Author Topic: Westboro Baptist Church  (Read 1835 times)

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Offline writerstephen

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Westboro Baptist Church
« on: September 02, 2012, 09:01:22 PM »
An open question to the theists here:

Why aren't more Christians followers of the Westboro Baptist Church? You know, the "god hates fags" folks.

You might say, "Yuck. They're disgusting and abhorrent. They protest soldiers' funerals for pete's sake. They don't represent Christianity."

But have you really read their website? They're not just a bunch of kooks. I mean, they are, but they're well-thought-out kooks. And they certainly know their scripture. They quote it at every opportunity. And they're unflinching about it: In many places, scripture points out god's hatred of various people and places, and these hateful passages are largely ignored or glossed over by mainstream christians.

Not WBC. They gleefully preach god's hatred and selective grace; they believe only the "elect" make it to heaven, and the vast majority of us burn for eternity. Their job is to preach that word. And they certainly ain't dumb: Most of them are lawyers and some have argued before the Supreme Court. They make their living arguing civil rights cases!

And as near as I can tell (i'm no scholar), their theology seems sound. Their quoted verses seem to back up their thinking, and there are plenty of them. A couple of examples:

Quote
"CRY aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." (Isaiah 58:1)

Deuteronomy 32:
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


And a telling quote from their FAQ:

Quote
What you need to hear is that God hates people, and that your chances of going to heaven are nonexistent, unless you repent. What you need to hear is a little fire and brimstone preaching, like Jesus preached. What you don't need to hear is that you're okay just the way you are, and God accepts everyone without exception. Don't listen to the money-grubbing heretic who stands at the front of your church. Listen to God. If you are one of His elect, you'll hear.

So why aren't more Christians following these, admittedly distasteful, but seemingly theologically valid, practices? Your god is a bloody tyrant. Why not preach it?


Online Emily

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 09:10:09 PM »
I've always thought the the WBC is the best[1]christian church out there. They are preaching god's word; they are following the Great Commission they were asked too do by jesus. The answer to your question is that most christians (take the number of christian in the world and subtract the number of members in the WBC) enjoy a sugar-coated version of the bible[2]and/or sugar-coated version of how they should be viewed in society.

 1. most representing of the god in the bible
 2. and sugar coated version of their savior and god. That meaning god loves everyone, blah blah blah
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:20:00 PM by Emily »
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Offline Garja

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 09:28:35 PM »
I will give them one thing.  At least they are not selective about the scripture they use.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 09:29:11 PM »
Its been my observation that people have beliefs about the world and then choose an interpretation of religion that fits it. If they're naturally nice people, they believe god is nice. If they're judgemental people, they believe god is the judgemental guy. Etc. The folks in the Westboro Baptist Church are, in my opinion, either naturally nasty, hateful people, or they were brainwashed by their family and friends to become such.

The problem with the bible is that one can find a few passages in it to support just about any opinion, and any image of god. And so they do.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Online Emily

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 09:37:09 PM »
IThe folks in the Westboro Baptist Church are, in my opinion, either naturally nasty, hateful people, or they were brainwashed by their family and friends to become such.


There is a series on youtube regarding the WBC. Here's the link to the playlist http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8BB4ED7ACC5E4763&feature=plcp
 (It's an eight part series)

it's calls The Most Hated Family In America.

From watching it some of the members do look like they are really nice people. Their beliefs sicken me. But take away the god hates fags theology they profess and they do seem like nice people.

As a bonus, watch Lauren Drain's video. She is the daughter of Stephen Drain, the webmaster of the website. Stephen Drain moved his family fron Florida to Kansas for this 'church'; Lauren has since left the family because of their hatred and brainwashing.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:39:10 PM by Emily »
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Offline writerstephen

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 10:13:29 PM »
Stephen Drain has some crazy eyes.

Its been my observation that people have beliefs about the world and then choose an interpretation of religion that fits it. If they're naturally nice people, they believe god is nice. If they're judgemental people, they believe god is the judgemental guy. Etc. The folks in the Westboro Baptist Church are, in my opinion, either naturally nasty, hateful people, or they were brainwashed by their family and friends to become such.

The problem with the bible is that one can find a few passages in it to support just about any opinion, and any image of god. And so they do.

I couldn't agree with this more.

These people are masters of indoctrination. Teach the children practically from birth, and coldly cast them out at the first question. Sure keeps the other kids in line.

Online Emily

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 08:13:36 PM »
The folks in the Westboro Baptist Church are, in my opinion, either naturally nasty, hateful people, or they were brainwashed by their family and friends to become such.

Other than the Drain Family, and those who are married into the family, the church is completely composed of those raised by Fred Phelps or one of Freddy's children. The  most vocal of the family these days is Shirley Phelps (daughter of Fred Phelps).

It is worth adding than Shirley Phelps had a child out of wedlock. GASP! Isn't that a sin too that god hates (sexually immoral. And after all, the sexual immoral cannot get into heave either 1 Corinthians 6:9)?
[1]

I cannot stand this family. I dealt with them when Flight 3407 crashed in my city of Buffalo, NY.[2] I've done my research on them all. I've spoken to Steve Drain on Twitter. There is no getting through to these people.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Phelps-Roper
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:22:42 PM by Emily »
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Offline Garja

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 08:26:00 PM »


The biggest question I have about these guys....


WHY, OH WHY, cant they be a suicide cult?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline writerstephen

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 08:33:11 PM »

The biggest question I have about these guys....


WHY, OH WHY, cant they be a suicide cult?

Oh, they make it clear they're strictly non-violent. Plus, suicide is a sin, i guess.

Online Emily

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 08:38:48 PM »
Since suicide is considered a form of murder it is a sin. Sadly when Old Man Phelps dies the church will be run by Shirley. Shirley's daughter Jael seems to be the second most vocal of the Phelps clan, so after Shirley she'll probably take the reins. Sad. Really, really sad.

But after all, the family loves the attention they get. From the news, to counter protesters, to people discussing them on internet forums. To be a suicide cult is the pussy way out of things. And they've got nothing to gain from that.
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Offline writerstephen

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 08:46:13 PM »
But after all, the family loves the attention they get. From the news, to counter protesters, to people discussing them on internet forums. To be a suicide cult is the pussy way out of things. And they've got nothing to gain from that.

Haha, yeah. Actually, i didn't intend my post to talk overmuch about them. I wanted to see if some theists would explain why they felt it was all right to gloss over those sections of the bible that deal with god's cruelty and hate.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 08:52:40 PM »
Haha, yeah. Actually, i didn't intend my post to talk overmuch about them. I wanted to see if some theists would explain why they felt it was all right to gloss over those sections of the bible that deal with god's cruelty and hate.

I know. For me, when it comes to the WBC I am like a Piranha. I've jump on the opportunity to talk about them.

You question is probably too much for the theist to take in. After all, it's calling a spade a spade. Most christians like to pick and choose what to follow, and not follow the bible at face value, which IMO is the best way to follow it. They wont admit to picking and choosing.
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Offline Garja

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
But after all, the family loves the attention they get. From the news, to counter protesters, to people discussing them on internet forums. To be a suicide cult is the pussy way out of things. And they've got nothing to gain from that.

I know, I know.  But one can dream Emily.

There was a quote floating around after Osama bin Laden's death (wrongly) attributed to Mark Twain, that said something along the lines of "ive never wished a man dead, but ive read some obituaries with a sense of satisfaction".

I guess the silver lining for atheists is it does give us someone to point to when we talk about how awful religion can be (when taken to its extreme, yet logical, conclusion).
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline screwtape

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 09:08:19 PM »
An open question to the theists here:

Atheists who answered: 3
Theists who answered: 0

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 09:13:41 PM »
Thank you, Emily, for sharing this video.  I've seen their signs and read their webpage.  But seeing the children who are taught to hate, and seeing the young woman who was heartlessly cast out of her family, made me feel a knot in the pit of my stomach.

If only there were a hell for them to rot in...

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 09:18:35 PM »
An open question to the theists here:

Atheists who answered: 3
Theists who answered: 0

I had actually composed an answer to this but my sign on timed out and it didn't post.
I was very pissed off when I typed it because I had attempted to watch that video.
I no longer had the energy to redo it.
The basic jist of it was if they hate America so much they should f-ing leave and they are f-ing lucky the military was around in the late 30's and early 40's or they would be spewing their hatred in German or Japanese...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 09:20:09 PM »
Thank you, Emily, for sharing this video.  I've seen their signs and read their webpage.  But seeing the children who are taught to hate, and seeing the young woman who was heartlessly cast out of her family, made me feel a knot in the pit of my stomach.

If only there were a hell for them to rot in...

I would happily use my nasty military training to help send them there.  Yea I said it...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Emily

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 09:23:54 PM »
Thank you, Emily, for sharing this video.  I've seen their signs and read their webpage.  But seeing the children who are taught to hate, and seeing the young woman who was heartlessly cast out of her family, made me feel a knot in the pit of my stomach.

If only there were a hell for them to rot in...

Tell me about it. My heart feels for that girl. I love her bravery to see past their brainwashing and to question her own family.

When I first saw that video I did shed at tear at hearing Faith talk about how god hates the world. In that video she looked like she was probably 3 years old. Stephen Drain moved his family there when Lauren was able to begin thinking for herself. Poor Faith probably wont get that option.

What else is sad is that Bo seems so uncertain of his answer. But his father coached him through it.

She's such a brave young woman for standing by the doubt against that which she was taught.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:28:47 PM by Emily »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 09:31:12 PM »
Thank you for responding, Lori.

The basic jist of it was if they hate America so much they should f-ing leave and they are f-ing lucky the military was around in the late 30's and early 40's or they would be spewing their hatred in German or Japanese...

While I agree that they should have their citizenship revoked and be exiled to Peru, I don't think they hate America.  I think they hate that Americans support "the gay agenda" and thus, god hates America.  They support their position with quotes from scripture.  Their argument seems pretty solid, from a "word of god" stand point.  On what grounds do you, as a squishy in the middle and fuzzy around the edges xian, reject their reasoning and position?

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 09:42:59 PM »
Thank you for responding, Lori.

The basic jist of it was if they hate America so much they should f-ing leave and they are f-ing lucky the military was around in the late 30's and early 40's or they would be spewing their hatred in German or Japanese...

While I agree that they should have their citizenship revoked and be exiled to Peru,
What did Peru do to deserve that?
Quote
I don't think they hate America.  I think they hate that Americans support "the gay agenda" and thus, god hates America.  They support their position with quotes from scripture.  Their argument seems pretty solid, from a "word of god" stand point.
Sure if the only part of the Bible you ever read is the OT.

Quote
On what grounds do you, as a squishy in the middle and fuzzy around the edges xian, reject their reasoning and position?

I will have to get back to you on that but  I can say with 100% certainty that Jesus was never quoted to "hate fags."  I will have some quotes tomorrow. 

By the way, who told you I am squishy in the middle?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 09:44:09 PM »


While I agree that they should have their citizenship revoked and be exiled to Peru, I don't think they hate America.  I think they hate that Americans support "the gay agenda" and thus, god hates America.  They support their position with quotes from scripture.  Their argument seems pretty solid, from a "word of god" stand point.  On what grounds do you, as a squishy in the middle and fuzzy around the edges xian, reject their reasoning and position?

Peru???? Poor Peru has its own problems.  And GLBT folks in Peru have it hard enough as it is.  They don't need those nasty folks down there.

There must be some bleak little uninhabited island somewhere, with no internet access, and no way to get off, that might suit their needs.  Maybe someplace really close to Antarctica.  Someplace that will sink if the ice continues melting.  That would give them a new cause to focus on. 


Offline Garja

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 10:09:31 PM »
^ After the announcement of Quesi's plan being implemented, Westboro announced a switch in their primary concern.





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Offline writerstephen

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 10:18:16 PM »
hahahaha "cthulhu blew up the shuttle"

ah, if only they had such a sign. i don't think humor is their long suit.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 10:25:36 PM »
Sure if the only part of the Bible you ever read is the OT.

Actually they support it with the NT as well.  You should read their FAQ.
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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 10:28:54 PM »
Does god hate excessive farters? Ya'll stink! (a horrible joke for those destroying the O-Zone layer)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 10:40:05 PM by Emily »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »
An open question to the theists here:
<snip>
So why aren't more Christians following these, admittedly distasteful, but seemingly theologically valid, practices? Your god is a bloody tyrant. Why not preach it?

Is that really what you want? How would a wider adherence to WBC style of preaching be preferable to the cherry picking daddies who think God is Love?

I don't get it.

If that's not really what you want then what good does it do to criticize theists for cherry picking the bible and charging them with SPAG if you are going to hold up the WBC as a paragon for the true God of the Bible?

It makes no sense to ask a theist why they can't be more like the Phelps.
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Offline Garja

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2012, 06:02:57 AM »
Mr. Blackwell, I'm pretty sure you just showed the OP's hand.  If I may be so bold, I am pretty sure Steven's intent was to get theists to think about what they believe and why they believe it, to encourage a thought-exercise to get to them to look at why they do use SPAG and why they cherry pick the way they do.  Once you have opened up that discussion, and we can assume that the theist has some grasp on reality and morality (more than the westboro ppl at any rate) one can start to get to the heart of the matter and discuss the immorality of Christianity (the Bible) as a whole.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2012, 07:17:24 AM »
I will have to get back to you on that but  I can say with 100% certainty that Jesus was never quoted to "hate fags."  I will have some quotes tomorrow. 

Jesus H wouldn't have to say that.  He said he was there not to change the law.  And stoning homos was the law.  He would have had to specifically repeal that part of the law.

By the way, who told you I am squishy in the middle?

You have been flying your SPAG Flag proudly since you first posted.
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Offline writerstephen

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Re: Westboro Baptist Church
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2012, 08:17:09 AM »
An open question to the theists here:
<snip>
So why aren't more Christians following these, admittedly distasteful, but seemingly theologically valid, practices? Your god is a bloody tyrant. Why not preach it?

Is that really what you want? How would a wider adherence to WBC style of preaching be preferable to the cherry picking daddies who think God is Love?

I don't get it.

If that's not really what you want then what good does it do to criticize theists for cherry picking the bible and charging them with SPAG if you are going to hold up the WBC as a paragon for the true God of the Bible?

It makes no sense to ask a theist why they can't be more like the Phelps.

Mr. Blackwell, you give me too much credit. I'm not trying to influence anyone's behavior--i guess i'm interested in how theists justify NOT accepting a biblical interpretation that seems correct if distasteful. Naturally it's not preferable to have more xtians like Phelps, but it is interesting to me WHY there aren't more. Further, i guess i'd like to see if this line of thought will make theists question themselves. Because frankly, it was a large part of my internal dialogue when i was making the transition toward unbelief.

Also, forgive my ignorance, but what is SPAG?