Author Topic: The Wager - Pwned  (Read 698 times)

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Online jetson

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The Wager - Pwned
« on: September 22, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
This is another video from someone I follow.  Brilliantly done, only six minutes - totally destroys Pascals Wager, IMO.


Online Graybeard

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 10:38:11 AM »
I am Graybeard and I approve that ^ video!
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online wright

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 11:42:54 AM »
Sweet, jetson. Thanks.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »
if God is infinitely incomprehensible,and theists tell us we JUST can't understand his message,why should he send us to hell? If you can't understand the message because it makes NO sense to us why should we be eternally punished? After all its HIS fault if we fail to understand the message he left to ignorant goat herders 2000 years ago
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Quesi

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 05:42:57 PM »
I like the idea that there may be some unknown deity out there, evaluating us on our ability to engage in rational thought.  And only those of us who succeed get the secret reward. 

I need to sleep on this.  I'll place my bet tomorrow. 

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 03:58:34 AM »
It struck me as very worrying as a kid that god would give a test on how to live the result of which would have the most far-reaching personal consequences imaginable, and give pointers to some but not others. This was one of the many things in my quest to understand god that nobody else seemed to have any reasonable idea about, either. Nobody else seemed to have a problem with it, and after a couple of "mysterious ways" I just gave up asking. I mean, I couldn't even get a straight "I don't know" out of those people so why bother ...[1]


That said, the music grated on my nerves but I just love seeing a defective argument eviscerated comprehensively. No matter what "side" it's on - if it's wrong it's got to go. Christians would use the exact same arguments against the wager if it were al-D?n al-??s?'s rather than Pascal's.
I always found the fact that Pascal goes from god to christian god without so much as a footnote; it just sticks out like an X-Wing in the battle for Minas Tirith. It really makes you wonder (and if it doesn't, it should) if Pascal was so blinded by his will to believe or whether he was purposefully creating propaganda.
 1. For the record, I didn't grow up in a particularly religious environment. I worked up the courage to call myself an atheist at 14. Never looked back in regret.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 09:08:17 AM »
Noman (my bold):
Quote
I always found the fact that Pascal goes from god to christian god without so much as a footnote; it just sticks out like an X-Wing in the battle for Minas Tirith. It really makes you wonder (and if it doesn't, it should) if Pascal was so blinded by his will to believe or whether he was purposefully creating propaganda.

Actually, Pascal does address that point a couple of pages before he describes his wager, in Pensee 226:
Quote
What say [the unbelievers] then? "Do we not see," say they, "that the brutes live and die like men, and Turks like Christians? They have their ceremonies, their prophets, their doctors, their saints, their monks, like us," etc.

If you care but little to know the truth, that is enough to leave you in repose. But if you desire with all your heart to know it, it is not enough; look at it in detail. That would be sufficient for a question in philosophy; but not here, where everything is at stake. And yet, after a superficial reflection of this kind, we go to amuse ourselves, etc. Let us inquire of this same religion whether it does not give a reason for this obscurity; perhaps it will teach it to us.

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 10:10:40 AM »
Thanks, I didn't know that.

Still hogwash, though ...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 10:12:27 AM by Noman Peopled »
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
-xphobe

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 06:54:09 PM »
Thanks, I didn't know that.
You're welcome.

Quote
Still hogwash, though ...
LOL.

Yes. I agree it's hogwash.

I guess what I'm objecting to is that in circles such as WWGHA, Pascal is best known (and disrespected) for this single wager idea, and his other accomplishments are ignored.

Whereas his contemporary Newton is applauded for his science, but his theology (and alchemy) ignored.

Pascal was a genius. In the formative years of modern science, he was a mathematician, a physicist, and an inventor. He was one the first advocates of the scientific method.

Just sayin'.

Go, Blaise.

Online jetson

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »
That's an excellent point Gnu, and I'm glad you reminded us!

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 11:21:46 AM »
I'm guessing Newton's scribbles on religion aren't as accessible, whatever the reason - while Newton wrote an easy to package rhetoric device. No wonder it's so popular among people who think that "it's just a theory" is a tremendous hole in the concept of biological evolution. It's "what if you're wrong" dressed up as math. If not for his unfortunate wager, we could leave poor Pascal in peace.
Plus, newton kept his views quite private. On the flip side, he set back the theory of light a few decades by sheer authority. I guess we normal folk can take some solace in the fact that geniuses can be morons too ... but also that morons can be geniuses :)
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
-xphobe

Offline Poseidon

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Re: The Wager - Pwned
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2012, 04:47:25 PM »
There is no doubt whatever that B.Pascal was a brilliant person who was far ahead of his time in an intellectual sense. Pascal being a particularly smart dude was aware that his livlihood depended on remaining in the good graces of the hierarchy. He would logicly invent some seemingly brilliant bullshit designed to avoid the disfavor of those who influenced his destiny.

He almost surely knew of the tribulations that Gallieo endured, dont you think?  After all lying, or in this case scamming, to save ones own ass is not a new construct.

In the SI system of measurement one Pascal is equal to a pressure of one Newton applied to one square meter of surface. He is said to have built a calculating machine which led to the naming of the computer language Pascal. His magic triangle is also pretty slick. I'd say that he might have been one of the early practitioners of the CYOAF concept. 

I just thought I'd toss that one into the fray.

P.S. Military veterans will recognize CYOAF to mean  .....Cover Your Own Ass First.