Author Topic: God's will [#2682]  (Read 6897 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 12:41:42 PM »
When in doubt, insult your audience.

EDIT:  You might have done well to look up what an "atheist" is a while before this point, Albert.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 12:47:09 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 12:56:15 PM »
Albert,

Couple things:

1) Most every one is playing pretend in order to have a discussion with you. They are talking about the fiction that is the bible, as if it were real, in order to touch base with you.

2) You should dial your anger down a few notches. I am not sure why you are so angry and hateful toward the membership on a forum you signed up to, but if you can't control your anger, you should take a break.

With regard to item #1, maybe it's time you return the favour and look at your beliefs as if they were fiction, something you believe because of where and when you happen to have been born, and because of certain psychological predispositions you possess. At the very least, an expression of gratitude to your hosts, and less anger, is in order. 
 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2012, 01:29:08 PM »
We don't hate god. The anger you read into the posts is mostly frustration at how obvious it is that the character of god as presented in the OT simply has nothing to do with the allegedly loving character who wants nothing but a personal relationship with each and every one of us, as well as many other glaring inconsistencies and lack of basic logic that make it clear that Christianity is no more than any other mythology. And yet, for all the people whose minds are indelibly imprinted with this as "truth", nothing one can say seems to make a dent in their beliefs. And they would have this entire country run on the premise that this mythology, which various factions can't even agree on a consistent interpretation of, is the one and only way life should be lived, and that some supreme being will bless or curse the country accordingly.

And that doesn't even get into the topic of afterlife, where this purported supreme being, if he existed in the way that the majority of Christians seem to believe in, casts the vast majority of his creation into some form of existence involving eternal torture for the simple fact that they failed, for what were perfectly good reasons within the confines of their own experience & understanding.

IF such a being were to exist, then, yes, we would hate it, but all the (lack of) evidence and presence of so much inconsistency and logical impossibilities simply prevents us from doing so.

Offline Garja

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2012, 01:39:40 PM »
^ You are barking up the wrong tree Albert, we are not angry at God because we DO NOT THINK HE EXISTS.  If there is any anger, and I personally believe frustration is a much more accurate word, it is at people who believe things "just because".  I was with you for a very long time Albert, I was a believer for 32 years, but the evidence for the existence of any kind of God (much less the Abrahamic God) is very slim. 

Its frustrating because believers in this likely non-existent being waste vast quantities of money and time on things that could actually HELP HUMANKIND IN THE ONLY LIFE WE KNOW WE HAVE.  How many millions of dollars are spent per year on missionary missions that could have been dedicated to building a hospital or a water purification system, or a school (I know missionaries some times do these things in addition to their actual mission).  Its frustrating because theists look at people who believe differently than they do or live their lives in ways that they believe to be incorrect, but have absolutely no impact on society at large, and call them immoral and/or evil.  The attitude that even you, someone who is actually willing to listen to rebuttal, is condescending and treats us like we are petulant children rebelling against a parent.  Its insulting.

Theists, while quick to leap on any evidence that can be contorted to support their beliefs, disregard any scientific evidence that shows that things written by 4th (ish) century BCE, iron age, preliterate, goat herders is in fact exactly what it looks like and NOT any inspired word of God.  You are quick to leap on "evidence" for Noah's Ark despite the fact it is a well known hoax, or site the fact a couple wheels found in water are somehow evidence that God swept Pharaoh's army away by crashing the Red Sea on them.  Thats not jumping to conclusions or anything (I wonder how many tires are sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic).

Atheists are NOT angry at God, we are angry at people who willingly deceive themselves at every turn in order to continue the self-centered belief that they will live forever and that somehow some omnipotent being is looking out for ME when I lose my car keys but sees fit for millions to die every year by diseases and lack of food and water for the pure and simple fact that they happened to be born in a poor country.

Get over yourself.  This is the only life we have, accept it, move on, and help your fellow man instead of worrying about God.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »
Let's back up, Albert. I don't believe there is a god, so I am not angry at him for what he does or does not do. If there is a god, an all powerful, all knowing being, then he can do anything he wants. If he wants to make life for all humans happy and fluffy and perfect, he can. If he wants to make human life full of heartache, suffering and hurt, he can.

He knows everything, past, present, future. He knows all the consequences of every action in the universe, and is in control of all of those actions. And if, as you say, he loves human beings, why does he do so many things that lead to heartache, suffering and hurt? He has a strange way of showing his love, like an abusive parent or spouse--"I hurt you, yes, gave you cancer and brain damage and birth defects, but you brought it upon yourself because you disobeyed the commands that I gave you in my own secret code. And it's for your own good. Maybe someday you will understand."

As a made-up character, Jehovah God is not very likeable. He is scary and demanding. He commands but does not explain. He wants people to bow down and worship him, to shiver in fear of him and to obey him without question or thought. He comes across as immature, unpredictable, intermittently kind, but crazy and arbitrarily violent, more of an arch-villain serial killer, like Darth Vader or the Joker, than a hero to be admired or emulated. He sets up impossible scenarios that he knows will fail, and then he gets pissed off and destroys people and cities like a child smashing all the play-doh animals because they don't act right.

Even a flawed human made-up hero like Sherlock Holmes, Batman or Iron Man tries to do the right thing, and for comprehensible reasons. If you took every place in the bible that said god, and substituted the name Shango, Darth Vader or Professor Moriarty, would this character still be the loving being you think he is? If Darth Vader drowned all life on a planet, would you be trying to justify the act as loving? Or would you decide that it is a good thing that this guy is just made up?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2012, 03:01:43 PM »
Hey guys, whats up? It seems you are all angry at God.

There is no such thing as an atheist that is angry at god.  God is an imaginary character.  It's kinda hard to hate an imaginary character.

Do you hate Darth Vader?


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(unintelligent statement you say)

"Atheists are angry at god" is an unintelligent statement.


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Well, I am just making conversation :)
Why are you so angry then? Give me your reasons please, because believe it or not(I kinda know where you are on this one), God does exist and love each and every one of you. Even if you lined up every single curse word you can throw, He shall still love you. Well its your choice.

Atheists do not believe that god exists.

Why is this so hard for many theists to understand?


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If you have noticed, none of you has given me a single verified reason to hate God.

Again, we don't hate imaginary beings.


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Think about it, you(to whom it applies) say that the bible is not true, a fable book, but you use this as evidence to say that this God is evil, and "kills millions of kids", yet if you believe him to not exist, then you are claiming that a non existant one is causing all the trouble that does trouble you. Kinda like "the fairy ate the cake" line that kids give.

Nobody here has ever said that an imaginary being causes them trouble.  They have, however, said that the followers of said imaginary being causes them trouble.


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But give me a reason as to why you, YOU(personal) believe God is that way.

You mean why we believe that god is imaginary?  Simple.  Lack of evidence for his existence.

Or did you mean why we think that this god is evil?  Because of everything he does in the bible.  He kills millions of people, encourge others to kill, demand blood sacrifices (because the smell is pleasing to him), and so on.  After alllllllllllllll that, one gets the impression that this guy is very not-nice.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2012, 03:12:31 PM »
Well, I am just making conversation :)

That's what the forums are for!  *grin*

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Why are you so angry then?

Atheists get this question a lot, and I can understand why.  A lot of atheists are very angry about a lot of things.  The mistake you're making, as has been pointed out, is to assume that we are angry at God -- we aren't.  At most, you could say that we're angry at God in kind of the same way that we're angry at the Empire because they destroyed Alderaan for no reason, but a lot of atheists probably wouldn't even grant that much.  (I'm not sure I would, either.)

We are angry for many other reasons.  I recommend Greta Christina's article, "Atheists and Anger":
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html
(Note: there's some language in there, so probably best not to read it at work.)
Read it slowly... and you may want to read it more than once, then give it some thought.  I, for one, am angry for most of the same reasons Greta is, and many other atheists are as well -- when Greta read some portions of this at the Reason Rally in March, she got a lot of reactions from the crowd.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2012, 04:01:28 PM »
Piano, the Empire did not destroy Alderaan for no reason.

Your mistake brings up a very important point that, those of us who have the correct interpretation of the event, can help you with.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2012, 04:12:58 PM »
Piano, the Empire did not destroy Alderaan for no reason.

Your mistake brings up a very important point that, those of us who have the correct interpretation of the event, can help you with.

I agree with pianodwarf about the Empire. And don't you dare bring up any information from that forgery Episode One, any fanfiction apocrypha or anything other than the Original Trilogy, you heretic. I have phasered people for less.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Emily

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2012, 05:29:27 PM »
Hey guys, whats up? It seems you are all angry at God. (unintelligent statement you say)

No one here is angry at god, simply because it's impossible to be angry at something that doesn't exist.

But...........

If your version of god does exist, he has earned our anger and you should be ashamed for making excuses for your god by saying he's all loving. If you god is real and does have all the qualities theists claim it does it is clear than theists haven't actually examined their god's 'handywork' too closely.

For example, your god's love in action:



So, what do you have to say for your god now? Is that child's position the act of a loving god? Does that child, even it is has somehow sinned in your god's eye to be in that position, does he deserve to be in that position, while us atheists are in a better position? Or, if it is because that child doesn't worship your god (whether because her has not heard of your god, or worships some other god), why doesn't your god do something miraclous that would make people believe in it, if it would end suffering because they don't believe it it/never heard of it? Why doesn't your god dish out punishments accordingly? For example: atheists have far better lives than that of starving children.

So if your god is real he deserves everyone's hate towards him.

I mean, if your god is all loving then he'f create clean drinking water for that kid's village, and create the soil to be able to grow crops. Yet in Genesis your god claims that everything in his creation is 'Good'[1]

If the situation that kid is in is 'good', then your god has very poor standards.

Your god is all powerful, so he can give the children what they need so they don't suffer.
Your god is all loving, so he should want too.
Your god is all knowing, so he'd know when he created the heavens and the earth that civilization would form where the starving children are, so he'd do something at the time of creation to prevent that crisis the children are in now.

So, if your god is real he deserves the hatred he is receiving and deserves no worship.

-M
 1. Genesis 1:31
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 06:43:16 PM by Emily »
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2012, 06:19:36 PM »
You bring up a good point, Emily.

A lot of theists want to make the claim that it is human sin and corruption which allows such suffering as that of the child in the photograph. They will tell us that it is only because of man's greed, selfishness, love of power, etc that such things are allowed, and if we took care of each other, these things could be remedied.

But if god had simply created the Earth such that there were no vast areas of desert, impenetrable mountains, frozen wastelands, etc...if he had created a world with a reasonably temperate climate worldwide, without conditions which spawn hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes and droughts, and with stable continents which don't experience the kind of drift which causes devastating earthquakes, etc...how many of these problems might never have arisen? If there was enough room and enough resources for a population such as we have now, and one piece of land was not so much better than another as to be worth killing for? Surely this would have been within his capability.

Maybe, given human nature, scuffles would have broken out, but would there really be that much reason, aside from the silliness of religion which people seem so prone to invent, for wars and inequality on the level we see now?

Offline Emily

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2012, 06:59:50 PM »
But if god had simply created the Earth such that there were no vast areas of desert, impenetrable mountains, frozen wastelands, etc...if he had created a world with a reasonably temperate climate worldwide, without conditions which spawn hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes and droughts, and with stable continents which don't experience the kind of drift which causes devastating earthquakes, etc...how many of these problems might never have arisen? If there was enough room and enough resources for a population such as we have now, and one piece of land was not so much better than another as to be worth killing for? Surely this would have been within his capability.

It's true. If god had done the job right before he had decided to retire to a desk where his only job is to answer pointless prayers then the world would be a better place. I like what George Carlin said:

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But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago.
http://www.venusproject.com/george-carlin-religion-a-major-league-bullshit.html

Since no one has proven that heaven or hell is real I find no reason to believe that YWYH is real, given that he is just one character in a long list of gods that have been said to exist. But since he is the most dominant 'existing' god in the world today, that meaning he is believed to be real by the majority of those who claim to believe in a god, then I find no reason for those who don't believe in a god to speak so harshly against him. And, for what it's worth, Albert, if you were a Muslim the members here would post similar comments to yours regarding Allah.

but the truth is this: YAHWEH did a horrible job creating the Universe and the Earth inside of it, if it is a fact he is real. It's far from perfect, given disease, natural disasters, hunger, etc. Me in my non-omnipotent self, could have done a better job then this god did, but only because I have compassion for others, even if they don't kiss my ass.
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Offline Garja

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2012, 07:24:46 PM »
But dont you know?  Humans are innately sinful!  We all suffer from the condition of original sin, and even though common sense and morality says that we should judge our fellow human beings based on their actions and not judge them on the "sins of the father", we have to pay because some bitch ate an apple 6000 years ago.

Create a disease, sell the cure.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2012, 07:39:03 PM »
But dont you know?  Humans are innately sinful!  We all suffer from the condition of original sin, and even though common sense and morality says that we should judge our fellow human beings based on their actions and not judge them on the "sins of the father", we have to pay because some bitch ate an apple 6000 years ago.

Create a disease, sell the cure.

--and the cure don't work, so you can keep on selling more of it....like diet pills, wrinkle cream and whatever it is that is supposed to make men's you-know-what bigger.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 07:41:17 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Garja

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2012, 07:47:59 PM »
Create a disease, sell the cure.

--and the cure don't work, so you can keep on selling more of it....like diet pills, wrinkle cream and whatever it is that is supposed to make men's you-know-what bigger.

Wait.  Are you saying that the religion scam belief system creates its own circular logic that perpetually creates its own problem that is beyond measurement, and is a cure that also cannot be measured ad infinitum  so that you ALWAYS have the disease and NEVER know if you are truly cured?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2012, 08:02:49 PM »
Create a disease, sell the cure.

--and the cure don't work, so you can keep on selling more of it....like diet pills, wrinkle cream and whatever it is that is supposed to make men's you-know-what bigger.

Wait.  Are you saying that the religion scam belief system creates its own circular logic that perpetually creates its own problem that is beyond measurement, and is a cure that also cannot be measured ad infinitum  so that you ALWAYS have the disease and NEVER know if you are truly cured?
You are never really saved from sin, and no man's you-know-what is ever big enough. (Those two statements are related somehow...)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2012, 09:51:13 PM »
Hey guys, whats up? It seems you are all angry at God. (unintelligent statement you say)
Well, I am just making conversation :)
Why are you so angry then? Give me your reasons please, because believe it or not(I kinda know where you are on this one), God does exist and love each and every one of you. Even if you lined up every single curse word you can throw, He shall still love you. Well its your choice.
If you have noticed, none of you has given me a single verified reason to hate God. Think about it, you(to whom it applies) say that the bible is not true, a fable book, but you use this as evidence to say that this God is evil, and "kills millions of kids", yet if you believe him to not exist, then you are claiming that a non existant one is causing all the trouble that does trouble you. Kinda like "the fairy ate the cake" line that kids give.
But give me a reason as to why you, YOU(personal) believe God is that way.

I see no difference between your praising you god and some gibbering islander primitive praising their volcano god, Ugabuga. Please do understand that. I do not hate Ugabuga for the eruption 300 hundred years ago that killed half the population of the island, I hate the Islander's insistence that Ugabuga is always right, and must be followed, even if involved the killing of children to appease his wrath.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Astreja

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2012, 02:12:37 AM »
Why are you so angry then?

Albert, I do not believe in your god, but its existence or nonexistence is irrelevant.  The fact remains that believers exist, and in the name of their god they have deliberately caused an incredible amount of psychological damage to other people.

Right now, Albert, somewhere in the world there are people who are terrified by the prospect that they or someone they dearly love will be condemned to eternal torture.  A small girl is weeping in her bed in the dark, her heart pounding, because some pulpit-pounding S.O.B. at Sunday School has led her to believe that she isn't good enough for heaven.  A young man in a different house is obsessively going through his bedtime ritual to allay the anxiety that Christianity has caused him.

And here you come, telling us that your alleged god loves us.

I'm not angry at your god, Albert.  I'm angry at you.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 02:15:41 AM by Astreja »
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2012, 02:54:51 AM »
Albert,

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Are you angry with him because he doesn't deliver presents to you on dec 25th? Would you instead be mad at your parents for willfully and knowingly lying to you to control you? I don't care for the "truth" of Santa because I know he doesn't exist. I don't care for the people who pass laws to make Santa happy. I don't care for the people who tell me I'm evil because I do not follow the Santa Code, sing praises to him, go to Santa Club every Sunday, or donate money to the Santa Fund.

Am I angry with Santa? No, I am not. I am also not angry with your God, Allah or Zeus either. One can look at the descriptions of these gods and look at reality, see how don't match and know that these gods are not real. Is there a creater god? I don't know, but until they decide to show themself, I see no point living my life to make something that "exists outside of time and space" happy. I see people around me everyday that mean more to me than any god.

If your mother was left by your father right after he knocked he up and has had nothing to do with you or her ever since, do you owe him your life? Because he's the seed that helped gave you life? No, you owe him nothing. You may want to meet your father. Your mother may tell you every day that your father wants to have a personal relationship with you, to be your father, but until your father makes an effort to meet you, does he really? Does she say it because she doesn't want you to know that she may have drunk and doesn't want you to know that no love was involved with what brought you life? Or that you were just an accident, because she thought she wouldn't get pregenant for whatever reason? Or does she say it to consul herself, because she wished he loved her, instead of the reality that all he wanted was a good time? 

The difference between this example and god, is that you know you have a father. Your mother wouldn't have gotten pregnant if no sperm entered the egg that became you. For god though, every time we learn something new, god becomes less. He used to throw lightning bolts, but we learned that it's just static electricity. He used to move pillars and make earthquakes, but now we know there's no pillars and that they're cause by plate tectonics. Now the only things that god is in the realm of is the origin of the universe and the origin of life. We may or may not learn what the cause is, but god? When someone misses the first 498 of 500 things attributed to him written under "his inspiration" we can guestimate that he didn't have anything regarding the last two either.

There once was a day that everyone thought the Earth was flat. Then some Greeks 500 BCE realized the Earth is round and figured it's circumference to within a few miles. I know someone posed this question: What keeps people from falling off? And the person who discovered it had no reply other than, "I don't know." I bet everyone laughed and the one who proposed that the Earth is round. Just because he didn't know, did that mean he was incorrect about the Earth being round? You see, 2,000 years later a man did discover what kept people from falling off. He also proposed a theory on what it would take to maintain an orbit. You know what it is? It's the "just a theory[1]" Theory of Gravity. You get that right? Two thousand years of, "I don't know" before we discovered the answer. Hundreds of years after the New World was discovered and the Earth proven to be round.

Will it be 2,000 years before we discover the origin of the universe? I hope not. We might never figure it out, but until a god steps in, shows themself and states, "It was me!" I am certain that no god had anything to do with it.
 1. what theists love to say about the theory of Evolution.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 02:57:03 AM by Ivellios »

Online Nam

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2012, 03:41:05 AM »
I'm angry at Santa Claus. I asked for a PS3, and didn't get it. Damn Santa and all hisreindeers, including Rudolph. Yeah, I said it: DAMN RUDOLPH THE RED-NOSED REINDEER!!!

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Albert2523

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2012, 11:20:28 AM »
When in doubt, insult your audience.

EDIT:  You might have done well to look up what an "atheist" is a while before this point, Albert.
Please re-read my post. You will notice that that was not the point. I didnt mean to insult anyone. If I did, regardless of my intention, I am sorry.

Offline Albert2523

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
Hey guys, whats up? It seems you are all angry at God. (unintelligent statement you say)

No one here is angry at god, simply because it's impossible to be angry at something that doesn't exist.

But...........

If your version of god does exist, he has earned our anger and you should be ashamed for making excuses for your god by saying he's all loving. If you god is real and does have all the qualities theists claim it does it is clear than theists haven't actually examined their god's 'handywork' too closely.

For example, your god's love in action:



So, what do you have to say for your god now? Is that child's position the act of a loving god? Does that child, even it is has somehow sinned in your god's eye to be in that position, does he deserve to be in that position, while us atheists are in a better position? Or, if it is because that child doesn't worship your god (whether because her has not heard of your god, or worships some other god), why doesn't your god do something miraclous that would make people believe in it, if it would end suffering because they don't believe it it/never heard of it? Why doesn't your god dish out punishments accordingly? For example: atheists have far better lives than that of starving children.

So if your god is real he deserves everyone's hate towards him.

I mean, if your god is all loving then he'f create clean drinking water for that kid's village, and create the soil to be able to grow crops. Yet in Genesis your god claims that everything in his creation is 'Good'[1]

If the situation that kid is in is 'good', then your god has very poor standards.

Your god is all powerful, so he can give the children what they need so they don't suffer.
Your god is all loving, so he should want too.
Your god is all knowing, so he'd know when he created the heavens and the earth that civilization would form where the starving children are, so he'd do something at the time of creation to prevent that crisis the children are in now.

So, if your god is real he deserves the hatred he is receiving and deserves no worship.

-M
 1. Genesis 1:31
Could you show the link between God and the famine please? Do we not have any human influence in this issue? Not to be rude but you have the issue of God's sovereignty inaccurate.
If there is one thing that you should know at the forefront of your understanding of God it is this; God works through people, you can search the whole bible and this will be evident. HE ALWAYS HAD TO USE A PERSON TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE ON EARTH! Moses, Isaiah, Paul, you name them, always through a person, VERIFY THIS FOR YOURSELF if you do not believe me.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:27:53 AM by Albert2523 »

Offline HAL

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2012, 11:50:38 AM »
HE ALWAYS HAD TO USE A PERSON TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE ON EARTH! Moses, Isaiah, Paul, you name them, always through a person, VERIFY THIS FOR YOURSELF if you do not believe me.

How did he use a person to flood the Earth?

Offline screwtape

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »
Could you show the link between God and the famine please?

When you are omnipotent and omniscient the buck stops with you.  Every buck stops with you.  yhwh - if he is as xians describe - could end suffering.  Yet he does not.  I asked another member these questions already.  Perhaps you would indulge me too.

1. if you had the power to do do anything, similar to yhwh, would you use that power to help people?
2. would you consider it immoral if you did not help people?

Do we not have any human influence in this issue?

Of course, but we also have limited power and ability.  yhwh does not have our obstacles.

God works through people,

That's baloney. That is a forfeit.  It is you giving up and hiding behind a flimsy excuse because the obvious answer staring you in the face is a painful one you do not want to own up to. 

"What is true is already so.  Owning up to it does not make it worse. "
- Eugene Gendlin

HE ALWAYS HAD TO USE A PERSON TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE ON EARTH!

1. Er, Onan, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babel, the plagues of Egypt, Korah, Dathan and Abira.  yhwh did some of his own dirty work.  Not much, but some.

2. It is interesting that yhwh would do that.  Why do you think that is so?  I think it is because everyone - even people who consider themselves believers - knows god doesn't do shit.  It is so convenient for yhwh that when people do things, somehow he gets the credit.

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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Traveler

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2012, 12:23:57 PM »
...It is true that God has a plan for each of our lives, he has thoughts of good, and not of evil...

If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Boots

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2012, 12:31:13 PM »
Could you show the link between God and the famine please? Do we not have any human influence in this issue? Not to be rude but you have the issue of God's sovereignty inaccurate.
If there is one thing that you should know at the forefront of your understanding of God it is this; God works through people, you can search the whole bible and this will be evident. HE ALWAYS HAD TO USE A PERSON TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE ON EARTH! Moses, Isaiah, Paul, you name them, always through a person, VERIFY THIS FOR YOURSELF if you do not believe me.

Does your god have the capacity to help that one child, Albert? 

Is your god "good?"

If you answered "yes" to both of these, then you really need to reflect on your answers, because they are inconsistent.

If you answered "no" to either one or both, then your god is utterly useless.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline Aaron123

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #84 on: August 27, 2012, 12:54:25 PM »
If there is one thing that you should know at the forefront of your understanding of God it is this; God works through people, you can search the whole bible and this will be evident. HE ALWAYS HAD TO USE A PERSON TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE ON EARTH! Moses, Isaiah, Paul, you name them, always through a person, VERIFY THIS FOR YOURSELF if you do not believe me.

Explain to me, the distinction between god "working through people", and someone doing something by themselves.


Also...... "had to use" a person?  Doesn't that imply a limit on god's powers?  Just saying...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2012, 01:04:48 PM »
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: God's will [#2682]
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2012, 01:17:52 PM »
Oh and Albert, on your Ark/Chariot Wheels/Sodom and Gomorrah ashes statement:

1. To date, all Ark "discoveries" have been shown to be either be hoaxes or without any evidence. After the initial hoopla, everything gets real quiet until the next "discovery". Meanwhile, nothing is ever put to the test. None. Zero.

2. No chariot wheels have been pulled from the Gulf of Aquba. None. Zero. All I see is grainy photos from believer web sites. This "discovery" was also promoted by an Ark "researcher". Nothing has been retrieved or studied. So, please....why would you be so gullible?

3. Other than biased religious sites, I find no evidence of any discovery of S&G covered in ashes. "Do you have a reputable link?", he said knowing full well it was most likely pointless.

Now, you asked us to look up something. Why don't you google for "antarctic ice cores" and try and reconcile that with a 6000 year old earth and a global flood. Good luck!

Three strikes and you're out! Albert, being a Christian, especially of the young earth variety, is akin to being in the camp of Sasquatch hunters, UFO-ologists, Crystal Pyramid lovers and other associated BS.
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636