Is Satan really the bad guy in the bible?

[Lectus]

While thinking about arguments to post here http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23650.29.html I decided to google  the phrase in the title to see if I could find any text on this subject.

I found this cool text: http://daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

This gives food for though.

Satan is always portrayed as the bad guy, the root of all evil. Yet the references of him doing bad things in the bible itself don't exist.

People just assume he's bad. But he could just be a popular leader trying to save people from dictatorship.

This makes the bible severely flawed in its sense of justice. You just take a martyr to persuade people into fear and obedience and then you claim you love all.

What are your thoughts?

[pianodwarf]

What are your thoughts?

I'd say that's pretty much on the spot.  The only real exception I can think of to this is the Book of Job, where Satan does do a bunch of nasty stuff to Job and his family, but even then, it's only because Yahweh says it's OK and dares Satan to do it.

[Lectus]

Probably evil HAD to exist to balance with goodness.

Satan was just the martyr to suffer forever in hell.

Then Yahweh can't be 100% good.


Of course, the most logical answer that theists don't accept is this:

Good and evil are just concepts inside humans' brains.

Then humans had to make up gods and demons to explain it.

So in essence they're just useful metaphors to dictate society's behavior. They're not existing beings.

Underdeveloped brains of other animals don't need these explanations. They're happy just to live, eat, reproduce.

Ignorance is bliss, you know. 

[changeling]

God killed about 2.5 million people in the bible if you only count the ones numbered in the bible texts.
That doesn't count killing the entire human race in a flood except for Noah and his family.

Satan is only reported to have killed 10 people to help God win a bet.

Yep, sounds like satan is the bad guy to me.

[Seppuku]

My thoughts are pretty much the same as yours. It's somethig I've tried arguing myself.

I like using this image (or some variation of) to illustrate the point more:



In the bible God has a much bigger taste for blood than Satan, Satan is viewed as evil because he wishes to corrupt humans, have them think for themselves and defy God. God denies them knowledge of ignorance and obedience.

To offer a Satanic perspective of this, I think these lyrics offer an interesting representation of the the forbidden fruit story.

Reconcile not with the fear of the snake
But embrace it as your own
Inject its venom into your veins
And replant the seed that gives growth
Still shrouded in mystery
Until you arise above perception
A veil of ignorance is in motion
Continuing throughout generations

(A veil of ignorance is in motion
Continuing throughout multiple generations
Let me be the one that deliver you from the deceit
And back into perfect accordance with the laws of nature)

The snake is notoriously tempting
But the snake is fair
What is worse than not knowing
to live or disappear?

From it we can see that Satan is fair and wishes to break the ignorance of man and to overcome the deceit of God and to embrace their natural state. The forbidden fruit is knowledge. What God expects of his believers is ignorance. It might explain why so many Christians are ignorant of any knowledge thrown their way, because they have blind faith in their God and the reality he had given them. The don't question that, because it is the way of Satan, who continuously finds himself defiant of God's ways.

The band members are LaVeyan Satanists (to put the lyrics in context), which is a sect that believes that knowledge is important and considers ignorance to be a sin. It promotes individualism and free thought and when you consider their virtues, they actually seem a lot less cruel than Christianity. But I would say it does have things we'd consider to be bad. I see a lot of woo in the Satanic bible, but I don't think the woo is necessarily taken seriously, at least, not by all.

From a statement from their leader of the Church of Satan, Peter Gilmore:

Satanists do not believe in the supernatural, in neither God nor the Devil. To the Satanist, he is his own God. Satan is a symbol of Man living as his prideful, carnal nature dictates. The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will. Thus any concept of sacrifice is rejected as a Christian aberration—in Satanism there’s no deity to which one can sacrifice

So on the other hand we instead of this view of Satan not as some evil entity seeking to wreak havoc and do all sorts of evil things, we have him as being human desire, or basically, our id. What's natural, our instincts. God always seeks to control mankind in the bible, God always tries to repress these things we'd consider to be natural emotions, heck, the 7 deadly sins are human emotions: lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride. Homosexuality is considered a sin, even thought it's complete natural. Sex is natural, but it's only considered okay when it's for pro-creation and the couple are married under the sanctity of the Lord.

My conclusion? Satan wants humans to be human, God wants them to be obey.

However, these are just biblical interpretations. I prefer the idea of Satan being the guy rooting on freedom and God being the evil dictator, because it's exactly what it'd be if we put them into a human context. But alas, we ourselves, do not have the magic decoder ring. Could be much of the bible represents an internal struggle of the human psyche - the fight between the id and the ego, but we could never truly know.

[Lectus]

The bible also tries to demonize other religions:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -- Jesus

"You shall have no other gods before me." -- Exodus 20:2

Baal was a god worshiped by Phoenicians that Christians turned into a demon.

All deities are turned in demons to make the monotheism work.

This is clearly a powerful man-made way to convert people from other religions since they'll fear they're worshiping demons.

And this is a path that generates prejudice and war by mindless fanatics. This is NOT a path for peace.

If it wasn't for fear manipulation created by mankind then God could just have said:
"I'm God. You're free to worship whatever you like. But I still love you.".

No fear imposed. Just love.

But I guess it wouldn't get much adepts? It wouldn't make money for priests?

[Nick]

Mormons think Satan and Jesus are brothers.  So I guess all of us are just puppets in a sibling rivalry.

[screwtape]

Baal was a god worshiped by Phoenicians

Canaanites[1] too. He was part of a pantheon with yhwh, called the elohim.  literal translation "the lords".  Also, the name often used in the OT for God.  El was the chief god of the elohim and the father of yhwh, baal, and the rest of the gang. El was the god of israel.  In fact, israel is a theophoric of el[2].  That is, the name israel includes their god's name. Isra'el. You will notice, many jews pronounce it that way.

Similarly, Jerusalem is a theophoric for the god Shalim^Wiki - the god of dusk and twilight.  Also associated with the morning star, lucifer. ouch.

Additionally, there was more than one yhwh and el.  El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.  El of the mountain.  El of the valley.  They were local gods who had priests all over the place.  It was josiah who consolidated them and declared all the others[3] to be foreign gods.  That way he had control over the high priest and had less resistance to his rule.     

I feel if more people knew this stuff then judaism and xianity would be seen by more people as obviously mythology.


edit - shalem -->shalim  + wiki link

1.	that is, the people who became jews
2.	and conspicuously, not yhwh
3.	Baal and Mrs yhwh aka Asherah

[pianodwarf]

I feel if more people knew this stuff then judaism and xianity would be seen by more people as obviously mythology.

I've seen your posts on this matter in the past, and I agree, it's quite an eye-opener.  Where did you learn all this stuff?  Are there any books/websites/whatever that you recommend?  I'd like to learn more about this -- I know very little about it.

[screwtape]

evolution of god, by Robert Wright

who wrote the bible by Richard Elliot Friedman

And general reading around.  It has accumulated over the 6 7 years I've spent on this site.

[12 Monkeys]

What are your thoughts?

I'd say that's pretty much on the spot.  The only real exception I can think of to this is the Book of Job, where Satan does do a bunch of nasty stuff to Job and his family, but even then, it's only because Yahweh says it's OK and dares Satan to do it.

being Ommni-max God knows Job will not give an inch,God knows the outcome. Still he allows Satan to go as far as killing his family.....who is the evil in this,Satan or God?

[jaimehlers]

I feel if more people knew this stuff then judaism and xianity would be seen by more people as obviously mythology.

I didn't know most of that either.

Goes to show that most people don't really understand the first thing about their religion's history.

[darkdragon46]

Satanists do not believe in the supernatural, in neither God nor the Devil. To the Satanist, he is his own God. Satan is a symbol of Man living as his prideful, carnal nature dictates. The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will. Thus any concept of sacrifice is rejected as a Christian aberration—in Satanism there’s no deity to which one can sacrifice

I think this is the main idea here.  Either you make yourself your own God and live as you see fit, or you can give that control to something else.  Every religion has this theme, no matter which side they take.  Whether it is good or bad is really how you look at it and what you want from life.  Do you want to give up that control of yourself, no matter the circumstance?  Or do you want to keep it and go your own way.  Really, everything in religon boils down to that question.

Edit: Quotes were messed up

[Bereft_of_Faith]

Demonization of other people's gods is a tactic used not only by the Israelites, but also by the Aryans and the Greeks, who did the same to the indigenous cultures they encountered. There was reputed to be a strong feminine aspect to those foreign gods, as they were conceived by planting cultures.  The demonization of the serpent is a good example.  The serpent is reputedly a feminine symbol.  This is seen in the 'demons' of the Gorgon sisters, Naga, Tiamat etc.. (Typhon, Virtra were male but served as demons older than the gods that fought them)  Yahweh mentions taming the Leviathan (IIRC), and we all know how he felt about the serpent in the Garden.

The origin of reverence for the feminine among planting cultures and for the masculine among herding cultures should be fairly easy to suss out. 

We can also point to the story of Cain (the older brother) and Abel, (the younger brother) where god was not pleased with Cain's offering of his harvest but happy with Abel's offering of meat.  The jewish religion, and so those that followed as well, are based in insecurity and a good deal of misogyny.

[oogabooga]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Is there anything more that needs to be said? God creates everything. Evil included. Case bloody closed. There's no 'problem of evil'. There's just god doing evil shit.

[Seppuku]

Thanks for the quote. It will be EXTREMELY handy in any discussions where somebody tries to use the whole "hot and cold" and "dark and light" anology, where God only creates good and evil is just the absence of good. But hey, God created darkness too, which we know is not physically possible, because darkness is an absence of light, but hey, people might have not known that when this was written.

Just as Christians attribute good to the will of God, they should attribute evil to the will of God. Christians account God for the good, but we don't see them hold him to account for the evil...because that's man's doing or it's the devil.

[screwtape]

I think this is the main idea here.  Either you make yourself your own God and live as you see fit, or you can give that control to something else.  Every religion has this theme, no matter which side they take.  Whether it is good or bad is really how you look at it and what you want from life.  Do you want to give up that control of yourself, no matter the circumstance?  Or do you want to keep it and go your own way.  Really, everything in religon boils down to that question.

darkdragon, your idea is a very bad one.

No matter what reality is, I want my beliefs to match it, to conform to it, to accurately model it.  To wish the opposite - that reality conform to my beliefs - is a denial of reality.  And what you are saying - make up a god and SPAG on - is a denial of reality in any case. Denial of reality is always a bad thing.

If the churchies are right and there is a god, then that is reality.  And if I do as you say, then I am denying reality as surely as Young Earth Creationists deny reality when they argue against evolution.  This false belief I have created at your behest would keep me from knowing the actual god and keep me from eternal reward.  Conformity to reality fail.

If the churchies a wrong and there is no god, then that is reality.  And if I do as you say, then I am denying reality.  To SPAG is to delve in one's own id.  A god that I would create and do as I see fit is simply self indulgent.  For me or you, that may be not too awful, provided we are generally healthy, well adjusted and socialized people.  But to suggest everyone do that is a recipe for the end of life on this planet.  While most people are decent enough, too many are not. 

Take for instance, the Lafferty brothers, Ron and Dan.  Two fundamentalist mormons who believed they could discern the voice of god and make prophesy.  A clear cut case of SPAG.  They had a falling out with their brother, Allen and blamed his wife, Brenda, for it.  She did not toe the FLDS line and they resented that.  God then told them to murder her and her infant daughter.  What a coincidence.  So, they did.[1]  Tragic.  And all because two fools were in denial of reality, doing exactly what you suggest. 

1.	for a full reporting of this horrible crime, see Under the Banner of Heaven, by Krakauer  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven:_A_Story_of_Violent_Faith

[screwtape]

Thanks for the quote. It will be EXTREMELY handy in any discussions where somebody tries to use the whole "hot and cold" and "dark and light" anology, where God only creates good and evil is just the absence of good.

It is less handy than you may think.  You will need additional munitions.  The typical xian response is "that word for evil is mistranslated.  It really means 'woe' or 'calamity'".  I suggest busting out Strong's Concordance.  DTE opened a can of industrial strength whoopass in wwgha v1 on that very subject.  Indespensible reading:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4871.msg79324#msg79324

merciful jesus, bsdman still isn't walking right, and that was 5 years ago.

I gotta start a DTE thread like the kcrady old school thread I did.

[Seppuku]

True, but I like collecting quotes I can use to help support my own arguments. As for mistranslations, my usual tactic is to check out multiple translations and if they say "it's out of context" I read the context and usually I am found to be right. Checking now, I know there's alternative translations like 'doom' and 'disaster', but still, they are pretty grim things. Kings James Bible and other translations do say 'evil' and I know KJB is a popular choice of bibles. So it might not be good to use 'evil' for all types of Christians. Some might suggest, "well, disaster and doom...for sinners!" which of course, we know that's not the case. I think to build up that argument we need other parts of the bible, in particular parts where God is cruel to test people's faith or see how the faithful seem to become the victim of disasters or are doomed, and God is admitting to be the creator of it.

To my mind, putting the translations together, you could at least give an argument that God is responsible for 'natural evil', but not human 'evil'. So hurricanes, tsunamis and the likes. Various Christians already claim this themselves, but usually with the idea that people are being punished, so they still don't accept that it happens to true Christians and I think in that regard there is a difficult battle. But then it always is.

(Ir)Regardless, we can tell God is cruel and bitter and not just loving. I am trying to build up a case for it, though arguably, I already have a big one, but the more the better . Wrath and love, vengeance and forgiveness and various other paradoxes. Most of the things people tend to associate with the devil are present in God. Heck there's Ezekiel 5, it' pretty fucked up. It's how God rewards 'defiance'. Pestilence is something we might associate with witches and them conversing with the devil, when really it is a method how God gets his vengeance on those who defy his word. I don't see why God gets credit for the good and Satan gets credit for the bad.

5 The Lord God proclaims: This is Jerusalem! I have set her in the middle of the nations and surrounding countries. 6 But she rebelled against my case laws and my regulations with greater treachery than these nations and surrounding countries, who also rejected my case laws and didn’t follow my regulations. 7 Therefore, the Lord God proclaims: You have become more turbulent than these nations around you because you haven’t obeyed my regulations or followed my case laws. You haven’t even followed the case laws of the nations around you! 8 So now the Lord God proclaims: I myself am now against you! I will impose the case law penalties on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of you, I will do what I’ve never done before and will never do again—all because of your detestable practices. 10 Therefore, parents among you will eat their children, and children will eat their parents. I will impose penalties from case laws on you and scatter all that is left of you to the winds. 11 Therefore, as surely as I live, this is what the Lord God says: Because you made my sanctuary unclean with all your disgusting practices and detestable things, I myself will shave you. I will not shed a tear. You will have no compassion, even from me. 12 One-third of you will die of plague and waste away by famine among you. One-third will fall by the sword all around you. And one-third I will scatter to all the winds, letting loose a sword to pursue them. 13 My anger will be complete. I will exhaust my wrath against them and take my revenge. Then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken against them in my zeal and consumed them in my wrath. 14 I will turn you into a desolation to the ridicule of the nations all around you, in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You will become an object of ridicule, a mockery, and a horrifying lesson to the nations all around you, when I impose penalties from case laws against you in anger, wrath, and overflowing fury. I, the Lord, have spoken. 16 When I launch my deadly arrows of famine against you, I have released them for your destruction! I will add to your famine and completely cut off your food supply. 17 I will send famine and wild animals against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will come to you, and I will bring the sword against you. I, the Lord, have spoken.

Yes, I know there's a key phrase somebody may point out:

I will do what I’ve never done before and will never do again

However, there's plenty of examples where we do see a wrathful God, so if you decided to be pedantic, no God hadn't done that before and didn't do it again, but that's because he's creative and doesn't necessarily reuse his methods, like a serial killer who takes pride in his work.

[darkdragon46]

I think this is the main idea here.  Either you make yourself your own God and live as you see fit, or you can give that control to something else.  Every religion has this theme, no matter which side they take.  Whether it is good or bad is really how you look at it and what you want from life.  Do you want to give up that control of yourself, no matter the circumstance?  Or do you want to keep it and go your own way.  Really, everything in religon boils down to that question.

darkdragon, your idea is a very bad one.

No matter what reality is, I want my beliefs to match it, to conform to it, to accurately model it.  To wish the opposite - that reality conform to my beliefs - is a denial of reality.  And what you are saying - make up a god and SPAG on - is a denial of reality in any case. Denial of reality is always a bad thing.

If the churchies are right and there is a god, then that is reality.  And if I do as you say, then I am denying reality as surely as Young Earth Creationists deny reality when they argue against evolution.  This false belief I have created at your behest would keep me from knowing the actual god and keep me from eternal reward.  Conformity to reality fail.

If the churchies a wrong and there is no god, then that is reality.  And if I do as you say, then I am denying reality.  To SPAG is to delve in one's own id.  A god that I would create and do as I see fit is simply self indulgent.  For me or you, that may be not too awful, provided we are generally healthy, well adjusted and socialized people.  But to suggest everyone do that is a recipe for the end of life on this planet.  While most people are decent enough, too many are not. 

Take for instance, the Lafferty brothers, Ron and Dan.  Two fundamentalist mormons who believed they could discern the voice of god and make prophesy.  A clear cut case of SPAG.  They had a falling out with their brother, Allen and blamed his wife, Brenda, for it.  She did not toe the FLDS line and they resented that.  God then told them to murder her and her infant daughter.  What a coincidence.  So, they did.[1]  Tragic.  And all because two fools were in denial of reality, doing exactly what you suggest.

1.	for a full reporting of this horrible crime, see Under the Banner of Heaven, by Krakauer  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven:_A_Story_of_Violent_Faith

SPAG is not giving up control, but taking it.  I have seen this argument many times when I talk to people about this.  Giving control to something outside of yourself is not making up a god and going with what you just made up.  That is what the church does, that is what your examples are doing and it is what satanists are doing.  Following your made up creation is just following yourself.

That you believe EVERY god is made up is clouding your judgement here.  Anytime you hear 'give control to a higher power' you think SPAG or something similar, no?

[Gohavesomefun]

God kills everyone in the great flood (25 million), apart from Noah and those lovely little animals...The devil has killed ten.

[darkdragon46]

God kills everyone in the great flood (25 million), apart from Noah and those lovely little animals...The devil has killed ten.

Yes....but I saw the last count closer to 2.5 million, but w/e.  And some of the animals weren't so little.

Are you going to make a point with this, or just leave it there?

[Gohavesomefun]

God kills everyone in the great flood (25 million), apart from Noah and those lovely little animals...The devil has killed ten.

Yes....but I saw the last count closer to 2.5 million, but w/e.  And some of the animals weren't so little.

Are you going to make a point with this, or just leave it there?

My apologies.

God has what I think; an obvious disregard for life in general if they can so easily end so many peoples lives at once. Whilst the devil is not explained as the good guy, his achievments of what I would call; evil are dwarved by what God had did.

[darkdragon46]

My apologies.

God has what I think; an obvious disregard for life in general if they can so easily end so many peoples lives at once. Whilst the devil is not explained as the good guy, his achievements of what I would call 'evil' are dwarfed by what God had done.

So in your view, why does Satan temp Jesus in the desert?

[Lectus]

My apologies.

God has what I think; an obvious disregard for life in general if they can so easily end so many peoples lives at once. Whilst the devil is not explained as the good guy, his achievements of what I would call 'evil' are dwarfed by what God had done.

So in your view, why does Satan temp Jesus in the desert?

How can you be tempted by someone you created offering what's already yours? And he only does that because you allow?

It's not really a temptation. Jesus had zero chance of accepting his offer.

[darkdragon46]

How can you be tempted by someone you created offering what's already yours? And he only does that because you allow?

It's not really a temptation. Jesus had zero chance of accepting his offer.

Okay, but why did he let Satan temp him?  Just for the lolz?

[Lectus]

How can you be tempted by someone you created offering what's already yours? And he only does that because you allow?

It's not really a temptation. Jesus had zero chance of accepting his offer.

Okay, but why did he let Satan temp him?  Just for the lolz?

I don't know bro. It makes no sense.

God made himself flesh so he could be tempted by an "evil" spirit he created himself.

But he's omniscient and already knew this.

And he considers himself a hero for resisting the temptation he planned.

Looks like he creates evil scenarios just to be the hero and get out of boredom.

[darkdragon46]

I don't know bro. It makes no sense.

God made himself flesh so he could be tempted by an "evil" spirit he created himself.

But he's omniscient and already knew this.

And he considers himself a hero for resisting the temptation he planned.

Looks like he creates evil scenarios just to be the hero and get out of boredom.

I guess that brings us to why he created anything in the first place.  According to you, it's because he was bored.  Right?

[JeffPT]

How can you be tempted by someone you created offering what's already yours? And he only does that because you allow?

It's not really a temptation. Jesus had zero chance of accepting his offer.

Okay, but why did he let Satan temp him?  Just for the lolz?

There's no such thing as Satan.  And Jesus, if he existed, was not divine because there is no such thing as the Christian God either.  So what we have to figure out here is why the authors of Matthew, Mark, and Luke (not John, because the desert temptation is conspicuously missing from that gospel) wanted people to hear the story of Jesus' temptation in the desert. 

One possibility is that they wanted to portray Jesus as strong willed in the face of temptation.  That he could resist the most powerful of seductions.  Another possibility is that the authors wanted to show that Jesus was just like the rest of us, in that he faced temptation all the time and that it was hard to overcome it, but we should try to overcome it anyway.  Those are off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more possibilities.  Either way, the stories are being used to teach something as opposed to being an event that actually took place. 

The only thing that would make absolutely no sense at all is if Jesus was God himself made in the flesh.  That probably explains why the author of the Gospel of John left it out... because in that gospel above all others, we are told that Jesus is basically God in the flesh.  The three synoptic gospels are much less into the whole 'Jesus and God are one and the same' thing.  And if Jesus were actually God himself, he wouldn't allow himself to be tempted in the desert like that.