Author Topic: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)  (Read 18697 times)

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Offline Lectus

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How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« on: September 07, 2012, 10:32:58 AM »
Well, here's my opinion of it:

Faith healing can sometimes work.

Wait. Did I just say that? Did I become delusional? No. I'll explain.

It can work through the power of the mind. Not some mysterious supernatural deity.

If the person believes strong enough that he's healed, then he is. Or at least he believes he's healed, which has the same effect of shifting his reality.

It's also how placebo can sometimes heal people. (But it still sucks compared to real medicine when compared side by side)

Another example of the mind in action is when patients quit smoking with hypnotherapy.

A person who stops smoking after prayer is no different than that. Prayer is basically autosuggestion.

This also explains why God doesn't heal amputees. Because being amputee is a PHYSICAL condition, not a PSYCHOLOGICAL one. The mind just won't grow another arm or leg. Never going to happen.

So, praying to a tree has the same effect if you really believe it.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 10:38:46 AM »
I don't think that's quite how it works.

A person can mentally overcome some effects of injuries or sickness through discipline and belief.  They can even promote natural healing that would have happened anyway.  But no amount of belief will make a wound just go away, or make pain just go away.

Offline Lectus

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 11:07:39 AM »
There are several cases of faith healing:

CASE 1:

The person prays and use medicine side by side. Medicine heals him. So he says God healed him. The poor doctor with years of study has no credit.

CASE 2:

The person prays and the disease goes away by itself. The person says it was God.
Our bodies will heal some diseases with our immune system if given enough rest, food and time.

CASE 3:

The person's disease was psychological. By using prayer he shifts how his mind sees the world and thus the mental condition is gone. He praises God.

CASE 4:

Hypnotherapy has being proven by science that it can alleviate pain: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22917107
Prayer works in similar way. No supernatural phenomena though. Just the mind working.

CASE 5:

The preacher creates illusion of miracles by hiring actors.

CASE 6:

The person pretends to have a disease just to enjoy the status of going to the altar to praise God.
Being special to God is a nice ego boost.

* God wasn't involved in any of these cases.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:10:21 AM by Lectus »
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 11:33:08 AM »
Preacher uses trickery to give the person the illusion of healing.

Like the many people evidently limping around all their lives with legs of different lengths, undiagnosed by any doctor and unnoticed by parents and friends. But instantly diagnosed by this preacher-- do you have back pain? Of course, you do, because your legs are different lengths! I prescribe a built up shoe. No, I changed my mind, let me stretch the shorter leg out. Hallelujah, Jesus has healed your leg!

You will never have back pain again. Until you do. Because of evolution, everyone has back pain and nobody has different length legs that they never noticed, and nobody can magically stretch out a messed up leg and we never get doctors or x-rays to verify anything, because Jesus doesn't work that way....uh oh, did I say that out loud?



This horrible guy gives dreadlocks a bad name. And he uses his daughter in his scam! "Jesus is amazing, he loves you so much, man..." that's why he made your swollen knee better. Swollen knees-- god gets right on it, top of his list. But parents praying frantically over their babies dying of starvation in Darfur, not so much. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Garja

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 12:11:28 PM »
Just an aside. Having legs slightly different lengths is a motherf$&@er
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline BornAgainAtheist

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 04:55:24 PM »
And then there's Todd Bentley...

My hair is a bird.  Your argument is invalid.

Offline Garja

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 08:29:09 PM »
What the FUCK did I just watch?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Lectus

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 07:50:08 AM »
LOL

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

I wonder how people can believe in this crap.
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Offline bgb

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 02:14:47 PM »
Its a sad testament to the delusions created in a mind.  Todd should be hung on a cross and see what happens. BAM!
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 02:11:16 PM »
That Todd Bentley stuff is so typical. We have seen so many of these "healers" obviously manipulating people psychologically using emotion and even what looks like sexual excitement.

Take a big group of repressed, frustrated young people who have been told that sex is bad and not even to masturbate. Get them all revved up with music and emotional appeals, just like at a rock concert. And then let the endorphins take over. 

The preacher is grabbing and holding the young people against him, everyone is shaking, crying, screaming, fainting. What black church  people call "falling out". Is that the holy spirit or emotional/sexual release?
And then he is actually yelling, "Do it, Jesus!" The big perv. &)

Don't these people realize that you feel uplifted and elated after any kind of experience like this, a fun dance party, a good action movie, a really fantastic concert, a trip to a wonderful restaurant, playing sports, having sex, using drugs? That is why young people do this stuff!

Look at 1960's footage of early fans of the Beatles and see the same thing going on. Girls hysterical, crying, fainting from the excitement and being carried off by police.



Imagine if the Beatles had told sick girls that they could heal illness in the name of Jesus with one kiss. I'll bet there would have been a raft of miraculous "Beatle healings"-- and the religious types would not have been burning their records.  They might have started a new cult and made more money that way...

How come ordinary Christians can't heal people like this? Remove the emotional arousal and excitement of being in the presence of a celebrity like Todd Bentley, would there be any "healing"? Where is the medical pre-exam and follow-up? If the healing is real, wouldn't they want to be able to present that evidence of god's power?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lectus

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »
Where is the medical pre-exam and follow-up? If the healing is real, wouldn't they want to be able to present that evidence of god's power?

There are churches that show the pre-exam and follow-up.

But I bet the crowd themselves fabricate/fake the exams so they can show it up there in the altar.

That's how deluded they are. They WANT to keep the cult alive to validate their beliefs.
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Offline Garja

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 04:08:09 PM »
^ That's something I have found disturbing about this topic and parallel subjects of faith.  The fact that clergy and parishioners alike seem willing to... alter facts to their liking does not seem discernibly different from lying.  Does anyone know if the Bible, or other christian sources endorse being dishonest about their god to make him seem better?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Big V

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »
Healing is built into out bodies by God so, how it is activated isn't really the issue.

The question, I think is funny is this, why ask God to heal when Jesus told believers to heal?

Mat_10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock. 

The central question of this website comes from a fallacy, that most Christians, unfortunately, believe and agnostics / atheists seize upon, God does NOT initiate healing, WE DO.  I could get into the silliness of Calvinism, but much of what I read here is your opposition to Calvinism, not any actual true Christian doctrine.

Jesus was the SON OF MAN, so he was a man (If you care to acknowledge his existence).  But as a man, he NEVER prayed and ask GOD to heal anyone HE (Jesus) healed them as a man knowing how to use the power he was given. 

And, to lay this to rest, he did heal the maimed (missing body parts, amputees, or whatever you want to call them)

Mat_15:30  And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

I can expound much further on this, if you like, but the concept of asking God to heal isn't scriptural, nor is it Christian, WE are to heal.

If you are following my logic, I would be glad to explain healing, faith healing, etc, but I find this supposedly impossible question a lesson in ignorance.  Why? It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God.

Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?
Christian: No, there is need to pray for God to heal, let's use the power God put in us to heal this amputee
Atheist: blah, blah, blah
Christian: Yada,Yada, Yada, Yada

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point.

Once again, the mechanics of HOW to get him (the amputee) healed via the supernatural power of God that rests in us is up for debate, but you truly misunderstand why GOD became a man in the first place.  You simply don't understand Christianity at the core.

If God had permission to do everything he wanted to do in the first place, why go through the trouble of becoming a man? You simply don't know God, nor do you know who is really in charge of this earth.

Psa 115:16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 09:40:31 PM »
That used up a lot of bandwidth, but there still aren't any Iraq war vets or Afghani children growing back the arms and legs that got blown off, are there? No healing of Down's syndrome or dementia or spinal cord paralysis or any other unambiguous conditions either. But people still manage to supposedly heal pneumonia and skin rashes-- you know, things that sometimes get better anyway?

Seems like your god is a shifty shyster lawyer, going, "See? You didn't ask the right way. You don't know how to use the power, do you? And I'm not going to help you, either. Ha ha ha."

Cue Mr. Diety bit. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Nam

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 10:20:45 PM »
Big V,

How about: Ask and you shall receive.?

Matthew: 7:7 and 21:22
Luke 11:9

Oh noes, I think I have read the bibles. What does this mean?!?!

I do not think "we" are ignorant as you make us out to be. Some of us are former Christians. I, myself, am a former Southern Baptist.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:24:13 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 10:55:35 PM »
As a matter of fact, for those of you like research, you can't find a SINGLE instance in the New Testament (I know you don't read it, but you can Google it) where ANY New Testament believers are directed to ASK GOD to heal anyone.  gasp. shock.

It isn't scriptural nor Christian, to pray and ASK God to heal, you can't find any examples of it in the New Testament.  Healing lies on shoulders of the believer, not God.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Note that it says all things. There is no specific restriction on praying for limbs to regrow so if a believing Christian prays for an amputee’s limb to regrow, it will happen—according to this scripture. Though, as we know, it hasn’t ever happened no matter how many people have prayed for amputees’ limbs to regrow.

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So, to sum up my points.

Atheist: Well, let's pray and ask God to heal this amputee
Christian: Why don't we heal him, that's what Jesus told us to do, not just pray for him.
Atheist:  You don't want to pray for God to heal this amputee?

I don't know, I thought the above discourse sounded funny in my head, but you get the point.

It sounds strange because that isn’t what an atheist would say. After the Christian evades the request to demonstrate that prayer will heal amputees, an atheist like me would ask: “Are you admitting that prayer doesn’t work?” Well, are you?

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 11:19:34 PM »
BigV

It isn't too surprising to hear that your god doesn't heal amputees. He can't even get two christians to agree on what the bible says, so it is unlikely that he would ever be able to regrow bone and tissue.

The title of this site (and the writings on the main page of the site) are the words of one person who is no longer involved directly with the board. So we are sort of saddled with his legacy. Not that many of us disagree with what he wrote in the first place. But those are not our words. Right now, as far as I know, there aren't any atheist sites called WhyWontGodDoSomethingOrOTherInAGenericSense.com. So we're sort of stuck with this title.

As an atheist, I know very well why the dude isn't fixing any missing extremities. He doesn't exist. Which puts the kibosh on his plans to do whatever he would, as a loving and omnipotent dude, normally do in these circumstances. According to you, that part doesn't matter much because he wouldn't do anything anyway. According to others who have argued with us, the dude fixes all sorts of things all the time, he just doesn't heal amputees for reasons A, B and or C. We hear all sorts of excuses. I assume we have heard variations along the lines of the excuses you propose. We get so many kinds and types of excuses that frankly I can't keep track of them all.

Your god healed the barrenness of Sara. No other intervention by humans or any of gods kids were required. It may not have happened often, but it has happened, as per your book. Where does that leave your argument? The one that seems to say he can't even do it.

He doesn't heal because he doesn't exist. Millions of people say "Thank god" to a wide variety of good outcomes, be they pulled slivers or survival in a car wreck or their team winning a big game. If the dude can't or doesn't do much anyway, perhaps you should get out there and inform those who you at least agree with you a little bit about your christian beliefs. I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I for one would love to hear the phrase "Thank god" disappear from our lexicon. Any help you can give towards that end would be appreciated.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Quesi

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Big V. 

I look forward to hearing more about your beliefs, and if you want to stick around, you might find some interesting discussions here. 

So the NT God doesn't heal.  That is an interesting observation.  I am not as familiar with the NT as you are, so I will take your word for it. 

But the OT God does heal.  So you are saying that God sent Jesus here to do the stuff the God (the father?) used to do, but decided not to do anymore? 

The OT God also killed.  A lot.  Floods, first born kids, locusts, Canaanites, burning down cities.  But after Jesus got here, he seemed to have gotten a little slack about that as well. 

The OT God also seemed to be ok with polygamy and extramarital liaisons.  I have no idea how Jesus felt about that stuff, but I always shake my head when Christians talk about biblical marriage.  But I digress.

Why is your OT God so different from your Jesus God?

Offline Big V

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 03:16:04 AM »
Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.

Let's just go back to logic. If I have a house with 30 rooms and I give 1 room to my kids and tell them, hey this is your room, you can do what you want in this room, no adults allowed.  If my kids said, "Dad, come here and move this pencil from the table to the couch for me"  Well, I have a problem, I'm not a kid. Do I become a liar to move the pencil? Well, if I could become a kid I could move the pencil OR if by some power, I could operate in my kids body, I could then move the pencil. Either way, it isn't my room. I don't just do whatever I want in the room, if I am an honest person.

JESUS healed them all (over a dozen different occasions) His disciples HEALED. Peter, Paul, Philip, etc they ALL HEALED, as men. 

THEY never asked GOD to heal, they (men) healed them.   You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God. 

Follow me for a split second. God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us.   God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.

If you truly wanted (which apparently you don't) to see the Iraqi war veteran amputee healed, YOU would have to COOPERATE with God and get the same wisdom and power operating in JESUS operating in you to see that miracle accomplished.

As far as God being different in the New vs OLD Testament, that is another topic, you don't even have a basic understanding of who God is, so I can't digress, but I will say this, if you have seen HOW Jesus operates, you have actually seen the God of the Old Testament.





Offline Graybeard

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 05:17:36 AM »
Wow, the straw man argument exists in force on this site, typical, because the site is based on a single premise straw man argument, you simply twist a person's position and run with it, but that's cool.
There is no strawman here, simply amazement at your statements so far.

If you are suggesting that there is no need for any medical personel, then I have to tell you that you are a danger to others.

If you are saying that medical knowledge is a "gift from God", I will have to ask you how you know this to be so, other than from biblical statements. There are enough prisoners who's excuse has been "God told me to kill them." (And killing people is one of God's pastimes.)

Quote
Let's just go back to logic. If I have a house with 30 rooms and I give 1 room to my kids and tell them, hey this is your room, you can do what you want in this room, no adults allowed.  If my kids said, "Dad, come here and move this pencil from the table to the couch for me"  Well, I have a problem, I'm not a kid. Do I become a liar to move the pencil? Well, if I could become a kid I could move the pencil OR if by some power, I could operate in my kids body, I could then move the pencil. Either way, it isn't my room. I don't just do whatever I want in the room, if I am an honest person.
You do not make yourself a liar, you make yourself a person who made a statement without thinking it through. What if the kid were injured on the floor - would you stay out?

You have a disturbing and unthinking attitude; a rigidity of thought that I last encountered in novels of the 19th century; your thought and knowledge seems mired in the past. What sort of education did you have?

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JESUS healed them all (over a dozen different occasions) His disciples HEALED. Peter, Paul, Philip, etc they ALL HEALED, as men. 
THEY never asked GOD to heal, they (men) healed them.   You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God.
And thus there has never, in all history, been an amputee who has been without that fault - whatever it is. However, the Bible records instances of "miraculous healing" that were done in the presence of the alleged Jesus - so what you are saying is that Jesus, for the last ~2000 years has done nothing.

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Follow me for a split second.
I AM following you, but only because I could not possibly find my way back. 
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God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us. God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.
No. No. No. It is only a recent thought that "God lives in another dimension" - we never found Jesus saying this. We never found the Church saying this. We only found apologists saying this when other dimensions were postulated. We therefore see that it is a simple deception pulled out of thin air to prevent people losing their faith.

The trouble is, if you use the word "dimension" in the sense you intend, then a being in another dimension (and there would have to be more than one "dimension" in his world,) could not influence anything in our dimensions, because if he could, we could detect and identify him... and we can't.

Let me put it this way. I tell you to "go and get one of the boxes. The one that is 4 foot by 3 foot." You go to the warehouse but there are many 4 foot by 3 foot boxes. some are  2 foot deep, some are 3foot deep, etc. You cannot obey my order. You see one dimension does not affect other dimensions.

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If you truly wanted (which apparently you don't) to see the Iraqi war veteran amputee healed, YOU would have to COOPERATE with God and get the same wisdom and power operating in JESUS operating in you to see that miracle accomplished.
But if we want to cure someone of leprosy, and we can do, we have already cooperated, haven't we? So what's this trouble with amputees?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

3sigma

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 06:03:09 AM »
You don't ASK GOD to do something he has already given you the power to do. If the Iraqi war veteran amputee doesn't get healed, the fault actually lies with the person not with God.

So your response to the question of why your god won’t heal amputees is to blame the victim. How Christian of you. Please tell us exactly how Iraq War veterans are at fault when they fail to regrow limbs blown off by IEDs?

Have people been given the power to regrow limbs? The conspicuous absence of regrown limbs strongly suggests they haven’t. So by your logic—and Matthew 21:22—believing Christians are encouraged to pray for their god to do it.

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Follow me for a split second. God lives in another dimension, we live in the physical dimension, for God to operate in the Physical dimension he needs us.   God operates in this physical dimension by COOPERATING with a person in the physical realm that KNOWS HOW to use HIS POWER to get things done.

I don’t believe you. Could you please establish the truth or validity of your claims that your god lives, that it is in another dimension and that it operates in this physical dimension? Please demonstrate to us that you are telling us the truth. If you cannot show us that any of this is true then why should we believe anything you say? Why shouldn’t we simply dismiss this as childish nonsense?

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As far as God being different in the New vs OLD Testament, that is another topic, you don't even have a basic understanding of who God is, so I can't digress, but I will say this, if you have seen HOW Jesus operates, you have actually seen the God of the Old Testament.

By all means, please tell us what your god is. Please give us a factual description of your god. You can start by answering this question: is your god actually real or is it imaginary?

Also, I would appreciate it if you would answer my previous question that you have evaded. Are you admitting that prayer doesn’t work? Matthew 21:22 explicitly states that if a believing Christian asks for anything whatsoever in prayer, it will be received. If a believing Christian prays for amputees’ limbs to regrow, will it happen? Why not? Could it be that your god is imaginary?

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2012, 10:52:47 AM »
I laughed when Big V used the word "logic" then told a story about "This room is for kids only -- no adults allowed". Which begs the question: what if someone gets hurt? and going by their story: if the adult goes in, they are a liar: they (the kids) have to "heal themselves". Makes the adulr irresponsible. Yeah Big V says s/he deals in logic but obviously they don't.

I was going to comment part by part but, what's the point?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Big V

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2012, 11:25:00 AM »
Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point. I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.  First, there are specific reasons why the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” question is a straw man argument.  Foremost, for the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page.  So let me begin with some general points first about God.   God exists in another dimension, I call spirit. Man exists in another dimension, I call physical.  Man is a trans-dimensional being, not to be confused with trans-gender (sorry, thought that was funny as well).  So here is a general timeline of events.  God creates the physical universe, let’s say, 15 billion years ago, then forms a planet called earth, for giggles, 4.5 billion years ago, then creates man say, 70 thousand years ago.  (Now this isn’t an attack on the evolution fallacy, this is just so you can understand the “room in the house” from my earlier post.)

If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL)  This being, man, must learn to operate in the physical by accepting input from another dimension for spiritual power to be released. If man is ignorant of the spirit dimension, he is “stuck” so to speak, with only “physical dimension” power.   I just realized I had to say all this so you can get a perspective on HOW the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” is going to be healed.   

2000 years ago, this “Trojan war veteran amputee” (Yes, there is some attempt at humor there) would have been healed by Jesus or one of his disciples, not by praying and asking God.  To the degree these disciples had GOD already in them and to the degree they knew HOW to take instructions from God and release this healing power.    Once again 2000 years ago, they were not creating a “million Israeli - Arab prayer chain” and begging Yahweh to do anything.  My point is they didn’t use that approach 2000 years ago, so a person is in error to use that approach now.   That “prayer chain failure that proves God doesn’t exist” is central to this website. Many well-meaning, but ignorant Christians use that process and fail.  Jesus’ disciples are commanded that if they see the problem (the Iraqi war veteran amputee) AND IF the person is willing to receive; they (the disciple) heal them according to the power of God inside them already.  So Jesus, Paul, Peter, Ananias, etc., and other New Testament believers succeeded where you, could fail miserably, and it isn’t God to blame.

You know, God already came to the physical realm, “moved the pencil” and then left.  If he wants to move more pencils, He inhabits the BODY of a physical man (via explicit permission) , then gives  the man both wisdom and the power, “to move the pencil”  You are a trans-dimensional being, why don’t you ask God for a trip to the spirit realm for a God 101 class.  Zing.

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »
Big V

You forgot to make the kids sinners before you tossed them in the room. You gotta do your part if you're gonna ruin it for the brats.

It's a story. Created by ancients trying to meld actual wisdom with very incomplete views of reality. The concept of a god was inevitable. Multiple cultures did it. Your religious tradition included. Until christians can tell me why their "real" god is as reliant on faith and belief as all the non-existent gods of other religions, I have no reason to suspect for even a second that he is any more real.

Which would explain, of course, the actual reason he doesn't heal amputees.
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Offline jetson

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2012, 11:38:06 AM »
Big V, welcome to the forum.

Please answer this simple question: do you believe that any human being has ever been healed directly by God as a result of prayer, ever?

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 11:54:27 AM »
Big V

In your last post you mentioned "well meaning but ignorant christians". Apparently we get a lot of them around here and perhaps our initial responses to your posts are based on our past experience with such people.

Please tell us how to tell the difference and explain as precisely as you can why you are not ignorant like most of the others we have encountered here. And in real life. I for one have never had a christian say "And now, let us not pray".

I think you're the only one that has found a way to justify the inefficacy of prayer. Unless you're part of an organized religious group. If so, let us know the name of it. That would really help.

And please don't say Mormon. We're having trouble with that one right now.  ;D
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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 12:08:25 PM »
Wow, o.k. The replies are all over the place and on different topics, but let me attempt to stay on point.

How so?
 
Quote
I see I’m going to have to be here for a while.

Oh, purty please?

Quote
First, there are specific reasons why the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” question is a straw man argument.

It's your argument.

Quote
Foremost, for the sake of time, just Google “Straw Man Argument” so we can get on the same page.

We know what it means, the question is: do you?

Quote
So let me begin with some general points first about God.   God exists in another dimension,

What evidence do you have that "God" exists, at all? And, if it exists in another "dimension" how do you know if it's in another dimension since, as you say: it's separate from our physical world? Also, going by what Graybeard said: how come this "dimensional theory" has only recently come into fruition?

Quote
I call spirit. Man exists in another dimension, I call physical.

Yeah: you call. Not the Bible. Or Jesus, or Biblegod. Just you, and those of your ilk.

Quote
Man is a trans-dimensional being, not to be confused with trans-gender (sorry, thought that was funny as well).  So here is a general timeline of events.  God creates the physical universe, let’s say, 15 billion years ago, then forms a planet called earth, for giggles, 4.5 billion years ago, then creates man say, 70 thousand years ago.  (Now this isn’t an attack on the evolution fallacy, this is just so you can understand the “room in the house” from my earlier post.)

How could this be if everything is only 6,000 years old? Oh, so we will better understand it. Gotcha.

Please...

Quote
If you have followed this narrative (even if you don’t believe it) then we have an entire dimension for physical beings, NOT for spiritual beings and man being the ONLY hybrid creature. (100% Physical AND 100% SPIRITUAL)

Evidence?

Quote
This being, man, must learn to operate in the physical by accepting input from another dimension for spiritual power to be released. If man is ignorant of the spirit dimension, he is “stuck” so to speak, with only “physical dimension” power.   I just realized I had to say all this so you can get a perspective on HOW the “Iraqi war veteran amputee” is going to be healed.

Evidence?
   
Quote
2000 years ago, this “Trojan war veteran amputee” (Yes, there is some attempt at humor there) would have been healed by Jesus or one of his disciples, not by praying and asking God.  To the degree these disciples had GOD already in them and to the degree they knew HOW to take instructions from God and release this healing power.    Once again 2000 years ago, they were not creating a “million Israeli - Arab prayer chain” and begging Yahweh to do anything.  My point is they didn’t use that approach 2000 years ago, so a person is in error to use that approach now.   That “prayer chain failure that proves God doesn’t exist” is central to this website.

You still have yet to answer my question (and anothers) about Matthew 7:7, 21:22 and Luke 11:9 which equally state, "If you ask[1] you shall receive.". When are you going to stop dodging 2 of us who posed that?

Quote
Many well-meaning, but ignorant Christians use that process and fail.  Jesus’ disciples are commanded that if they see the problem (the Iraqi war veteran amputee) AND IF the person is willing to receive; they (the disciple) heal them according to the power of God inside them already.  So Jesus, Paul, Peter, Ananias, etc., and other New Testament believers succeeded where you, could fail miserably, and it isn’t God to blame.

And, why aren't there anyone today with such healing power? Why only 2,000 years ago?

Quote
You know, God already came to the physical realm, “moved the pencil” and then left.  If he wants to move more pencils, He inhabits the BODY of a physical man (via explicit permission) , then gives  the man both wisdom and the power, “to move the pencil”  You are a trans-dimensional being, why don’t you ask God for a trip to the spirit realm for a God 101 class.  Zing.

Evidence?

-Nam
 1. pray
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 12:13:40 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline JeffPT

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 12:25:17 PM »
Big V. 

Let me try to understand you.  Basically, what you're saying is that everyone in today's world is doing it wrong, and that's why nobody receives their arms or legs back, correct?  And that the people back in biblical times were 'doing it right', and that's why they were able to heal.  Am I close here?  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Let me propose a second possible solution for you.  Before I write it, however, I'd like to ask you to make a detailed breakdown of where my upcoming logical position fails in terms of what we see around us.  Can you do that for me please?  Alright... Here it is.  What if there was no God to heal amputees?  If that were true, would that satisfactorily explain why we don't see amputees grow arms and legs back?  Forget that you believe in God and approach it from a neutral position.  If it were true, and the entire universe were a naturally occurring phenomenon with no supernatural intervention, would that explain why amputees are getting arms and legs back?  It's a simple yes or no question. 

Now, you might try to argue that my explanation does not take into account the biblical accounts of healings like Jesus and Peter that you mentioned.  Rightfully so.  In and of itself, it doesn't.  But now, here is another possible explanation for that, that is fully congruent with the notion that God does not exist.  Here it is... the healings never took place, and the bible is a religious work of fiction where people lied about miraculous healings.  So if God is not real, and the bible is a work of fiction, would that not satisfactorily explain why we have no miraculous amputee healings today, and why we have writings in the bible that say healings happened 2000 years ago?  Try to back out of your God belief for just a moment and see if you can make sense of that.  All you really need to embrace is the notion that people can lie.  Can people lie? 

Your solution, while theologically sound to you, proposes an entity for which we have no evidence, and assumes that people 2000 years ago were capable of suspending the very laws of nature to provide miraculous healings because they were able to do the right incantations, movements, gyrations, potions, herbs, wording or what-have-you.  My solution does not propose an entity that we have no evidence for, embraces the reality that we see around us, and the only assumption we have to make is that people sometimes lie.  Do you really think yours makes more sense? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: How faith healing works (and why God doesn't heal amputees)
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 12:27:07 PM »
See V,
    You say:
Quote
Case in point, when Jesus walked this earth, on over dozen occasions HE HEALED THEM ALL, not God.  I am not arguing against his deity, but for a very specific reason, Jesus (God) came as a MAN using the power of God inherent in men

I believe that Jesus did also exist, as you say.  Your logic is familiar to me since I also used it for many years.  While, IMO, Jesus had good things to say about us tossing laws and politics and caring about each other, when it comes to healing, it is a different story.

The difference between you and I now is that I give evolution, science, and human study as the reason for healing - not god, not Jesus.  You give Jesus some sort of connection to god that allows Jesus to channel the knowledge necessary to heal on the spot. (like McCoy in Star Trek's "Spock's Brain") I believe you also would next say that if we had the faith that Jesus had, we could heal like that also.

 No sir.  Even christian doctors study for years to learn the latest research to use to help those that nogodsforme just mentioned, with unambiguous conditions. And another thing, "Maimed" and "amputees" are not the same.
Many of us here studied the bible for years as you do.  Don't insult us.

IMO, V, the real point of this website is to make the" very sure" of their own religion, enough "less sure," that they open their minds toward endless possibilities (some of us are agnostic atheists), and refrain from persecuting those that come to a different opinion.   We could get into whether christian's are commanded to evangelise, but that's another thread, and, of course, Christians disagree on that also.
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