Author Topic: Prayer in Public Schools  (Read 1732 times)

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Offline Chronos

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Prayer in Public Schools
« on: September 10, 2012, 10:00:20 PM »
Rewriting history while shilling for ...  registertovote.org? I don't think that pollsters agree that only 30% of Christians vote, but somehow these people think that this issue was decided by popular vote. People are dumb.

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Offline Garja

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 10:11:35 PM »
"Evil thrives when God's people do nothing"
Possibly the most unintentionally funny line ever.


Pretty sure some of the most evil shit in history has, in fact; been done by Gods people, often in his name.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Nick

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 05:31:45 AM »
You know if prayer was still in school I bet those evil teachers in Chicago would not be striking right now.  And this will be the most important election in our life times or at least until the next one. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 06:16:47 AM »
Just out of linguistic interest, in American English, can you "set by and do nothing" or should it be, "sit by and do nothing"?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jetson

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 06:28:26 AM »
Gray - such is the way with our American lunatics.  Spelling is second to God.

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 06:46:14 AM »
“Setting at home” sounds like something Jed Clampett would do.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 07:33:36 AM »
Last week my daughter's first grade teacher sent home a parent survey on various issues, including study habits, my child's attitude about school, her strengths, my goals for the year, any health concerns, transportation to/from school, blah blah blah.

The last question was "Are there any holidays your child does not celebrate."  If no, check "All." 

I spent a disproportunate amount of time reading this question over and over and trying to figure out what it meant.   

It is a VERY diverse school, with an emphasis on "global studies."  Probably Catholics represent the largest percentage of the student body.   Certainly lots of Protestants.  Lots of Muslims, including (I think) the principal.  Lots of Jews.  A surprising number of Buddhists, and a small Hindu population.

Last year, in kindergarten, my daughter decorated Christmas trees and menorahs in December, did a lesson on Passover traditions and an earlier lesson on Ramadan, had a parade for Lunar New Year, and sang "This Little Light of Mine" in the auditorium for Martin Luther King day. She also did a unit on Zeus and Hercules.  Each month of the year focused on one region of  the world, and often holidays (both secular and religious) that are celebrated in that region were highlighted during that month. 

I'm fine with all of that.  I knew the school's global theme when I enrolled her. 

I'm thrilled she is getting Spanish in kindergarten onward, will start studying Mandarin in 4th grade, and Arabic in 6th.  I also know that, especially in the higher grades, the "global" theme will focus strongly on earth sciences.  And even in kindergarten, environmental responsibilities were a huge component of the science lessons, and my little 5 year old came home chattering about "ecosystems" and "endangered species."

So what was that question on the parent survey about?  Are there any holidays that she doesn't celebrate?  Ummmm... a one page form would not give me enough room to list all of the holidays that she doesn't celebrate. 

But I'm perfectly happy to have her learn about anyone's holidays and traditions. 

Was this some "cover our ass" thing that the school sent out in case some parent had a fit about the Halloween parade and Satan?  Or making sure that their kids don't bring home decorated paper menorahs? 


Offline screwtape

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 11:46:06 AM »
Prayer in school has mostly been challenged in court by other religious people.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18025.msg400179.html#msg400179

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 11:59:54 AM »
Prayer in school has mostly been challenged in court by other religious people.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18025.msg400179.html#msg400179

Thank you for putting all this research together. 

I really did not know that it was religious people getting pissed at other religious people, that had the greatest impact on restricting organized school prayer.  Now I do!

Offline Gohavesomefun

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 02:16:28 PM »
Nice poster. I liked the use of colour, capslock and underlining; very pretty!
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Offline Garja

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 03:18:08 PM »
Quesi,

Yes, teachers have to spend an inordinate amount of time playing "cover your ass".  Ive only been teaching full time for 3 weeks now and have already sent 1 letter home for "cya" purposes, will do another one in the coming week, and have to be real careful pretty frequently with how I approach certain topics.  For instance, I am concluding a unit on early 20th century immigration to the U.S..  We kinda have to address religious intolerance between protestants and catholics or you aren't really addressing the problem, but its an issue I have to go at with kid-gloves... Walking that line between giving my opinion and trying to make it interesting.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Nick

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 03:22:06 PM »
A lot of teachers are so concerned to cross the line that they have watered down the material so much that class is beyond boring and uninteresting.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 09:44:14 PM »
In America, isn't the 30%-Christian-vote thing sort of mathematically impossible?
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Offline Garja

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 09:52:18 PM »
^ You're letting facts get in your way again!



In all seriousness, it probably is possible, just not likely.  Of course, when you play with the numbers you could still make them say pretty much whatever you want (In this case, just count children or people otherwise unable to vote, and *poof* your numbers are magically lower without technically lying)
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 11:13:14 PM »
This may or may not be an incendiary question...

Is it the public school system's responsibility to teach our children about different religious cultures at a primary level?

Shouldn't that sort of thing be left up to the children's family?

I wasn't taught about religion in school. I wasn't taught about religion in my family either.

It just seems to me that by teaching young children about several different religious practices in a class room environment only serves to teach them that religion (and by extension, all religion) is merely just superstition...or custom....myth, if you will.

I am not certain what the benefit is of teaching them that there are numerous different religious practices.

Is it not a publicly funded war on theistic beliefs?


« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 11:19:33 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 12:07:11 AM »
Teaching that the Earth is older than 6000 years is a publicly funded war on (some) theistic beliefs.

It is a fact that different cultures around the world have different religious and cultural practices.  Knowing this is essential to a student's ability to interact with those cultures and understand the behaviour/beliefs of people in those cultures.  Might this damage a student's faith?  Sure, but so might teaching him or her that the Earth is billions of years old.  Where do you draw that line?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »

Is it the public school system's responsibility to teach our children about different religious cultures at a primary level?

In the UK when I was a child, the state school system taught Christianity only and Protestant theology at that - Catholics were seen as superstitious and given to too many "bells and smells". It was know as "Religious Instruction" and parents could opt out, although the only ones who did were Catholics, JWs, Mormons, and a few other lunatic-fringe sects.

My sons both went to state school and they were taught, in equal measure, the basics behind the three Judeo-Christian religions plus Buddhism, whilst touching on other belief systems.

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Shouldn't that sort of thing be left up to the children's family?
If, by that, you mean, "Should religious teaching be the province of the family?" then you wonder what eduction some children might get. If you mean, "Should parents be able to opt out their children?" then yes, they should.

Personally, I don't think that anyone should be able to hear about religion until they are 21; parents keeping to this would be doing their off-spring a favour; there's no advantage in indoctrinating away the powers of critical thought
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 07:04:13 AM »
Is it the public school system's responsibility to teach our children about different religious cultures at a primary level?

Unless I am mistaken, that is a part of what Social Studies are.  They learn about other cultures.  Part of that is religion.

Shouldn't that sort of thing be left up to the children's family?

Heavens, no.  Most people don't know anything and what they think they know is wrong.

I wasn't taught about religion in school.

I was.  9th (8th?) grade Social studies we learned about buddhism, islam, and possibly hinduism. We also studied xianity.  The history of them, the key figures in their history (not mythology), the basic important beliefs, what their holy books are, their various sects, etc. 

It was purely academic, not indoctrination.  It taught the facts, not myths.

It just seems to me that by teaching young children about several different religious practices in a class room environment only serves to teach them that religion (and by extension, all religion) is merely just superstition...or custom....myth, if you will.

If that is the conclusion to which they arrive, great.  But the point of it is for kids (and by extension, their adult selves) to understand other cultures better so they can make better decisions about policy.  It would help avoid a war on islam if the unwashed populace understood islam does not seek to convert or kill all non-muslims and if they understood what sharia actually was.  Obviously, our curricula needs some work.

Is it not a publicly funded war on theistic beliefs?

No.  It is a publicly funded war on stupidity and ignorance. 
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Offline Garja

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »


Unless I am mistaken, that is a part of what Social Studies are.  They learn about other cultures.  Part of that is religion.


Yup.  I can show you the academic content standards if ya like.

As venomous as religion is, its an undeniably important part of world cultures, you cant really cover history without talking about religion.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 03:53:28 PM »
^^ Liberal propaganda, Garja.  Liberal propaganda I say.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2012, 04:03:30 PM »
I said earlier that I was never taught about religion in school. That is probably not an accurate statement.

It is more likely that I just didn't pay attention.

I am just wondering, in a general sense, about calling peoples attention to the different aspects of religion. Whether or not it's a good thing.

It's not something I feel very strongly about. I just think about how I was raised in such a way as to not pay attention to such things that divide people like religion and race.

As a direct result of not being taught to take pride in my "heritage" or not being forced to attend church It took me a very long time to see the dangers of religion and racism.

So I guess my theory is...if we don't call so much attention to "the issue" or take the time to point out the differences between different people and their beliefs then somehow the tension would eventually fade into the back ground and eventually die.

Like an analogy I made previously about scabs being allowed to heal by not picking at them.


At the same time, though, I fully understand that what you don't know CAN hurt you and that knowledge is power. But one must be aware of the differences between people and understand them before one can exploit them.

I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline Garja

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »
^^ Liberal propaganda, Garja.  Liberal propaganda I say.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2012, 08:28:22 PM »
The christians didn't think of this ...

       
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2012, 06:29:15 AM »
It's one thing to consider college-educated people still believing in god, as there are many, but it's another to consider that most of them don't understand the First Amendment. This is an example of a major absence of civics education.

The location is a conservative Christian area (not where I live) where people think It's freedom OF religion! Not freedom FROM religion. I wonder what they would think about dropping on their knees, facing East and speaking Arabic ... after all, it's Not freedom FROM religion. But, of course, as long as it is their religion it is okay.



I guess these people didn't get the memo written back in 1962, as all of them were born after 1968.

Should we each petition our Boards of Education for a return to civics as a subject to teach in our schools?

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2012, 07:46:47 AM »

This may or may not be an incendiary question...

Is it the public school system's responsibility to teach our children about different religious cultures at a primary level?

Shouldn't that sort of thing be left up to the children's family?


I'm not sure that it is a responsibility, but I think it is allowable.  In my daughter's kindergarten class, the students were taught "about" the various holidays celebrated by members of the student body.  They also get an introduction to various extinct/semi-extinct religions.  I imagine that this instruction will continue through her entire primary education. 

But her school, which is a charter school, has an emphasis on "global studies" including world cultures.  I knew that when I enrolled her, and I think it is perfectly appropriate.

I've written this before, but one day my then then-kindergartner came home and announced that her music teacher was sick, and that they watched a movie "about god" in music class. 

I tried to calm down, and asked her questions about the god movie.  Her story started out with a white bearded god shouting down from the skies, and the anger started rising up inside of me.  But then, as she went on with her 5 year old re-telling of the movie, we got to horses with wings and half-horse /half-people creatures.  Apparently, the god in the movie was Zeus, and it seems that the movie was a segment of Disney's Fantasia. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 08:20:21 AM »
This may or may not be an incendiary question...

Is it the public school system's responsibility to teach our children about different religious cultures at a primary level?

Shouldn't that sort of thing be left up to the children's family?

I wasn't taught about religion in school. I wasn't taught about religion in my family either.

It just seems to me that by teaching young children about several different religious practices in a class room environment only serves to teach them that religion (and by extension, all religion) is merely just superstition...or custom....myth, if you will.

I am not certain what the benefit is of teaching them that there are numerous different religious practices.

Is it not a publicly funded war on theistic beliefs?
Yeah, keep those little buggers in the dark.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 09:04:51 AM »
This image macro on the top I did not expect. It seems to me like they are simply getting not just Evangelicals, but also the common Christian who goes to church every now and then. Whether that person will react or not, it is up to them. I expect that half of them don't let the ad get to them.