Author Topic: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)  (Read 12701 times)

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Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #232 on: June 20, 2013, 10:03:54 PM »

This is where I get my evidence for creation.  For these guys to get there "proof" of evolution, they need human involved experimentation (cloning, etc.) for their results.  When they cloned "Dolly" it was a slam dunk.  They don't talk about why Dolly died.

Ah, so your "evidence for creation" is one big argument from ignorance fallacy. "I can't imagine how it happened any other way. Therefore God did it" or "It's just impossible that it happened any other way then the way I have in my head. So God did it."

Both of these are irrational, and attempting to explain a mystery by yet another big mystery doesn't explain anything.

The funny part is, absolutely NONE of this has to do with whether or not your alleged god exists. Lots of Christians accept the science of evolution, and common descent, (ever hear of Dr. Ken Miller at Brown University?). So the point is moot as to proving your case regarding a deity.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline JeffPT

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #233 on: June 20, 2013, 10:08:58 PM »
Huh? You don't know what you're issues are?  All mutations are deleterious (real, observable, science)......that's all the science you need to know that we started form some singular point.....a point that can be nothing other than a singular point (call it creation).  With all observable, scientific observational mutations being deleterious, how can anything "evolve"?.

This is absolutely false.  The mutations we have can be neutral, bad, or good.  The bulk of them happen to be bad, but if something as simple as the DNA strand that codes for one photoreceptor has a mutation and suddenly makes 2, you've got a beneficial mutation for something that benefits from being able to sense light in some form or another.  You can't track those small mutations as they happen because the benefit or the detraction of a mutation totally depends on the environment in which it occurs. 

There is some debate as to whether it happens more often in larger chunks where you get an extremely rare thing like 2 simultaneous mutations that cause a massive change that is beneficial to the organism. This theory is called punctuated equilibrium and a perfect example is the Lenski experiment.  Check it out and then try telling us that all mutations are deleterious with a straight face. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

If you don't understand it, basically what happened is that they were growing E-coli strains for many years using a citrate broth with some glucose in it.  Wild E-coli can't feed off the citrate, but it does eat the glucose.  Somewhere in one of the many thousands of strains they grew, one strain experienced a genetic mutation that allowed for the E-coli to start feeding off the citrate and the population of that batch exploded above the others.  They even located where the genetic mutation happened.  If you can't accept that as a beneficial mutation, then I don't know what else to tell you.  It's a slam dunk. 

When you say 'all mutations are deleterious', I really don't think you're taking into account the environment in which they happen.  A good example of how a single gene mutation can be both good AND bad (depending where you are geographically) is Sickle Cell Anemia. This condition is a single mutation that causes a problem with the blood cells that can shorten the life span to somewhere near 45 years (still old enough to have offspring) BUT... having this trait also makes you vastly, VASTLY more resistant to malaria.  So go figure... where do most of the people who get Sickle Cell have ancestry?  You guessed it... tropical regions where malaria was prevalent.  People who had Sickle Cell had a distinct survival advantage over those who did not have Sickle Cell in tropical areas due to high malaria cases, but those who had Sickle Cell in areas where malaria was not prevalent, it was just considered a bad disease.  The people who were exposed to malaria (that had the Sickle Cell mutation) had a massive survival advantage over those who didn't and they passed that genetic mutation on to their children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

Evolution is a valid theory. 

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

I have also read extensively on the subject and I have a medical background and found your assessment to be horribly misguided.  Have you read anything by someone who wasn't a Christian?  Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review?   

Science doesn't give a shit whether or not you and I agree on the existence of an invisible sky man.  It's only interested in what it finds.  Look at what the people doing the science and presenting it to other scientists are saying.  Mutations can and are beneficial sometimes.  It's just a lot more rare and it has to be taken in geographical / environmental context. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #234 on: June 20, 2013, 10:17:34 PM »
There is only one text.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #235 on: June 20, 2013, 10:22:47 PM »
Three direct...OK.....let me figure this out:

" that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming."

Are these the "3" questions?

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

This is exactly my point. Neither you, nor I, are experts on evolutionary biology. At best, your answer should be one of agnosticism on the subject. And yes, those were questions. Did you miss the question marks after the sentences?

Now, what is this "extensive research" you claim to have done? I'll ask again. Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses? Have you talked to any evolutionary biologists? What disinterested investigation have you participated in? Have you tried to best represent the opposite side of what you believe regarding this? If all you've done is sit at home and read books/articles, you haven't done enough. Ever hear of confirmation bias? This is why we have peer review. But perhaps you don't care about that. Perhaps personal bias doesn't concern you when it comes to science (which is of course why lone wolf "study" isn't sufficient in science). If this is so for you, why should anyone listen to what you have to say?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #236 on: June 20, 2013, 10:23:10 PM »
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #237 on: June 20, 2013, 10:25:04 PM »
Three direct...OK.....let me figure this out:

" that the answerer must assume in order to answer the question. I reject your premise that all mutations are "deleterious". You're quite mistaken. Have you ever even taken one biological anthropology course? How about a biology class in general? Ever talked to any biologists regarding this claim of yours? I hear a resounding ignorance gong coming."

Are these the "3" questions?

I'll assume they are.  No. I'm an engineer who has researched/read extensively on the subject.   Does that make me wrong?   What are your credentials, thus making you an expert?

This is exactly my point. Neither you, nor I, are experts on evolutionary biology. At best, your answer should be one of agnosticism on the subject. And yes, those were questions. Did you miss the question marks after the sentences?

Now, what is this "extensive research" you claim to have done? I'll ask again. Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses? Have you talked to any evolutionary biologists? What disinterested investigation have you participated in? Have you tried to best represent the opposite side of what you believe regarding this? If all you've done is sit at home and read books/articles, you haven't done enough. Ever hear of confirmation bias? This is why we have peer review. But perhaps you don't care about that. Perhaps personal bias doesn't concern you when it comes to science (which is of course why lone wolf "study" isn't sufficient in science). If this is so for you, why should anyone listen to what you have to say?

I asked you first......what are you credentials?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #238 on: June 20, 2013, 10:35:19 PM »
Hurry up guys.... I gotta go.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #239 on: June 20, 2013, 10:39:50 PM »
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?

You do know that a theory is the HIGHEST point in science, don't you? Ever hear of the theory of gravity? Creationism is NOT a theory. It is an 'hypothesis' (at BEST) and has absolutely no scientific or observational backing. That is why creationists are busy lobbying congress and creating "wedge" strategies (know what that is?)  instead of doing real scientific investigation or submitting evidence  (ever hear of Phillip Johnson at the Discovery Institute?).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #240 on: June 20, 2013, 10:44:21 PM »

I asked you first......what are you credentials?

Now you are just a plain liar. NO, I ASKED YOU FIRST and you admitted that you have no scientific background. Please go back and read my first three questions. I'm going to assume you've never taken any biology courses, or you wouldn't be arguing this way. And since neither of us is an expert in biology (yes I admit I'm not an expert) then there should be a little bit more humility in the air. However, I suppose that you have a lot invested in this religion thing of yours and it would really cost you a lot to lose it. I however do not have any vested interested in leading the evidence. I argue that we should follow the evidence where it leads (along with sound reasoning). Agreed?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #241 on: June 20, 2013, 10:46:17 PM »
 ":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #242 on: June 20, 2013, 10:49:51 PM »
'Evolution is a valid theory."

And a creation theory isn't?

You do know that a theory is the HIGHEST point in science, don't you? Ever hear of the theory of gravity? Creationism is NOT a theory. It is an 'hypothesis' (at BEST) and has absolutely no scientific or observational backing. That is why creationists are busy lobbying congress and creating "wedge" strategies (know what that is?)  instead of doing real scientific investigation or submitting evidence  (ever hear of Phillip Johnson at the Discovery Institute?).

No,  your wrong.  If Me Ching is right....He's right.  Doesn't matter his credentials.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #243 on: June 20, 2013, 10:50:08 PM »
":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.

Are you really that lazy, and arrogant, that you can't post the argument here so we can discuss it? I could just tell you to go read a hundred books. Would that do any good for this discussion? I'm interested in rational interchange. If you have solid evidence for "creation" please present it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #244 on: June 20, 2013, 10:51:59 PM »
Tell me.....what is your pedigree.....what are your credentials......your premise on being right is our credentials  being not "right".,
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #245 on: June 20, 2013, 10:53:57 PM »


No,  your wrong.  If Me Ching is right....He's right.  Doesn't matter his credentials.


WTF? Did I ever say someone is wrong MERELY because they have no credentials? I didn't, did I? What I said was that if neither of us has credentials in biology then some humility is in order. Did you read a word I wrote?

Regarding Phillip Johnson, I was asking you due to his "wedge" strategy! Please try to stay within my words.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #246 on: June 20, 2013, 10:54:57 PM »
":Where did you hear that all mutations are deleterious and why do you feel they were a reliable source?  Do you have any non-religious people saying the same thing?  Was it from someone who published something for peer review? "

You need to read the book "Genetic Enthalpy":   Similar to universal enthalpy ( second "law" of thermodynamics): but I digress.

Are you really that lazy, and arrogant, that you can't post the argument here so we can discuss it? I could just tell you to go read a hundred books. Would that do any good for this discussion? I'm interested in rational interchange. If you have solid evidence for "creation" please present it.

Come on.....who's being lazy?????   Your side is supposed to have it all figured out......
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #247 on: June 20, 2013, 11:01:28 PM »
Tell me.....what is your pedigree.....what are your credentials......your premise on being right is our credentials  being not "right".,

WRONG. You haven't presented a shred of evidence for your assertion regarding "creation", and my not accepting of your claim doesn't require credentials. However, if you want others to think the way you do (aka - that we were "created") then you'll have to bring forth demonstrable evidence (just like everyone else in science must do).

As I said before, neither of us have credentials in biological science - which is exactly why 1) we ought to be more humble regarding subjects we have not fully studied, and 2) we should be admitting when we don't know things. Are you willing to admit that you don't know how humans got here?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:13:03 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #248 on: June 20, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »

Come on.....who's being lazy?????   Your side is supposed to have it all figured out......

HA! You have me confused with your church dude. That is what religion does - pretend to have all the answers by assuming a holy book is "the word of God" (whatever that means). What hubris.


Btw, my "side"? Really? So you think all science is against you then? WOW.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:08:22 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #249 on: June 20, 2013, 11:11:41 PM »
I don't have all the answers.  When did I say I did?  I asked for your credentials......I'm still waiting.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #250 on: June 20, 2013, 11:14:49 PM »
I don't have all the answers.  When did I say I did?  I asked for your credentials......I'm still waiting.

I actually already answered. I suppose you just can't read, can you? But since you seem to be the one making the argument that credentials don't matter, why do you keep repeating the question?

Btw, you certainly do seem to be acting as if you have "the answers" regarding evolutionary biology (i.e. - that your conception of evolution is false) even though you've already admitted that you don't have credentials in that field and, by your silence implied, that you haven't taken any courses in the subject.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:17:16 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #251 on: June 20, 2013, 11:16:04 PM »
WRONG. You haven't presented a shred of evidence for your assertion regarding "creation", and my not accepting of your claim doesn't require credentials. However, if you want others to think the way you do (aka - that we were "created") then you'll have to bring forth demonstrable evidence (just like everyone else in science must do).

As I said before, neither of us have credentials in biological science - which is exactly why 1) we ought to be more humble regarding subjects we have not fully studied, and 2) we should be admitting when we don't know things. Are you willing to admit that you don't know how humans got here?
[/quote]
Look at the trees.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #252 on: June 20, 2013, 11:18:31 PM »
Look at the trees.

LOL. The trees! Yes! I've seen them. And?



p.s. - please learn how to use the quote function.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jtp56

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #253 on: June 20, 2013, 11:25:43 PM »
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #254 on: June 20, 2013, 11:29:45 PM »
A billion years of observable science that says all mutations are deleterious.....good luck with that.  Really, only about 6000 years old.....just ask our sun.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #255 on: June 20, 2013, 11:32:30 PM »
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......

There is no burden of proof for the answer "I don't know". It's actually quite appalling that in all of this alleged "research" you claim to have done you didn't realize this pinnacle of science (aka - what drives science is not knowing things and then looking for answers - not assuming a conclusion in advance and then practicing confirmation bias).

Regarding Genesis 1, no sorry. That's not evidence. That is a CLAIM written in an old book. Again, another appalling discovery here. In your studies you failed to understand the difference between claims and evidence. Why am I not surprised [ret].
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:34:33 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #256 on: June 20, 2013, 11:38:21 PM »
So I have to bring forth evidence that we are created and you can formulate your argument against any burden of proof....you win.  Ahh....OK. Genesis 1:1 In The Beginning..... Sorry....that's the only truth I have.  You have about a billion years of whatever......

There is no burden of proof for the answer "I don't know". It's actually quite appalling that in all of this alleged "research" you claim to have done you didn't realize this pinnacle of science (aka - what drives science is not knowing things and then looking for answers - not assuming a conclusion in advance and then practicing confirmation bias).

Regarding Genesis 1, no sorry. That's not evidence. That is a CLAIM written in an old book. Again, another appalling discovery here. In your studies you failed to understand the difference between claims and evidence. Why am I not surprised.

I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real? 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #257 on: June 20, 2013, 11:38:32 PM »
A billion years of observable science that says all mutations are deleterious.....good luck with that.  Really, only about 6000 years old.....just ask our sun.

We've already refuted your claim that all mutations are not beneficial. Either you are ignoring the evidence or you are damn dishonest. I say both, but not even Johnson, Dembski, or Behe go this far. People in your own camp are disagreeing with you.

And 6000 years old? Are you actually attempting to make the argument that earth is only 6000 years old? You really have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Please go take some science courses and come back when you are better informed.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #258 on: June 20, 2013, 11:40:19 PM »
See u tomorrow....bye for now.  Love u man.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #259 on: June 20, 2013, 11:44:08 PM »

I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require.  You have to believe it.  You will never believe unless you believe.  Do you believe that what you believe is really real?

You're talking about faith, which is not a pathway to truth. Faith is unreliable for separating fact from fiction. Anyone can just have faith in anything. It does nothing to decipher what is true from what is false. Why would you believe the bible, or anything for that matter, on faith?

To your question, that would depend entirely upon what you mean by "believe" and what you mean by "real".


"You will never believe unless you believe"?? A tautology as an answer? Really?





Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #260 on: June 20, 2013, 11:45:44 PM »
See u tomorrow....bye for now.  Love u man.

Oh yes, I really feel that Christian love coming from your posts...not.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan