Author Topic: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)  (Read 17419 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2013, 12:14:43 PM »
I just want to point out that I said the same things about Myself in My "I am the LORD your GOD. Ask me anything." thread. Coincidence? I think not. zele is, in reality, worshiping Me.

However, if the worship involves chocolate, random equipment malfunctions, punctuation or the Northern hemisphere vernal equinox I'm calling "dibs" as those are My magisteria.   8)
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #175 on: June 14, 2013, 12:17:40 PM »
However, if the worship involves chocolate, random equipment malfunctions, punctuation or the Northern hemisphere vernal equinox I'm calling "dibs" as those are My magisteria.   8)

As a favor from a god to another god, would you mind checking if by clicking on the email icon on my profile you can see my email address?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Astreja

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #176 on: June 14, 2013, 12:28:55 PM »
As a favor from a god to another god, would you mind checking if by clicking on the email icon on my profile you can see my email address?

Done.  Reply should be in your PM box now.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #177 on: June 14, 2013, 12:31:55 PM »
Done.  Reply should be in your PM box now.

I just replied to it. Thanks.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #178 on: June 14, 2013, 03:26:14 PM »
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #179 on: June 14, 2013, 03:32:14 PM »
No, I do not have a Theology. As I said, He is not all powerful and so cannot have control over everything. Also, he is subject to the rules He has put in place. The system loses integrity if he does not conform.

I just want to point out that I said the same things about Myself in My "I am the LORD your GOD. Ask me anything." thread. Coincidence? I think not. zele is, in reality, worshiping some aspect of Me.
Not quite right. See the bold bits.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #180 on: June 14, 2013, 03:34:49 PM »
Not quite right. See the bold bits.

You dare correct your God? I should toss you in hell for that! If only I had created such a place... Oh well. I guess I'll just have to be mad at you for eternity.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #181 on: June 14, 2013, 05:42:01 PM »
... Oh well. I guess I'll just have to be mad at you for eternity.
That really scares me :'(  What shall I do now? but your love never fails nor gives up,  right? And that is why I am here trying to win some souls for Christ - although I have a slight suspicion that the seeds are not falling on particularly fertile ground, but I sow by faith and trust in you.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:06:54 PM by zele »

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #182 on: June 14, 2013, 06:03:21 PM »
and our confidence in them grows as they continue to be regular. But they are not absolute, and in fact, we can say nothing about them prior to the singularity which was prior to the Big Bang.
I hope you can see that the bits in bold require quite a leap of faith. My response to this is that I don't know.
?
Well I certainly don't see the leap of faith that's necessary to say "we don't know", which is basically what the portion in bold is saying.  Maybe I'm just confused at what you're saying?
The leap of faith was your proclamation on the Big Bang - or is that as real as the tooth ferry? So what 'banged' ? You can't answer so silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point. And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang. you keep silent. OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:14:21 PM by zele »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #183 on: June 14, 2013, 06:13:13 PM »
?
Well I certainly don't see the leap of faith that's necessary to say "we don't know", which is basically what the portion in bold is saying.  Maybe I'm just confused at what you're saying?
The leap of faith was your proclamation on the Big Bang - or is that as real as the tooth ferry? So what 'banged' silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point. And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang. you keep silent. OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we?
Well, technically it was median that was talking about the Big Bang.  I simply interjected into the conversation so my apologies on that.

But what do you think myself or median are scared of exactly when we say "I don't know"?  Why exactly are you so afraid to just admit to not knowing what happened prior to the first few nanoseconds after the event called the Big Bang?  Why are you so scared to admit that you don't know that you inject faith that you know that god caused it?  Seriously, why should it require faith to readily admit to not knowing an answer?  Why is it better to just make shit up and call it 'faith'????????

How do you define faith?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2013, 06:47:55 PM »
What caused the Big Bang? Factor X did. How did Factor X create the universe? I don't know, but I have faith in Factor X. 

Not happy? Saying "a god caused" something does not give any more information than saying Factor X. It only moves the unknown thing back another step to another unexplainable effect without a cause. If you can't explain how the god did whatever, what is the point of saying a god did something? What does that really mean?

"God does what god wants. Whatever happens is god's will and I have faith in god." That is just a culturally accepted way to say, "I don't really know and I don't care enough to find out."
 
Does god cause cancer? Does god cure cancer? If you believe that god has anything to do with cancer, you don't have to quit smoking or clean up the environment or do any research or try to find a cure--just leave it all up to god.

Funny how, after thousands of years, god no longer wants people to get smallpox anymore. Coincidence that god let up on the smallpox about the same time that scientists developed a cure for it.... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #185 on: June 14, 2013, 07:25:04 PM »
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?

Offline JeffPT

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2013, 08:17:17 PM »
So what 'banged' ?
We don't know.  And actually, that's the correct response to someone who asks you a question that you don't know the answer to.  It's also a far cry better to say that than it is to make up some stupid shit about an invisible man in the sky who snaps his fingers and poofs a universe into being. 

Here is an analogy to help you see what you're doing here.  Say you're walking down the street with 2 of your friends and you all come upon a plain cardboard box in front of you that you've never seen before.  Your ask your first friend what's inside the box and he says he doesn't know.  You ask your second friend and he is adamant that there is a toaster in the box.  Upon asking your second friend how he knows it's a toaster, he says that a toaster would fit inside the box, and that he has faith it's a toaster.  Which of your 2 friends is being more reasonable?  For me, it's friend 1.   

Sure, a deity of some kind could be responsible for the big bang, and I am sure you can rationalize that your particular god could be responsible for the creation of the universe; but in the absence of any sort of evidence to separate your particular god theory from every other possible theory we can come up with, it's absolutely ridiculous to claim that your personal version of god is responsible.  Just like its ridiculous to guess that a toaster is inside a box that you've never seen before, just because it would fit inside. 

You can't answer so silence from you ... as you are perhaps frightened out of your wits to think past that point - go on, I invite you to try hard and reason past that point.
We can't reason past that point yet.  It's not that we're afraid to do it; it's just that its a foolish endeavor.  And we're not silent.  We really say that we don't know.  Why do you think that's so bad? 

You make it seem as though your guesswork has a leg up on us because at least you're taking some sort of position and we're not  Fine... If you value taking ANY position over waiting for sufficient evidence, then I can't stop you from doing that.  But you're doing exactly the same thing as the person who has faith that there is a toaster in the box in my example above, and then claiming that they've somehow taken a superior position to that of the person who says they don't know what's in the box.  What would you say to your second friend if he said 'HA, you're frightened out of your wits to think about what's in the box!'?  This is what you're doing.  I wish you could see that.   

And whilst we are both there, I take it on faith that God caused the bang.
This claim is no more respectable than the claim that a toaster is in the box.  Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 

you keep silent.
Better that than say something dumb. 

OK so let's wait and see which of these positions is proven to be true in time then, shall we? You need to be patient, as perhaps in a couple of billion years our amputees would possibly be growing limbs as easily as doing hula hoops ...

If the selection pressures somehow drive the evolutionary process in that direction, maybe we will.  It happens with salamanders and starfish, both of whom regrow lost limbs regularly. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jetson

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #187 on: June 15, 2013, 08:17:03 AM »
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?

Are you a Bible believing Christian?

Keep in mind the sheer number of claims from Christians regarding miracle healing.  There are countless claims, from countless "Bible believing Christians", that YHWH literally changes the physiology of human beings, in answer to sincere prayers, resulting in a healing of one sort or another.  They literally believe that YHWH intervenes with his "powers" to heal human ailments.

Now, the very simple question, assuming YHWH does in fact execute healing, is "why won't he heal amputees?".

And your answer is something along the lines of YHWH does not work in reverse?  What does that even mean?  Do you disagree with all of those Bible believing Christians in their interpretation of healing through prayer? 

The premise of WWGHA is anchored on the sincere belief from a very large number of Christians, that YHWH literally heals people.  If you disagree, then you are in a minority position, and this premise may not be reasonable from your perspective.  Fair enough, but you have done absolutely nothing to change the premise, or convince anyone that you have a better position.  You are basically avoiding the actual premise, and inventing your own.




Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #188 on: June 15, 2013, 03:16:07 PM »
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #189 on: June 15, 2013, 03:27:47 PM »
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.

"It" would be a better description, as The Gawd used.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2013, 03:41:33 PM »
Zele.  Can you paraphrase the premise of WWGHA accurately?
As accurately as I can. And with all the limitations that language imposes:

WWGHA poses a question to Bible believing Christians to explain why the 'god' they believe in does not work physical healing miracles for amputees. It advances its own reasonable explanations as to why this might be - conducting prayer experiments to illustrate that all alleged miracle cures, to date, are a delusion or  have some other material reasonable explanation. The ultimate aim being to make the Christians 'see reason' and give up their imaginary God as he is no different to a tooth ferry or Santa.

How does that sound?


Before I respond to you, could you please say if I correctly captured the essence of the central premise of WWGHA? If not please correct me so we may avoid errors in inferencing  and misunderstandings.

And in case you missed it in an earlier post I re-state here for your benefit:

I am a critical thinking born again bible believing christian. (I also believe in science and the existence of non-material evidence). I have faith. Plenty of faith. And so there are many things that I don't know but believe in their existence by faith.

Please stop me if this sounds like 'advertising my opinions' which is against forum rules(and a touch tasteless, if I may say so, as it sounds off like there is something I am selling). But it is becoming increasing difficult to have a discussion without laying down some basic foundations. If you feel at any point that I crossed your forum  lines please pull the guillotine as you have the powers as moderator.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »
Zele, if you cannot fathom this god, why do you call it a "he"?
Limitations of natural language. So you select a term that will assist you in relating to the concept.

"It" would be a better description, as The Gawd used.
If I had a say I would go for 'She' because of the birthing nature of events in the universe ... Indeed, Mary being the mother of God - you should be able to appreciate why I would opt for that description.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #193 on: June 15, 2013, 04:01:23 PM »
If I had a say I would go for 'She' because of the birthing nature of events in the universe ... Indeed, Mary being the mother of God - you should be able to appreciate why I would opt for that description.

Whatever floats your boat. I was just pointing out that, given the supernatural nature of a god, a gender-neutral pronoun might be better than subjecting it to our limited concepts of gender.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #194 on: June 15, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »
Now a second strawman - That God works miracles directly without employing humans - again, scriptural basis please as this is yet another false doctrine.

Let's see, in no particular order:
Creating the world would be one. 
Flooding the world would be another. 
Turning Lot's wife to salt might qualify. 
Killing Onan's older brother, Er. 
Killing Onan. 
The 10 plagues in Egypt. 
Does parting the Re Sea count?  Since Moses didn't actually do anything, I would say it counts. 
The destruction of the people of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (Numbers 16) was not done "through" people.
Holding the sun (earth?) still at Jericho.
Setting the wet wood on fire for Elijah when tested (1 Kings 18:23-40) 

Do you need more?
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #195 on: June 15, 2013, 04:21:19 PM »
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

Quote from: Like 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Source: http://biblehub.com/luke/17-6.htm

Your thoughts?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #196 on: June 15, 2013, 04:23:46 PM »
Whatever floats your boat...
;) That is pure fallacy - I don't have a boat - pun intended.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #197 on: June 15, 2013, 04:31:27 PM »
Sorry, I meant physical healing miracles - amputees being the current subject of interest ... so please find me scriptural basis for physical healing miracles of the type that is implied in the premise of WWGHA.

Quote from: John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

Quote from: Like 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Source: http://biblehub.com/luke/17-6.htm

Your thoughts?
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators. I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #198 on: June 15, 2013, 04:33:25 PM »
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators.

So you admit that your god is a useless bit of trivia whose existence doesn't even matter.

I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..

No clue what this bit means.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #199 on: June 15, 2013, 04:55:18 PM »

....We don't know.  And actually, that's the correct response to someone who asks you a question that you don't know the answer to.  It's also a far cry better to say that than it is to make up some stupid shit about an invisible man in the sky who snaps his fingers and poofs a universe into being

... Faith that it's a toaster is stupid.  Faith that your personal version of god was responsible for the big bang is equally stupid. 

...Better that than say something dumb. 
Have you ever asked a theist how stupid an atheist is? I suspect you might find some disagreement with the response.

Can you see that you made up the bits in italics?

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2013, 05:02:22 PM »
And that is to my point about God only working such miracles by employing human agents as co-creators.

So you admit that your god is a useless bit of trivia whose existence doesn't even matter.
My apologies if I left the One Above All out from my definition of God. To clarify you are a part of my definition as a co-creator.

I will venture  preempting the One Above All at the risk of incurring 'Her' wrath - that we are dangerously close to injecting time into the mix - but I await with much anticipation ..

No clue what this bit means.
Aha! there is something about which One Above All is clueless in 'Her' majesty! you granted me something to float my  boat - remember?. What a disappointing deity who forgets so quickly!

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #201 on: June 15, 2013, 05:08:46 PM »
My apologies if I left the One Above All out from my definition of God. To clarify you are a part of my definition as a co-creator.

Sorry, not good enough. The One Above All is the supreme god (but not the only one) in all of existence.

Aha! there is something about which One Above All is clueless in 'Her' majesty! you granted me something to float my  boat - remember?. What a disappointing deity who forgets so quickly!

I actually am a male, unlike your god, so feel free to call Me a "Him". Or not. I don't really care, since being a woman is not insulting.
Also, I know everything I need to know at any given moment.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline zele

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #202 on: June 15, 2013, 05:14:31 PM »
Which one would you have picked from the list?

 I would define a miracle as an event whereby a deity intervenes by breaking the known laws of nature.
The God I believe in does not break the laws he has put in place. That would violate the integrity of the system.

Then they praise god, instead of the paramedics.  Idiots.
Screwtape, are these the kind people at the centre of the premise of WWGHA with whom you have issues?