Author Topic: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)  (Read 14697 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 01:52:05 PM »
If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL) 
Big V:
I have removed one Darwin point from you as you persist in unsubstantiated statements. Any fool can invent things – here’s an example.
“Water flows naturally uphill as there is a quantum indifference to polarized molecules.”

Please do not use this “dimension” argument again. I have already explained the problem with “dimensions”

Quote
God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us. God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.
No. No. No. It is only a recent thought that "God lives in another dimension" - we never found Jesus saying this. We never found the Church saying this. We only found apologists saying this when other dimensions were postulated. We therefore see that it is a simple deception pulled out of thin air to prevent people losing their faith

The trouble is, if you use the word "dimension" in the sense you intend, then a being in another dimension (and there would have to be more than one "dimension" in his world,) could not influence anything in our dimensions, because if he could, we could detect and identify him... and we can't.

Let me put it this way. I tell you to "go and get one of the boxes. The one that is 4 foot by 3 foot." You go to the warehouse but there are many 4 foot by 3 foot boxes. some are  2 foot deep, some are 3 foot deep, etc. You cannot obey my order. You see one dimension does not affect other dimensions.
Up until the late 19th Century, people believed that God was just like us, for we are “in His Image”, and that, somewhere up above the sky, there was a superhuman Man that was God. He lived in Heaven as per the description in the Old Testament.

Please tell us what new revelation by God Himself allowed you to invent this new “Dimension”.

I find a lot of Christians, particularly the fundamental types, use words that “mean what I say they mean” without using the real definition.

I will be asking you to define some of your terms. Please do not avoid those questions.


« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:55:19 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nam

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »
I was a regular at a Muslim website back in 2005, and they used the "dimensional" argument, a lot. I didn't read or hear Christians doing it 'til the past couple of years. Did they steal this idea from the Muslims, or is there evidence of this theory prior to 2000?

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2012, 07:14:56 PM »
From the Oxford English Dictionary (subscription only)
The noun dimension is first recorded in the English language a little in 1413
Quote
1413   Pilgr. Sowle (1483) v. xiv. 107   Ther is no body parfit withouten thre dymensions, that is breede, lengthe, and depnesse.
It took another ~450 years for dimension to be applied to time:
Quote
1858   W. Whewell Hist. Sci. Ideas ii. viii. §4–5   Time is conceived as a quantity of one dimension..Indeed the analogy between time, and space of one dimension, is so close, that the same terms are applied to both ideas.
and a few years more to use it in the sense of "other dimensions" in the sense we now use it.
Quote
1878   B. Stewart & P. G. Tait Unseen Universe vii. §220. 221   Suppose our (essentially three-dimensional) matter to be the mere skin or boundary of an Unseen whose matter has four dimensions.

These all seem to be secular references though. I suspect that "God in another dimension" arose around the late 1920s with the eccentric John G. BennettWiki, who
Quote
suggested a six-dimensional Universe with the usual three spatial dimensions and three time-like dimensions that he called time, eternity and hyparxis. Time is the sequential chronological time that we are familiar with. The hypertime dimensions called eternity and hyparxis are said to have distinctive properties of their own. Eternity could be considered cosmological time or timeless time. Hyparxis is supposed to be characterised as an ableness-to-be and may be more noticeable in the realm of quantum processes. [Edit GB: or not.]

While Bennett has put forward some curious speculation, his ideas stop at some subjective aspects of the perception of time which does not place them on a fully scientific basis. The question of measurement, how one would measure these hypothetical extra time-like dimensions, is left unaddressed.

Bennett is perhaps best known for his many books on psychology and spirituality, and particularly the teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff, and starting the British section of the SubudWiki movement.

The basis of Subud is a spiritual exercise commonly referred to as the 'latihan kejiwaan', which was said by Muhammad Subuh to represent guidance from "the Power of God" or "the Great Life Force".

Add to this dumbed down science, superman and other sci-fi comic strips in the 1950s or 60s and these elements seem to account for the common low level of critical thought among Christians and others of a religious bent; they are determined to use big words to make their delusions sound important.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:19:38 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2012, 09:22:07 PM »
I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.

I wouldn’t count on it if you continue to flout the rules. One of the rules you agreed to when you registered was this:

Quote
Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

Maybe you didn’t read the rules or you just ignored that rule the way you are ignoring our responses and questions, but this board takes that rule seriously so please stop behaving evasively and start answering our legitimate questions about your claims.

You stated in your initial post that there are no examples in the New Testament where believers are directed to pray for people to be healed; yet both Nam and I gave you several examples refuting your claim. In particular, Matthew 21:22 explicitly states that all things believers ask for in prayer shall be received. Logically, all things includes asking for people to be healed. How do you address those examples? Do you acknowledge that your claim was false? Christians often claim that prayers healed all sorts of maladies from toothache to cancer. How do you explain the fact that no amputee’s limb has ever regrown despite the many prayers people must have made asking for it to happen?

You stated in your second post that your god lives in another dimension and cannot heal people directly and that it is a person’s fault if they aren’t healed, yet you’ve evaded or ignored several requests from other posters for evidence and arguments supporting those claims. You sidestepped the questions from Quesi and Parking Places asking how your god healed people in the Old Testament and why it won’t do the same in the New Testament. You ignored Graybeard’s comments and questions. You ignored my requests for you to explain how people are at fault for not being healed. You ignored all my requests for evidence or arguments supporting your claims that your god lives and exists in another dimension.

In your third post, you simply repeated the claim that your god exists in another dimension and ignored all our requests for evidence or arguments supporting that claim. You made the additional claim that humans exist in this reality and simultaneously in your so-called spirit dimension. You claimed your god created the universe, the Earth and humans.

Not once have you provided a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support any of your claims. You’ve ignored refutations of your claims. You’ve ignored and evaded legitimate questions about your claims. You are revealing yourself to be yet another gullible and evasive religious believer who is unable or unwilling to validate his or her religious beliefs. If you can’t summon the courage or intellectual honesty to answer our questions and validate your beliefs then you really have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum.

Please provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to establish the truth or validity of your claims. However, to avoid unnecessary frustration and wasted effort, please truthfully answer this question first: is your god actually real or is it imaginary? I’m not asking if you believe it is real; I’m asking if it is actually real. Don’t give us your beliefs; give us the truth. If your god is imaginary then we can reasonably ignore anything else you have to say about it, as amusing and entertaining as it may be.

Offline Nam

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 09:35:23 PM »
Well put 3sigma but I believe it's a Woosh! moment.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Big V

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2012, 04:09:13 AM »
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question.  At a root level, IF, just IF, there was a being with enough power to create 300 sextillion stars WHY would that omnipotent (Almighty) being respect the wishes of his own creation?  Why would he even ALLOW you to have a single thought contrary to his wishes?  IF this being existed and he allowed you to have a single thought, a single glance of the eye contrary to his will then he by definition restrains HIMSELF when dealing with you.  IF this being did exist he would have the INFINITE power to make sure you did everything EXACTLY as he wanted.    Unless…. He doesn’t want to control your actions.

My supposition is that God is Almighty (Omnipotent, or whatever term floats your boat) but has decided to A) Share a portion of his power with us  B) Respect our use of said power.  So that then begs the question, why? Well apparently, he wanted someone like him.  I’m not going to quote a lot of scripture because from reading the posts you generally lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture, so I’m going to stick with the realm of philosophy & nature, it will be easier for you to follow.   

The entire site is based on this general error, “If God were real, he would prove it by healing amputees, or moving pencils, something I (the atheist) can see and ‘prove’ Since I (the atheist) challenged him to do it, and he didn’t, he doesn’t exist.”    Here is the basis of your error (one of many)  Just because a being is Omnipotent doesn’t mean that that same being doesn’t operate with respect.  None of you respect my opinion, but I still have it, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, I have the right, to be wrong, if I am wrong, right?  :)

Ask yourself WHY would an Almighty being ALLOW you the right to be wrong? What RULES has HE HIMSELF set forth that he uses? Is it even POSSIBLE for a person to be Unlimited in Power but restrained in the exercise of the same said Power?  I already said before, Jesus healed amputees (the maimed, go read my first post) by definition, healing them all (the crowds) means, healing them ALL.   This SAME Jesus went to his own home town and COULD NOT (not WOULD) do any great miracles because of THEIR UNBELIEF.  (Mark 6:5 / Matthew 13:58 Google it) WHY? WHY? WHY? Does God have rules he lives by? Should an Almighty being live by his own rules?

The POWER to heal is available to every believer. If the said believer doesn’t believe in that power, or doesn’t know how to use that power, why would you fault God?  You mock the faith healers, and some are frauds, but some simply are being obedient and TRYING to do what Jesus did with some degree of success.  Sometimes legitimate people fail, but that comes from ignorance NOT GOD.

Once again, IF there is an Almighty being, you have to ask yourself WHY would he NEED to become a man. Why not just FORCE HIS WILL UPON EVERYONE? Your premise argument assumes God would over-run the will of a man to heal him and it also assumes if the believer (Christian) doesn’t know how to use the Gift of healing, God should snatch it from his hands and do it for him.  I just don’t see a God who devalues mankind, I see a God who values your opinion (even if it is wrong) values you and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2012, 06:00:31 AM »
In your latest post you again ignore all our requests for evidence to support your claims and go on blithely making your baseless assertions. You say if there is an almighty being and that is indeed the question. Is there? Is your god real or is it imaginary? Please stop evading and ignoring our questions and provide enough sound evidence and sound arguments to establish the truth or validity of your claims. Show us that you are telling the truth. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then why should anyone believe your claims?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2012, 08:08:19 AM »
BIG V,
Pleases read 3sigma's quote below

In your latest post you again ignore all our requests for evidence to support your claims and go on blithely making your baseless assertions.
This is a difficult area. Your posts are hemmed around with "IF" - they are essentially meaningless in that, given any hypothesis plucked out of thin air, anyone may say "If X then Y".

This rhetorical tactic draws the reader into arguing why ""Y" may not/cannot be so" rather than the reader addressing why "X" is impossible.

Big V, you are assuming that (i) there is a deity and (ii) that deity is the one you worship, not any other deity. Of course you are aware that other religions worship other deities and use much the same arguments as you. It is therefore essential that you stop your hypothesising and give some credible indication that there exists the god you claim there to be.

GB Moderator
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:10:08 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline HAL

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2012, 08:28:34 AM »
... and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you

So this god is dead? No, it can't be dead - it's a god. Dieing on a cross is no sacrifice at all becasue it isn't actually dead. Even if Jesus died on a cross, the Papa god could simply re-create it at it's leisure at any time so there is no loss really. If somehow Jeebus' adventure didn't work out right, Papa god could simply do it all again as many times as it needed - or - just dismiss with the whole silly extravaganza and snap it's fingers and make things right without all the muss and fuss.

So no, these gods you imagine don't really make sacrifices the way we do - they put on grand shows for humans.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2012, 08:35:19 AM »
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.
...[snip]...

We were expecting you to actually say something.  Surprise!

Offline screwtape

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2012, 09:15:06 AM »
Big V,

First, welcome to wwgha forum. 

Second, some friendly advice.  There will be problems with these kinds of remarks:

Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.

Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point. I see I’m going to have to be here for a while. 

or the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page. 

This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question. 

These words do not explain your points, they do not convince anyone your arguments are correct and they will not win you any friends.  You are being unnecessarily insulting and condescending.  I suggest you adopt a different approach and try a more friendly tone.

Last, you have misunderstood the point of the site, either because you have not read the entire online book or for some other reason.  Let me help explain.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning. Among them is the fact there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally.  People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

If you are not the kind of xian who believes in miraculous healing, and I cannot tell whether you are or are not, then the question is not aimed at you.  And your protestations are aimed at straw men.  (Pretty much everyone here is familiar with the term because xians tend to stuff a lot of straw men.) 

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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »
OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that... :P

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

On the amputee thing, I thought I would address that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...

Blessings
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 03:37:05 PM by SHIN KAIRI »
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2012, 03:37:12 PM »
OP : Yes yes, we all know about the placebo effect. Congrats on finding that... :P

The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

On the amputee thing, I thought I would adress that right away. Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required. He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that. This is also why it is written :

Hebrews 11:1 Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old. 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. 4 By trusting, Hevel offered a greater sacrifice than Kayin; because of this, he was attested as righteous, with God giving him this testimony on the ground of his gifts. Through having trusted, he still continues to speak, even though he is dead. 5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out. 7 By trusting, Noach, after receiving divine warning about things as yet unseen, was filled with holy fear and built an ark to save his household. Through this trusting, he put the world under condemnation and received the righteousness that comes from trusting. 8 By trusting, Avraham obeyed, after being called to go out to a place which God would give him as a possession; indeed, he went out without knowing where he was going. 9 By trusting, he lived as a temporary resident in the Land of the promise, as if it were not his, staying in tents with Yitz’chak and Ya‘akov, who were to receive what was promised along with him. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with permanent foundations, of which the architect and builder is God. 11 By trusting, he received potency to father a child, even when he was past the age for it, as was Sarah herself; because he regarded the One who had made the promise as trustworthy. 12 Therefore this one man, who was virtually dead, fathered descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and as countless as the grains of the sand on the seashore.

& also :

17 By trusting, Avraham, when he was put to the test, offered up Yitz’chak as a sacrifice. Yes, he offered up his only son, he who had received the promises, 18 to whom it had been said, “What is called your ‘seed’ will be in Yitz’chak.” 19 For he had concluded that God could even raise people from the dead! And, figuratively speaking, he did so receive him. 20 By trusting, Yitz’chak in his blessings over Ya‘akov and Esav made reference to events yet to come. 21 By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer. 22 By trusting, Yosef, near the end of his life, remembered about the Exodus of the people of Isra’el and gave instructions about what to do with his bones. 23 By trusting, the parents of Moshe hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they weren’t afraid of the king’s decree. 24 By trusting, Moshe, after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose being mistreated along with God’s people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. 26 He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. 27 By trusting, he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered as one who sees the unseen. 28 By trusting, he obeyed the requirements for the Pesach, including the smearing of the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Isra’el. 29 By trusting, they walked through the Red Sea as through dry land; when the Egyptians tried to do it, the sea swallowed them up. 30 By trusting, the walls of Yericho fell down — after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By trusting, Rachav the prostitute welcomed the spies and therefore did not die along with those who were disobedient.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

I will introduce myself as soon as the mods let me create my own thread. I think every new person has to post at least 3 satisfactory posts beforehand...

Blessings
the real question is "who gives a fuck?"

Offline Aaron123

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »
The real question is, what if the placebo effect is in fact faith(at work)? What if Yehovah had purposefully provided the ability for a person's brain to be able to cure a physical problem by simply thinking he/she was healed? Food for thought...

You'd need to explain how we'd distinguish this from something that the body/mind does on its own.


Quote
Let's put the title of this forum to rest shall we?... Here's the thing. If God healed amputees, then no faith would be required.


You make this sound like a bad thing.  Time and again, I've seen this "but then no more faith argument".  Time and again, nobody has ever been able to explain why this would be a bad thing.


Quote
He only cures internal diseases because nobody can completely & absolutely verify that it was The LORD healing that.


God does stuff that are completely indistinguishable from stuff that happens anyway.  How convenient.  Seriously, do you ever stop to think that perhaps you're just applying magical thinking?  If something doesn't need god to happen, that probably means god didn't make it happen.


Quote
This is also why it is written :

Wall of text.  I stopped reading at this point.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2012, 11:26:05 PM »
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might

Sorry.  Every xian I have spoken with says their faith is not blind faith.  And then they go on to describe their faith in the exact terms as the blind variety.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2012, 11:29:46 PM »
It must be blind faith with a seeing eye bible.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2012, 02:40:43 AM »
Healing is built into out bodies by God so, how it is activated isn't really the issue.

The question, I think is funny is this, why ask God to heal when Jesus told believers to heal?

Mat_10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock.  The central question of this website comes from a fallacy, that most Christians, unfortunately, believe and agnostics / atheists seize upon, God does NOT initiate healing, WE DO.  I could get into the silliness of Calvinism, but much of what I read here is your opposition to Calvinism, not any actual true Christian doctrine. Jesus was the SON OF MAN, so he was a man (If you care to acknowledge his existence).  But as a man, he NEVER prayed and ask GOD to heal anyone HE (Jesus) healed them as a man knowing how to use the power he was given.  And, to lay this to rest, he did heal the maimed (missing body parts, amputees, or whatever you want to call them)

Mat_15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

I can expound much further on this, if you like, but the concept of asking God to heal isn't scriptural, nor is it Christian, WE are to heal. If you are following my logic, I would be glad to explain healing, faith healing, etc, but I find this supposedly impossible question a lesson in ignorance.  Why? It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God. Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?
Christian: No, there is need to pray for God to heal, let's use the power God put in us to heal this amputee
Atheist: blah, blah, blah
Christian: Yada,Yada, Yada, Yada

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point. Once again, the mechanics of HOW to get him (the amputee) healed via the supernatural power of God that rests in us is up for debate, but you truly misunderstand why GOD became a man in the first place.  You simply don't understand Christianity at the core. If God had permission to do everything he wanted to do in the first place, why go through the trouble of becoming a man? You simply don't know God, nor do you know who is really in charge of this earth.

Psa 115:16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

What an absolutely perfect (perfectly absurd!) way to make your religion (and your theology) immune from all criticism, refutation, and falsification! What you have demonstrated here is exactly what nearly all professing Christians (especially you apologists) try to do - that is...SPIN and rationalize the lack of "greater works" you are supposed to be doing. Please open your bible and read Mark 16, John 14, and 1 Cor 2 (among others). Jesus clearly (supposedly) stated that IF you are his follower then you WILL do greater works than he supposedly did. Where is your moved mountain? Actually, screw the mountain. Where is your moved continent!? Where is your cleared out hospital? And in the spirit of this forum...Where is your healed amputee!

Your rant above sounds like you started reading William Lane Craig and bought it hook, line, and sinker. "Well guys, if I can't do a miracle then it's not God's fault. It's mine." WOW. The astrologists, Hindu Yogi healers, alien abduction proclaimers, and new age mystics try this same kind of goal post shifting. It doesn't work for them and it doesn't work for you. I would ask you to actually be honest about why you believe what you do, but that might be asking too much, as it would likely require you to give up such absurdities.

Mark 16 -  16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

John 14:12 - I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

I Corinthians 2 - 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.a 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

Second, your assertion that it is not God who does the healing, but you (the believer), is yet another pathetic attempt at obfuscation.

Psalm 103:2-3 says, “Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits – who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases.

John 14 - 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


Jesus "healed them" but "not God"? According to your own book (which violently contradicts you AND itself) Jesus IS God. So Yahweh God came down in human form and healed them (supposedly), AND he said HE would be doing the healing! I'm sorry, but this attempt to avoid the simple fact that your belief system is in conflict, and unjustified, just doesn't work.   

Lastly, regarding Calvanism...HA! I will let you debate Matt Slick over that one. You're bible is clearly self-contradictory when it comes to that subject. No, we are not battling Calvanism. We are battling your false dogmas and theologies.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 02:46:48 AM by median »
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Offline median

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2012, 03:26:38 AM »
This guy over here is misquoting scripture he has no clue how to interpret. Another guy is upset I touched on the sacred cow of evolution. General Ad hominem attacks.  I was expecting a bit more from this forum, but oh well.

I have to bring my point to even a lower level, just to get you to understand why the question of  God not healing the Iraqi war veteran amputee is such a silly question.  At a root level, IF, just IF, there was a being with enough power to create 300 sextillion stars WHY would that omnipotent (Almighty) being respect the wishes of his own creation?  Why would he even ALLOW you to have a single thought contrary to his wishes?  IF this being existed and he allowed you to have a single thought, a single glance of the eye contrary to his will then he by definition restrains HIMSELF when dealing with you.  IF this being did exist he would have the INFINITE power to make sure you did everything EXACTLY as he wanted.    Unless…. He doesn’t want to control your actions.

My supposition is that God is Almighty (Omnipotent, or whatever term floats your boat) but has decided to A) Share a portion of his power with us  B) Respect our use of said power.  So that then begs the question, why? Well apparently, he wanted someone like him.  I’m not going to quote a lot of scripture because from reading the posts you generally lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture, so I’m going to stick with the realm of philosophy & nature, it will be easier for you to follow.   

The entire site is based on this general error, “If God were real, he would prove it by healing amputees, or moving pencils, something I (the atheist) can see and ‘prove’ Since I (the atheist) challenged him to do it, and he didn’t, he doesn’t exist.”    Here is the basis of your error (one of many)  Just because a being is Omnipotent doesn’t mean that that same being doesn’t operate with respect.  None of you respect my opinion, but I still have it, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, I have the right, to be wrong, if I am wrong, right?  :)

Ask yourself WHY would an Almighty being ALLOW you the right to be wrong? What RULES has HE HIMSELF set forth that he uses? Is it even POSSIBLE for a person to be Unlimited in Power but restrained in the exercise of the same said Power?  I already said before, Jesus healed amputees (the maimed, go read my first post) by definition, healing them all (the crowds) means, healing them ALL.   This SAME Jesus went to his own home town and COULD NOT (not WOULD) do any great miracles because of THEIR UNBELIEF.  (Mark 6:5 / Matthew 13:58 Google it) WHY? WHY? WHY? Does God have rules he lives by? Should an Almighty being live by his own rules?

The POWER to heal is available to every believer. If the said believer doesn’t believe in that power, or doesn’t know how to use that power, why would you fault God?  You mock the faith healers, and some are frauds, but some simply are being obedient and TRYING to do what Jesus did with some degree of success.  Sometimes legitimate people fail, but that comes from ignorance NOT GOD.

Once again, IF there is an Almighty being, you have to ask yourself WHY would he NEED to become a man. Why not just FORCE HIS WILL UPON EVERYONE? Your premise argument assumes God would over-run the will of a man to heal him and it also assumes if the believer (Christian) doesn’t know how to use the Gift of healing, God should snatch it from his hands and do it for him.  I just don’t see a God who devalues mankind, I see a God who values your opinion (even if it is wrong) values you and felt that it would be better to die on a cross than to be without you

Wow, there is some really "meaty", yet still 100% wrong, stuff here!

Paragraph 1 (God's will/control) - Do you not believe God is in complete control (i.e. - sovereign?) over his creation? Is there ANYTHING (anything at all) that happens AGAINST (or outside) your Yahweh's ultimate "plan"?? The funny part about this statement is the big "IF" but I'd like to see how you attempt to reconcile this most glaring problem of divine determinism.

It's The Grand Cosmic Kim Jong Il, who has a grand will, but still lets you work in his rock quarry for soup and bread, only to meet the very end he intended and setup from the start.

Paragraph 2 (Omnipotence) - It's hilarious how condescending you are this early in the game. We "lack the ability to correctly interpret scripture"?? HA! This is what the Muslims say too. NOPE. FAIL. This is 100% Ad Hominem. Look at you, the pot calling the kettle black! Please see "hypocrisy" in the dictionary. Assuming your interpretation of the bible will get you nowhere here.

Paragraph 3 (General Error of WWGHAF?) - This is a Straw Man fallacy. No one has stated this. You are deliberately misrepresenting the position of those who disagree with you. WOW. You need to demonstrate how you know this "omnipotent being" exists before your following premises can be taken seriously.

Paragraph 4 (God's rules?) - You keep asking questions as if we accept your holy book as authoritative on any subject. You do know that we don't, right? So asking questions like this is quite absurd. I don't ask your "Why?" questions. I ask HOW DO YOU KNOW? questions - such as, "How do you know these passages should be taken as authoritative or literally true, at all?

Paragraph 5 (Power to heal?) - I can smell the SPIN coming from miles away. "Oh, I have the power to heal but I just can't access it yet. I'm not perfected yet. It's just not there yet." I don't disagree that some believers are being "obedient" to what they think is true. The question is why they think it's true (in spite of lots of evidence to the contrary). Answer? DELUSION...

Paragraph 6 (Why God became man?) - He didn't! But if I was thinking along your lines I wouldn't be asking your question. I'd be saying, "Why not just forgive everyone and divinely teach them the 'right' way?" Your questions are stemming from your presupposition (your assumption that the bible is the infallible word of Yahweh). That is your first and biggest mistake.

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Offline dloubet

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2012, 03:05:23 AM »
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

But if you convince us of the existence of the god with what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument, then we will believe through evidence and logical argument, and not faith. If we have evidence, we do not need faith to believe. And once we actually have belief through evidence, we cannot then ever resort to faith in order to believe. You would have forever tainted our belief with evidence and logic. You would condemn us to being the kind of believers you insist the god does not want.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2012, 03:58:06 AM »
The only thing I've learned so far from reading this thread is that "Straw Man Argument" means "one that I can't adequately refute".

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2012, 05:36:30 AM »
The 'no faith' argument doesn't really work. Why does God need us to have faith to believe in his existence rather than just confirm his own existence and let us decide whether or not we'll worship him, because if he's giving us the freedom of choice to worship or not worship him, then we need to know if he really does exist. There's a whole number of people in situations where they could never have faith in bible God, either because they simply cannot believe what they do not know or because they belong to a different faith altogether. For those of another faith, there's nothing that would suggest that they're wrong and Christianity is right and they've completely missed the opportunity to have a relationship with the 'right' God, heck that could play with their chances of getting into heaven. Heck, these non-believers really haven't got the choice to follow this God because they don't believe that he exists.

But if that God is so adamant to have us uncertain about his existence, then healing amputees wouldn't change that. Because if a Priest, a Rabbi, a Sheikh, a Shaman, a Guru, a Buddhist Monk and various other religious figures could heal somebody's leg then we can't determine that the God of the bible did it...or in the case of Buddhism, that a god even did it (as Buddhism doesn't have any gods).

Though the point of this site is not about faith healing, the question "Why Won't God Heal Amputees" is less to do with the power of God but more to do with what he promises in the bible. Look on the main website and it'll show you which parts to the bible we're talking about, it's about the nature of prayer. In essence, if believers ask, they shall receive, but all that ever seems to be received are things that could have occur without divine intervention and the rate of success seems remarkably low...so low you could just say it's coincidence, because coincidences happen. If God is adamant on us being uncertain of His existence, then why does he promise us that prayer will work? Of course, it doesn't, leaving me to assume that the bible isn't exactly being truthful.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2012, 08:59:24 AM »
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2012, 09:07:13 AM »
SHIN KAIRI said:
Quote
Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Not blind faith, but intelligent faith, rational faith, "partially blind" faith you might say...

But if you convince us of the existence of the god with what you obviously consider evidence and logical argument, then we will believe through evidence and logical argument, and not faith. If we have evidence, we do not need faith to believe. And once we actually have belief through evidence, we cannot then ever resort to faith in order to believe. You would have forever tainted our belief with evidence and logic. You would condemn us to being the kind of believers you insist the god does not want.
Faith implies knowledge. If there is absolutely no knowledge, there than can be no faith. There is no such thing as total blind faith.

Only partial blind faith exists.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2012, 12:44:52 PM »
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.

Shin, wouldn't a perfect plan created by a perfect individual have a 100% success rate?  Why do I, after believing it for the first 32 years of my life, now think its utter horseshit and an embarrassment that I believed for so long?
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »
^ Therefore, there must be a plan. A perfect plan. The plan of the ages. To all the questions one can't answer, the answer is : "Yehovah has a plan". He doesn't lose. So whatever the end result, it's gonna be a good one, or the best possible one.

That doesn't really answer anything.

If anything it suggests the complete opposite for me. God will only perform miracles that would occur naturally, or could be the result of a placebo effect or could be replicated in an bad stage display (the old one leg shorter than the other trick, yes and magicians can saw people in half!).

Or there's the prayer, where God will only answer prayers at a rate so low you could suggest it's chance and the prayers he does answer could have happened without his intervention. Despite the fact in the bible He promises prayer works differently.

Quote from: Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!


Quote from: Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Quote from: Matthew 21:21
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Quote from: Matthew 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Quote from: John 14
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

I can deduct from this, if you're a believer and ask from God and you shall receive it and if you believe you have received something then you have received it and if you have faith then you can instruct a mountain to move and nothing will be impossible to you.


And yet I see so many people profess to be true believers to be truly faithful and yet I have never seen them do anything extraordinary with their connection to the divine. Our challenge on this site is for any such believers to use their power to heal amputees. If faith healers are genuine faith healers and their miracles are not cons, then surely they could do much more impressive things with their faith, they could send their prayers to God and achieve great things...but they don't.

To me that suggests, either that the faithful are not willing, the bible is wrong or God simply does not exist and people just think He does and fall for these cons.

None of this suggests a divine plan, because surely if there's a divine plan and if affects how prayers are answered, Jesus would have taken special care to not make empty promises.

No, what this suggests to me, answers like "it's a part of God's plan" are attempts to rationalise why things don't go the way they ought, rather than accept how things are. Perhaps I'd accept that as an answer if things weren't suggesting the opposite.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2012, 06:02:43 PM »
^ Well... I have to admit that your post is a very good one. The only thing I can say is that the 144.000 of Revelation(which are already in the earth) will be soon be able to perform such miracles as the mountain thing. Let's w8 & see.
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 09:43:14 PM »
So.... soon.... we will have zombies roaming the earth who have been dead for between thousands and dozens of years performing miracles that should be done "with the faith of a mustard seed"?  Tossing mountains around and what not?  Honestly Shin.... how do you get this shit?  -And if you quote some internet douchebag I will e-punch you in the face!  ;)
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2012, 04:06:35 AM »
Where's Simon Pegg when you need him?

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2012, 10:02:50 AM »
So.... soon.... we will have zombies roaming the earth who have been dead for between thousands and dozens of years
No... they are not dead. They are all alive. They are all from this last generation.

performing miracles that should be done "with the faith of a mustard seed"?  Tossing mountains around and what not? 
Yes.

Honestly Shin.... how do you get this shit?
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