Author Topic: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?  (Read 5885 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2012, 07:44:14 AM »


 On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"

Of course I just flip that, "What proof do you have that the whole Bible isn't a clever deception of an evil deity by the name of Yahweh, and Satan is really the good one?"





« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:04:25 AM by Anfauglir »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Lectus

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2012, 08:17:23 AM »
Being an all powerful God would allow you to heal amputees, since you're the creator of everything.

Healing amputees doesn't automatically make you a God though.

If an advanced alien race had technology to regenerate amputees they wouldn't be gods, they would be just advanced technologically.

So, I still wouldn't believe, but I'd be amazed by their knowledge and I'd like to learn it.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2012, 09:06:19 AM »
Whoops!  In my last message, I screwed up the quotes and left a bit of mr logicfaith's text outside the quotes, so it looked like I was saying it - and there's been a couple responses quoting me!  Last couple posts have been amended to make things clear.....!     ;D
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline mr logicfaith

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2012, 01:58:44 PM »
On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"
Of course I just flip that, "What proof do you have that the whole Bible isn't a clever deception of an evil deity by the name of Yahweh, and Satan is really the good one?"

heh... I once actually tried to figure this out.
I came up with

"well, if there was a glass of marbles, next to a glass tipped over, and marbles around it, you'd have more evidence proving the marbles came from the tipped glass."

- of course, if you knew somebody was probably trying to trick you, you could calculate the marble's paths and see if they could have come from the glass tipping over.

- if you couldn't prove they didn't fall out of the glass, and couldn't prove they did, you'd have two options:

1. believe that the glass tipped over and the marbles came out
2. believe that it's a conspiracy to make you think that the glass tipped over.
-- but really, you can't prove it --

Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

Since there's probable cause for satan to try to make you think the 2nd is true, the first is probably true.
You can't really prove it though.

I figure the best you could do is end up seeing exactly how everything works, and if believing / worshipping God is the best thing to do...
 (It'd be better than spending eternity in hell... however, I'm pretty sure if God was doing miracles and stuff, there'd be a way better reason than just avoiding hell =D )

Offline Hatter23

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2012, 02:37:44 PM »

Since there's probable cause for satan to try to make you think the 2nd is true, the first is probably true.
You can't really prove it though.


How is it more probable than Yahweh as evil deity trying to create a  propaganda document called 'Bible'?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2012, 03:06:26 PM »
Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

3. yhwh is a petulant and moody being and satan is simply one of his minions.[1] 
4. god is an insane but powerful being that has allowed bad things to happen when he could have arranged otherwise.
5. ...

There are a lot of possibilities because the bible does not present a consistent message or portrait of yhwh or god.

And the logic you apply regarding 1 vs 2, is also reversible.  If 2 is true, then god has every reason to make you think 1 is true.  So, you are no nearer an answer.
 1. Satan as most people think of him is not found in the bible.  He is a fiction invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries to get people to convert to and stay with xianity.  Satan is the boogieman who is found in every shadow and the only person who can protect you is jesus H...
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Offline jetson

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2012, 11:06:11 AM »
If all of the world's amputees were healed overnight, and there were no ill-effects from those healings, I might consider believing.  People who have lived all of their lives with missing limbs are not likely to be completely happy upon suddenly having a limb, especially if they've never had one to begin with, or if they have completely adjusted their lives to living without a limb.  So, this miracle would need to include a complete therapy and memory adjustment in order to prevent issues like that.


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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2012, 09:21:58 PM »
As long as belief is still required, I have no ability to get behind the concept. All the healed amputees in the world (a wonderful thing, and far more valuable than my frickin' opinion, by the way) would not convince me that there is a god if the dude still appears to be playing hide-and-seek.

Either there is a god or there is not. If there is, he knows what would convince me of his existence. He knows that this belief thing is a bunch of shit to some of us, and if he really cares, all he needs to do is change his criteria and his visibility a bit and whammo, I will know he exists. Note that I used the word "know". That is the only criterion I will accept. Knowing.

If he is going to continue to play the belief game, I will continue to not buy into it.

Gods that cannot allow for the genetic variation in humans that they presumably created are not worth my attention.

That he behaves exactly as a non-existent god may be coincidental. But I think not.
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Offline Nam

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2012, 12:37:43 AM »
I don't know if this has been mentioned (not reading all the comments) but if in that Universe everything you ask Biblegod to do wouldn't it already been done beforehand? And, would they then be called "miracles" if it was just the way things already were?

The whole thing seems flawed, to me.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2012, 12:48:39 AM »
To the OP:  Let's say I'm trying to find out if I can get my credit card limit raised.  I first check to see if I have a credit card in the first place.  If I don't, then I can't get it raised - the answer is definitely "no".  But if I do, then that only means that one barrier is removed from "can get a credit limit raised" being true.  It doesn't make it true.  More steps are needed to find that out.

This applies in the case of miraculous healings, as well.  Their absense means that gods of a couple of particular descriptions cannot exist.  But their presence wouldn't prove the existence of those gods, any more than finding out that I do indeed have a credit card doesn't prove that I can get a credit limit extension.  It just removes one barrier.  There are others.
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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...

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Offline none

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2012, 03:39:13 PM »
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...

Blessings
so god heals mental illness? like delusion?

Offline jetson

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2012, 03:48:23 PM »
Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. Simple as that.

I wish it were that simple.  But you know as well as the rest of us here that this is pure bullshit, and just a very, very lame excuse for your god.  You're going to have to do much better than posting scripture, as that is really not evidence of anything other than words written down by ancient people.

BTW - there is a standard at this forum, so I suggest you read the rules if you haven't already.  You can't post scripture and call it a day, unless you're willing to say that it is all you have?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2012, 04:09:38 PM »
Basically, what the OP boils down to is a drawn out admission that, in THIS universe, such things do not happen, even though the Bible clearly states that any believer should easily be able to accomplish this. In other words, thanks for admitting that there is no God. I really hope that you did not consider this to be a clever, fool proof argument for the existence of God. It's probably among the silliest I have ever heard. "If the Universe did exactly what I wanted to, including amputees being miraculously healed, THEN you would HAVE to believe in God in that universe, therefore you have to believe in God in this universe too!"  Please. Don't waste our time with this tripe. Find a college, take some critical thinking and logic classes, and get back to us.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline none

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2012, 04:13:07 PM »
...
 Find a college, take some critical thinking and logic classes, and get back to us.
I haven't given up on the hope of elementary schools teaching the basics....

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2012, 04:16:53 PM »
I thought I would address this amputee healing thing right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

Why is this a problem?  Why is it so important to believe things without having firm evidence for them?

Also, you do realize, don't you, that the bible has many, many instances where Yahweh appeared directly to various people, meaning they didn't need faith, either.  Thomas even asked for proof, and Jesus gave it to him.  If them, why not us?
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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 04:23:08 PM »
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.
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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 04:37:33 PM »
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Thank you.  :-)

Quote
Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.

OK, but again... why?
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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2012, 04:42:28 PM »
^ Hey! A good question & a nice post! How rare... Props to pianodwarf!

Thank you.  :-)

Quote
Imho, one needs to be able to do both. He needs to be able to both believe when there is no evidence & believe when there is evidence.

OK, but again... why?
LOL. Don't know... :P
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2012, 04:46:34 PM »
Applying that to God / bible stuff...
(provided miracles are working 'n' stuff like that)
You'd basically have the same thing
1. believe that God is good and satan is evil
2. believe that satan is God or God is evil and the whole thing is a setup.

3. yhwh is a petulant and moody being and satan is simply one of his minions.[1] 
4. god is an insane but powerful being that has allowed bad things to happen when he could have arranged otherwise.
5. ...

There are a lot of possibilities because the bible does not present a consistent message or portrait of yhwh or god.

And the logic you apply regarding 1 vs 2, is also reversible.  If 2 is true, then god has every reason to make you think 1 is true.  So, you are no nearer an answer.
 1. Satan as most people think of him is not found in the bible.  He is a fiction invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries to get people to convert to and stay with xianity.  Satan is the boogieman who is found in every shadow and the only person who can protect you is jesus H...
This would explain why Satan tried a rebellion against this evil dictator
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Offline median

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2012, 04:24:14 AM »
I'm going to take a little bit different of an approach here (although I did not read ALL the posts). I'm going to say that I do not buy the hypothetical scenario you have setup.  It isn't detailed enough for me to be able to even begin making a rational judgment about what I might say, do, or believe in order to change my mind about Yahweh. I agree with quite a few other posters here on at least two points though. 1) Just by you performing extraordinary things it seems there would be little or no method for me to be able to determine if this was your Yahweh Elohim doing the miracles. So how could I know your miraculous works were from your particular deity? 2) Even if I somehow could know it was Yahweh doing these "miracles" (and I don't think that would be likely given your description), I would be pissed! This deity would have a lot of explaining to do, and even then I might want to kill this being (for the atrocities/hypocrisies of the OT - 1 Samuel 15, Judges 11, Hosea 13, Psalm 137, Exodus 21/31, Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 21/22, etc).

So in my mind, your performance of miracles (provided that we could even call them that) would not make up for all of the disgusting, vile, and monstrous acts committed, sanctioned, commanded, or endorsed by your Yahweh. For some reason this God decides to sit back and watch, and do nothing for thousands of years of human history, while literally millions of infant children (under age 5) suffer and die (let alone everyone else's suffering)?? Why would this God be worthy of my worship?

Now I suppose it might be more plausible to say that I might be slightly more inclined to believe in a different deity than this Yahweh, but I would not apply any lesser standards of evidence regardless. This deity would need to explain itself just the same. I do not buy into the cosmic dictator argument (because dictators are not "all loving"). So this being would really just have to SHOW UP (in a fashion that I, and others around, can understand) - which would of course eliminate the need for "faith". Otherwise, I would not believe in either IT, or Yahweh.

As far as I'm concerned, most of our own fathers here outrank the biblical Yahweh deity in just about every aspect of decency and "goodness". In that way, they are far more worthy of worship (if there ever was such a worthy thing).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2012, 04:38:47 AM »
I'm going to take a little bit different of an approach here (although I did not read ALL the posts). I'm going to say that I do not buy the hypothetical scenario you have setup.  It isn't detailed enough for me to be able to even begin making a rational judgment about what I might say, do, or believe in order to change my mind about Yahweh. I agree with quite a few other posters here on at least two points though. 1) Just by you performing extraordinary things it seems there would be little or no method for me to be able to determine if this was your Yahweh Elohim doing the miracles. So how could I know your miraculous works were from your particular deity? 2) Even if I somehow could know it was Yahweh doing these "miracles" (and I don't think that would be likely given your description), I would be pissed! This deity would have a lot of explaining to do, and even then I might want to kill this being (for the atrocities/hypocrisies of the OT - 1 Samuel 15, Judges 11, Hosea 13, Psalm 137, Exodus 21/31, Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 21/22, etc).

So in my mind, your performance of miracles (provided that we could even call them that) would not make up for all of the disgusting, vile, and monstrous acts committed, sanctioned, commanded, or endorsed by your Yahweh. For some reason this God decides to sit back and watch, and do nothing for thousands of years of human history, while literally millions of infant children (under age 5) suffer and die (let alone everyone else's suffering)?? Why would this God be worthy of my worship?

Now I suppose it might be more plausible to say that I might be slightly more inclined to believe in a different deity than this Yahweh, but I would not apply any lesser standards of evidence regardless. This deity would need to explain itself just the same. I do not buy into the cosmic dictator argument (because dictators are not "all loving"). So this being would really just have to SHOW UP (in a fashion that I, and others around, can understand) - which would of course eliminate the need for "faith". Otherwise, I would not believe in either IT, or Yahweh.

As far as I'm concerned, most of our own fathers here outrank the biblical Yahweh deity in just about every aspect of decency and "goodness". In that way, they are far more worthy of worship (if there ever was such a worthy thing).
what do you mean "might kill" if you had sensory input of an entity that was responsible for the activity of killing every living human being that has ever died?
do you think that entity is not going to kill you?
we as a species better get our shit together.
lets say that entity becomes human because it can, then what?

Offline median

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2012, 12:18:46 PM »
what do you mean "might kill" if you had sensory input of an entity that was responsible for the activity of killing every living human being that has ever died?
do you think that entity is not going to kill you?
we as a species better get our shit together.
lets say that entity becomes human because it can, then what?

I would WANT to kill such a being, but it doesn't mean I would be able to.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 12:21:44 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Bagheera

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2012, 01:05:01 PM »
If I can't compare hypothetical universe 100047 to this one, I have no basis on which to judge whether or not the things you can do in that universe are demonstrably 'miraculous evidence of (bible)God' or 'things mr logicfaith can do specifically in that universe alone because it's HIS private universe'.  The only way to know is by testing the rules of that universe, and determining that it is internally consistent.

Perhaps universe 10047 has a structure that specifically allows entities named mr logicfaith to do X things. Either way, the inhabitants of Earth 100047  will worship mr logicfaith 100047. (Although you say mr logicfaith 100047 is doing these miracles in God's name, creating worlds in dayus is specifically attributed to God and only God). Whatever is said, given a choice between a faceless, absent deity and one who is actively doing what they'd see as irrefutably  creating worlds in days and bringing their loved ones back from the dead (unless he's just reserving that trick for famous Americans), they'll nod their heads and say praise God but they'll come to mr logicfaith for their needs.

So basically what you're saying is, "in universe 100047, God exists. Do you believe?" And the honest answer is, Bagheera 100047, with sufficient direct empirical evidence, would believe that god exists. That a creature with the power to duplicate miracles by our standards exists, but not necessarily with the power to create the universe, or that the afterlife is real, nor that he should be worshipped.

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
I think my initial post on the first page states something plainly there concerning the hypothetical: if it's already known to happen, how could 1. It be called a "miracle" since it seemingly is already a part of one's life and evident common knowledge. And 2. This conversation wouldn't be taking place because "atheists" wouldn't exist in the hypothetical (though adversaries may[1]) and then the hypothetical, in of itself becomes moot.

That world doesn't exist. We don't live in a What If world.

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 1. little satans
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 01:59:35 PM »
mr logicfaith,

Are you trying to argue that it wouldn't matter whether or not God started healing amputees (i.e. - b/c we still wouldn't believe anyways)? I don't think that's entirely true b/c it would be very intriguing, eye catching, and something of great interest to those of us that currently reject Yahweh as a fake god - just as we reject all the rest of the man-made gods throughout history. However, at the risk of speaking out of turn here, I'm going to say that I don't think the question of WWGHA Forum is a non-rhetorical one. In other words, as it seems to me, the question is one that ought to demonstrate (to you believers) that your supposed/assumed deity Yahweh is not really what you think he/she/it is. That is to say, this deity (according to the alleged words of Jesus) WILL supposedly do anything for his followers if you ask in his name (John 14). Yet, the fact that these words DO NOT at all ring true in our practical lives (i.e. - the 'gospels' and book of ACTS...here and now) shows, quite clearly, that this deity is either 1) not real, or 2) is a liar and simply doesn't care about his creation (take the sheer number of infant moralities for example). Neither of these two possibilities warrants any of us to worship said idea-thing, does it? The better approach, and the one which an overwhelming majority of us practice daily to get through this life, is to withhold judgment until further evidence comes in.

The question I have for you is this. Why do you believe in this 'Yahweh' god when you don't have any consistent (specific/non-vague) demonstrable evidence for it's existence?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 02:02:33 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline dloubet

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 02:48:36 AM »
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

This suggests that the god character does not want people to come to it through knowledge, but prefers faith. If that's the case, why are you trying to convince us of the god's existence through what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument? Why are you trying to lead us inescapably to the knowledge that a god exists? Why are you trying to make us precisely the kind of believer you claim the god does NOT want? Why are you working at cross-purposes to your god?

Denis Loubet

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2012, 09:05:13 AM »
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.

This suggests that the god character does not want people to come to it through knowledge, but prefers faith. If that's the case, why are you trying to convince us of the god's existence through what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument? Why are you trying to lead us inescapably to the knowledge that a god exists? Why are you trying to make us precisely the kind of believer you claim the god does NOT want? Why are you working at cross-purposes to your god?
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Re: If amputees start getting "miraculously" healed, would you believe?
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2012, 09:45:40 AM »
Only partial blind faith exists.

That's like the "profound absence of the many millions of transitional fossils"

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