Author Topic: World views with no God  (Read 19191 times)

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #406 on: September 13, 2012, 09:06:14 PM »
I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him?

There is a ton wrong with the paragraph that this sentence came from, but this part stood out for me.  What do you mean by 'forcing' us to believe in him?  What exactly are you talking about, because I really think you are not using that word to explain what you mean here.  I guess what I am asking is this... How are the following 2 sentences different for you???

I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him.
I don't see how God could be loving if he showed us that he exists. 

You chose the first sentence, which gives the impression that God is grabbing us by the collar and yelling in our faces.  Why?  I don't understand it.  If he was an ass hole and did that, then yeah, he might not be thought of as very loving.  But he wouldn't have to do that.  He could certainly show us that he exists in a very nice way and still be very much a loving God, couldn't he?  What part of that do you not 'see'?  If he came down, showed himself to everyone, and then cured cancer with a wave of his hand, couldn't that be seen as loving?  I don't get where your confusion comes from.     

BTW, see Star Stuff's thread on 'Quote of the Day' if you'd like to see a crap load of quotes to counter the ones you posted.  Each side has their quotes, Sam.  You can't look at one side and not open your eyes to the other. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Azdgari

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #407 on: September 13, 2012, 09:34:55 PM »
I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him?

Try this one:

I don't see how your mother could be loving if she forced you to believe in her existence.

Does that make sense to you, Sam?
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #408 on: September 13, 2012, 10:10:34 PM »
Both of the previous two posts pose the most imortant question in Christianity, as far as I am concerned. If god cares so much, and if seeing something is not some sort of brutal force, how would god's making his presense freely observable somehow make it impossible for us to do anything but worship him? We see things around us all the time which don't appeal to us, and thus we don't build our entire lives around them.

And, Gohavesomefun...thanks for that link...Have been looking for something interesting to watch, and those might just fit the bill. Too late to start this evening, but I'll keep them in mind :)

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #409 on: September 14, 2012, 05:35:59 AM »
Samuel, if your god is the creator of the universe, and all powerful, especially all-knowing, then the act of creation itself is the only forcing it ever has to do. It created everything exactly as it wanted everything, including exactly how all of history would play out forever. Admitting any less diminshes your deity in the all knowing department, in which case you would have to start reminding your fellow churchies that their deity is not all powerful.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #410 on: September 14, 2012, 08:37:37 AM »
I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him?

Am I forcing you to believe in me by posting?  Does that make me unloving?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #411 on: September 14, 2012, 09:02:38 AM »
Further, Sam says that YHWH is not hidden to him in any way.  That means that according to Sam's standards, YHWH is forcing him to believe in its existence - because it's not staying hidden.

Is that loving, Sam?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #412 on: September 14, 2012, 09:08:51 AM »
Further, Sam says that YHWH is not hidden to him in any way.  That means that according to Sam's standards, YHWH is forcing him to believe in its existence - because it's not staying hidden.

yhwh is such a bastard.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #413 on: September 14, 2012, 09:39:51 AM »
I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him?

So he was unloving to every person that encountered him in the Bible. Unloving to Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, Abram, Jacob, Solomon, David, Daniel, Moses, Noah,  and Jesus, amongst others.

Hmm, did not know that.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #414 on: September 14, 2012, 12:07:51 PM »
I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him?

Another thing I don't think anyone brought up yet; the alternative (not beliving in god) is apparently, to burn in hell.

Given that, why wouldn't it be loving to 'force us' to believe in him?  Sure, "free will" and all that; but considering the threat of hell, the loss of free will seems like a perfectly acceptable price to pay.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #415 on: September 19, 2012, 02:52:48 AM »
Samuelke was active yesterday, but hasn't yet seen fit to offer a response to this question.  I've only asked it 6 or 7 times though, on a daily basis, so I guess its possible he just missed it......

So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

It didn't happen, Samuelke.  Why not?  You said, extremely clearly, that I would find clear and unambiguous evidence for your god.  I didn't.  So what went wrong, Samuelke?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #416 on: September 28, 2012, 09:46:18 PM »
Hey I'm not gone don't you worry I'm really working on my reply as thorough as possible. school and work and then homework tend to get in the way, I am sorry for the long delay but I should have replied by the end of the weekend. I'm going to try my best to unpack some of this confusion on the hiddeness thought.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #417 on: September 29, 2012, 04:09:55 AM »
Shouldn't require a particularly long answer.  Frankly, the obviosu one is "I was wrong - god DOES hide".  Or, of course, that there IS no god.

Simple, fits the facts.....just requires some guts to own up to that being the answer.

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Graybeard

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #418 on: September 29, 2012, 06:38:13 AM »
Samuelke was active yesterday, but hasn't yet seen fit to offer a response to this question.  I've only asked it 6 or 7 times though, on a daily basis, so I guess its possible he just missed it......

So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

It didn't happen, Samuelke.  Why not?  You said, extremely clearly, that I would find clear and unambiguous evidence for your god.  I didn't.  So what went wrong, Samuelke?
No, I think it will take some time to work out an answer that encompasses:

God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8 / Prov 8:17

God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28

God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11

God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #419 on: September 29, 2012, 11:40:29 AM »
^ In deed Graybeard.  Because as I have said, I ACTIVELY SOUGHT a reply from God when I actually believed he existed.  I prayed a lot to give me some kind of honest, non-coincidental real proof that God existed.  I got absolutely nothing, not even a coincidence that I could have maybe attributed to god.... I prayed for weeks and got absolutely ZERO proof that God exists.... none.

So the options for me were:
1. The Bible lies, and God distinctly wants to remain hidden for reasons known only to him.
2. The Bible lies, and God does not give a shit if I stop believing in him
3. The Bible lies, and God does not care if I go to hell as a result of my loss of belief.
4. God does not exist.

One of these answers serves as an answer to this questions and all other theological issues over the mysterious ways in which god works. It is also the simplest of the answers which dovetails nicely with the way we know the world works as well as the way that humans seek meaning in their lives, the way that humans fear death, and the need for social control.  The answer is so simple it escapes many because it changes their outlook on the world dramatically. 

Once I accepted the lack of god the world INSTANTLY made infinitely more sense.  Once you acknowledge that the Bible is just a book written by men as a way to both explain and control the world around them things start falling in to place and you can see the world for what it really is instead of living in a fantasy world where we are little more than insects in some sadist's ant farm.
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Offline Strawman

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #420 on: September 30, 2012, 07:14:26 AM »
My world view is that we are all part of one family. We should share all we have with each other. No one person should rule over another. We are all equal and free. There is no reason to hate. We must work to serve nature as nature serves us.

Where did all this and us come from? What is or do we have purpose? And what happens when you die?
When we die our bodies are broken down to build new life. No one knows how the universe or life began. Our only purpose and responsibility is to ourselves, each other and nature.
If God exists at all he clearly wishes to reside exclusively in the imagination.