Author Topic: The main reason Obama has my vote...  (Read 6055 times)

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Offline none

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2012, 10:00:17 AM »
I think Ryan has pretty eyes. Wouldn't vote for him if he were the last candidate on earth, but the eyes? Lovely.  ;D
he is the last candidate, right behind this guy

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 10:03:31 AM »
I guess that Onion article must have been inspired by Chuck Norris & wife's actual ad:

Quote
Chuck Norris: America faces '1,000 years of darkness' if Obama wins re-election
http://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/04/13645398-chuck-norris-america-faces-1000-years-of-darkness-if-obama-wins-re-election?lite


This guy is a nut ,,,,Bush Jr. took more American rights away after 9/11 than Obama would if he served 10 terms as president
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline none

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2012, 10:12:41 AM »
I guess that Onion article must have been inspired by Chuck Norris & wife's actual ad:

Quote
Chuck Norris: America faces '1,000 years of darkness' if Obama wins re-election
http://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/04/13645398-chuck-norris-america-faces-1000-years-of-darkness-if-obama-wins-re-election?lite
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ud3pK5Wa90
This guy is a nut ,,,,Bush Jr. took more American rights away after 9/11 than Obama would if he served 10 terms as president
yeah, but they are afraid of the darkness that Obama represents and if they can get rid of this

and vote for the the anti-darkness

they don't have to deal with this darkness

because there goal is this
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 10:14:54 AM by none »

Offline jedweber

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 11:40:20 AM »
2 choices, one pure flaiming shit, or one slightly less shitty =/= choice.

Even if I accept your characterization, you're still describing a clear choice. Why should I do anything that would increase the chances of "pure flaming shit" to win over "less shitty"?

Barring some unforeseen and absolutely unprecedented event, the only possible outcomes are that either Romney or Obama will win in November. ANY choice we make (staying home, voting third party, etc.) can only play into one of those two scenarios.

If we're dissatisfied with the choice (as I am too, to some extent), I think the place to fight is in the primaries, state and local elections, off-year elections, etc. Building up the progressive wing of the Democratic party (or resuscitating the "moderate/liberal" wing of the GOP) might make the choices more palatable in the future.

Also, despite Obama's failings, I think it's an outrageous false equivalency to claim that he and Romney are nearly the same. The oil companies, hedge fund managers, and modern-day robber barons like the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson certainly don't think so. One side wants to blatantly transfer more of the nation's wealth to a small elite, the other wants to at least retard the process slightly. One side may disappoint unions now and then, the other wants to utterly exterminate them. One side at least passed a flawed effort to expand access to health care, the other will be completely beholden to the insurance companies and for-profit providers. One side may be lukewarm towards marriage equality and reproductive rights, the other wants to amend the Constitution to ban them! And this list can go on...


Offline shnozzola

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2012, 04:53:48 PM »
Received this from the Obama folks, attributed to David Axelrod:

Quote
Sheldon Adelson, the conservative billionaire Las Vegas casino owner, has pledged to give up to $100 million -- whatever it takes -- to defeat Barack Obama.

We know it's not out of love for Mitt Romney, so why part with so much money? As President Clinton reminded us last week, sometimes the answer is as simple as arithmetic.

So let's do the math: According to a new report from the Center for American Progress Action Fund, Adelson could see up to $2 billion in savings under Mitt Romney's tax plan versus the President's plan. That's how much Romney's policies would favor millionaires and billionaires.

If Mitt Romney wins -- $2 billion more for Adelson. If Barack Obama wins, millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share.

It's a highly cynical but straightforward calculation.Here's how it would work for Adelson in a Romney-Ryan administration:

    -- Romney would keep in place the Bush tax cuts, and cut Adelson's income taxes by an additional 20 percent. Adelson savings: $1.5 million per year on income he earns as CEO.
    -- Romney's plan eliminates taxes on foreign profits like the ones Adelson makes on his Asian casinos. Adelson savings: $1.2 billion.
    -- Romney's plan maintains the current low tax rate on dividends. Adelson savings: $120 million per year.
    -- Romney's plan removes the estate tax. Adelson heirs save: $8.9 billion.

I honestly can't think of a more straightforward contrast in this election.

We don't have Sheldon Adelson, and with all due respect, we don't want him.

We're relying on more than 3 million grassroots donors, who are giving an average of $58.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2012, 10:32:55 PM »
I guess that Onion article must have been inspired by Chuck Norris & wife's actual ad:

Quote
Chuck Norris: America faces '1,000 years of darkness' if Obama wins re-election
http://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/04/13645398-chuck-norris-america-faces-1000-years-of-darkness-if-obama-wins-re-election?lite



What I find disturbing and amusing is that this FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR message doesn't contain one single fact about Obama. Not one. And it primary message, mythological crap.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 01:00:20 AM »


TruthOT:  Just who is John Huntsman Jr, and why should anyone vote for him?
You obviously think that he's worth electing, and I want to know why you think that is.  And please, don't just say again that it's because the other two parties deserve to be kicked out of power.  That isn't a reason to elect Huntsman, and it's not like we can vote the Democrats and Republicans out without voting someone else in.

Don't just tell us that you think Huntsman would make a good Presdient.  Tell us why he would make a good President.

To be really general, my reasons (as someone that leans Libertarian) are as follows:

Huntsman is not an ideologue that panders to party extremes. He has experience in office as a successful and well liked governor and has more foreign policy and diplomatic experience than either major party candidate. He is fiscally conservative while at the same time being surprisingly socially progressive.

Gary Johnson is the former governor of NM who is currently running for president on the Libertarian ticket.

Offline Timo

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 04:22:56 AM »
A few things:

Huntsman is not an ideologue that panders to party extremes.


Politics is a team sport, though.  Pandering is par for the course, especially in a time like the one in which we find ourselves, with a particularly polarized electorate and an even more polarized set of elected representatives.  I don't think that there's a way to govern on the national level without occasionally pandering to one part of your coalition or another.

That said, I appreciate that Huntsman has resisted a lot of what I think is making his party dangerous these days.  That thing he tweeted, that 'call me crazy, I believe in science' or however he phrased it.  That was one of my favorite moments in the campaign.

If some set of circumstances led him to the nomination I don't think he'd pander as hard as Mitt is now...nobody would.  But he'd pander at least as much as Obama.  He'd still talk about how we're the best, most indespensible nation that Allah has seen fit to place on the face of his earth or whatever.  He's probably said something like that on the campaign trail even.  (I guess I could look it up, but I'd rather shoot from the proverbial hip than work on my google-fu.)

He has experience in office as a successful and well liked governor...

True.  And this is actually one of the things that infuriated me about the Republican primary process.  You had not only Huntsman, but Gary Johnson, who was a two term governor that was also well liked.  And yet, everyone involved it seemed was prepared to dismiss them out of hand in favor of people like Cain, like Bachmann, and like Gingrich, who were popular in conservative circles but toxic everywhere else.

As someone who supports Obama, but is well to his left on issues like drug prohibition, mass incarceration and foreign policy, I would have loved to have seen him challenged from his left on those issues by someone like Johnson instead of just his right.

and has more foreign policy and diplomatic experience than either major party candidate.

...not really.  I guess Romney's foreign policy or diplomatic experience really begins and ends with the Olympics, and whatever trade missions he conducted as governor, so Huntsman definitely wins there.  But I don't care how long you were a diplomat, I don't think that's really all that comparable to the experience of being a sitting president for any length of time.  It's just a different level of play.  I might accept your claim if he'd have served say, 3 years here, 4 years there as like a cabinet level official in this or that agency, but that's not what he was doing.  Not to take anything away from dude, but there just aren't that many people that have played at Obama's level.  (As terrible as I think her record is, Condi Rice is someone who I might say has comparable experience on the Republican side.)  And none of them were running to unseat him this time around.

He is fiscally conservative while at the same time being surprisingly socially progressive.

...not really.  What surprised me was that during the primary, Huntsman was treated as some sort of squishy moderate, I guess because he worked under Obama, when he's pretty damn conservative.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only social issue where I remember him deviating from the rest of the folks on the stage was that he supports civil unions.  I guess that makes him a radical in today's Republican party.  But civil unions are so 2004.

That said, Huntsman was the governor of a very conservative state and ran for the presidential nomination of an especially conservative Republican party.  I find it not that hard to believe that he's shifted his personal views a ways to the right to make himself more palatable to his intended audience.

Gary Johnson is the former governor of NM who is currently running for president on the Libertarian ticket.

I like Gary Johnson.  Like I said, there are a lot of issues where I think he's closer to me, as a liberal, than Obama.  I occasionally talk to Ron Paul people, who in my experience tend to be well meaning if not a bit...off, and I like to point them his way.  I think he has a lot of the same qualities that made Paul compelling without the crackpot shit.   (Even though, I find Johnson's economic views to be kind of crazy....but in an 'I'm a liberal, he's a conservative, the economy is complicated, I don't think your ideas will work' kind of way, as opposed to an 'I don't care what Alex Jones said, that's insane' kind of way.)

So yeah....

I kind of think of Jon Huntsman as the Platonic ideal of a conservative Republican.  I disagree with him about a whole host of issues, but I'm also pretty sure that he wouldn't ignore data in favor of some bullshit about first principles.  Really, it's the same reason that a lot of conservatives I know, conservatives like my pops, like Obama a lot, especially when contrasted to his opposition in Congress.  They get the feeling that ultimately, he wants to do what works.  That's the vibe I get from Huntsman.  Maybe I'm wrong.  We can't know.  He didn't win...honestly, I don't even know why he ran.

Also, whatever shade we might want to throw at the Republicans, Huntsman is and has been a strong supporter of Mitt Romney since he suspended his campaign.

Peace
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Offline Chronos

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2012, 08:47:53 AM »
I will vote for Obama.

As will I, which I have known for a long time now. Sanity vs Insanity is an easy choice.

Obama has made strides in reducing the damage that was done in the Bush Jr. years, and if the congress would stop trying to block him, he'd have gotten a lot more done. The republicans have, literally, and for the last four years, made it their goal to get Obama out of the white house. Their obstructionist attitude is almost worse than their radical right wing "morals," and is damaging this country. 

It seemed impossible that they could do anything worse than the constant moralizing of yesteryears, but it's amazing what they can accomplish when they get downright pissy after a black man moves into the white house. It's easier to get cooperation out of a bunch of hungry, tired 5 year olds than the majority of Republicans.

Romney is a complete and utter nutjob who will take away every right that women have fought for my entire life.
If nothing else, I would vote against him for this reason.

I don't think Romney is a nutjob. I've known a few people like him, one in particular comes to mind, and Romney is a point-for-point match. He's not dumb or whacked -- he's socially retarded. He is so secluded that he has nothing in common with the common man. He has never had to deal with Average America and, worse, he cannot think quickly on his feet about anything that doesn't involve a balance sheet. Just witness the shit that he says when he enters a restaurant or a school, or just greeting a crowd -- he comments on how the trees are the right height. He does this repeatedly. He would rather analyze their balance sheets and cash flow statements, and in that circumstance he would likely be appropriately articulate. But just watch him greet people by shaking their hands and listen to the oddities that flow out of his mouth. He clearly doesn't know how to deal with people. He doesn't want to be President, he wants to be a CFO.

In his attempt to learn how to deal with people, he has become a nerd-turned-lounge lizard, or at least the best lounge lizard that a Mormon with a pole stuck up his ass can be. He whispers sweet nothings (or as close as he can muster) into everyone's ear while coming across like a white-suited, white-patent-leather Pat Boone, but clearly without the ability to sing, which is very unfortunate. Whatever charm he has ends as soon as his mouth opens. He wants to bed every girl in the joint but instead has found a way to insult just about everyone within a 100 foot radius.




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Offline Chronos

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2012, 08:51:36 AM »


He definitely wears Mormon Magic Underwear ...
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
Ryan's disturbing lack of lips creeps me out.

What I find disturbing is his affection (or is that affliction?) for Ayn Rand.

Let's join a President who is devoid of personality (Romney) with a Vice-President who is devoid of facts.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Garja

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2012, 09:02:06 AM »
Magic underwear.  Yet another thing that a Mitt Romney Presidency will do on Day 1.  Send all Secret Service protection home, saving the tax payers millions every year.  Mitt Romney believes that his underwear will do a far better job stopping a bullet than another human body ever could. /satire
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Offline Nickolas

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2012, 09:40:00 AM »
History, recent and otherwise, illustrates repeatedly that the perspectives of the American political elite have important spillover effects on the rest of the world. From the perspective of someone standing outside the United States (and not incidentally the Christian faith) and who regards the US and Americans in a generally favourable light, what is happening within the borders of your country is cause for concern -  To quote Sam Harris:

"Those with the power to elect our presidents and congressmen - and many who them­selves get elected—believe that dinosaurs lived two by two upon Noah's ark, that light from distant galaxies was created en route to the earth, and that the first members of our species were fashioned out of dirt and divine breath, in a garden with a talking snake, by the hand of an invisible God.

Among developed nations, America stands alone in these convictions. Our country now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dimwitted giant. Anyone who cares about the fate of civilization would do well to recognize that the combination of great power and great stupidity is simply terrifying, even to one's friends."
also:

"Imagine the conse­quences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency." (Letter to a Christian Nation).


Indeed it is. The rest of the world is anticipating November with considerable interest. Lots can happen between then and now. If somehow your Mr. Romney pulls a rabbit out of a hat we may be stockpiling dried and canned goods in our larders.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 09:43:37 AM by Nickolas »
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Offline Nickolas

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2012, 10:00:47 AM »
Are those white gowns tucked in the corner by the American flag?  ;)


[/quote]

What I find disturbing and amusing is that this FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR message doesn't contain one single fact about Obama. Not one. And it primary message, mythological crap.
[/quote]
I can live with questions I cannot answer, but I cannot live with questions I cannot ask.

Offline Nick

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2012, 10:04:52 AM »
Are those white gowns tucked in the corner by the American flag?  ;)


Must be teabillies uniforms for cross burnings.

What I find disturbing and amusing is that this FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR message doesn't contain one single fact about Obama. Not one. And it primary message, mythological crap.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2012, 11:00:29 AM »
Are those white gowns tucked in the corner by the American flag?  ;)


Martial arts Ghis or Choir robes.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
I know several people who share this point of view

Anything that the Christian Right hates so much and that must be defeated at all costs, must be the correct choice.

I get so much right-wing propaganda about Obama and how he's evil and must be destroyed ... er, voted out. It just makes me want to vote for him more.


However, I also know several people who share this point of view from the opposite side

Quote
Anything that the Liberal Left hates so much and that must be defeated at all costs, must be the correct choice.

I get so much left-wing propaganda about Romney and how he's evil and must be defeated. It just makes me want to vote for him more.

And here I am in the middle pissing everybody off by not showing "loyalty" to one brand over the other.

My wife, who is not even remotely interested in politics, holds the opinion that Romney will take away women's rights. I know she didn't come to that conclusion on her own through research or paying attention to the facts.

Romney expressed more interest in fixing the economy than anything else. I don't even think it would be possible for the GOP to change abortion law by themselves. Besides, there are more issues on the table at the moment and personally I think the country could use a good CFO right about now. Our house is burning down and we're arguing over the stain on the carpet.

If we don't fix the economic problem soon, there wont be a house with carpet left for us to argue over.

I am not certain that Romney is a "good" CFO but at least he is focused on the most immediate problem facing us at the moment.

Obama is just singin kumbaya and roasting marshmellows while he double checks his personal Drone hit list.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2012, 12:16:35 PM »


These people need to be put on an island together..
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Timo

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2012, 12:42:26 PM »
...I don't even think it would be possible for the GOP to change abortion law by themselves.

I feel like a broken record.  But I also feel like this can't be said enough.  It's true that the GOP can't outlaw abortion by themselves.  It's a matter of constitutional law and therefore overturning it would require either a constitutional amendment, which they could never build enough support for, or a Supreme Court decision.  But here's the thing.  If Republicans win in November, they will very likely get to send a few justices to the Supreme Court and could therefore change the balance of the Court and overturn Roe if and when it's challenged.  Furthermore, in the immediate term, Republicans would have all sorts of options available to them to limit access to abortion services, options like defunding Planned Parenthood or other health care providers that also perform abortions.  In the states, there have been all sorts of maneuvers taken in an attempt to make abortion effectively illegal.  Mississippi, for example, has exactly one remaining clinic that performs abortions.  One.  In the whole state.

Besides, there are more issues on the table at the moment and personally I think the country could use a good CFO right about now. Our house is burning down and we're arguing over the stain on the carpet.

If we don't fix the economic problem soon, there wont be a house with carpet left for us to argue over.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you likening issues like abortion to a stain on the carpet?  If so, I find that to be an absurd view.  In many cases, abortion is a life or death issue.  And family planning more broadly is nothing if not an economic issue.

I am not certain that Romney is a "good" CFO but at least he is focused on the most immediate problem facing us at the moment.

Sort of.  To hear the Republicans tell it, our most immediate problems are high taxes, and high debt and deficits.  Our most immediate problem is our unemployment problem, which actually contributes to our debt problem.  They tend to speak of the relationship as working the other way--ie high debt contributes to unemployment by creating uncertainty in the market or whatever.  So nah, I mean I guess sort of kind of, they're focused on the economy in their way.  But thus far, their campaign has been more about complaining about the state of the economy than proposing concrete solutions to help get it growing again.  I mean, they're so quick to tout the dynamic effects of their tax plan but not exactly quick to tell anyone about what exactly they'd like to see the tax code look like.

Obama is just singin kumbaya and roasting marshmellows while he double checks his personal Drone hit list.


Bullshit.  Obama passed the stimulus and the auto bailout, made a point of finding a way to extend unemployment benefits in spite of conservative opposition, and has worked to pass jobs bills that have been blocked by Republicans in Congress that are again, more concerned about debt than unemployment.  Right now Congress is essentially closed for business on this front, which is why Bernake is ushering in another round of quantitative easing.

That said, Obama is definitely making his list and checking it twice.  But a focus on national security and on the economy are not mutually exclusive.  Indeed, a president needs to be able to maintain both at the same time and at all times.
Nah son...

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2012, 02:06:04 PM »
I feel like a broken record.  But I also feel like this can't be said enough.  It's true that the GOP can't outlaw abortion by themselves.  It's a matter of constitutional law and therefore overturning it would require either a constitutional amendment, which they could never build enough support for, or a Supreme Court decision.  But here's the thing.  If Republicans win in November, they will very likely get to send a few justices to the Supreme Court and could therefore change the balance of the Court and overturn Roe if and when it's challenged.

And the Democrats can filibuster any nominee the Republicans bring to the table if that nominee is too far to the right. Appointing Supreme court justices is one of the most crucial functions of the president but he does not have sole discretion over who gets appointed. Still no guarantees that Romney can stack the deck.

Quote
Furthermore, in the immediate term, Republicans would have all sorts of options available to them to limit access to abortion services, options like defunding Planned Parenthood or other health care providers that also perform abortions.  In the states, there have been all sorts of maneuvers taken in an attempt to make abortion effectively illegal.  Mississippi, for example, has exactly one remaining clinic that performs abortions.  One.  In the whole state.

That's the tough one. Most people do not oppose abortion for purposes of medical necessity and rape or incest. Which was the argument presented in Roe v. Wade...the right to abortion for rape and medical necessity. That could even extend to reasonably cover serious birth defects. The main objection IMO is the issue of elective abortion. Where the woman had consensual sex but did not take measures to protect herself from pregnancy. The majority of Americans don't feel like picking up the tab for their carelessness. I am having trouble finding it now but I linked to a website several months ago that described how over 90% of abortions performed by planned parenthood were elective.

That's not to be confused with the fact that abortions only account for like 3% of planned parenthood's services. IIRC the argument was that tax payer funding should be cut off from PP's abortion services, not everything else they provide. But I might be remembering this wrong.

This is one of those subjects where some people in America have demonstrated the will to kill those who perform abortions. So it's clearly a very strong emotional divide. Especially when you begin to realize that some women choose abortion for other reasons. I don't think that was covered under Roe v. Wade. But there you have it. I don't think abortion should be available to everyone for any reason they choose. Just like I don't think guns should be available to everyone for any reason they choose.

However, Romney has not expressed an interest in changing the law. As far as he is concerned the issue was settled. And since it is a constitutionally protected right, no one man or no one party can change that.

Do you think it's "right" to have to pay for the abortion of a female fetus just because she is a female and the mother wants a son for her husband?

Do you think it's "right" to have to pay for an abortion for a woman who got carried away in the moment of passion and made a careless mistake?

Me? I don't think elective abortions should be illegal but I don't think that service should be subsidized by our government. Just because I have the right to own a gun it doesn't mean I think the government should provide one for me.

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you likening issues like abortion to a stain on the carpet?  If so, I find that to be an absurd view.  In many cases, abortion is a life or death issue.  And family planning more broadly is nothing if not an economic issue.

I am saying that the stain on the carpet is a minor issue compared to the house that is on fire. If America can no longer support itself then how can it provide money for social services?

Besides, planned parenthood isn't the only organization that provides services for women's health. The Department Of Health through local  Health Departments provide the same services, often for free through public funding. No one has proposed to cut their funding. What's the difference? Public Health Departments don't provide abortions.

...

And I apologize...I will have to address the rest of your comments when I get back. I have run out of time.
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Offline Timo

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2012, 04:33:07 PM »
And the Democrats can filibuster any nominee the Republicans bring to the table if that nominee is too far to the right. Appointing Supreme court justices is one of the most crucial functions of the president but he does not have sole discretion over who gets appointed. Still no guarantees that Romney can stack the deck.

Nah, not really.  I think you're kind of ignoring recent history.  Republicans in the Senate have been using the filibuster at unprecedented rates in the last two Congresses.  They still allowed for the confirmation of Sonya Sotomayor and Elena Kagen.  Likewise, the Democrats allowed for the confirmation of Samuel Alito and John Roberts in the last administration.  See, here's the thing.  If Romney wins he will likely enjoy a Republican majority in the Senate and Democrats will have to eventually confirm someone that Romney chooses.  And Romney will not choose someone that he thinks will uphold Roe.

Most people do not oppose abortion for purposes of medical necessity and rape or incest. Which was the argument presented in Roe v. Wade...the right to abortion for rape and medical necessity.

Nah, the decision about Roe had nothing to do with whether or not a child was conceived through a sexual assault or through consensual sex and the plaintiff in that case, known there as "Jane Roe" was not raped, nor had she claimed to be raped.  And even if she were raped, the decision revolved around the right to privacy, which would apply to any abortion performed within a certain time frame.  (They sought to balance a woman's right to privacy with the rights of her unborn child, and so their reasoning is tempered by questions of fetal viability and all that stuff.)

The majority of Americans don't feel like picking up the tab for their carelessness.

This is utter nonsense.  Federal dollars cannot legally be used to pay for elective abortions.  No one is asking Americans to pick up the tab, so to speak.  And even if they were, it's much more expensive to carry an unwanted child to term than it is to abort a fetus.  And I personally find it ridiculous that the same people that are so adamant about the sanctity of life, tend to be in favor of gutting the sorts of programs that these children and their mothers would depend on if the child were brought to term.

IIRC the argument was that tax payer funding should be cut off from PP's abortion services, not everything else they provide. But I might be remembering this wrong.

You are remembering this wrong.  Mitt Romney has said specifically that if he's elected president we will "get rid of that."  The "that" being Planned Parenthood.  He obviously can't do that.  But the argument is that, even if government funds given to Planned Parenthood are used for things like cancer screenings, resources are fungible and therefore any money added to Planned Parenthood's budget is more money that they can use to provide abortions.  If that's the case though, then every argument that the religious right has used to justify state funding for some functions of parochial schools or for religious charities is destroyed.

However, Romney has not expressed an interest in changing the law. As far as he is concerned the issue was settled. And since it is a constitutionally protected right, no one man or no one party can change that.

Nah, you're wrong about this.  Again, we're a few Supreme Court justices away from changing it.  And the Republican party has been very creative in finding ways to undermine Roe without actually overturning it.

And no, Romney has taken all sides of the abortion issue over the course of his political career.  Many social conservatives don't trust Romney because he was previously pro-choice.  And prior to Todd Akin running his mouth about "legitimate rape,"  Mitt Romney would have told you that he, like his runningmate, supports a personhood amendment, which would not only make abortion illegal under nearly all circumstances, but would also outlaw some forms of contraceptives.  See:



About half way in they get to abortion.  You can clearly see Romney supporting the notion that life begins at conception should be enshrined in our law and explaining that he would nominate conservative justices. 

Now, is that what he really believes?  I don't know.  I think that Mitt Romney is an opportunist with few core convictions.  And therefore, I think that in guessing at how he might behave as president, it's more important to take a look at the views of the people in his coalition.

Do you think it's "right" to have to pay for the abortion of a female fetus just because she is a female and the mother wants a son for her husband?

Do you think it's "right" to have to pay for an abortion for a woman who got carried away in the moment of passion and made a careless mistake?

Me? I don't think elective abortions should be illegal but I don't think that service should be subsidized by our government. Just because I have the right to own a gun it doesn't mean I think the government should provide one for me. 

That's neither here nor there.  The federal government does not and cannot subsidize elective abortions.  See: the Hyde amendment.

Personally, I think that we should subsidize abortions for poor women that seek them.  But I'm one of those extra liberals that actually donates to Planned Parenthood and the Planned Parenthood action fund when I have the money to do so.

If America can no longer support itself then how can it provide money for social services?

American can't support itself now?  I mean look, we can talk about the debt or whatever but the fact of the matter is that our debt is currently close to 100 percent of GDP.  For some perspective, Japan is at about 200 percent of GDP.   Like Japan, most of our debt is owed to ourselves.  And nah, the house isn't on fire.  Interest rates are low.  And investors continue to find US bonds to be a reliable bet, even after we were downgraded.  Greece, the nation to whom conservatives would like to compare us, is at about 150 percent of GDP.  The crucial difference between Greece and us (and also Japan) is that we're in control of our monetary policy.

The house is not burning down.

Besides, planned parenthood isn't the only organization that provides services for women's health. The Department Of Health through local  Health Departments provide the same services, often for free through public funding. No one has proposed to cut their funding. What's the difference? Public Health Departments don't provide abortions.

Here's the thing.  That's true.  But Planned Parenthood serves millions of people as it stands.  And the Republicans aren't just promising to defund Planned Parenthood.  They're promising to "rein in government spending," which under proposals like the Ryan budget would include government services like public health departments...and really anything that isn't defense.  Do you really believe that under a Republican administration in which Planned Parenthood was defunded that poor women would have the same access to the sorts of services that Planned Parenthood is providing?  If so, can you explain it to me?  It would make me feel much better about the possibility of a Romney victory.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 05:03:07 PM by Timo »
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Offline Garja

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2012, 05:30:05 PM »
Hope this doesn't sound too heartless, but I'd rather pay for an abortion than from the consequences of an unwanted child. First off purely financially welfare is much more expensive than an abortion, and an unwanted child is less likely to receive the messes art among of parenting to prevent him/her growing up to be an asshole.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2012, 05:41:50 PM »
In addition to what's been said about women's rights, I mightily fear that Ryan/Romney will continue with their plans to widen the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots." He's been quoted as saying that he thinks the median income in the US is $200k - $250k. WTF??? I'd LOVE to make $200,000!!! He's completely out of touch with the common person, and has absolutely no clue what a real middle class is. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but his rich supporters. That scares the crap out of me.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2012, 05:45:36 PM »
In addition to what's been said about women's rights, I mightily fear that Ryan/Romney will continue with their plans to widen the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots." He's been quoted as saying that he thinks the median income in the US is $200k - $250k. WTF??? I'd LOVE to make $200,000!!! He's completely out of touch with the common person, and has absolutely no clue what a real middle class is. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but his rich supporters. That scares the crap out of me.
Hell, the $77,000 tax break on the care of his horse is more than most people make in a year.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2012, 05:46:46 PM »
Hope this doesn't sound too heartless, but I'd rather pay for an abortion than from the consequences of an unwanted child. First off purely financially welfare is much more expensive than an abortion, and an unwanted child is less likely to receive the messes art among of parenting to prevent him/her growing up to be an asshole.
Agree, we don't want The Maury Povich and Jerry Springer shows to run forever.
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Offline Timo

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2012, 06:21:19 PM »
In addition to what's been said about women's rights, I mightily fear that Ryan/Romney will continue with their plans to widen the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots." He's been quoted as saying that he thinks the median income in the US is $200k - $250k. WTF??? I'd LOVE to make $200,000!!! He's completely out of touch with the common person, and has absolutely no clue what a real middle class is. He doesn't seem to care about anyone but his rich supporters. That scares the crap out of me.

To be fair to Romney, he's kind of following the Democratic line that they will hold taxes at current levels for those making less than 250k per year.  He was mistaken to call that middle income, but that's kind of where our conversation has been.  Obama's been making that case since he was but a Senator.

To be unfair to Romney, the only study I've heard of that shows that his plan could possibly work, the Feldstein one, assumes that he's lying about at what income level he'd be removing deductions, 250k, and instead assumes that he'd raise taxes on those making 100k per year plus.  He claims that these sorts of studies are off because they fail to recognize the awesome effects of tax cuts on economic growth...or something.  Paul Ryan emphasizes the same sort of bullshit in his budget.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2012, 06:52:03 PM »
To be unfair to Romney,

That is not being unfair to Romney.  That is being fair to reality.  If that happens to not work out for Romney, that is Romney's problem.
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Offline Timo

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2012, 07:03:57 PM »
Nah, reality has been, thus far, unfair towards Romney.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The main reason Obama has my vote...
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2012, 10:05:13 PM »
Just a couple of quick questions.

Since the government does not provide funding for elective abortions then I'm guessing the "problem" with Planned Parenthood is that someone thinks that they may be using some of the operational funds they receive from government for the purposes of abortion?

What's actually on the table? If PP doesn't use government monies to subsidize their operations then what's the problem?

If the government completely cuts off funding for PP will that shut them down completely?

Are there any proposals on the table to completely defund PP or is that scare talk?

Quote from: Timo
They're promising to "rein in government spending," which under proposals like the Ryan budget would include government services like public health departments...and really anything that isn't defense.  Do you really believe that under a Republican administration in which Planned Parenthood was defunded that poor women would have the same access to the sorts of services that Planned Parenthood is providing?  If so, can you explain it to me?  It would make me feel much better about the possibility of a Romney victory.

I guess I would like to see the specific details of their proposals in their own words. Do they intend to cut the budget for the Department of Health? If so, in what way?

But word on the street is that they don't have any specific details, just lower taxes for the wealthy and cut gov. spending. That sort of generalization greatly hampers my ability to make an informed decision.

I really am sick and tired of hearing how the world will end if one party gets elected over the other. That line of thinking is so pervasive in our everyday conversation that I even went so far as to suggest something similar with our economic situation.

Perhaps the house isn't burning down but our economy is not doing well.

All I can say is that I am not sure that Romney is the right man for the job, but after 3 1/2 years...I am not so sure that Obama is the right man for the job either.

I would like to see a side by side factual comparison of budget policy proposals from both sides of the isle.

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