Author Topic: GOP by hook or by crook  (Read 1520 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 12:55:14 PM »

Voting rights are more important than party affiliation or winning a particular election, but I only hear this perspective coming from liberals and moderates.  I hear conservatives listing all the people who should not be able to vote--no ID, felon, poor, not a property owner, not fluent in English, even female! I don't hear conservatives arguing for voting rights for all citizens.


One of the problems, in my opinion, is that the loudest voices on the conservative side are usually the ones constantly berating the system and calling for restrictions.  They are loud, and they tend to make the moderate conservatives look bad.  And even worse, the ability to "market" their ideas through channels like Fox News gives them credibility in the eyes of many moderate conservatives.

Once these ideas are planted, it snowballs.  But it should be possible to get the facts.  There should be no reason why we cannot have these allegations checked out, and quickly fixed if a problem is discovered.  The voting citizens of our country should not be in fear that their vote will get flipped by a computer hack, or that their ballot will be tossed into a dumpster.

Back in 2008 when the extreme right nutters were calling for Obama to be dismissed as a non-eligible candidate, nobody talked about the actual process for clearing the requirements.  The only thing that I ever heard was how the entire thing was obviously a liberal conspiracy!  WTF?  So, in the united States of America, arguably the most advanced country in the world, a person can throw their name in the hat, even thought they are not even a citizen, and they get to run for President?

This is the core fo the problem, IMO.  If one can't spend a few minutes getting informed, then it is best not to pretend like one has the correct answer on a topic.  Nor should people jump on every bandwagon that aligns with their political party.
 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 01:23:50 PM »

Voting rights are more important than party affiliation or winning a particular election, but I only hear this perspective coming from liberals and moderates.  I hear conservatives listing all the people who should not be able to vote--no ID, felon, poor, not a property owner, not fluent in English, even female! I don't hear conservatives arguing for voting rights for all citizens.



Back in 2008 when the extreme right nutters were calling for Obama to be dismissed as a non-eligible candidate, nobody talked about the actual process for clearing the requirements.  The only thing that I ever heard was how the entire thing was obviously a liberal conspiracy!  WTF?  So, in the united States of America, arguably the most advanced country in the world, a person can throw their name in the hat, even thought they are not even a citizen, and they get to run for President?

This is the core fo the problem, IMO.  If one can't spend a few minutes getting informed, then it is best not to pretend like one has the correct answer on a topic.  Nor should people jump on every bandwagon that aligns with their political party.

I agree absolutely! I always wondered about that birther crap-- like someone on a basement laptop could find out something that the Homeland Security people just ignored. Do these people think that nobody does a background check on presidential candidates? Doesn't a person need a security clearance to gain access to military secrets? Does the Pentagon and Secret Service just hand the keys to the Oval Office and the nuclear codes over to any secret terrorist illegal immigrant African Muslim who wanders in?

If that were really the case, there would be nothing left of the US. There should have been a 9/11 attack every day, led by this secret terrorist illegal immigrant African Muslim. Wouldn't Al-Qaeda like, completely own us by now? Wouldn't the White House website be in Arabic? Wouldn't Michelle and the girls be in burkhas? Or is Obama just biding his time until the next four years, when he goes all Taliban and lowers the hammer of sharia law on us all?[1]

No wonder these people hate the government-- they think that the military and the state department is full of morans like them.
 1. Sigh. And wouldn't Obama have closed Gitmo, ended aid to Israel and stopped bombing Muslim people in other countries?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:25:30 PM by nogodsforme »
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline jetson

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2012, 01:56:00 PM »
nogods - sadly, my own dad worked for the Air Force Electronic Security during the cold war (he was a Russian Linguist), and he believed the birther movement.  I think he still believes it.  Apparently, the only time our government is trustworthy, is when there is a Republican running the show.  IT's as if the conspiracy team springs into action every now and then, and suddenly the entire government, and even military is under suspicion.

They conveniently forget that there are likely tons of military members who disagree with the platform of their commander-in-chief, but they don't walk off the job in protest! 

When I grew tired of arguing, I just gave up and said that I didn't care if he was a citizen or not.  What else could I do?


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2012, 03:30:13 PM »
I know. I can't figure out patriotic military people who are birthers.

It does seem that conservatives trust the government almost too much when a perceived fellow traveler is in charge-- eg. Reagan, arguably one of the worst things to ever happen to the US middle class. And the Patriot Act, rendition, torture etc. under the Bush administration went unnoticed by the same people who are now tea partying and birthing themselves silly. 

Obamacare! Horrors. Helping people get private health insurance and requiring insurance companies to actually insure people= the end of the free world. Obama is more conservative than Nixon (another hero to right wingers). The Nixon admin would probably have implemented real socialist European-style National Health Care and a guaranteed minimum income if there had been no Watergate scandal.[1] But these people act like Obama is Marx, Lenin, Mao and Castro all rolled together and covered with cheese-eating surrender monkey French communist caramel.
 1. Another reason to hate Nixon-- the lost opportunities....
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Nam

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 03:55:01 PM »
The thing about most Republicans pre-Reagan is that today, they'd never get elected president as a Republican[1] because they would be too liberal.

Nixon -- put through, and signed Health Care legislation.

Lincoln -- was not a Christian. Before he was in politics, he was, what I consider, to be a Strong Atheist. Also, he was in favor of Civil Rights (accept for Native Americans).

Grant -- believed in "Separation of Church and State"

Actually, if you look at the Republican party pre-1940 it could be seen as being the "liberal" party. It's only when they decided to try to get the "Southern vote" was when the started to capitulate to values and Ideology they were never really in favor of. That was about around the 1940s, or so and I don't feel went into full force 'til around the 1980s to early 1990s.

The Democratic party, at one point, was the "minority" party. And the Republicans were the majority. Now look at them.

50 years from now, they may be considered a 3rd party.

-Nam

 1. by Republicans
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Offline kin hell

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Re: GOP by hook or by crook
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2012, 02:32:32 AM »
I'm adding this extra as it does add to the process of deciphering the shonky results
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/27/gop-rigging-elections-for-romney/


Quote
The election for Giffords was such a landslide for the Democratic candidate that even this tactic of shifting votes around was insufficient to overcome the true vote counts, but it is clear that the fix was in. The tabulation machines were subtracting votes from the Democrat, adding them to the Republican And in race after race in Arizona, the same fix is found going back to 2006.

Vote counts should never go down.

You do not go to the polls and “unvote” for one or more candidates to take votes away from them; you vote for a single candidate, your vote is added to the total they have already received, and their votes increase. Vote counts should either hold steady or go up. When vote counts go down, it indicates fraud. Full stop.


When you expand your search, looking for this pattern, investigation reveals that this vote tampering was not just restricted to Arizona.

When one examines comparisons of primaries nationwide, you will note that the same pattern is found. It is statistically improbable for this pattern to happen in even a single race. To have it happen in every primary race in states with Republican leadership? A statistical impossibility.

....and I aprove of the generosity of spirit that at least allows the possibility that Mitt didn't know....

Quote
Using this electronic trail, it is possible to reconstruct the actual vote tallies, and therefore determine how many votes were shifted. You can see how vote counts were subtracted from several candidates and then added to the chosen one–Mitt Romney’s–tally:

Examining the final vote tally, it is clear: Romney did not win the Republican nomination at all.

He had lost the nomination to Rick Santorum. Romney is now in a position where he can never know if he could have won honestly, because the entire race has been dishonest from the beginning. Even if Mitt Romney is declared the winner on Election Day in November, and even if vote counts seem to back that up (at least before the results are examined for more of this vote fraud and outright theft), his administration should forever be considered illegitimate.

The Republican party is no longer in touch with American values. It has turned to these tactics in order to retain power, and if you have to cheat and lie to win, then perhaps your cherished conservative policies, talking points and plans are not truly popular with the majority of Americans, no matter how fervently you wish you could force them on everyone.


again I'd like to point out that my position is democrat or republican, doesn't matter, if you truly believe in a democratic process, then just the remotest possibility that this shit is real should be causing real active questioning about just what is going on.


Let's say it's false, where is the normal response of over the top vitriolic overwhelming denunciation by the GOP?

Let's say it's false, then where is the mathematical and statistical debunk, where is the falsified records?

And if it is not false, what does it actually mean for the US if Romney somehow gets in?




And I forgot to answer a specific question of Mr B's,   

....no I don't think the only way an opposition might win power is by fraud, but I do think I'd have to be an idiot not to be concerned about the very real possibility that the attempt is being made under your noses as we speak.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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