Xstian Logic

[carstensenscott]

Xstians like to say that pain, sorrow, disease, misfortune...etc, are all in the lords plan.
To this I beg the following comparison.

Xstian- God let you get disease, ailment, sickness because he wants to use it to get closer to him by believing he will heal you. If the doctors give you medicine it is because the lord guided them to the proper Rx.

Me- If I gave my child which I love so dearly a chocolate cookie filled with a poison which I had the antidote for, and made him first eat the cookie without the knowledge of the poison. Then let him suffer through the first stages of the poisons run. Finally when he was on his death bed I gave him the option of having the antidote which I had been keeping from him. But before he does, he must agree that I am always right, always have his best interest in mind, love him dearly, would never put his life in harms way, would never put him through tests of his loyalty to me, and that no matter what I always new which route he would take because I am omnipotent.

What the deuce is this. I would be cast away into prison with no chance of freedom. Yet Xstians of all denominations believe that these sicknesses and bad things of sort are all part of his plan.

WHAT KIND OF LOVING PARENT WOULD DO THAT TO THEIR CHILDREN IF THEY TRULY LOVE THEM?

[none]

you need to work on your argument a little...
GENESIS 3:3

3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

[carstensenscott]

It was a disclaimer? IF YOU EAT OF THIS FRUIT YOU AND ALL OTHERS AFTER YOU WILL BE PLAGUED WITH DISEASE WHICH I CREATED JUST IN CASE...EVEN THOUGH I AM ALL KNOWING...AND KNOW YOU WILL EAT THE FRUIT.

What is to expound upon. The story of the all knowing god, and the agape love is not logical. You don't love something and try to kill it by creating a path in which you already know they will go down.

[none]

it wasn't a disclaimer, it is a story....
and I don't know a logical argument to support the idea of the christian god's love without including murder....

[Lectus]

Want another one?

God knew Lucifer would be a rebel angel, and yet He created him.

If He's all powerful then He knew Lucifer would cause problems to humans.

How can He love us and at the same time allow it?

He's either evil or both Him and Lucifer don't exist.

[darkdragon46]

Well, let's look at it another way.

Child asks to do (fill in dangerous activity here).  Parent says it is dangerous and says no.  Of course, like a good, obedient child, the child does not do...yeah, right, they do it anyway.  Child gets hurt.  Parent is there to help no matter what.  That is love, yes?

The other scenario is more difficult to comprehend.  Some pain is not a direct result or action or inaction, such as natural disasters or disease.  At those points in time, we like to blame someone.  (Even in the first example, we automatically blame the child for doing something stupid...most of the time anyway.)  So who is there to blame when we can't find a culprit on earth.  God, of course.  So, yeah, you can do that.  Anyone trying to convince you otherwise believes they have a logical solution to this problem, which they don't because it isn't logic (as you have implied in the title of your thread).  What someone can say, however, is that blaming someone for not doing something is not about them at all.  That's all on you.  It's natural and very human.  We can rise above it, or we can wallow in it.

[Betelnut]

Sounds like god has Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

[Lectus]

Christians, please explain me this:

You say Jesus taught you to love everyone.

But when someone is an atheist you keep talking non-stop even if the person tells you to stop and is getting stressed. You even curse this person saying his life will be forever in pain, destruction if he doesn't accept Jesus.

How can this be love? Respect is easier than love. How can you claim you love?

[darkdragon46]

Christians, please explain me this:

You say Jesus taught you to love everyone.

But when someone is an atheist you keep talking non-stop even if the person tells you to stop and is getting stressed. You even curse this person saying his life will be forever in pain, destruction if he doesn't accept Jesus.

People are more comfortable with like minded people around them.  When they find someone with a different view, especially on something they beleive they have a very firm, unshakable grasp on, they get nervous.  When someone take a directly contrary opinion, and is completely comfortable with that opinion, people get very, very unsettled and react in the way you describe.  Generally, if they react that way, your opinion is stronger (i.e. more convincing, more thought out, more heartfelt) than theirs.  Their weaker opinion folds, and they take on your opinion by default.  They don't like it so they try to get you to change your mind so they don't have to think about changing their's.  Of course, there's always the people who are kind and polite, but don't really listen to you until you take their view.  But their objective is the same.

[oogabooga]

The Adam and Eve thing baffles me as well. Let's see:
- God creates first two humans and doesn't give them the ability to distinguish between right and wrong (good and evil).
- God stuffs a supposedly dangerous tree in the middle of their living space.
- God lies to them that they'll die if they eat the fruit from said tree.

So let's consider that as a parenting strategy. You have something dangerous, let's say it's a loaded gun, that could hurt your child. You put that gun in the middle of the room and tell a child (too young and, as in case of Adam and Eve, incapable of making sound decisions because he doesn't even know what would or could happen if he tries to use it) that he mustn't use the gun because it's dangerous and it might kill him (again, completely disregarding the fact that a child doesn't know what death is and what it means - neither did Adam and Eve, since we're told that nothing in Eden ever died). Then you leave the room.

If a parent did anything like that, the social services would be all over him in a second. If anything happened to the child, the parent would be to blame. That's a no brainer. Why isn't it a no brainer for a supposedly omniscient god?

Anyway, god's omniscience flies out the window when we consider the fact that he didn't know that his supposedly perfect creations, whom he did not endow with life experience and the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, would actually do something stupid. As a good parent he should have taken certain precautions. As a psychological abuser, however, he would, indeed, create a situation in which he would be in a position to punish Adam and Eve.

God also prohibited lying. It's in the freaking ten commandments. Yet he had no qualms with lying, did he?

The tree of knowledge made Adam and Eve adults. It gave them the ability they should have had before they reached for that apple. There's no other way that situation could have been prevented. So it was god who caused the fall from Eden. Therefore god wants to punish his creation. Ergo, god's a psychopathic bully, creating situations in which we can all fuck up so he can pounce on us. That's probably because he loves us so much. So, so very much. That's ultimate love for ya.

Anyway, god has proven to be an unfit parent and we should all be permanently removed from his custody. That's the only responsible thing to do.

[stuffin]

Sounds like god has Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

That is exactly what I thought. Been a Nurse for 30 years, have seen a few medical professionals with this issue. They will make an emergency out of routine circumstances. Why didn't god just put a spell around the tree to protect the children (that's what a concerned parent would do)? No, he had to create an emergency; otherwise the soap opera called religion wouldn't exist.

[Gohavesomefun]

(Apologies if you're not allowed to post video as a response)

[Strawman]

My favourite part of Christian logic is when they argue against atheism by presenting it as a religion. 

[Lectus]

The best showcase of general religion logic is this:

Christian: If you don't accept Jesus you're going to hell.
Muslim: That's heresy! You have to worship Allah to go to heaven!
Jew: You're both going to hell.

How do they prove this? Through FAITH. So, just because they think it's right then it's right. LOL

If I were God I'd send them all to hell for being so arrogant.

[jetson]

The best showcase of general religion logic is this:

Christian: If you don't accept Jesus you're going to hell.
Muslim: That's heresy! You have to worship Allah to go to heaven!
Jew: You're both going to hell.

How do they prove this? Through FAITH. So, just because they think it's right then it's right. LOL

If I were God I'd send them all to hell for being so arrogant.

Interesting point.  I would add that it is entirely possible (though no Christian would accept this) that atheists are the only ones making it to heaven, for the simple act of not believing all of the human-written horse-shit in all of the "sacred" shit piles we call Holy books.

[Samothec]

Xstians like to say that pain, sorrow, disease, misfortune...etc, are all in the lords plan.
...
WHAT KIND OF LOVING PARENT WOULD DO THAT TO THEIR CHILDREN IF THEY TRULY LOVE THEM?

Quite a while ago I came to the end of my search for god and found that he is an abusive father who shows his love by hurting us - or he doesn't exist. Malevolent or fictional. Rejoice in your broken leg or bronchitis, god's gift to you - or attribute them to natural forces. I'd be happier rejoicing in my misery but also delusional. So, I take great comfort that no one is trying to harm me because no one is there.

[carstensenscott]

Can you just imagine all of the Xstians reading this.

THEM- oh my, these people are really going to hell if thats how they think about us. Of course, so are the Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, Rastas, Hindus...etc.....etc.....etc.....! I just don't get why they don't understand gods love. I mean look at my life. Its perfect. God must love me. He has guided my every move. (going down the rabbit hole)...he has blessed me with an awesome spouse who doesn't cheat. He has blessed me with ten fabulous children who are all healthy and brilliant. We have three Cadillac's in a five car garage with a boat, skidoos, and four wheelers. Sinners dont live like this. All of my friends at church have the same things. We are going to heaven.

GOD- Damn.....they got me figured out.  Or am I just a figment of their imagination. Or...who am I ...poof...
AT THAT VERY MOMENT A BLACK HOLE SUCKED THE LAST PARTICLE OF DUST FROM THE FIRST PERSON WHO EVER SPOUTED THE WORD GOD..IN WHATEVER LANGUAGE IT WAS AT THAT GIVEN TIME.

Hey..a guy can dream right.

[none]

Can you just imagine all of the Xstians reading this.

THEM- oh my, these people are really going to hell if thats how they think about us. Of course, so are the Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, Rastas, Hindus...etc.....etc.....etc.....! I just don't get why they don't understand gods love. I mean look at my life. Its perfect. God must love me. He has guided my every move. (going down the rabbit hole)...he has blessed me with an awesome spouse who doesn't cheat. He has blessed me with ten fabulous children who are all healthy and brilliant. We have three Cadillac's in a five car garage with a boat, skidoos, and four wheelers. Sinners dont live like this. All of my friends at church have the same things. We are going to heaven.

GOD- Damn.....they got me figured out.  Or am I just a figment of their imagination. Or...who am I ...poof...
AT THAT VERY MOMENT A BLACK HOLE SUCKED THE LAST PARTICLE OF DUST FROM THE FIRST PERSON WHO EVER SPOUTED THE WORD GOD..IN WHATEVER LANGUAGE IT WAS AT THAT GIVEN TIME.

Hey..a guy can dream right.

it is the nature of the god belief that is dangerous.
some people believe that god is imaginary and some people believe god is not imaginary.
It is the belief that god is not imaginary that leads to problems.

[Aspie]

The Adam and Eve thing baffles me as well. Let's see:
- God creates first two humans and doesn't give them the ability to distinguish between right and wrong (good and evil).
- God stuffs a supposedly dangerous tree in the middle of their living space.
- God lies to them that they'll die if they eat the fruit from said tree.

So let's consider that as a parenting strategy. You have something dangerous, let's say it's a loaded gun, that could hurt your child. You put that gun in the middle of the room and tell a child (too young and, as in case of Adam and Eve, incapable of making sound decisions because he doesn't even know what would or could happen if he tries to use it) that he mustn't use the gun because it's dangerous and it might kill him (again, completely disregarding the fact that a child doesn't know what death is and what it means - neither did Adam and Eve, since we're told that nothing in Eden ever died). Then you leave the room.

If a parent did anything like that, the social services would be all over him in a second. If anything happened to the child, the parent would be to blame. That's a no brainer. Why isn't it a no brainer for a supposedly omniscient god?

Anyway, god's omniscience flies out the window when we consider the fact that he didn't know that his supposedly perfect creations, whom he did not endow with life experience and the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, would actually do something stupid. As a good parent he should have taken certain precautions. As a psychological abuser, however, he would, indeed, create a situation in which he would be in a position to punish Adam and Eve.

God also prohibited lying. It's in the freaking ten commandments. Yet he had no qualms with lying, did he?

The tree of knowledge made Adam and Eve adults. It gave them the ability they should have had before they reached for that apple. There's no other way that situation could have been prevented. So it was god who caused the fall from Eden. Therefore god wants to punish his creation. Ergo, god's a psychopathic bully, creating situations in which we can all fuck up so he can pounce on us. That's probably because he loves us so much. So, so very much. That's ultimate love for ya.

Anyway, god has proven to be an unfit parent and we should all be permanently removed from his custody. That's the only responsible thing to do.

You left out the part about God's talking pet snake! It isn't even until it opens its yapper that Adam and Eve take a bite, and God knows this. No matter how you look at it the whole thing was just a sting operation engineered by God to take advantage of their naivete in order to punish them for being just as he made them. And in the end it turns out that the snake, which is often considered to be the devil, was actually the one who told the truth!

[carstensenscott]

I wish ...I wish.... I wish....all people had a pop off like valve that when the education/brain function reached a certain level of smarts, the whole god/religion thing just popped. They all of a sudden see the light.

2nd grade: "god loves me. Jesus died for me. can I have a cookie."
4th grade: "hmm..why would all of these people be dying and have diseases if god created everything to be in his image. Thats strange."
9th grade: After first day of high school comes home to parents, "mom, why have you been lying to me all of these years about god, creation, the blood of jesus, the bible. What is wrong with you. Are you some sort of idiot. Did you not go to school. The planet has been around for way longer than 6000 years. Creation is impossible. God is impossible. WHY HAVE YOU BEEN LYING TO ME?!!!!?!!?!!?!!?!"

That would be great.

[none]

^^hehe..
is this typical?
3rd grade science project: without the sun the earth is cold.
middle school:   rumor is people are sinners and the earth was created
high school:  potential for being college football material, biology had some pretty girls in it but they laughed because of "the new kid"
freshman year of college:  macro organic molecules explained in the first week of biology class, there are good looking college girls and and boys they "like" each other
career:  perform tasks for employer, outraged christians fight amongst themselves and ostracize "the atheist"

[oogabooga]

You left out the part about God's talking pet snake! It isn't even until it opens its yapper that Adam and Eve take a bite, and God knows this. No matter how you look at it the whole thing was just a sting operation engineered by God to take advantage of their naivete in order to punish them for being just as he made them. And in the end it turns out that the snake, which is often considered to be the devil, was actually the one who told the truth!

Of course, the snake, being god's creation after all, was doing exactly what god made it do. That chain of events would probably even stand up in court. Causing murder or suffering is just as big a crime as committing it.

Just another nail in god's coffin there. And no amount of trying to wriggle out of that one with the free will schtick will do them any good. Adam and Eve, like the rest of humanity, were only free to do as they were told. The second they exercised their god given right and chose as they wished, they were severely punished. And not just them, mind you. God didn't just punish those who actually did the deed. No, he punished every single human, who didn't even exist yet, because two people ate a fucking apple. And they ate the fucking apple because they practically didn't have a choice. Go god!

But let's go on a bit. God gave us free will, right? And yet, later on, he drowned the entire world for using what was given to them by god. So we, as his children, were given candy and got beaten by a hose later on for eating it. The entire world was also full of unborn babies who did absolutely nothing wrong. I've heard an argument that god saw that they would be wicked so he drowned them in the flood with the rest of humanity (save for one single family). If that's so, god should have also foreseen Adam and Eve's transgression, right? They weren't even wicked, they just ate some fruit. An apple a day and so on.

[darkdragon46]

Sounds like god has Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy.

That is exactly what I thought. Been a Nurse for 30 years, have seen a few medical professionals with this issue. They will make an emergency out of routine circumstances. Why didn't god just put a spell around the tree to protect the children (that's what a concerned parent would do)? No, he had to create an emergency; otherwise the soap opera called religion wouldn't exist.

Or life as we know it wouldn't exist...

[darkdragon46]

The Adam and Eve thing baffles me as well. Let's see:
- God creates first two humans and doesn't give them the ability to distinguish between right and wrong (good and evil).
- God stuffs a supposedly dangerous tree in the middle of their living space.
- God lies to them that they'll die if they eat the fruit from said tree.

So let's consider that as a parenting strategy. You have something dangerous, let's say it's a loaded gun, that could hurt your child. You put that gun in the middle of the room and tell a child (too young and, as in case of Adam and Eve, incapable of making sound decisions because he doesn't even know what would or could happen if he tries to use it) that he mustn't use the gun because it's dangerous and it might kill him (again, completely disregarding the fact that a child doesn't know what death is and what it means - neither did Adam and Eve, since we're told that nothing in Eden ever died). Then you leave the room.

And there's the key point.  You would rather us never know what happens if we do something wrong?  That some things can hurt us?  How would you do that?  What you are proposing is that God put adam and eve in a room with all the food they need and not have anything there that can hurt them, basically putting them in a room for their entire lives to live by a set of rules and experience nothing.  I thought our society frowned on that.  I know every sci-fi show I've ever seen hates when people do that.  They always try to liberate the people who are 'imprisoned' and what always happens?  The people imprisoned get hurt, and everyone is sad...but then, guess what?  Things get better because the captives realize why they were held captive and they don't hate their captors for it.

God just skipped the middle man and gave Adam and Eve a choice.  Say what you will about Adam and Eve not knowing what would happen (and that was the point), they still had a choice.  But God was never punishing them for eating the apple from the tree (or punishing them at all in my opinion).  People seem to forget that Adam and Eve hid from God.  That is the mistake they made.  You can do wrong, but you really only hurt yourself when you try to hide it.  If you face up to it, you still have to deal with the consequences, but you don't have the shame of hiding or lying to deal with as well.

If a parent did anything like that, the social services would be all over him in a second. If anything happened to the child, the parent would be to blame. That's a no brainer. Why isn't it a no brainer for a supposedly omniscient god?

Anyway, god's omniscience flies out the window when we consider the fact that he didn't know that his supposedly perfect creations, whom he did not endow with life experience and the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, would actually do something stupid. As a good parent he should have taken certain precautions. As a psychological abuser, however, he would, indeed, create a situation in which he would be in a position to punish Adam and Eve.

God also prohibited lying. It's in the freaking ten commandments. Yet he had no qualms with lying, did he?

The tree of knowledge made Adam and Eve adults. It gave them the ability they should have had before they reached for that apple. There's no other way that situation could have been prevented. So it was god who caused the fall from Eden. Therefore god wants to punish his creation. Ergo, god's a psychopathic bully, creating situations in which we can all fuck up so he can pounce on us. That's probably because he loves us so much. So, so very much. That's ultimate love for ya.

Anyway, god has proven to be an unfit parent and we should all be permanently removed from his custody. That's the only responsible thing to do.

You assume this ability can be given.  Life would seem to say otherwise. 

[Strawman]

I would add that it is entirely possible (though no Christian would accept this) that atheists are the only ones making it to heaven, for the simple act of not believing all of the human-written horse-shit in all of the "sacred" shit piles we call Holy books.

Yes, I think the same. If god can't be proved or disproved then surely our trial is to be strong enough to defy this potentially omnipotent dictator, not to mindlessly serve it. The test is to trust ourselves and our science and reject fear. Think about it, if god existed and wanted people to believe and worship out of pure faith then why would any religious texts exist at all? Why would they contain threats for those who don't blindly believe if faith is such a virtue?

I see four possibilities:
1. God wrote all religious texts and filled them with bullshit and threats to test our fortitude. (All known religions are invalid.)
2. God did not write any religious texts and wants us to worship him out of pure faith. (All known religions are invalid.)
3. God doesn't care about us. (All known religions are invalid.)
4. God doesn't exist. (All known religions are invalid.)

I don't get it. Whether you are religious or not EVERYONE believes that man creates false religions, it's something that our species is prone to do, so what the fuck makes you think any of them are valid? "Oh but the bible helped me get through some hard times..." Great! So someone else wrote something that made you think and your only explanation is they must be God!? You moron!

[Lectus]

Common christian rationalization:

"Hard times in life are just probations God sent me to test my faith."

[screwtape]

You would rather us never know what happens if we do something wrong?  That some things can hurt us?  How would you do that?  What you are proposing is that God put adam and eve in a room with all the food they need and not have anything there that can hurt them, basically putting them in a room for their entire lives to live by a set of rules and experience nothing.

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding some things.  Eden is always depicted as a perfect, idyllic paradise.  xians often describe adam as "perfect" and bemoan the idea that Eve caused them to be bounced.  And the fact that bad things can happen when you have an allegedly omnimax god in charge means an omnimax god is not, in fact, in charge. 

And yes, I would prefer people and the universe were built so that bad consequences were either non-existent or inconsequential.  An omnimax god should have no problem making that happen.

I thought our society frowned on that.

So?  Our society frowns on promescuity, prostitution, recreational drugs, and lots of other things that are not inherently bad.  Your appeal to popularity is irrelvant.

I know every sci-fi show I've ever seen...

Remember, the "fi" in "scifi" stands for "fiction".

God just skipped the middle man and gave Adam and Eve a choice.  Say what you will about Adam and Eve not knowing what would happen...

But without the ability to know morality, it was a random choice, not an informed choice.  To say their ignorance was insignificant is a tragic misunderstanding of the problem.

People seem to forget that Adam and Eve hid from God.  That is the mistake they made. 

Scripturally speaking, you are completely wrong. 

You assume this ability can be given.  Life would seem to say otherwise.

I have no idea what perspective you are arguing.  It does not appear to be consistent.

[oogabooga]

And there's the key point.  You would rather us never know what happens if we do something wrong?  That some things can hurt us?  How would you do that?  What you are proposing is that God put adam and eve in a room with all the food they need and not have anything there that can hurt them, basically putting them in a room for their entire lives to live by a set of rules and experience nothing.  I thought our society frowned on that.  I know every sci-fi show I've ever seen hates when people do that.  They always try to liberate the people who are 'imprisoned' and what always happens?  The people imprisoned get hurt, and everyone is sad...but then, guess what?  Things get better because the captives realize why they were held captive and they don't hate their captors for it.

This doesn't make any sense. If god took necessary precautions to prevent Adam and Eve from doing something that was supposedly horribly wrong, this world wouldn't exist. They'd be in Eden for all eternity and live forever.

But we are talking about god's parenting skills. Would you do something like that to your child? Would you put something harmful in front of him, tell him a bogus story about not touching it (and explaining it with consequences he can't possibly understand), send in someone to coerce the child into fiddling with the forbidden thing and then punish the child for it? Does that sound a) something a physically stable (as in non-psychopathic) deity would do and b) at all logical?

God just skipped the middle man and gave Adam and Eve a choice.  Say what you will about Adam and Eve not knowing what would happen (and that was the point), they still had a choice.  But God was never punishing them for eating the apple from the tree (or punishing them at all in my opinion).  People seem to forget that Adam and Eve hid from God.  That is the mistake they made.  You can do wrong, but you really only hurt yourself when you try to hide it.  If you face up to it, you still have to deal with the consequences, but you don't have the shame of hiding or lying to deal with as well.

Adam and Eve weren't given a choice. They were given an order backed up by a lie.

Second: Adam and Eve weren't hiding because they did something wrong, but because they were ashamed of their nakedness. Before they didn't know that was supposedly wrong - because they weren't given the ability to do so. Which answers your next statement:

You assume this ability can be given.  Life would seem to say otherwise.

I don't assume anything. The Bible does. The apple tree was the tree of knowledge about good and evil. By eating the apple Adam and Eve received said ability. We are debating contents of that particular holy book, not developmental psychology.

[darkdragon46]

This doesn't make any sense. If god took necessary precautions to prevent Adam and Eve from doing something that was supposedly horribly wrong, this world wouldn't exist. They'd be in Eden for all eternity and live forever.

But we are talking about god's parenting skills. Would you do something like that to your child? Would you put something harmful in front of him, tell him a bogus story about not touching it (and explaining it with consequences he can't possibly understand), send in someone to coerce the child into fiddling with the forbidden thing and then punish the child for it? Does that sound a) something a physically stable (as in non-psychopathic) deity would do and b) at all logical?

If he couldn't understand the consequence, would it matter if I told him what it was?  And as I said, I am not of the opinion that God punished for eating the apple.  There was a consequence to that, but it wasn't a punishment. 

Adam and Eve weren't given a choice. They were given an order backed up by a lie.

Second: Adam and Eve weren't hiding because they did something wrong, but because they were ashamed of their nakedness. Before they didn't know that was supposedly wrong - because they weren't given the ability to do so. Which answers your next statement:

Death is an end.  Eating the apple caused the end of Adam and Eve's stay in Eden.  Doesn't sound like a lie to me.

I don't assume anything. The Bible does. The apple tree was the tree of knowledge about good and evil. By eating the apple Adam and Eve received said ability. We are debating contents of that particular holy book, not developmental psychology.

You assume, just as nearly everyone else, that it is physical nakedness that ashamed them.  They knew God knew what they had done.  They knew they had disobeyed him.  Which is more shameful, knowing that you've been found out, or being found naked?  Think about that seriously.  If your answer is being physically naked, then...I don't know what to tell you.