Author Topic: (no subject) #2686  (Read 1299 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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(no subject) #2686
« on: September 09, 2012, 05:13:50 PM »
Regarding 'understanding Noah's flood' you continually use the argument that the Bible is the supreme word of god, however may I ask where it says that the bible was written by god? 
Also when you comment about the use of the word 'world' in Hebrew, people use the word world to describe there immediate 'world' this is the area surrounding them, as modern transport has progressed we in  the western world have access to more of the world so our 'worlds' expand. Flood victims often say that their 'world' has been destroyed, and this would apply more so in 4000BC as the 'world' was a much smaller place.

Also you appear not to have mentioned the mass extinction we know happened at this time, the leading theory it was caused by a series of huge tsunami's resulting from a meteor impact. 
Oh and
'Norm: What, you are saying that God erected a gigantic wall around the Middle East -- he created the world's biggest above-ground swimming pool three miles deep?'
 ... floods do not happen in blocks, especially big ones, they tend to 'happen in'  torrents or waves ie of flowing water .

I am not a religious man, and I myself take pride in ridiculing unquestionable belief in a book riddled with contradictions and clear errors however if you are going to ridicule it please add some more intelligence to it and recognize the clear fact that some events were likely to have happened and the bible has 'storeys' to explian these events to immortalise them in time.
If these events never happened why would the people at the time preserve the book? If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it- can you imagine if someone wrote a history of the of the 19th century and continually claimed the industrial revolution never happened we wouldn't take it would we? This book certainly would be kept for thousands of years and rewritten and revered would it?

Thanks ,
[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Aaron123

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 06:29:53 PM »
Regarding 'understanding Noah's flood' you continually use the argument that the Bible is the supreme word of god, however may I ask where it says that the bible was written by god? 

I don't think the bible ever stated "this work was written by god", but 2 Timothy 3:16 does claim "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness".  So the bible is god-approved, at least.

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Also when you comment about the use of the word 'world' in Hebrew, people use the word world to describe there immediate 'world' this is the area surrounding them, as modern transport has progressed we in  the western world have access to more of the world so our 'worlds' expand. Flood victims often say that their 'world' has been destroyed, and this would apply more so in 4000BC as the 'world' was a much smaller place.


While I agree with what you're trying to say, that's not how many christians interpret the passage, especially the literalists.


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Also you appear not to have mentioned the mass extinction we know happened at this time, the leading theory it was caused by a series of huge tsunami's resulting from a meteor impact. 


Huh?  Mass extinction in 4,000 BC?  I'm not following...


 
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If these events never happened why would the people at the time preserve the book? If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it- can you imagine if someone wrote a history of the of the 19th century and continually claimed the industrial revolution never happened we wouldn't take it would we? This book certainly would be kept for thousands of years and rewritten and revered would it?


That question could apply towards any religion or tall tale.  We still have stories of the greek gods, even though they're 'nonsense' and 'never happened'.  We have Scientology, even though it's 'nonsense'.  We also have stories of Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, etc etc.  Plus, this assume that people at the time were interested in discrediting religion.  They weren't.  Most of the time, they left the other group alone.  Or if they did try to change someone's mind, it would've been a "conversion by force" sort of deal.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 06:46:12 PM »
Flood victims often say that their 'world' has been destroyed, and this would apply more so in 4000BC as the 'world' was a much smaller place.

Also you appear not to have mentioned the mass extinction we know happened at this time, the leading theory it was caused by a series of huge tsunami's resulting from a meteor impact.

I think you will find that the most recent mass extinction caused by an asteroid impact took place around 65 million years ago, which means you are out here by four orders of magnitude.

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If these events never happened why would the people at the time preserve the book?

Because it tells people what they want to hear. It quells their fears and anxieties. It tells people who fear death that they will never really die. It provides people who fear uncertainty and the unknown with absolute answers to every question. It provides meaning and purpose to counter the disquieting thought that one’s life has little significance. It provides people who are suffering in the aftermath of some random natural disaster or a senseless death with comfort in the belief that there is some grand, unknowable plan of which they are part. Most people are insecure enough to want to believe what their religion tells them and gullible enough to believe it.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 02:17:48 AM »
If these events never happened why would the people at the time preserve the book? If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it- can you imagine if someone wrote a history of the of the 19th century and continually claimed the industrial revolution never happened we wouldn't take it would we? This book certainly would be kept for thousands of years and rewritten and revered would it?

I guess Pecos Bill really did lasso a Tornado then, because it's in a book! I guess Paul Bunyan was really as tall as a mountain and had a blue ox that was incredibly large as well! The little engine that could? Must have really happened to! "No one would have written it down if it were 'nonsense.'" "Would have been ridiculed the book and got rid of it." Right?

Have you ever heard of fiction? There's a whole section of it at a public library. It's "make-believe." It's "nonsense." None of it's real. People read it for entertainment. People read it for inspiration or "moral lessons." 

Here we have a book that's lasted for thousands of years that says, "You don't have to take responsibility for your actions. If you do something wrong, or something goes wrong with your body, it was Demons! It stuff goes good, it's because you're following 'God's Plan[1]' for your life, and if your world falls apart? It's because God's just "testing you." After all, God would never allow anything happen to you that you cannot handle, if you have faith in him."

Also, I believe the Iiliad & Oddessey has been around just as long, if not longer. The Epic of Gilgamesh though, is what part of the buybull was based on. Atlantis, Vampires, Werewolves, Fairies, Pot of Gold at the end of the Rainbow... etc. I could go on for years. People believe in all kinds of stuff that isn't real. Because so many cultures believe in gods, like they believe in vampires, I guess that proves vampires are real too? Or that there's "some truth to it?" The "truth" is that humans have fears. Fear of the unknown. Fear of being someone's/something's lunch. Universal fears, and the way we evolved, similar paths, so we make up similar stories to qwell those fears. No matter how powerful the vampire, an arrow/stake to the heart or sunlight is all it takes, and the vampire always gets it in the end.
 1. too bad he doesn't tell you what this is, though....  &)

Offline Fiji

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 02:35:54 AM »
Noah's cruise was written at a time when the Ancient Hebrew were still (mostly) polytheistic, it gets the message across that "my god has a bigger dick than yours"

non Hebrew: My god killed a bunch of people!
Hebrew: yeah? well my god ... erm ... erm ... drowned the whole world!
non Hebrew: what? that's goatshit!
Hebrew: do you REALLY want to piss of MY god ... the worlddrowner?
non Hebrew: well , erm ... I ... I'll get back to you on that one.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 06:29:25 AM »
Noah's cruise was written at a time when the Ancient Hebrew were still (mostly) polytheistic, it gets the message across that "my god has a bigger dick than yours"

non Hebrew: My god killed a bunch of people!
Hebrew: yeah? well my god ... erm ... erm ... drowned the whole world!
non Hebrew: what? that's goatshit!
Hebrew: do you REALLY want to piss of MY god ... the worlddrowner?
non Hebrew: well , erm ... I ... I'll get back to you on that one.

Nebuchadnezzar:  "I've thought about it, and yes, I think I will'

Offline Quesi

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 06:52:51 AM »
You are right, of course.  These folks had no idea that they lived on a huge globe.  "The world" was most likely defined as what could be seen from horizon to horizon.

I do not doubt that there was a great flood.  There have certainly been many great floods on planet earth in my lifetime, and to the people who survived, their world was destroyed.

In the absence of satellites photos showing the boundaries of the flood, I am certain that people affected by huge floods believed the whole world was impacted. 

And the survivors told the stories.  Oral tradition takes on a life of its own.  I tell my 5 year old stories of events in my life, and I am always surprised how she embellishes them, adding in heroic details that were never in my original telling. 

So these folks told stories around the fires in the evening, generation after generation, of some guy who saved his family and some farm animals from a great flood.  And the children hear the story year after year, and when they grow up to tell the story themselves, some details get left out, and other, fantastical details get added in, and the next generation embellishes more, and the next generation more, and by the time that somebody literate gets around to writing the story down, it has become bigger than life. 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 12:52:09 PM »
If there was a meteor impact that caused "the great flood", it was certainly a local event, not a global one.  The kind of thing that would have been a major dislocation for any culture anywhere near it, but not enough to seriously threaten life on Earth.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »
One of my co-workers once detailed how he thought the progression went. His version details the children getting smarter and asking questions, and in order to answer them, the story becomes larger than life.

There was a rock that crashed somewhere between Australia and Madagaskar that caused a Tsunami, but it wasn't the only thing. When the polar caps melted causing the ocean levels to raise, what we now know as the Black Sea and Persian Gulf flooded. The melting of the caps and the asteroid were thounds of years apart though. But with both events in the past, and thier inability to note the passing of time beyond a generation, it just got all rolled up into one incident.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 02:36:55 PM »
All the explanations given by members here make more sense than a real global flood and a guy who saves a sample of all the living things on earth by putting them into one homemade boat.

Why did people preserve crazy stories itf they were not true? It's called a fable. Did Aesop's tales really happen? Did a tortoise and a hare really have a race?[1]

Maybe nobody back then thought that people would ever really be stupid enough to believe their fables, as they embellished the tales over the generations. But those ancient people never met the modern people who believe the Bat-boy and alien abduction stories in the Enquirer.
 1. That story is way more likely than Noah's flood, and yet, nobody thinks it is true...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:15:53 PM »
I'm guessing that "the great flood" mentioned in the bible was more likely caused by a large earthquake than a meteor impact. 

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Online Graybeard

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 03:42:43 PM »
Regarding 'understanding Noah's flood' you continually use the argument that the Bible is the supreme word of god, however may I ask where it says that the bible was written by god?
Rather than quote you a dozen verses, The Bible basically says that it is the Word of God as passed on to his prophets and repeated therein. These circular references also state that God’s Word is Eternal and True. Hence the Supreme Word of God.

Quote
Also when you comment about the use of the word 'world' in Hebrew, people use the word world to describe there immediate 'world' this is the area surrounding them, as modern transport has progressed we in  the western world have access to more of the world so our 'worlds' expand. Flood victims often say that their 'world' has been destroyed, and this would apply more so in 4000BC as the 'world' was a much smaller place.
I think no serious atheist would disagree with you – the Old Testament is a prolonged Folk Tale

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Also you appear not to have mentioned the mass extinction we know happened at this time, the leading theory it was caused by a series of huge tsunami's resulting from a meteor impact.
We haven’t mentioned it as it never happened. The mass extinctions are discussed here Extinction eventWiki – all before mankind and certainly before boats.

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I am not a religious man, and I myself take pride in ridiculing unquestionable belief in a book riddled with contradictions and clear errors however if you are going to ridicule it please add some more intelligence to it and recognize the clear fact that some events were likely to have happened and the bible has 'stories' to explain these events to immortalise them in time.
St Augustine wrote similarly – however, he was suggesting to Christians that they should not make wild claims that are obviously untrue, as it devalues “the faith”.

However, you will find sufficiently large numbers of godbotherers who do actually say the flood was “as described.” By pointing the inconsistencies out, we hope to sow the seeds of doubt in their minds. To do this, it is necessary to state what is said in the Bible – as ridiculous as it might be.
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If these events never happened why would the people at the time preserve the book? If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it-
Indeed, it is nonsense but they have not got rid of it.

And here we have it: The Bible should be true: This is the Southern Baptist declaration of faith:
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"The Holy Bible, KJV1611, was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture therein is totally true and trustworthy.”
This is the mind set with which we deal – don’t believe it? Check it.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline shnozzola

Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 04:51:22 PM »
If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it- can you imagine if someone wrote a history of the of the 19th century and continually claimed the industrial revolution never happened we wouldn't take it would we?
In a world without global news a few thousand years ago, imagine the different ways truth could go.

70 years after the Nazi’s, this crap starts:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/21/ahmadinejad-holocaust-den_n_293083.html

A couple years days after 9/11, this crap starts:



Lets hope the truth survives just our own time.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:53:36 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 01:43:31 AM »
If it were 'nonsense' they would have ridiculed the book and got rid of it- can you imagine if someone wrote a history of the of the 19th century and continually claimed the industrial revolution never happened we wouldn't take it would we?
In a world without global news a few thousand years ago, imagine the different ways truth could go.

70 years after the Nazi’s, this crap starts:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/21/ahmadinejad-holocaust-den_n_293083.html

A couple years days after 9/11, this crap starts:



Lets hope the truth survives just our own time.

I look at that video you provided and see absolutely no way that those buildings could have collapsed into their own footprints.



Of course this land is dangerous!
All of the animals
Are capably murderous.

When I was a boy,
My big brother held on to my hand,
And he made me slap my own face.
I looked up to him then, and still do.
He was trying to teach me something.
And now I know what it was!
And now I know what he meant!
Now I know how it is!

One must eat the other
Who runs free before him.
Put them right into his mouth
While fantasizing the beauty of his movement.
A sensation not unlike
Slapping yourself in the face...

Believing the "official" explanation of 9/11
is just like slapping yourself in the face.

la la, LA LA, la la...LAlala
la la, LA LA, la la...LAlala
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:53:03 AM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 04:36:51 AM »
And here we have it: The Bible should be true: This is the Southern Baptist declaration of faith:
Quote
"The Holy Bible, KJV1611, was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture therein is totally true and trustworthy.”
This is the mind set with which we deal – don’t believe it? Check it.

As someone raised as a Southern Baptist, that is exactly what I was taught. They love to throw 2 Tim 3:16 almost as much as John 3:16.

Offline LadyLucy

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Re: (no subject) #2686
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 02:10:15 AM »
Well, people reserve the Bible just like people reserved the Epic of Gilgamesh. Nothing more to it. In my opinion - and it may be a fact - the Epic of Gilgamesh is older than the Bible. Deities and mankind aside, they are simply books that got lucky. However, the Epic of Gilgamesh stayed the same; the Bible kept being edited due to religious purposes that were evolving.