Author Topic: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline JeffPT

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I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« on: September 22, 2012, 05:17:42 PM »
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/22/14036172-pakistan-official-offers-100000-reward-for-killing-of-maker-of-anti-prophet-muhammad-film?lite

A few paragraphs in, the piece says the following...

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims in the name of the freedom of expression.

Yeah, that's the ticket.  Take away OTHER peoples freedom of expression so their feelings don't get hurt... in the name of freedom of expression. 

Every day I get more nervous about these Muslim's.  They're so dangerous.  When is the rest of the world going to tell them that they have to stop getting all pissy when someone insults a dead guy?  I've always said that violence only begets more violence, but at some point, someone has to put a stop to these people.  They're not getting better, they're getting worse. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 06:26:22 PM »
 They are definitely getting more press coverage.
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Offline Garja

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 09:40:17 PM »
I told a friend of mine the other day that I was going to buy a Koran just so I could rub my junk on it and post pictures..... may throw in some Bible-junk action too just for the comparison.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Quesi

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 08:14:36 AM »
Thank you for sharing this link.  Along with the recent statement by Pakistan's prime minister, this certainly seems to create a portrait of a bunch of irrational lunatics. 

However, these absurd statements are taking place within a complex context.  Over in another thread, I wrote a bit about the context of "Muslim outrage" that was are witnessing. 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23854.msg532391.html#msg532391


I think it is impossible to underestimate the role that the Palestinian situation plays on the international stage.  For Muslims around the world, including the non-Arab Muslim majority, the Palestinian situation is a rallying point. 

When Muslims get mad about pictures of Mohammad or youtube videos, please understand that they are really already mad about the dehumanization of Palestinians.[1]  They see these symbolic attacks on their beliefs and practices as a reminder of their vulnerability, and they live with the ever-present fear that their lives could be transformed into the lives that the Palestinians have been forced to endure now for generations, in which their land is not theirs, their national resources are not theirs, and their right to self-determination is stripped away. 

And it is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.  We watch the protests against these cartoons and whatnot from the safety of our comfortable homes, and we shake our heads at how irrational they are, and we forget the greater context.  Just as most Americans look at the 9/11 attacks with outrage, and just as most Americans can identify with the victims, most Muslims look at the Palestinian situation with outrage and identify with the victims.   

But when we fail to recognize the context in which the outrage is taking place, it is indeed easy to dismiss these angry people as savages.

 1. And deadly drone strikes on their land and foreign occupation and a few other things as well

In the context of Pakistan, the situation is even more complex.  Pakistan is a pretty nasty place, and Peshawar is probably among the most horrible places on planet earth.  Geographically and ethnically, it is closer to (Pashtune) Afghanistan than Pakistan.  And for more than a generation, it has been the dumping ground for the cold war refugees escaping the violence of the US/Soviet war that was taking place on their land.  Then it became the dumping ground for those escaping the Taliban.  And then, as the Taliban were pushed from power in Afghanistan, it became a refuge for them. 

So refugees keep flooding in from wars that no one even understands, but which the Western world is blamed for.  As as the residents of Peshawar look at the US troops wandering through the squalor that most of them live in, they, perhaps justifiably, feel as if they are under attack. 

So some petty politician, (who somehow has managed to acquire wealth in a place where poverty is the norm), has found a rallying point from which to make a name for himself and gain popular support from the disenfranchised, mostly illiterate masses, on whom is political future depends.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:16:26 AM by Quesi »

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 09:51:50 AM »
Jeff, I'm not sure there's any irony there.

His quote ends with an adverbial phrase:

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims in the name of the freedom of expression.

The question is which verb is the phrase describing? You seem to think that it's describing 'called' i.e. he's saying:

He called, in the name of the freedom of expression, for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims.

Which would indeed be ironic. But I think it's describing 'hurt' i.e. he means:

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt, in the name of the freedom of expression, the religious emotions of the Muslims.

Which isn't ironic at all.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 09:53:42 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Nickolas

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 11:33:45 AM »
However, these absurd statements are taking place within a complex context. 

The context is indeed complex but it goes beyond the Palestinian situation, which is seen by the Muslim world as an evil perpetrated by Israel, albeit with material support from its western allies.  More globally, many proponents of Islam see themselves under personal attack by the United States, this perception having been greatly magnified by the thousands of civilians, many of them children, killed and mutilated  by American ordnance in the past decade. Mr. Cheney's "collateral damage". For a finer appreciation of context from an Islamic standpoint, consider the outrage of Americans following the 9/11 murders of almost 3,000 innocent people. Now multiply that number by 40 or 50 to approximate the number of innocent dead in Islamic countries since 9/11. If that number was superimposed onto and across the American landscape, the rage of the people of the United States would be boundless, much like the current extreme rage of Islam. The difference goes to the far superior ability of the US to retaliate - a gap Iran seems intent to close, and then things would get to be even more interesting.

The context also goes to the mentality of the murderous hoards. Most are impoverished, illiterate and ignorant. All have been thoroughly indoctrinated by their mullahs and imams and are as a consequence utterly deranged by their faith. In the final analysis the responsibility for the madness we see on the news, and the only remote possibility to end it, rests with the Islamic hierarchy and highly educated in the Muslim world. But those who dare to speak out against the violence, ludicrous Islamic laws and imaginary crimes like blasphemy risk being labelled and killed as apostates. These individuals may number large but since they remain silent we cannot know. Only when Muslim leadership speaks out in condemnation of the violence will it end but, given that Muslim leadership seems to be more disposed to inciting violence against the United States, within the context of hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths and the hatred toward infidels codified by the Holy Qu'ran, this seems unlikely.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 09:55:10 PM »
Jeff, I'm not sure there's any irony there.

His quote ends with an adverbial phrase:

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims in the name of the freedom of expression.

The question is which verb is the phrase describing? You seem to think that it's describing 'called' i.e. he's saying:

He called, in the name of the freedom of expression, for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims.

Which would indeed be ironic. But I think it's describing 'hurt' i.e. he means:

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt, in the name of the freedom of expression, the religious emotions of the Muslims.

Which isn't ironic at all.

What do you think?

I'm not sure how you're seeing this.  Could you try to go a bit further with your explanation please, because the last sentence you put into italics sounds very strange to me.  Like you shouldn't be using the phrase 'in the name of freedom of expression' in relation to hurting the Muslims emotionally.  I could see saying something like, 'in the name of the golden rule', or 'in the name of world peace' but not 'in the name of freedom of expression'. 

I guess I still read it ironically.  I'd like to see how you're seeing it, though. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Dante

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 10:43:19 PM »
He's saying that it says "People shouldn't be allowed to use the guise of freedom of expression to hurt the feelings of Muslims". I agree with Gnu's assessment, if not the message. It's not ironic, just poorly worded. The suggestion is utterly ridiculous; why would a prophet need his honor defended so voraciously? Either he was sent from god, and lives an (after)life fulfilled in such a eay that no earthly anything can bring harm to him, or he needs violence to come upon anyone who speaks ill of him.

Do people really not see how asinine that is? Their god is supposed to dole out justice, no? The forever kind to boot. Why do people think they should act out on behalf of an omnipotent deity?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 10:58:01 PM »
That makes a lot more sense the way you worded it Dante.  I can see what Gnu meant now.  That makes sense, yes. 

I saw it differently when I first read it. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Quesi

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 07:04:37 AM »
Interesting translation question.  I'm guessing we don't have too many Urdu speakers on the forum to examine the original wording and provide an accurate translation.

I actually do agree with Gnu's interpretation, (not that I know enough about Urdu to even speculate about how adverbial clauses work or how their placement in a sentence indicates what they modify) because I think that *freedom* of anything is not a value that is generally embraced by Pakistani governmental officials. 

I'm reminded of a story a Pakistani American friend of mine, whose family was Christian, told me many years ago.  He was actually an atheist, (and gay) but neither of those facts appeared on his national ID card. 

He was "labeled" a Christian. 

Christians in Pakistan are a marginalized minority, and are restricted from many aspects of political life.  However, ironically, his "Christian ID card" enabled him to buy alcohol legally in Pakistan.  The Muslim majority in Pakistan are prohibited by law from buying alcohol.

I think it is interesting that the Muslim majority is perfectly happy to grant "freedoms" to marginalized minorities that they themselves don't enjoy. 

 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 07:58:29 AM »
Perhaps this is paranoid ranting, but doesn't anyone else find it just a little disturbing that there's a sudden, explosive increase in news about the violence in the middle east....just a few months before a US election where "doves vs hawks" is a major component of the electorate mentality?

That some piddling piece of low budget crap is supposedly the ignition spark in countries that likely have little to no access to the distribution channel of this crap?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 08:14:15 AM »
Perhaps this is paranoid ranting, but doesn't anyone else find it just a little disturbing that there's a sudden, explosive increase in news about the violence in the middle east....just a few months before a US election where "doves vs hawks" is a major component of the electorate mentality?

That some piddling piece of low budget crap is supposedly the ignition spark in countries that likely have little to no access to the distribution channel of this crap?

I don't think that it is paranoid to look critically at which protest movements are receiving airtime, and which aren't.  As I stated in a previous post, I have read claims that there were more Occupy protests  (to mark the one-year anniversary of the movement) during the week that the youtube protests were dominating the news. 

I usually organize at least a couple of small rallies every year, (usually around NYC budget issues and the impact of cuts on vulnerable populations) and we only get press when the topic is tied to another "hot" political issue.  And yet sometimes much smaller protests/events get much more coverage.

The editorial decisions made by the media have a HUGE impact on public opinion.  And none of us really understands the factors that influence those decisions. 

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 10:09:58 AM »
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/22/14036172-pakistan-official-offers-100000-reward-for-killing-of-maker-of-anti-prophet-muhammad-film?lite

A few paragraphs in, the piece says the following...

He called for legislation to have the anti-blasphemy law at the global level so that no one could hurt the religious emotions of the Muslims in the name of the freedom of expression.

Yeah, that's the ticket.  Take away OTHER peoples freedom of expression so their feelings don't get hurt... in the name of freedom of expression. 

Every day I get more nervous about these Muslim's.  They're so dangerous.  When is the rest of the world going to tell them that they have to stop getting all pissy when someone insults a dead guy?  I've always said that violence only begets more violence, but at some point, someone has to put a stop to these people.  They're not getting better, they're getting worse.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: I wonder if he sees the irony... probably not.
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »
Jeff, do you remember this photo of a British muslim at a demonstration in London a few years ago, exercising his civil right to protest ?

Definitely ironic: