists which is really nice.

I truly believed in my heart that there was no God. Zero mad at Him. Zero in love with the devil. They did not exist in my world at all. Bc I knew I couldn't prove there was no God, as is conveniently the case for the most important question in the world, my favorite thing to tell people was a saying I made up that goes like this "There is such a small chance of there being a God, that it isn't worth thinking about or changing anything you do in your life."

However, that is speculation on my part, and I don't pretend that it is accurate. But I assure you, we actual atheists aren't the least bit upset with your deity.

In the meantime, if you could explain how one can be mad at something that doesn't exist, that would be appreciated.

And until a god shows up that isn't big on playing hide and seek, I'm pretty sure I won't change. I'm not the least bit interested in asking for any sort of salvation. Nobody has found a way to convince me that it would be a good idea or a realistic goal. Or even interest me in the church potlucks. So methinks we'll have to agree to disagree.

You have to understand that He developed it that way on purpose. If He was obvious we wouldn't love Him. This world is a perfectly worked out Devine equation that produces the most love between our Creator and us. An equation that forces the people who love Him to work hard to get to know Him just any other relationship. An equation that makes it impossible for one person to convince another bc He doesn't care if you believe, He wants a relationship. No person can force another person into a loving relationship. God's only purpose for creating us and this world is to develop as many loving, genuine relationships between us and Him.

He respects our desire not to believe in Him or have a relationship with Him. Any thing less would make us robots.

When I was a child, I was told there was a god and I believed it simply because I had no reason not to. I went to church and everything. That would have been a great time for your god to show himself to me in some meaningful way. If he is real, he missed his chance. As an omnipotent dude, he could have done something noticeable by me as a child and I might have reacted to the stories very differently. He would have to come to my house and have dinner now to convince me that he exists.

The same happened to me. As I said I started out catholic, went to church and by the time I was 16 or so I was like "ya right, I don't see any sign of this Guy" My story wasn't over and either is yours. You have to understand that pure Christianity is very hard to find. The catholic church is a demonically controlled entity that is designed to keep people from a RELATIONSHIP with God and in the end push them away from Him. The same can be said for almost all of the denominations.

He has never missed His chance. As you should expect, our understanding is not the same as the God who created the universe. If you truly want to find Him, He'll find you. But the key is humility and sincerely wanting a relationship with Him.

He's welcome any time. Or he can choose some other path to me. But whatever he does, it has to be more than merely implying that he exists. If I am important to him, he can overlook his silly rules and do something proactive for my soul. Because he squandered his chance to get me back in the 50's. His bad.

That's an awesome attitude. One I can assure you He respects and adores. He will do much more than imply that He exists as He has in my life. You're very important to Him. Importance that man can't even comprehend. Religion = rules, Chrisitanity = relationship.

We also have to remember that God owes us nothing. He already gave us life and everything we have. However He will give us something (eternal life, a relationship with the only Living God, and blessings while we're here) if we'll just believe from the mountain of evidence that He's telling the truth when He says He sent His only Son to die for our sins.

Unless he isn't real. Which I am as sure as one can be that is is not. And I even have proof. He could cause me to die before I finish typing this sentence, or before I press "Post", and for a brief second (if he were to allow it) I would know I was wrong. But he didn't do it during that sentence, nor during this one, or before I pressed "Post". I invite him to do it. I give him my complete permission to do me in with a heart attack or some other quick (and I don't care how painful) death or disability that would prevent the posting of this response.

That's assuming he wants you to die and from your previous para, I don't think that's the case. As you can imagine the God of the universe doesn't like being tested. He doesn't like little games. He want's sincere desire for you to want Him and have Him in your life. 

He owes you nothing, not proof, not signs. Why would He ever prove His existence to someone who doesn't believe he exists. He loves and respects us enough to let us believe what we want. He doesn't beg, that would only cheapen Him and His Son.

If he is real, he's a pussy. Afraid of being seen, afraid of being "known", whatever. He's a pussy. I could respect that if he weren't simultaneously so demanding. But in fact, it is the humans that invented him and the humans that carry on in his name that do the demanding, and like I said, I'm not too happy that I share the planet with the worst of that crowd. But your god is too incompetent to get my attention. He should be ashamed.

Afraid is the wrong term. He know's that being seen doesn't create real love. He knows real love only comes from working to get to know someone. He's certainly not afraid of being known bc you can learn all about Him in the Bible. You can get to know Him better by studying the Bible then you can your spouse.

He's not demanding. Religion is demanding. You can't prove humans invented Him and I can assure you they didn't. But you are right that it is the humans who want to act as if they are God (pope, priests, cardinals and many more) do the demanding.

I'm not happy that I share the planet with them either. They're the ones who drove me away from God. Their hypocrisy and counter Biblical teaching. Don't let people get in the way of searching out a relationship with God. He's not going to get your attention until you truly want Him to.

Excuse me while I live long enough to post this. One last chance god. Stop me now.


edit - fixed quotes, I think
~Screwtape

[Justin Obriecht]

I'm begging each of you from the bottom of my heart to continue searching for truth in this world. Track it down, never stop researching. Keep an open mind to everything until it's proven impossible to you personally. If you do this with an open mind you will end up at the cross as I did.

Justin, I think My mind is reasonably open.  I've practised or dabbled in multiple religions since I was a kid, going though a final short burst of Ásatrú (reconstruction of the old Norse beliefs) before settling into a comfortable agnostic atheist position.

The fact that you're dialoging with me and have dabbled in multiple religions does show that you have an open mind. However an open mind isn't what is required for a relationship with Jesus Christ. The only thing that's required is a genuine burning to have Him in your life. Without this it doesn't matter where you look, what you read or how open your mind is. Without the strong desire to have Him in your life nothing else matters.

Christianity just doesn't resonate with Me.  It never has, and I've known the Bible stories for nearly 50 years now.  I don't like the narrative and I don't like the characters, but I especially don't like the theology.

• I'm not willing to pretend that I was born evil and fit only for the flames of Hell, and I certainly can't view other people in that light.
• Neither can I wrap My mind around the oft-mentioned idea that a god cannot tolerate imperfect beings, cannot associate with them, and must bar them forever from its presence.
• Finally, the idea of substitutionary atonement through a blood sacrifice is absolutely, unconditionally abhorrent to Me.  I cannot and I shall not accept the purported sacrifice of Jesus.

My road to truth doesn't lead to the cross; quite the contrary.  If for some reason I do end up there, I'll be the One who shoos away the Roman legions, rescues the young rabbi and the two thieves and bandages their wounds, then smashes up all the crosses and sets them ablaze so that we can roast marshmallows and make S'mores for 5000. 

That's unfortunate bc the Bible is the truth and all the other things you mentioned is the only way to salvation.

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin, I noticed the discussion of your illness with the strep throat and the tingling, and another possibility could be post-infectious encephalomyelitis (breakdown of the myelin sheaths in the brain due to an infection).

How does that come about? Does it repair itself or with what the docs prescribed for the strep throat, penicillin?

It may be a one-off event, but it would be a good idea to rule out early multiple sclerosis.  If you get tingling sensations, fatigue, dizziness, muscle spasms, unexplained jabs of pain  or have problems with your vision, please get referred to a Neurologist and have an MRI of the brain and cervical spine to make sure it isn't something more serious.

I haven't experienced any of that. My health is better then it's ever been.

(Disclaimer:  I am not a Doctor but I do work for Neurologists, including MS specialists.)

[Justin Obriecht]

There is only one God who created man and the universe. He loves us all and only wants a loving relationship with each of us.

So what's stopping him?

Us

He created a perfect atmosphere for Adam and Eve and had a perfect relationship with them until they severely damaged that relationship by sinning in the form of disobeying God.

OK...

This created a separation from God for all future generations.

If so, then it's only because he wanted things to be that way.  (Remember, he's omnipotent; it isn't even possible for something to be any way other than the way he wants it.)

That's not true bc He wanted to give us free will. He didn't just want a bunch of robots walking around worshipping Him. He wanted people to worship Him under their own free will. He wanted them to accept the free gift of salvation willingly.

It's our free will that created that separation but out of His abundant grace (unmerited favor) He sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins to give us each a second chance individually. It's the best deal of all time.

And by the way, why are so many billions of people being penalized because two people ate a piece of fruit?  Even if you hold that eating fruit is evil, shouldn't the only people who get punished for it be the ones who actually eat the fruit?

Because before that there was no sin. When they sinned, the world was poisoned by sin. It was no ordinary event. Instantly Adam and Eve knew they were naked, knew the difference between right and wrong, and in turn started acting as God the same way we do today.   

In order to restore that relationship God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Why?  Why didn't he just use "Cosmic White Out" or something and erase the mistake that Adam and Eve had made?  Remember, again: talking about an omnipotent being, here.

Bc this is the most effective way for Him to show His grace. Which in turn creates a situation where His created beings can't even comprehend how much He loves them and in turn if they're willing will love Him all the more. This world is really a perfect formula for creating as much love between God and man as possible.

On the third day Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to about 500 different people over 40 days.

Citation needed...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV

God's only requirement for restoration and eternal life (as Jesus experienced as the first example and proof of what we can expect) is that we believe that He sent His only Son to die for our sins in our heart of hearts.

Why have a requirement at all?

Bc this is part of the perfect formula. The above requires people to humble themselves and to seek out the truth even the whole world is telling them the opposite. If He gave it away it would mean nothing to us. Only things that are earned through trusting and having faith in something or someone is worth anything.

In order to give no one an excuse, He gave us the Bible, personal testimonies, our conscience, the obvious proof of creation, and periodically exposing most of us to the Gospel throughout out our lives.

Obviously, there are excuses.  The bible does not emanate any kind of divine influence or inspiration, personal testimonies are meaningless, conscience is largely a product of evolution, there is no evidence that the universe was created, and as far as reading the gospels go, well... it may interest you to know that when I finally sat down and read the entire bible cover-to-cover last year, it served only to cement my rejection of Christianity.  If what you're saying is true, that shouldn't even be possible, should it?

There's excuses here, but none when you come face to face with God on the final judgement. All of the things you listed are only that way bc of your potential preconceived notions, hardened heart or unwillingness to give it a chance . It's not about reading the Bible it's about what kind of heart and mind you read it with. All research should be done with a mind and a heart and an eagerness to be proven wrong. Most research should be done on things that go against our current understanding, beliefs or positions.

For the people who choose not to believe He will simply respect the decision we made here on Earth and allow us to continue on to hell.

You cannot "choose to believe" something.  (If you doubt this, try "choosing to believe" that I have a pet unicorn in my closet.)  That being the case, Yahweh's salvation test is even more unjust than it would appear at first glance.

It's true that you can't choose to believe something that isn't true, can be proven false or something there is no proof or evidence of. That certainly isn't the case with Christianity or God. Just Google " Christian Apologetics" and that will quickly become clear. Google "Fine tuning of the universe" or "the moral arguement for God" Or "William Layne Craig". The most brilliant atheists understand that there is a world of evidence of God, the crusifixian and almost all events in the Bible. Nothing in the Bible can be proved false.

I'm begging each of you from the bottom of my heart to continue searching for truth in this world. Track it down, never stop researching. Keep an open mind to everything until it's proven impossible to you personally. If you do this with an open mind you will end up at the cross as I did.

Most of the regulars here are former Christians, and they weren't casual about it.  They came to their atheism largely by pursuing the tracking and researching and open-mindedness that you are begging them to embrace.  Just saying.

Christian is very broad term. I'd challenge any of them to tell me that they're felt the Holy Spirit or had a relationship with God. Religion is the great deceiver!

May the peace of Christ rule in your hearts!

Please do not say things like this.  Most of us are uncomfortable with it at best and highly offended by it at worst.

I understand, it wont happen again.

But I have to ask why would a quote from a fiery tale make someone uncomfortable or offend someone? It would be like someone coming up to me and telling me "may the peace of Peter Pan be in your heart" and me having any reaction to it at all.

I hope to be on again soon. Until then I want everyone to know that I really appreciate and find value in this dialog. I really appreciate the respectful way everyone has handled this conversation. I also want to apologize for some of the things that I now know to be offensive and I will do everything in my power to not have it happen again.

[Astreja]

The fact that you're dialoging with me and have dabbled in multiple religions does show that you have an open mind. However an open mind isn't what is required for a relationship with Jesus Christ. The only thing that's required is a genuine burning to have Him in your life.

Not only do I not have a "burning desire" to have Jesus in My life, I have no desire at all.

Without the strong desire to have Him in your life nothing else matters.

Perhaps to you, Justin, but you aren't in a position to decide what matters to other people.

That's unfortunate bc the Bible is the truth and all the other things you mentioned is the only way to salvation.

Then I reject salvation.

[Azdgari]

Justin, every post you've made lately has had the same flaw in quoting:  You've missed the presence of the automatic quote tag that gets put in when you click the "quote" button to begin your post.  It begins with (quote author=...), and you don't need to then add a (quote) after that one.  You've doubled up the quote tags at the start of every post, and as a result the opening tag never closes and the whole post shows up as a quote.

[Astreja]

How does that come about? Does it repair itself or with what the docs prescribed for the strep throat, penicillin?

Penicillin doesn't directly repair nerves, but it can stop an infection and allow swelling to go down.

I did a quick read-up on infectious encephalomyelitis, and now think it's unlikely in your case because it tends to affect kids rather than adults.  MS is still on the table, so please see your doctor right away if you experience a relapse of anything odd related to the nervous system.

[ParkingPlaces]

Justin

You really need to work on your quoting. Your response to me was a mess because you didn't do things right. We have a nice little thread that tells you all about how to do it. You can find it here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html

You were nice enough to tell me that I shouldn't test the lord, and that he apparently still wanted me alive (when I got all testy on the dude) A six year old drowned in the river near where I live last week. Was this because the kid knew enough not to test god and got snuffed? Did the lord want the kid dead? How come I can exercise my free will and ask god to kill me, but the kid didn't get any free will or anything else except lungs full of water?

And a god that allows disparities that big in life is no god at all. Which is exactly what I believe in. (I don't actually expect a response. No christian on this planet is capable of giving a cogent one. And I've heard more excuses than I care to deal with.)

[ParkingPlaces]

The fact that you're dialoging with me and have dabbled in multiple religions does show that you have an open mind. However an open mind isn't what is required for a relationship with Jesus Christ. The only thing that's required is a genuine burning to have Him in your life. Without this it doesn't matter where you look, what you read or how open your mind is. Without the strong desire to have Him in your life nothing else matters.

Apparently you were a rarity. An atheist with a burning desire to have Jesus save you. Methinks the rest of us are a little less concerned about such things.

As for me, gobs of things matter. Just not the god stuff.

[pianodwarf]

There is only one God who created man and the universe. He loves us all and only wants a loving relationship with each of us.

So what's stopping him?

Us

How can we be stopping him?  He's omnipotent.  You can't stop an omnipotent being from doing anything.

This created a separation from God for all future generations.

If so, then it's only because he wanted things to be that way.  (Remember, he's omnipotent; it isn't even possible for something to be any way other than the way he wants it.)

That's not true bc He wanted to give us free will.

And being omniscient, he knew how we would choose, which makes him responsible for everything that has ever happened or will ever happen.  If, ten million years from now or whatever, the field of genetics has advanced to the point where you can determine, with 100% certainty, that any children you bear will turn into mass murderers, then any murders that happen as a result of your deciding to bear children will be your fault, not your children's, because you had enough information to know that you should not have procreated in the first place.  Same with Yahweh and the universe.

He didn't just want a bunch of robots walking around worshipping Him. He wanted people to worship Him under their own free will. He wanted them to accept the free gift of salvation willingly.

Saying "worship me or I'll set you on fire for all eternity" is not a choice.

It's our free will that created that separation

Nope.  Adam and Eve did it.  Yahweh is just punishing everyone for it.  It absolutely amazes me that Christians can believe that this is just.  If you were given the electric chair because you had an ancestor in Sparta who murdered someone, you would be outraged beyond the power of language to express, but you think Yahweh doing the same thing is fair and proper?  Sorry, no -- I absolutely refuse to take responsibility for anyone's actions other than my own, and if Yahweh insists on doing otherwise, well, then -- he's an asshole.

but out of His abundant grace (unmerited favor) He sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins to give us each a second chance individually. It's the best deal of all time.

It's not a "second chance" for us because we never even had a first chance.  And, again: Yahweh could have just said, "I forgive everyone".  So much easier.  No misery or suffering required by anyone.

And by the way, why are so many billions of people being penalized because two people ate a piece of fruit?  Even if you hold that eating fruit is evil, shouldn't the only people who get punished for it be the ones who actually eat the fruit?

Because before that there was no sin. When they sinned, the world was poisoned by sin. It was no ordinary event. Instantly Adam and Eve knew they were naked, knew the difference between right and wrong, and in turn started acting as God the same way we do today.

That's not an answer.  Please explain, clearly and explicitly, why you believe it is just to penalize anyone for the actions of their ancestors.  You know, I hate to go Godwin here, but Adolph Hitler has living ancestors today, and no one would think of giving any of them the death penalty or a prison sentence or anything for what Hitler did.

In order to restore that relationship God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins.

Why?  Why didn't he just use "Cosmic White Out" or something and erase the mistake that Adam and Eve had made?  Remember, again: talking about an omnipotent being, here.

Bc this is the most effective way for Him to show His grace.

Seems like it would be a lot easier and less painful for him to simply forgive everyone and create a global sign for everyone to see and understand -- not to mention more effective.  If the method you describe is so effective, why are two-thirds of the people on the earth not Christians?

Which in turn creates a situation where His created beings can't even comprehend how much He loves them and in turn if they're willing will love Him all the more. This world is really a perfect formula for creating as much love between God and man as possible.

Again: "love me or I'll set you on fire forever" is not a choice, and even if it were, it would not be a choice offered out of love.  When a human being does something like that, we usually call him a stalker or a maniac or something.

On the third day Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to about 500 different people over 40 days.

Citation needed...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV

Sorry, no.  That is not evidence, that is the claim.

God's only requirement for restoration and eternal life (as Jesus experienced as the first example and proof of what we can expect) is that we believe that He sent His only Son to die for our sins in our heart of hearts.

Why have a requirement at all?

Bc this is part of the perfect formula.  The above requires people to humble themselves and to seek out the truth even the whole world is telling them the opposite.

Why is that so important?  Oh, here we go:

If He gave it away it would mean nothing to us. Only things that are earned through trusting and having faith in something or someone is worth anything.

That's not true.  I'll admit that when you work for something, it does often "taste sweeter" than if it's just handed to you, but if someone gave me a free Lamborghini, I would still value it.  A lot.

In order to give no one an excuse, He gave us the Bible, personal testimonies, our conscience, the obvious proof of creation, and periodically exposing most of us to the Gospel throughout out our lives.

Obviously, there are excuses.  The bible does not emanate any kind of divine influence or inspiration, personal testimonies are meaningless, conscience is largely a product of evolution, there is no evidence that the universe was created, and as far as reading the gospels go, well... it may interest you to know that when I finally sat down and read the entire bible cover-to-cover last year, it served only to cement my rejection of Christianity.  If what you're saying is true, that shouldn't even be possible, should it?

There's excuses here, but none when you come face to face with God on the final judgement. All of the things you listed are only that way bc of your potential preconceived notions, hardened heart or unwillingness to give it a chance .

You do not know that.  I've been studying such matters for about a good 25 years now, so I'm not simply dismissing them because I'm not interested or anything.

And in the end, if, as you say, I end up coming face to face with Yahweh for a final judgment, well... my only comment to him is going to be, "If you wanted me to believe in you, you should have made your existence just a tad more obvious.  The fact that I spent my life not believing in you is your fault, not mine, and now you're going to set me on fire for all eternity because of your mistake?"

It's not about reading the Bible it's about what kind of heart and mind you read it with. All research should be done with a mind and a heart and an eagerness to be proven wrong. Most research should be done on things that go against our current understanding, beliefs or positions.

I'm not "eager" to be proven wrong... I doubt that very many people are.  However, when presented with proper evidence, I am perfectly willing to do so.

Reading the entire bible was, in fact, "research done going against my current understanding, beliefs, and positions".  That's almost quintessential for an atheist, really.  And, as I said, it served only to cement my rejection of Christianity.  As Astreja sometimes likes to say, "If you want me to believe that what this book says is true, please show me a snake that can talk.  Until then, we don't have much to discuss."  One could say the same thing about all kinds of other things for which there should be significantly more evidence (e.g., the exodus -- there should be tons of evidence of that if it happened, and there's actually none at all).

For the people who choose not to believe He will simply respect the decision we made here on Earth and allow us to continue on to hell.

You cannot "choose to believe" something.  (If you doubt this, try "choosing to believe" that I have a pet unicorn in my closet.)  That being the case, Yahweh's salvation test is even more unjust than it would appear at first glance.

It's true that you can't choose to believe something that isn't true

You cannot "choose" to believe anything at all, whether it's true or false.  The human mind simply does not work that way.  Beliefs arise in human beings by various methods, probably the two biggest ones being childhood indoctrination and being presented with evidence.  Simply choosing to have a belief, however, is not possible.

Just Google " Christian Apologetics" and that will quickly become clear. Google "Fine tuning of the universe" or "the moral arguement for God" Or "William Layne Craig".

I urge you to use caution when saying things like this.  The people at this site are far more erudite regarding this topic than you appear to realize.  We know who William Lane Craig is -- notice, for example, that I even know how to spell his name, which you do not.  We're also quite familiar with the fine tuning argument, the moral argument, and probably everything else about apologetics that has ever been discussed.

We are not atheists because we haven't examined such arguments.  We are atheists because we have, and found them lacking.

The most brilliant atheists understand that there is a world of evidence of God

Obviously we don't, or we wouldn't be atheists.

the crusifixian and almost all events in the Bible.

Actually, very few of the events written about in the bible can be verified.  And:

Nothing in the Bible can be proved false.

This is simply not true.  Geological evidence shows that there was never a global flood.  The Sinai desert was not occupied by two million people for forty years.  Snakes and donkeys cannot talk.  On and on and on.

I'd challenge any of them to tell me that they're felt the Holy Spirit or had a relationship with God.

Then you'd better be ready to face a good deal of hostility.  I've seen their reactions when they are told that they "weren't really Christians" or "didn't really feel anything in their hearts" or anything else along those lines.  They get pretty angry.  And I don't blame them.

Religion is the great deceiver!

THAT'S for sure.

But I have to ask why would a quote from a fiery tale make someone uncomfortable or offend someone?

It's hard to explain, and different people probably have different reasons.  For my own part, it sounds condescending, and I don't like being spoken down to.  I'm an intelligent man who has spent many years thinking about and examining such matters -- I mean, jeez, I majored in philosophy, for crying out loud, so when I hear someone saying that they "hope my eyes will be opened" or something like that, it sounds to me like I'm being spoken to like a naive, inexperienced child, which I most definitely am not.  It would be kind of like expecting a dentist not to know what wisdom teeth are, or something.

I hope to be on again soon. Until then I want everyone to know that I really appreciate and find value in this dialog. I really appreciate the respectful way everyone has handled this conversation. I also want to apologize for some of the things that I now know to be offensive and I will do everything in my power to not have it happen again.

I'm glad you're here, and I hope you're finding the conversations interesting and informative.

[neopagan]

So have you ever felt the Holy Spirit? Would you say you had a relationship with Jesus Christ during those 30 years?

Justin, your quoting was giving me fits, so I will address your question to me in your favored bullet points.

1. Ok, I fear where this one is going - the classic "no true scotsman" logical fallacy.  But I will bite...
 
2. That being said, I will give you a 100% honest answer, but having been in your shoes before, I am afraid it will mean nothing.

 Simple answer - "YES" I thought I felt the HS and I definitely would have and did profess a relationship with Christ for those 30+ years.  I was active in my church(es), taught many a Sunday school class and either led or attended or read more bible studies than I can count. I prayed every day, read the bible through several times, read it almost daily, confessed sin, witnessed, led others to christ, you name it...  I realized "coming to faith" and "having faith" are choices, just like a chice to wear blue socks today.  There's no magic involved, you just have to choose to suspend logic and rationality to hold onto faith, since there is nothing there.  I didn't like losing my faith, it felt bad/ I fought it - but I'm glad I did and I'm a better person for it.

 I can still reproduce those "feelings" or HS leadings/still small voices/warm fuzzies or whatever you like, if I put my mind to it.  However, one part of my deconversion was the realization this supposed relationship with christ that is like no other - truly is... it's like NO other relationship.  I asked myself what other relationships do I have with someone I have never met/spoke to/saw/touched/engaged with in some way/etc and such a person has never responded directly to me in a tangible/audible/etc way??  Answer - zero.  (I know plenty of believers hear all kinds of things in their head/heart - please define how that's different from imagining or hallucinating).  Yet, I'm to worship, love and desire such a thing?? Sorry, I'll take Santa instead - he makes more sense.

3. Finally, I am a closeted atheist - I am married to a believing spouse and have believing children. We go to church together and they participate in various church functions as well - all of my family claiming to know christ.  I am indistinguishable from the thousands of other "believers" in the large church I attend.  However, I do not openly "lie" to anyone who asks me specifics or asks my input on religious matters (I won't quibble over the lie term here).  I will just note, given believers' presupposed notions, a non-answer or a double entendre works great.
 
 For example, my wife challenged me recently "Do you believe the bible was inpired by god?"  I answered, "of course it was."  She asked for no calrification and I gave none.  Her presupposition is that I believe like she does that god breathed inspiration into the authors and they wrote what he wanted. 

 All I meant was whoever wrote it had god on their brain, either as a theme to pursue or a story to invent - there was no intervention on mythical god's part.  I write a few things myself and recently I wrote a poem about a creepy fellow who has a stack of human bones in his backyard that gives him much pleasure.  Warren Zevon's Excitable Boy song inspired me... Warren is long dead, and I have never met him - he certainly had no input, other than a thread of an idea from a line in his song. Warm sun inspires me to read a book by the pool - the sun didn't write the book I read or create the lounger I relax in with an adult beverage.

[nogodsforme]

Seems to me that if Christianity was self-evident, and there was one true god who wanted everyone to join up,  there would be no other religions. How could there be? The one true religion should be like water, or air. It would not have to compete in the global marketplace with other beliefs, because as soon as people heard about it, they would realize it made sense and immediately adopt it.

There are no substitutes for water or air, and everyone needs them to survive. The one true religion should be like that. No preaching, convincing or force should be necessary. Missionaries should not have to go around trying to convert people.  Anyone who is not a Christian should be obviously suffering, far less happy and successful than believers, like someone deprived of water or air.

You don't have to show up on someone's doorstep to persuade them to breathe air--you should not have to persuade anyone into the one true religion! No apologetics or complicated arguments should be needed, because there should not be any logical holes that need plugging.

The holy book should be amazingly transcendent, prophetic and full of useful information with no need for extensive study to comprehend its meaning. No scientific discovery or invention or law should make the religion look silly or outdated. Everything in the religion should match objective reality without question.You should not have to invent a powerful, scheming devil to explain why the world is the way it is. In sum, nobody should have to turn off their brain, "let go and let god", surrender fully to the holy spirit, have the correct attitude of submission, "open their heart'', or be in desperate emotional straits to believe.

Certainly no new religions should be arising after the establishment of Christianity, like Islam or Mormonism or Scientology. And the ones that pre-date, like Judaism and Hinduism should have disappeared as soon as the one true faith came on the scene. Christianity itself should not have to change with the times, either. Truth should always be truth, right?

We can see that is clearly not the case.

It took centuries for the heathens and pagans in Europe to be beaten into submission by Christian rulers. The largest group of Christians is Catholic, and that holds sway mainly in poor countries where indigenous people were conquered, enslaved and forced to convert. The Jews did not buy into the Christ deal, even though they were supposedly right there watching all the miracles. A billion Hindus are largely unimpressed. Buddhists likewise see no need to change. Islam is growing faster worldwide than Christianity.

More people throughout history have rejected the bible than have accepted it as truth. Even the people who accept it have to ignore most of it or else it makes no sense! And it is not like any of the other major religions is any better. Bad things happen to believers of every faith. People have to do everything for themselves, no matter what they believe. Prayer doesn't work, ever, for anyone. This god just doesn't seem to be up to snuff.
 
In contrast to what we would expect, some of the most successful, peaceful and stable regions worldwide are where most people are atheists. Many atheists are familiar with different religious traditions, or even used to practice a faith, so they know what they are rejecting.

If there is an all-powerful god in charge, he is doing a very good job of pretending not to care about any of this.

[Hatter23]

the Bible is the truth.

Support this assertion with evidence. Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.

[Justin Obriecht]

I'm really sorry about botching the quoting. I wasn't aware of the preview which will be a big help. I've now read everything I can about it and hope to have it down.

Is there a "reverse quote" button? Like a button I can push like the quote button, but in reverses the "quote" and the "end quote" text?

1. I believe God touched me for the same reason He touches anyone who's been Born Again. I humbled myself to the fact that I didn't have it all figured out when at the hight of my anti-theism I said those two Our Fathers. In addition, I searched for truth in a humble way my entire life. Every time I found another kernel no matter how it didn't fit into my life I embraced it. Up until this experience I'd never had any warm and fuzzies of any sort either, hence the anti-theism. It's all about sincerely humbling yourself and apologizing to Jesus for pushing Him away all these, asking Him to come into your life and thanking Him for not giving up on you.

Most of the regulars here have not always been atheists; most of them are former Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to fade, they were highly alarmed and did not want to lose it.  They desperately prayed and prayed and prayed, frantically begging Yahweh to give them strength or some kind of a sign or something to help them continue believing him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  It's a big part of the reason that they're atheists now.  What do you think about that?

First of all I love the genuine nature of your question.

I don't know how to emphasize this enough. Christian is such a loose term. There are very few Christian catholics, mormons, jehovah witnesses, etc... A person is not a Christian until they've been Born Again as Jesus said. They are not Born Again until they've been in dwelt with the Holy Spirit as I and millions of others have and everyone could.

I'm very skeptical of anyone who claims to have been a Christian as I've previously described, and now claims not to be. The reason for this is that you can't unbelieve something that you yourself have physically experienced and have known to be true. You can't have a relationship with someone and then say you didn't or believe you didn't. The Holy Spirit is a tangible presence in a true Christian's life, not something that someone can change their mind about or forget.

As far as the experience you've described, my guess is that they were never truly saved. They were in a legalistic religion that preached salvation by works (catholicism, mormonism, jehovah etc..), instead of salvation by grace as the Bible clearly teaches. Faith can fade but once you've felt the Truth in the form of the Holy Spirit there's no putting that back in the bottle.

There's plenty of people who've tasted that Truth, and while they know it's real, have decided to push God away for a myriad of reasons. They appear as atheists but they're really just mad or disappointed with a faultless God. I'm not directing this to anyone in particular.

Also there could be people in the group you've described that had a different timetable then God. There are people who have the wrong understanding of God's attributes and of the Bible and in turn their expectations of God are faulty. Others just didn't have the trust they needed to wait for God or to know that we should never go upon our own understanding.

No matter the reason I feel deeply for these individuals. It's important to remember that their story isn't over.

2. I'm not trying to convince anyone and God doesn't care if you believe or not.

Obviously he does care, considering what he does with people who don't believe.  I have no interest in "Doctor Who" at all, so if someone says that Tom Baker was not the best doctor, I'm not inclined to soak that person in gasoline and throw a lit match on him.  Actually, it's hard for me to imagine doing that to anyone at all, but if I did, you can bet it would be for something I care about a hell of a lot.  No pun intended.

He doesn't care if you believe in Him, He cares if you believe in His Son Jesus Christ and that you believe that He sent Him to die for our sins. He cares, bc this is the only way He can have a personal, loving and intimate relationship with His creation. And yes He is very offended, as would anyone, when His creation, which He owes nothing, but has given everything doesn't believe Him or believe in His Son. He does care a lot about us, that's why He's set up this perfect formula called the Gospel.

The thing you should consider is that lack of proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone here would think that.  Scientific skepticism entails rejecting a claim until evidence for the claim is provided, which is not the same thing as saying that the claim is false.  One of the reasons we're atheists is that we have seen no evidence that a deity exists.  Should anyone present any, we will examine it.

I'm not going to bog this thread down in the mountains of evidence that exists for the resurrection, God existing or any of the other evidences that support Christianity. The reason for this is that as I said earlier no one will be able to convince someone of God other than God Himself. I can't convince someone to have a realtionship with someone or to love someone. It's never about evidence it's about where a person's heart is. God has no interest in proving Himself to someone who isn't interested in a relationship with Him. Who isn't desperately seeking Him through His Son Jesus Christ.

Think about when we thought the world was flat.

What about it?

Just saying that a lack of evidence of something doesn't mean it isn't true. For a long time there was no evidence that we knew of that the Earth was round but it still was. There's no evidence that there's intelligent life anywhere else in the universe but I'd guess most people on this site have FAITH or BELIEVE there is. You have to understand that that Christians don't have faith in a thing or a concept, they have faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's no different then having faith or believing in your dad when he tells you he's going to do something or that he did something. You have no proof that he's going to do it/did it, but you have faith that he will/did

Another question to ask yourself is what kind of proof would you expect from God?

How about some kind of a healing miracle that cannot be explained by natural processes?  Like, say, an amputee spontaneously and miraculously getting his leg back?

The Bible is filled with exactly what you are asking for. Also as I've said if He did that right in front of you, you may believe but would you love Him and His Son? Would you repent of your sins and ask Him for forgiveness? If not that's a worthless act for Him to do. Also he tried that with Jews in the Old Testament and it didn't work. Doing overt things like that not only makes God into a novelty act but also would cheapen the relationship that developed.

It's important to understand that the demonically deceived powers that be have a vested interest in keeping the truth about Jesus Christ from you.

Considering that Christ is omnipotent, it shouldn't matter, should it?  It isn't possible to fight someone who is all-powerful.  I mean, if I fill a balloon with water and shoot it point-blank with a .44 Magnum, what are the odds that the balloon is not going to burst?  The odds of winning a fight with Jesus should be even slimmer than that, shouldn't they?

This would negate our free will. So would Him healing amputees right in front of us. He's not interested in shoving Himself down our throat (even though that's what many misguided Christians do). That would cheapen Him and His Son. As I've said this world is the perfect formula for creating as much true love between God and man as possible. The holocaust, this forum, atheists, satan and sin all serve a purpose.

No other topic has more disinfo on the net about it then Christianity.

Again: shouldn't be possible, should it?

[/quote]Same formula I've been talking about

4. There's no convincing people to have a personal relationship with God.

Actually, there could be, it's just that what skeptics would need to have such a relationship, believers are unable to provide.  For starters, you would have to prove that Yahweh exists, since it is not possible to even contemplate having a relationship with someone if you don't even know whether that person exists.  That, all by itself, is a tall order.

Having convinced someone of the existence of Yahweh, the next step would be to convince that person that Yahweh is not a complete fucking asshole.  Most rational and healthy people would not wish to have a relationship with a mass murderer of any kind, for example, and Yahweh, as portrayed in the bible, most certainly is one.  (Fun experiment for you, by the way... try going thru the bible sometime and adding up all the people that Yahweh slaughters.  Then, for comparison, add up the total number of people killed by Satan.  It's an eye-opening exercise.)

You're right believers are unable to provide this proof, no one is able to provide this proof. God is the only One who can prove Himself to anyone and it's that way by His perfect design. The only way God will be proved to anyone is if they humble themselves before Jesus Christ, ask Him for forgiveness, say you're sorry for pushing Him away all those years and thank Him for not giving up on you.

There's no amount of proof or intellectual gymnastics that will move someone toward Christ.

And that doesn't tell you anything?

Yes, that God in His infinite wisdom created a system that is completely reliant on His grace and a person using their free will to choose to have a realtionship with Him. No coercing, no pushiness, no cheap miracles, just humility and an eagerness to have a relationship with Jesus Christ . That His children (Born Again Christians) can play a role in moving people toward Him through spreading the Gospel, but only the person can ask Him into their life.

5. No one is making stuff up. We can both be right about our experiences up until this point. I was in your shoes two years ago. All I can tell you is if you sincerely want to know the truth about Christ He will show it to you.

I do sincerely want to know the truth about Christ.  If I'm wrong about his not existing, I seriously want to know that -- I absolutely hate being wrong about anything, and if Christ exists and is omniscient, then he knows that.  So why am I still an atheist?  He knows full well that he would have my approval to correct my error.

I can tell by tone of your questions that you're genuine. Because it's not enough for you to WANT to be wrong. You have to admit you're wrong. And in order to that you have to have a humble heart and start to do research in a way that seeks to prove your current knowledge and beliefs wrong. If you really read carefully what I write and you truly want to know the truth about Jesus, you'll find your path. He rejects no one that truly wants the truth.

Search for info that will prove your current beliefs wrong.

Which ones?

Go to church a couple times. Read the Bible with an open mind.

Most of us here have been to church more than a "couple times".  And most of us have read the bible in full, more than once and in more than one translation.  For many of us, it's why we're atheists now.

As I said it's not about reading the Bible or about going to church. Its about the state of your heart and mind when you do those things. If you're truly searching for truth, you'll find it.

No one can prove that the Bible isn't true

Actually, there are quite a few things in the bible that are known to be false.  The exodus, for example, never happened.  Neither did the flood.  The human race is not descended from two human beings.  Snakes and donkeys cannot talk.[/quote]

[/quote] I could bog this thread down with a bunch of links but I wont. The reality is that nothing in the Bible has been proven false. And it's all moot bc as I've said I can't force you into a relationship or force you to love someone.

and no one can prove that God is real

Now you're starting to get it.

This inability to prove it conclusively either way is God's perfect design. A design that requires faith that's based on trust. Trust that creates love like nothing else.

so I would encourage everyone to have a very open mind to the most important issue in the world.

Why do you assume that we don't?  Is it simply because we disagree with you?

It's s numbers game. There are closed minded people in great numbers on every issue especially this one.

6. Many proclaimed atheists are very mad at God. I knew that when I was one.

I find that rather doubtful.  I would need to know specifics, but I imagine that, more likely, they were angry at people who called themselves followers of Yahweh because of the things that those people say and do.

Nope they're mad at a faultless, blameless God. Also being angry at people that believe in a fairy tale is very weird. The reality is the Gospel has an emotional impact on people.

[Hatter23]

You can't have a relationship with someone and then say you didn't or believe you didn't.

Incorrect: Santa Claus


Lets start of with a basic question: Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?

[neopagan]

I knew I'd be told I wasn'a true christian... knew it...  30+ years playing footsie with d'lawd in a conservative, southern baptist church and I wasn't a true christian.  My church would fight you on that (still)
Plus.. I am also closed minded?
Damn, Justin, you aren't a very nice representative for your cause throwing around unfounded allegations against burgereaters you don't know.

[Justin Obriecht]

I don't mean to be impersonal but I think bullet points will best help us stay on the same page while addressing all of your thoughts.

Thanks for responding. I do not mind that at all.

1. In what other ways would you expect my "natural mental break through" to affect my life moving forward?

I've spoken to people who claimed their disciplines would allow them to walk through solid objects, teleport, fly and other amazing powers.  But I give that no credence. They were obviously kooks.  I would expect you to continue to meditate as a way to reduce stress and focus yourself. And I would expect you to continue to be better at it.  Why?  What else should be expected?

Well I don't meditate. As I said in a previous post after being Born Again I could not meditate in the same way I did before. Before I cleared my mind and felt disconnected, now I pray out loud to God and feel an amazing connection with Him. I don't do it to reduce stress or to focus, i do it bc I can't wait to feel that connection and pour my heart out to God.

2. It's important to understand that I'd only been meditating at that point for about two months. No master of anything here. Really just searching for truth the same way I have my entire life.

Well, then maybe meditation had nothing to do with.  But after having read your testimonial, I am at a loss as to why you would expect anyone else to connect your rather subjective experiences to any supernatural source, let alone jesus H.

What about me calling my mom and asking her why she believed in Jesus Christ? This without any idea why she believed bc I'd spent my whole life telling her she's crazy. This being the first thing I asked her without any other discussion on the call about what just happened to me.

She then goes on to describe almost the exact same experience (there is no typical experience but I believe God blessed us with the same one so that this atheist would finally see the light) I just had that morning, the night before and month previous.

What about all the causally related, biblically congruent events that have happened in my life over the past 1.5 years? What about the amazing connection I feel when I pray to the God of the Bible? What about the tears that flow down my face every time I worship God at my Christian church? What about the complete 180 that has occurred with my desires, addictions, behaviors, and the way I view the world all of them congruent to the Bible and only possible via the Holy Spirit?

I no longer have the ability to meditate as yogis and zen "masters" do.

I cannot be sure, of course, but suspect that is only because you think it is so. 

3. The issue with simply attributing it to the "myth" most prevalent in the culture is that all of my experiences since then have been tangible and causally related and congruent with the Bible.

I find that unlikely.  As with your initial "spiritual" experience, things happen and you just chalk it up to jesus.  Anyone can do that.  A lot of people do.  I could do that, but I find that to be egotistical.  I used to do it, back when I was xian.  But I was just deluding myself.  I think people want to feel special.  And what is more special than being favored by the omnipotent creator of all being?   

The bible has enough material in it, and the human brain is maleable enough that you can match anything you want to it.  In the American Civil war both sides used the bible to justify their respective positions on slavery.  My point being, there is literally nothing that cannot in some way be interpreted as congruent with the bible.

As I've said my life has changed 180 degrees. No part of it has been left untouched. Most of know that people's basic behaviors, proclivities and desires don't just change. All of mine did in less than a couple months. Anyone that knows me knows that I don't fake anything. I don't just go along with anything. I'm very skeptical. There is no question that the God of the Bible is changing my heart, desires and mind through the Holy Spirit. There is no feeling special or better then others, bc I had very little to do with it. It's all a product of God's unmerited favor.

You're right that people can and do match anything they want to the Bible. The difference is you can't mistake the tangible Holy Spirit living inside of you changing your life, heart, mind, behaviors and desires from the inside out. You can't fit direction that comes straight from God and then has biblically causal outcomes to the Bible. And if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, you have no reason to manipulate the Bible, it actually detests you. Humans can manipulate others with the Bible, but no one can manipulate a person relationship with God if they truly understand the Bible and have respectful, personal relationship with God.

4. While the feeling in my heart was the biggest reason it was and is far from the only. As I said in my testimony I called my mom and without any other discussion she described the same experience. An experience I was never aware of bc I spent my entire life telling my mom how crazy she was and how she needed a crutch.

Sorry.  I don't find coincidences to be even a little compelling.  Sometimes when I walk by street lights, they go dark.  Is that evidence of my arcane powers?  No, unfortunately.  Sometimes I am able to convice weak minded fools to do my bidding.  Is that evidence the Force is with me?  No, unfortunately. 

The street light example isn't causally related to anything. It doesn't happen to line up with the Word of God. What I'm describing is much more powerful and amazing.

5. While catholicism was in my background (I never thought of it after the age of 15 and before that I went through the motions as a kid, I'm 36 now) you have to understand that there was nothing I was more sure of on this planet then there not being a God.

That is not what I am talking about and it doesn't matter.  All that matters is you had a framework of beliefs instilled in you at a young age which you fell back on.  I'd be a little more impressed if your experience had pointed you in novel direction, like a religious tradition you'd never even heard of.  THAT would have been something.  "I had a feeling that I needed to [X],[1] so I did, and I felt bliss!  Later I researched it, and it turns out this is exatly what Sufi Mulims do!"

But it didn't.  You took it as a sign that the old one, the one with which you were familiar, was true afterall.  As if that wasn't totally predictable. 

1.	http://www.encyclopedia-of-religion.org/practices_of_sufism.html

I think you should consider reading my testimony again. For a month straight leading up to Nashville, I tried to chalk up the tingling feelings and the changes that were happening in my life to anything but God. The thought never crossed my mind. Then even in Nashville I started to think it could be God but not Jesus as you can see in my testimony. It wasn't until God made it abundantly clear (after I'd already humbled myself) that I finally gave into it being Jesus.

Just bc I was raised that way doesn't mean that Jesus isn't the one and only true God. It's hard to have a genuine Devine experience point you in a direction of fasle divinity as is the case in all other religions and Gods.

I currently despise catholicism (not catholics, they're well intentioned deceived people), it's a cult no different the mormon and jehovah witness church.

While I agree about the cult thing, I categorize all religious organizations as cults.  You are in a cult.  That is because to call a group a cult is a way of delegitimizing them.  It is derogatory.  That is to be expected coming from me.  Coming from you that is hypocrisy and bigotry.

That is not a surprise, though.  I find most protestants are bigots.  I've been to a protestant service where the entire sermon was dedicated to deriding catholicism.  Pathetic.  Love your enemey indeed.  In all the years I attended catholic mass I never heard a single word against protestants. 

You are also deluding yourself with the sola scrpitura approach.  The bible was never meant to be the authority.  It was constructed as a tool by the church.  I generally eschew analogies, but this one works.  If yhwh were a hamburger, the RCC would be McDonalds.  The bible is just the menu.  McDonalds gets you the burger.  They are the experts at that.  They made menu just to help communication between you and they.  Just because you, BurgerMan, have their menu does not mean you can get a burger.  It is not the recipe. You protestants are idolators, worshipping a book, an instrument intended for teaching.

I'm not in a cult. Here is a cult checklist. http://packham.n4m.org/cult.htm Now almost all religions fall into this category but true Christianity does not.

It's not bigotry to disagree with someones lifestyle or beliefs. Do you think women should have to wear Burkas? Do you think polygomy is ok? It's also not bigotry to speak the truth and call out destructive religions. Catholism is one of the most damaging things in this world. The truth about it should be shouted from the roof tops. We love our enemy (no that catholisim is our or my enemy, just going off what you said) enough to tell them the truth, instead of being apathetic and letting them sit in their deceived state.

The Bible was always meant to be the authority. It was written by men who were inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. It's 100% true.

The catholic church is the opposite of the experts at bring you or teaching anyone about God.

I do not worship the Bible as that would be idolatry. I worship the one and only Living God through His Son Jesus Christ.

6.I don't care about Obama...

Fair enough.  It appeared otherwise in your blog, but I'll leave it alone.


Also, I removed your preachy post, the one you said was for you.  Preaching is not allowed here.  It is a forum for discussion, not for xians to preach at us.

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin, here's something for you to think about.  The message of Christianity may sound good to you, a believer, but it is predicated on something that is truly horrendous. 

It doesn't matter how it sounds to me or anyone else. It's the truth.

And that is the idea that humans suffer because Adam and Eve disobeyed YHWH, and that they deserve this suffering.  This motif is repeated elsewhere in the Bible - that it's right and just for generations and generations of people to suffer because of the misdeeds of their ancestors, simply because YHWH decreed it.  This is one of the most horrible and vile evils imaginable.

God did us one huge favor. He blessed us with free will. I don't think anyone reading this would want it any other way. What you stated is true, we are suffering bc of what they did and yes we deserve it. God is completely faultless and blameless. There is good news however. You can be saved from that suffering by humbling yourself and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. He gave us the best way out ever. He sent His Son to die for our sins, all we have to do is believe Him, and we live forever and live a blessed, forgiven and cleansed conscience life here on Earth.

It's the opposite of a vile evil. For the creator of the universe to send HIS only Son to die on the cross for OUR sins, after we messed up under our own volition, when we didn't deserve it, is unimaginable grace and love.

Naturally, if you accept that premise, the message of Christianity, that people can earn redemption and forgiveness by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus, seems reasonable.  But it is not.  Nobody deserves to suffer for what their parents did, let alone their however many times removed ancestor, and a god that would condone such a thing for so long (thousands of years, even if you accept the Christian timeline, much longer if you don't) is not worthy of being obeyed, let alone worshiped.  Certainly not when he sends his 'son' to die in a passion play, as if that makes everything right.

Because it doesn't.

The thing you're missing is that humans didn't stop there. They kept sinning and became more an more evil through their own free will, in spite of being the closest generation to God in history. That's why it was passed down. We're to blame for the world being this way and it would be 1000 X worse if it wasn't for the presence of the Holy Spirit in this world. Everything is our fault, but God gave us the most amazing gift imaginable.

And what makes it even worse is that it's not based on reality, on things that people can prove happened, but based on belief, on things that people think happened because they were written in old books.  We're not talking about natural laws such as gravity or electromagnetism here, or even the principle of entropy, all of which are easily demonstrable.  We're talking about events in a creation myth that nobody can prove happened, and which has nothing to distinguish it from the dozens of other creation myths that people came up with.  Yet, people spread it as if it were the Gospel (heh) truth, acting as if it's true simply because they were taught that it was true.

It absolutely is reality. Nothing could be more real. Where did the Big Bang come from? Things don't just pop into being uncaused out of nothing.

God's creation is all around us. Nothing could be more demonstrable. I experience it everyday to be true. No one taught me it's true. I and millions of others have personal, tangible, causally related, relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have everything figured out.  But that doesn't mean I need to accept someone else's beliefs as true without some serious hard evidence to prove it.  Not subjective experiences that could mean a lot of things, but actual evidence as solid (heh) as the fact that mass attracts mass.

I also don't have everything figured out. The only thing I know for sure is Christ crucified, the resurrection, and that I have a relationship with Him.

I would never suggest anyone to accept someone else's beliefs as true. That would be worthless and will never result in being Born Again. There will be no evidence forthcoming that will cause you to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ or in turn get you into heaven. Your heart will have to desire a relationship with Him just like any other relationship.

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin,
Since I referenced Wikipedia in my previous post, I figured it would be obvious that I am not a doctor but I thought I should mention that directly. (Thank you Astreja)

Please note that I did not have time yet to read your replies to others nor most of their comments in return.


Upon rereading about the red light, I realized a couple things.

First, I apologize for my speculation about the red light as you mention the tingling in the second half of the sentence which is what caught my attention. So it made me forget about the reference to you looking directly at it and I reasoned out an incorrect sequence.

Second, since you indicate that you have not gone to the doctor, I more strongly urge you to go. You said you had none of the other symptoms yet the portions I've underlined below suggest you had symptoms of something even if not a TIA.

I’m also wondering why it wasn’t flashing a minute ago but is now. So after about a minute of staring at this light I get the most intense unique tingling feeling all over my body. Dramatically stronger than the one I felt a month earlier by the elevator. It’s so strong that all of my hair is standing up on end and it feels like I’m getting lifted off the bed. At this point I’m overwhelmed and breathing heavily. This intense burst lasts for a about a minute which feels like an hour and then ebbs and flows for another four minutes.

The blinking light could have been normal to the device but you don't believe it was and if it is not then that becomes another symptom. The hair standing on end is the least of the ones in the quote above. The feeling of weightlessness/lifting happens with curtailed blood flow to the brain. The distortion of time I'm less certain of but I think can also be caused by curtailed blood flow to the brain.

Please see a doctor. An MRI (or whatever the doctor chooses for testing) will let a doctor determine if you have a serious condition or if you are safe.

A radical mental change as you describe does not happen for no reason. If it happens overnight with the events you describe it is an indicator of brain damage. It doesn't matter if it is an atheist becoming a believer or a believer becoming atheist – in a healthy person there are doubts and speculations beforehand. You indicate there were none. If you were being disingenuous to make the change more dramatic then you need to do the honest thing and correct your testimony. If you are being honest about the change then you need to see a doctor.

The following are not in the order you wrote them:

P.S, The illness I had was strep throat. I've never heard of that causing brain damage.

It would be unusual but you need to remember that an illness is a trauma to the body. While it is called strep throat because it mainly manifests in the throat, there is nothing to prevent it from causing inflammation in any portion of the body.  Unfortunately inflammation in the brain is very damaging due to the skull restricting expansion. So, unusual, yes, impossible, unfortunately no.

2. Wouldn't you expect those attacks to affect other areas of my life, behavior or health? Wouldn't you expect them to create some negative affects instead of all being intensely positive?
5. What other areas of my life/health/thinking would you expect this brain damage to affect?
6. What could have brought on this brain damage?

The strep throat seems to have initiated the changes. You have already described several different changes. As for your mind being 'better' – that is a subjective evaluation. I do note that, to partially use an analogy, your mind can no longer function in 5th gear it now functions in 4th (or 3rd) gear. That indicates damage. You may welcome the change. With a car going fast does make corners difficult and catching details one is flying past is also a problem. So subjectively, a slower functioning brain could feel better.

4. I've never had a desire for their to be magic in the world and I still know there is no such thing.

I include divine workings under the term "magic" since they also have no rational explanation.

7. I'm in perfect health and as I've said my thinking has never been clearer. My stress and anxiety has never been lower.

With your mind no longer racing, stress and anxiety would be less. Many people feel as if they are in perfect health until they drop over dead.

1. ... The second is that I've had nothing but Biblically congruent, tangible and causally related experiences since.
7. ... And it's congruent with trusting our Lord Jesus Christ as the Bible explains. 

I have no idea what you mean by this. I don't know if you are saying you can now heal people – if so cool, and you can prove there is at least divine magic in the world. Or are you saying people around you now act as if they are from the area around Jerusalem from 2000 years ago?

There was nothing I was more positive in my life about then there being no God, and that was the case until that night in Nashville right before I said the two Our Fathers. After that I thought it was possible but far from sure or even slight confidence. There will never be a change in my testimony.

It could either be brain damage that has no other side affects, or the experience it lines up perfectly with and continues to be proven out every day I wake up, and that is the Holy Spirit is changing my heart, desires and behaviors from the inside out.

You have to understand that if that ambiguity wasn't in there God would turn into a cheap thrill or interesting guy to have around. God purposely puts that ambiguity all around Him to give people the opportunity to be hard hearted, skeptical, untrusting, and /or prideful or not. He does it to protect our free will.

Devine workings have a perfectly rational explanation. There's a God who loves us and nothing happens outside of His either direct or permissive will.

This "Biblically congruent, tangible and causally related experiences since" means, that when the Holy Spirit guides me it's always congruent with the Bible.  When I listen to Him there are tangible causal outcomes that are also Biblically congruent. When I apply the teachings of the Bible to my life I have tangle, causal, biblically congruent outcomes in my life.

[Justin Obriecht]

Justin, here's something for you to think about.  The message of Christianity may sound good to you, a believer, but it is predicated on something that is truly horrendous.  And that is the idea that humans suffer because Adam and Eve disobeyed YHWH, and that they deserve this suffering.  This motif is repeated elsewhere in the Bible - that it's right and just for generations and generations of people to suffer because of the misdeeds of their ancestors, simply because YHWH decreed it.  This is one of the most horrible and vile evils imaginable.

You make perpetual punishment seem like a bad thing, jaimehlers. But it isn't that bad. Why, in North Korea today if you commit a crime, your children and grandchildren are also put in prison with you, and I think that's beautiful.

Oh wait, now that I've thought about it... 

As jaimehlers and I and the other atheists agree (well, probably agree, its not my job to put words in the mouths of others), the Adam and Eve thing is obviously a story constructed by humans for the purpose of a) erroneously explaining the beginning, because the authors hadn't a clue anyway, and b) maintaining some control and/or explaining why people do bad things, because that is what made up stories of that genre are for.

It is impossible to be punished forever by a "loving" god. Not only because there are no gods, but also because a truly loving god would be in a position to set reasonable standards, would communicate clearly and would be capable of being appreciated by people that didn't fear him. A non-existent god, on the other hand, would have to be a bit heavy-handed, because his inventors, seeking power over the local minions, would need to be able to justify fucking the populace. And of course, to make that more likely, they need to keep the average IQ of the people sort of low. So they lie and call it science.

Nope, I ain't taking the rap for a couple of ancient shoplifters. Never have, never will. If you really feel a need to convince me otherwise, christians, I suggest you first give me a pre-frontal lobotomy and then scramble the rest of my brains with a stir-stick. That will make us equals and give you a chance.

Well it sounds like you have your mind made up. As unfortunate as that is, especially on an issue that is not provable one way or the other, and is far from clear for people who haven't felt the Holy Spirit or been in a relationship with Jesus Christ, I hope that you'll continue to be as confident and public about your beliefs in your daily life, as you are about them here. I know from experience it can be tough, but to be neutral or silent in my opinion is worse then being wrong.

[Justin Obriecht]

So Justin, you were an atheist. Think about when you were an atheist and remember that I, as an atheist, don't accept woo, logical fallacies.

Tell me, how do I spererate what you are saying from a mental breakdown or a lie.

You know, evidence. That simple

Tell me evidence that couldn't equally apply to the Grecian Gods using the Iliad.

From a lie, you can't for sure, and God wouldn't have it any other way. From a mental breakdown, I'd have to ask what other areas of my life would you expect to see signs of that mental breakdown, bc me or others don't see any, quite the opposite really.

There is no evidence I can give you. Only God can do that.  The reality is that it takes more faith not to believe in God then the opposite.