911 conspiracies (yes it's that time of year again)

[johnbhoy76]

Got into an argument with a 911 'truther' and he posted this clip that I've never seen before

According to him it is amateur footage of WTC7 being downed by a controlled explosion. Has anyone seen this before and if so what is the general consensus on this footage?

[Nick]

I don't know but it must be Obama's fault for not stopping it as a community organizer.

[rickymooston]

Got into an argument with a 911 'truther' and he posted this clip that I've never seen before

According to him it is amateur footage of WTC7 being downed by a controlled explosion. Has anyone seen this before and if so what is the general consensus on this footage?

Well, first of all, I am not an expert on determining if footage is faked. That said, i don't bother to look for claims like this.

First of all, you have the problem of the crashed air planed, tons ofcwitnesses, etc, etc

Second of all, I can see no motive. I cannot believe that sl.e "black ops" at the highest levels woukd
Kill Americans just because of some Kabul controoled by the president says so.

Third of all, i dont think GEOrge Bush or his friends woukd do this. I disagree with their politics but i believe they are loyal to their country.

On tye other hand, we have lots of evidence of Americans makibg shit about about their government. Americans do tgis even more than people living in actual tyrannies. It seems to be a national psychosis existing on both the right and left of the political spectrum among all age groups. Other coubtries havrle crazy peoole but this kind of thing is uniwuely part of the American mythology.

Do not get me wrong. Most Americans are not conspiracy whack jobs. But oh my god, you guys have this problem more than others


The truth about 911 is very boring
1) American security was a bit lax
2) A small number of people observed this.
3) the chance of the government finding said plot was relatively small. In fact they did get reports but those reports were combined with hundreds of false ones and the needle was lost in a haystack
4) there are a lot of peoplevin the muslim world unhappy with american foreign policy.

[Death over Life]

Got into an argument with a 911 'truther' and he posted this clip that I've never seen before

Welcome to my recent life. I not only have to put up with 9/11 "Truther" nonsense, but also Illuminati, NWO, the "birthers", everybody but Ron Paul out to get us etc.

It has gotten to a point where I hate conspiracy theories more than religion, and I never thought anything would top religion.

[Quesi]

WTC 7 is odd.  I watched both of the towers collapse live on TV, and I watched the billowing smoke from my office window.  I breathed in the soot and the melted metal and debris on Thursday, when the wind shifted and brought it to my neighborhood, and the lingering cloud blocked out the sun. 

A dear friend watched the second plane hit.  Another friend collapsed and was hospitalized fleeing the site. 

There is no doubt in my mind that a group of well organized, well trained hijackers flew two planes into each of the towers, and that the subsequent heat melted the support beams and caused the buildings to collapse into themselves.

The collapse of WTC 7 was odd.  It was so many hours later.  It had not been hit by a plane.  And the fact that they didn't come out with a report on why it collapsed until 2008 made it ripe ground for conspiracy theorists. 

I genuinely don't understand the explanations of the collapse.  I do understand the debris fell on it, that there were fires on several floors that could not be combated due to various reasons, including low water pressure.  I've seen the diagrams and heard the explanation about the fact that after the 7th floor it only had 3 beams or tressels or some such thing. 

I also know that the Department of Defense and the CIA were housed in the building, and that they might have had an interest in protecting their secrets during this unprecedented vulnerability.  But I cannot imagine that in the chaos of the collapse of the towers, that even the DOD or the CIA could have gotten the resources in there to destroy the building. 

Your video?  I don't know.  I really don't have an opinion.

Here is a "debunking" video on WTC 7.

[rickymooston]

Got into an argument with a 911 'truther' and he posted this clip that I've never seen before

Welcome to my recent life. I not only have to put up with 9/11 "Truther" nonsense, but also Illuminati, NWO, the "birthers", everybody but Ron Paul out to get us etc.

It has gotten to a point where I hate conspiracy theories more than religion, and I never thought anything would top religion.

The psychology is the same. Have you read "why people believe weird things"

[Quesi]

And then of course, there is the Face of God/Face of Satan video.



That is enough to make a believer out of me. 

[rickymooston]

A dear friend watched the second plane hit.  Another friend collapsed and was hospitalized fleeing the site. 

Sounds like a smoking gun to me but of course the weed smoking truther movement can counter this
Kind of stuff with all kinds of excuses ... 


Yiu have seen the smoke doesn't of ciurse prove the planes caused the problem but obviously many New Yorkers like your friend saw tge planes hit.

I also know that the Department of Defense and the CIA were housed in the building, and that they might have had an interest in protecting their secrets during this unprecedented vulnerability.  But I cannot imagine that in the chaos of the collapse of the towers, that even the DOD or the CIA could have gotten the resources in there to destroy the building. 

Why did you write this? I am confused. You were playing a sort of devil's advocate p?

First of all, why is it hard to believe that the department of defense knows how to protect their secrets?
Technologies such as vaults, safes, passwords, encryption, paper shreders, incinatorsvand others come to mind. Whatever they have is state of the art.

Second, why do Americans imagine their givernment is out to kill them?

Why even acknowledge the premises upon which the paranoia is based?

People join the FBI, the deoartment of defense and the CIA to defend their country. Thevpeople tgat join are regular people with clean records in the case of those who are security checks.

This whole premise that one's government is plotting to get one is insane. USA is fsr from perfect but it is not
North Korea.

[Death over Life]

The psychology is the same. Have you read "why people believe weird things"

No, I haven't read it. It is definately a good question, the title of the book that is.

This whole premise that one's government is plotting to get one is insane. USA is fsr from perfect but it is not
North Korea.

I wholeheartedly agree! \m/

[Quesi]

A dear friend watched the second plane hit.  Another friend collapsed and was hospitalized fleeing the site. 

Sounds like a smoking gun to me but of course the weed smoking truther movement can counter this
Kind of stuff with all kinds of excuses ... 

Yiu have seen the smoke doesn't of ciurse prove the planes caused the problem but obviously many New Yorkers like your friend saw tge planes hit.

Yeah.  And then she walked to a pay phone in the WTC complex[1]and tried to call her boss to explain that she had just seen a plane hit Tower 2, and that Tower 1 was on fire and that she was going to be late but that she was on her way.

She wasn't thinking very clearly.

I still can't think clearly about the events of that day.  And all of the things that have happened since. 

I also know that the Department of Defense and the CIA were housed in the building, and that they might have had an interest in protecting their secrets during this unprecedented vulnerability.  But I cannot imagine that in the chaos of the collapse of the towers, that even the DOD or the CIA could have gotten the resources in there to destroy the building. 

Why did you write this? I am confused. You were playing a sort of devil's advocate p?

First of all, why is it hard to believe that the department of defense knows how to protect their secrets?
Technologies such as vaults, safes, passwords, encryption, paper shreders, incinatorsvand others come to mind. Whatever they have is state of the art.

Second, why do Americans imagine their givernment is out to kill them?

Why even acknowledge the premises upon which the paranoia is based?

People join the FBI, the deoartment of defense and the CIA to defend their country. Thevpeople tgat join are regular people with clean records in the case of those who are security checks.

This whole premise that one's government is plotting to get one is insane. USA is fsr from perfect but it is not
North Korea.

1.	remember when we didn't all have cell phones?

I know the government didn't knock down the twin towers, and I'm pretty sure they didn't hide the image of the burning buildings on the back of a folded 20 dollar bill. 



And yes, this is not North Korea.  It is (was?) a much more powerful infrastructure.  And sometimes my tax dollars pay for things that I do not approve of.  Have the CIA and the DOD ever done crazy things?  Well, Iran Contra comes to mind.  The overthrow of Allende.  More recently, the failed overthrow of Chavez.  Aristide's hasty departure from Haiti.  I know more than most about the coup in Guatemala in 1954, and I can talk about the role of the CIA in that shameful historical event for many hours.   

Do they have secrets that they want to protect?  They certainly do.  Does the collapse of building 7 have anything to do with any of those secrets?  I don't think so. 

But the collapse of building 7 is odd.  And conspiracy theorists will never tire of the oddities. 

[Death over Life]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#WTC_7_was_demolished_by_order_of_the_WTC.27s_owner

Basically WTC7 collapsed because the infrastructure suffered to much damage from the debris of the twin towers to sustain itself. The firefighters noticed this, reported it to the Cheif of the Fire Dept. who then talked to Larry Silverstein about it. They both agreed that the building was going to collapse from damage no matter what, so both Silverstein and the Chief decided to pull the firefighters back so nobody else will be killed, hence the "pull it" claim, in which some use to represent controlled demolition.

The problem is, pull it in this case was withdrawing the firefighters. Pull it has not nor has ever been used as a demolition term. The terms were either blow it, or I think pop it. Pull it refers to collapsing buildings by attaching wires from the roof of a building and literally pulling it down. This was how WTC 6 collapsed.

By the end of the night though, Silverstein had no decision in the pulling of the firefighters. That was all the Chief of the Fire Dept. Although the collapse is interesting, it was not because of controlled demolition.

In addition, people also use this and the fact that Silverstein made a lot of money off of 9/11 that there was some sort of conspiracy. The point is to be skeptical and not believe anything without proof.

Conspiracy theories are the scientific method reversed. They have created a conclusion, and now they are making a hypothesis with the conclusion, and are forcing evidence to be put in the experimentation section, and discarding anything that shows counter evidence to the biased conclusion. 9/11 was not a conspiracy. The other big problem is, in the world of conspiracies, everything happens precisely at certain times and places pre-conceived. In conspiracy theory land, there is no such thing as a coincidence, which is what WTC 7 is. The only part of the conspiracy I'm interested in, people have mentioned (without evidence of course) that there were stock market papers within the building recording some kind of massive US stock for the month or 2 right before 9/11 that was destroyed with the intent of eradicating those documents. Cutting the conspiracy theory crap, it is interesting if there was stock market documents within the building.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

And then of course, there is the Face of God/Face of Satan video.

That is enough to make a believer out of me.

I see a basset hound on both sides, then a perched bird on the left, then a big nosed bastard on the right.  No gods or devils.  Strangely though, I'm a believer now too 

[screwtape]

... and I can talk about the role of the CIA in that shameful historical event for many hours.   

http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-The-History-CIA/dp/038551445X

cool book.  Essentially, the history of the CIA is a history of utter failure, despite the media portraying them as omniscient and hypercompetent.
 

[Quesi]

... and I can talk about the role of the CIA in that shameful historical event for many hours.   

http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-The-History-CIA/dp/038551445X

cool book.  Essentially, the history of the CIA is a history of utter failure, despite the media portraying them as omniscient and hypercompetent.

Nice link.  Thanks. 

This is the book that changed my life many years ago, and put me on a path that would change my life. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-Story-American-Guatemala/dp/0674075900

[Fiji]

took me a while to track this down (partly because my brain sucks at this memory thing) but it seems the footage was taken from ...


which makes the first video in this thread yet another case of using what you know to a lie to support your point.
You know, Orwell was on to something with that doublethink of his.

[Seppuku]

took me a while to track this down (partly because my brain sucks at this memory thing) but it seems the footage was taken from ...

Thanks for posting that, I knew it was a hoax video because I had seen that before, but I couldn't remember who made it. I should have known it was Edward Current (I am subscribed after all). Besides, it doesn't look very real anyway. But I guess people will only see what they want to see. This is why I prefer to have genuine evidence and not speculations ontop of ambiguous data.

Besides I thought it was thermite that caused these buildings to collapse, that was the claim, right? Thermite doesn't do explosion charges, Thermite cutting works differently. All the thermite theorists have is something that might look like thermite cutting. But their so called evidence offers nothing on the time line between the collapse and the photographs, because said photographs could have been taken during the clean up, which would have had them cutting through the girders. Plus there's other debunks on that one.

It's hard to take 9/11 conspiracy theories seriously, sure governments can be corrupt and certainly they have been known to harm their own civilians and by no means is America special and protected from it ever happening, but because it can happen doesn't mean it has happened. I would rather listen to real science and not psuedo-science.

[johnbhoy76]

took me a while to track this down (partly because my brain sucks at this memory thing) but it seems the footage was taken from ...


which makes the first video in this thread yet another case of using what you know to a lie to support your point.
You know, Orwell was on to something with that doublethink of his.

Thank you thank you thank x 1000!! 

[johnbhoy76]

took me a while to track this down (partly because my brain sucks at this memory thing) but it seems the footage was taken from ...

Besides I thought it was thermite that caused these buildings to collapse, that was the claim, right? Thermite doesn't do explosion charges, Thermite cutting works differently.

Can you elaborate on that? Or link me up with more info on that?

[Gohavesomefun]

Let's say someone reads someone elses reply on this thread and starts to believe the opposing argument. Like all theories involving sinister plots, it really doesn't matter what you think now because what's happened has happened. I hope one day the unequivocal truth comes for us all so we can stop having these debates.

Anyhow, to give my view; I don't think it was as the media reported. There is a very good video on youtube (maybe someone can point it out?) where it quite convincingly shows how the video footage was not normal and had probably been tampered. As a wider question, I think attention needs to be drawn on just how the US treats it's own people as well as those abroad. They have the ability, the resources and the will to do terrible things.

Also, I think it's pretty sad that people put so much attention on this as opposed to the masses of death and destruction being carried out by said goverment. But of course, because it happened on 'American Soil'; it automatically becomes the worst event of the new millenia.

Brother please.

[Seppuku]

took me a while to track this down (partly because my brain sucks at this memory thing) but it seems the footage was taken from ...

Besides I thought it was thermite that caused these buildings to collapse, that was the claim, right? Thermite doesn't do explosion charges, Thermite cutting works differently.

Can you elaborate on that? Or link me up with more info on that?

Here's a debunk of it so you've got information on the claims and the rebuttal.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

That site will probably have information regarding 9/11 you need, but I am unsure exactly how effective of a debunk is, this site was just the result of a Google search and it looked like it has a lot of relevant info.