Author Topic: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country  (Read 1952 times)

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Offline Timo

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 01:35:08 AM »
I don't know how serious stuffin is being with respect to Condi Rice, et al.  But let me just say that these sorts of arguments, whether made seriously here or not, and which I hear from time to time make me want to hurl objects at people.  The notion that the only way a black person can arrive at espousing politically conservative views is through some form of brainwashing or worse, out of some craven desire to please their white masters is deeply offensive as it denies us our very autonomy.  Couldn't it just be that black people sometimes find conservative arguments compelling?
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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 08:03:40 AM »
Allen West Maybe?

I wish he was just racist.  Allen West is mentally ill.  I mean that with complete seriousness and concern for his well being and the well being of the country.  We should not have mentally ill people in congress.


How about Marco Rubio or Bobby Jindal? 

Possibly and probably, respectively.  Many Indians I know try to be all chummy with black people, as if they are all comrades in the common struggle of people with more pigmentation.  Once the black people are out of the room though, they try to get all chummy with the white people by freely dropping the N bomb and talking about what lazy theives black people are and how they all carry knives. 

Bobby Jindal is a swine whether he is racist or not. And if he enacts laws and policies that disproportionately hurt black people, does it really matter what he "really" is?


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Offline stuffin

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 07:22:08 PM »
I don't know how serious stuffin is being with respect to Condi Rice, et al.  But let me just say that these sorts of arguments, whether made seriously here or not, and which I hear from time to time make me want to hurl objects at people.  The notion that the only way a black person can arrive at espousing politically conservative views is through some form of brainwashing or worse, out of some craven desire to please their white masters is deeply offensive as it denies us our very autonomy.  Couldn't it just be that black people sometimes find conservative arguments compelling?

I do not believe these black individuals are/were brainwashed into being conservative. Maybe along the way there was some indoctrination and proselytizing helping solidify their beliefs. Yes, they most likely find conservatism compelling. However, they seem to go against the grain of most all of blacks which makes me question reasoning and motives. So are they ignoring what is happening to the majority of blacks? Why are they not using their obvious influence to help those other blacks? Are they embracing the whitey for the rewards? Or, are they real, swallowing the conservatism line and are full-fledged members of the club? I could also see them disliking (prejudice) other blacks because their behaviors conflict with their own views and attitudes. We will probably never know the truth, but I would imagine there is a mixture of issues which determine their individual positions.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 07:27:42 PM »
Uncle Tom is a bit strong. They are appreciating being in certain (white) circles. Colin Powell is the only one didn't fully suck up to the White Bread Mayonnaise Republican upper crust philosophy.

Didn't he throw his hat in the presidential ring at one point only to back out because of death threats?
I don't recall the full story, just that he was going to, then he wasn't.


Found this quote at CNN;
Quote
Retired Gen. Colin Powell has a choice blend of political and military experience, and many thought he'd make a great president, but Powell said Wednesday that he just didn't have it in him.

His wife, Alma, had feared that such an endeavor would change their family life. She also had concerns about Powell's safety, he said Wednesday on CNN's "American Morning."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 09:21:43 PM by stuffin »
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »
I do not believe these black individuals are/were brainwashed into being conservative. Maybe along the way there was some indoctrination and proselytizing helping solidify their beliefs. Yes, they most likely find conservatism compelling. However, they seem to go against the grain of most all of blacks which makes me question reasoning and motives. So are they ignoring what is happening to the majority of blacks? Why are they not using their obvious influence to help those other blacks? Are they embracing the whitey for the rewards? Or, are they real, swallowing the conservatism line and are full-fledged members of the club? I could also see them disliking (prejudice) other blacks because their behaviors conflict with their own views and attitudes. We will probably never know the truth, but I would imagine there is a mixture of issues which determine their individual positions.

You would probably be surprised to discover that there is a large number of blacks who readily identify with conservative values. Maybe not necessarily the Republican party in general but conservative none the less. It has been argued by several prominent black leaders past and present that liberalism has destroyed the black community and that more conservative values will be their saving grace.

Whether you agree with the argument or not is mute. It has been made. I found an interesting article the other day that I have been chewing on. It initially starts of talking about Bill Cosby's speech 4 years ago in Detroit’s St. Paul Church of God in Christ and segues into a personal perspective about the Great Fall of black society in America.

I don't know how accurate the article is but at the very least it confirms that black conservatism is not something that occurs in a vacuum.

Quote
Shortly after Cosby took his Pound Cake message on the road, I wrote an article denouncing him as an elitist. When my father, a former Black Panther, read it, he upbraided me for attacking what he saw as a message of black empowerment. Cosby’s argument has resonated with the black mainstream for just that reason.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2012, 08:56:45 PM »
   Of course this is only my opinion, but I think we all make a mistake when we only use the color of a person's skin to explain their politics.  While we have many African American leaders that are conservatives, we also have very many more that are liberals.  Wealth may have something to do with it, but if you think of Oprah Winfrey and her wealth, my guess is she is strongly on the liberal side.

   I think there are many reasons why African Americans may tend to vote liberal.

   -There was a dust up with Ann Coulter on "The View" where Whoopi could hardly stand the rewriting of history (in order to push a controversial book) that Ann was selling.

   -The whole birth of Obama bs that republicans dig up is the kind of stuff that hurts them.

   -I believe more African Americans can identify with immigrants than on the side against immigration that republicans generally have.

   -My guess is, while Bill Cosby rightly puts pressure on men who desert their responsibilities as fathers, and refuses to allow African Americans to take a back seat to anyone, he probably voted for Obama and will again because of how he would view the tea party/Paul Ryan extremists, not because he is black.

   -I would think that overall, many African Americans that are employees and not employers vote democratic for the that reason, knowing that republican interest tends to be more for the employer.   I would think the mentality of black union Detroit auto workers toward the wealth of  GM would be the type of thing that would keep a black man voting democratic.

   -On abortion, my guess is that many, but not all, African American women are like many white women, not wanting the government to make laws telling them what they can and cannot do.

   I like Al Sharpton.  I liked him when he ran for president and spoke the truth like no other politician - that's why he'd never make it - much like Romney in the debate where he flat out lied about his economic position while in front of the lights.

The republicans would do well to move to the middle with more than just words.  Then yes, people with, what did Steven Biko's prosecutor call it - brown skin, I think, not black, may begin to vote for republicans that truly have their interests in mind, not dismiss a black man in the 47% as expecting a handout.  Treat a man like that and expect his vote - horrible.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2012, 09:19:40 PM »

You would probably be surprised to discover that there is a large number of blacks who readily identify with conservative values. Maybe not necessarily the Republican party in general but conservative none the less. It has been argued by several prominent black leaders past and present that liberalism has destroyed the black community and that more conservative values will be their saving grace.

Whether you agree with the argument or not is mute. It has been made. I found an interesting article the other day that I have been chewing on. It initially starts of talking about Bill Cosby's speech 4 years ago in Detroit’s St. Paul Church of God in Christ and segues into a personal perspective about the Great Fall of black society in America.

I don't know how accurate the article is but at the very least it confirms that black conservatism is not something that occurs in a vacuum.

Quote
Shortly after Cosby took his Pound Cake message on the road, I wrote an article denouncing him as an elitist. When my father, a former Black Panther, read it, he upbraided me for attacking what he saw as a message of black empowerment. Cosby’s argument has resonated with the black mainstream for just that reason.
You would probably be surprised how many liberals have conservative views, I'm one. My concern is keeping conservatism in check, cause I feel in its extreme form it tends to strangle the interchanging of ideas. Right now we are seeing an up tick of extreme conservatism in the USA (for whatever reason).

I do agree liberalism contributed to many of the problems the black community is facing.  It will take time to turn it around, but progress is certainly being made. It wasn't intentional by the liberals, but it sounds like the black conservatives are saying it was the plan.
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Online nogodsforme

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2012, 09:36:39 PM »
Black people are very conservative, as are many Latinos. So are Muslims, surprise surprise. If Republicans wanted to have the widespread support of black and brown people, they could do it yesterday. All they would have to do to tear a big chunk of the electorate away from the Democrats is a handful of very easy things.

1)Repudiate the ignorant racist elements in the party vigorously and loudly. Kick the Birthers and anti-Islam "bomb Iran" folks and the white supremacist nutbags out of the party. Stop pretending that racism does not exist but that the "liberal media" is the problem. There is at least one whole tv network dedicated to conservative views and numerous radio talk shows that do little more than encourage ignorance and spew racist claptrap.

2)Embrace the fact that the US black and Latino success story is the quintessential American Dream fulfilled. Because it is true. And you don't have to glorify slavery or denigrate Africa and Latin America to do that.

3)Stop lying about the role of government in people's lives. Social services like housing assistance, medicaid, food stamps, unemployment and welfare help far more white people[1]than brown and black people, yet they are used by conservative politicians like racist code. And then middle and upper class white people don't want to pay the taxes to support these programs--because the money all goes to "those undeserving lazy people".

4)Promote intelligent young black and brown people to important posts. Condi Rice is one of the most knowledgeable and accomplished people that the Republicans have in their ranks. Why was she not considered for VP or even the top slot? Why was a simpleton like Rick Perry or a crackpot like Ron Paul more "electable" than she?

5)Start valuing competence and integrity over ideology. A George Bush (who can't be bothered to pronounce the names of foreign leaders correctly) or a Herman Cain (whose astounding ignorance about world affairs was breathtaking) do not inspire confidence that Republicans are serious about governing the most powerful country in the world.

But I am not worried about conservatives making large inroads into the black and brown communities. So far, Republicans have not shown movement toward any of my low-cost common sense suggestions. They don't think they need anyone but white people's support to win elections. An upgraded version of Nixon's Southern strategy is still in place[2]. Racist code is enough to manipulate a large percent of working class white folks to vote against themselves, take away any protections from corporate power and give rich people tax cuts.  And when all else fails, they try to keep people who might not support them from voting with dirty tricks and unnecessary voter id laws.

However, demographics are not in their favor. This country will have more brown and black people than white in many states and urban areas. The Republicans will have to raise the voting age to 50 or deny voting rights to anyone who has ever been arrested, or anyone in debt or below a certain income or something else unconstitutional like that to stay in power.

Or they could just do a few of the right things. I won't be holding my breath. Republicans clearly would rather have the Honey Boo Boo vote than mine. &)
 1. especially white elderly people in nursing homes, disabled white folks, rural white folks and white children
 2. Ironically, Nixon's domestic policies were far more liberal than Obama's but nobody is calling Nixon a socialist....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Quesi

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2012, 11:03:00 PM »
I don't know how serious stuffin is being with respect to Condi Rice, et al.  But let me just say that these sorts of arguments, whether made seriously here or not, and which I hear from time to time make me want to hurl objects at people.  The notion that the only way a black person can arrive at espousing politically conservative views is through some form of brainwashing or worse, out of some craven desire to please their white masters is deeply offensive as it denies us our very autonomy.  Couldn't it just be that black people sometimes find conservative arguments compelling?

Well, I have to say that I don’t understand how a black person could espouse politically conservative views.  I also don’t understand how a woman could espouse politically conservative views. (Or latinos or poor people or rural people or urban people or laborers or young people or senior citizens or… well… maybe there is a lot I don’t understand)  But in the case of Condi Rice, the most baffling question is how could a brilliant person espouse politically conservative views? 

As far as I’m concerned, she is THE brilliant conservative mind of our generation, in the way that Williams F Buckley was THE brilliant conservative mind of the generation that came before.  I followed Buckley’s work throughout my youth, fascinated, horrified, unable to look away.  And I’ve felt the same way about her.  How can she be as brilliant as she is, and still fall victim to such absurdities?  How can she still be so trapped in a cold war mentality?  How can she apply that template to every situation she faces?  I don’t understand? 

She is even more of an anomaly to me than Buckley ever was. 

Offline Nick

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2012, 11:27:02 PM »
Maybe it is time to start to distinguish between the term conservative and what the GOP has become.   (Bat sh*t crazy)
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Online screwtape

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 07:42:36 AM »
Whether you agree with the argument or not is mute.

Moot, not mute.  Everyone gets that wrong. 

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 04:52:29 PM »
I don't know how serious stuffin is being with respect to Condi Rice, et al.  But let me just say that these sorts of arguments, whether made seriously here or not, and which I hear from time to time make me want to hurl objects at people.  The notion that the only way a black person can arrive at espousing politically conservative views is through some form of brainwashing or worse, out of some craven desire to please their white masters is deeply offensive as it denies us our very autonomy.  Couldn't it just be that black people sometimes find conservative arguments compelling?

Well, I have to say that I don’t understand how a black person could espouse politically conservative views.  I also don’t understand how a woman could espouse politically conservative views. (Or latinos or poor people or rural people or urban people or laborers or young people or senior citizens or… well… maybe there is a lot I don’t understand)  But in the case of Condi Rice, the most baffling question is how could a brilliant person espouse politically conservative views? 

As far as I’m concerned, she is THE brilliant conservative mind of our generation, in the way that Williams F Buckley was THE brilliant conservative mind of the generation that came before.  I followed Buckley’s work throughout my youth, fascinated, horrified, unable to look away.  And I’ve felt the same way about her.  How can she be as brilliant as she is, and still fall victim to such absurdities?  How can she still be so trapped in a cold war mentality?  How can she apply that template to every situation she faces?  I don’t understand? 

She is even more of an anomaly to me than Buckley ever was.
Same here, about Buckley and Rice. I could listen to William F. talk all day, as long as I didn't pay any attention to what he was saying. He was so elegant and so very full of sh!t.

As for Rice, she got under the sway of white male Soviet studies scholars early in her career and made her name as one of the only women and the only black person in the room. I have a female colleague who also did Soviet Studies back in the day. She told me that the conservative old men who ran the show did not allow anyone into the club if you didn't agree with their ideology.

If you wanted to study Russia, or any of the "Stans" you had to do Cold War. Not ethnic minorities or women's rights or religion in the USSR. Just Cold War. That is where all the academic funding was. So much for the idea that liberal hippies were running universities in the 1960-80's. Condi benefited financially and politically from those contacts and became an academic, than an oil executive, then the cabinet post. She was way smarter than George Bush and had to tutor him on world issues. I wonder how she felt about that....

The other concept is more psychological than practical. I have noticed that many of the more conservative black people are dark-skinned. Herman Cain. Clarence Thomas. Condi. Anita Hill. My late older brother. Booker T. Washington. Mary McLoud Bethune. Separate is okay as long as we can make it equal, and the money is nice.

On the other hand the "radical" blacks are often quite light-skinned. Angela Davis. Louis Farrakhan. Malcolm X. Lani Guinier. WEB Du Bois. Me. Full human rights for everyone, please. Now.

What is the dynamic here? Well, race, obviously, duh.

If you are dark, you know you are black and have nothing to prove in terms of blackness. You can afford to hang with whites and be conservative. You get racial slurs from whites, but other black people know you are black and understand the deal. You want money and power and are playing the game. You get called an Uncle Tom by some blacks, but you don't care either because money and power. (Many black people refer to someone like that as "the conservative brother" with the understanding that everyone must find their own way and he is still black, ie a brother.)

On the other hand, if you are light, you have the constant burden of proof to other blacks. You have obvious white ancestry to overcome. You have to prove that you are down and not a sell-out or a wannabe. You have to prove that you don't want to be white and are rejecting all signs of white privilege. You can't be better than other blacks. You can't take a chance on being a conservative. You will find it hard to survive the psychological pressure. You go to the other extreme of being extra politically black to make up for the almost-white features.

This is not a conscious choice and begins in early childhood. Dark and light children are treated differently from birth in black families even today. My dark brother and sister were coddled and pushed to be smart because they would face more racism in the world. My light brother and I were treated more harshly and assumed to be mental lightweights.

It is one legacy of slavery where the lighter child would have an easier life-- a light girl could be a house slave or even mistress to the master. But the dark child would always be a field slave, would have to prove her intelligence constantly, etc. It's like the less attractive child has to be smart while the pretty one can skate on appearance.

Anyway, that's my analysis. I know that blacks with more Latino and Caribbean ancestry have different racial dynamics going on, and you therefore find Caribbeans like light-skinned conservative Colin Powell who don't fit the pattern. Interested to see what other people think about this.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Jag

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Re: I'm ashamed to share a planet with this man, much less a country
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2012, 03:13:35 PM »
I'm in agreement with Nick's suggestion, and perhaps should have been a bit more explicit in my original post. It wasn't intended to be a blanket condemnation of republicans in general, it was specifically in reference to the racism that seems to be embedded in the very vocal segment of the party that I realize is not a completely fair picture of all republicans.

I have conservative leanings, in the traditional sense. I'm fully in favor of fiscally conservative values - I want evidence to back up proposals before throwing boatloads of money at them, I support limits to entitlement programs, and firmly believe that the country works best when the majority of it's citizens are actively involved in improving their own quality of life. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. I'm a lifelong non-party voter. I have voted for both republicans and third party candidates in the past, and expect to do so in the future as well. That said, I do tend to vote a bit more democrat than not, and probably by a smaller margin than one might suppose, given what I've shared in these posts.

I would be delighted to see the republican party of my youth active today - sadly, that party appears to be long gone. I'm just barely old enough to remember who they were, and can recall the days before they got in bed with the far-right religious groups. That, in my opinion, is the flaw in the current republican party. I don't think the most extreme positions are favored by the majority of republican voters - in fact, I would argue that quite a few of them aren't all that aware of them - but those positions are inextricably linked to the party as a whole, whether that's fair or not.

We barely have a functional two-party system as it is. We need both side working for the best interest of the country, not having pissing contests with each other.

Edited to correct an irritating grammar error. Yes, I grammar-nazi myself.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:41:50 PM by Jag »
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