God's will [#2682]

[pianodwarf]

Hello. I recently read your article and I would like to clarify somethings if you are willing to have me do so.
It is true that God has a plan for each of our lives, he has thoughts of good, and not of evil, to give is an expected end (Jeremiah 29 :11-14) but you have to note another Scripture as well in 2 Peter 3:9 which says that "for God is not willing that any should perish but for all to cone to repentance, acknowledge his love and choose Him and have a personal relationship with him. What you pointed out is actually true in this regard: the false sovereignty teaching that had been attributed to God. Time and again the events mentioned in the Bible show God giving the people options and telling them to choose his ways and righteousness paths so as to have his plan accomplished. The old testament is full of accounts of where Isreal rebelled and rejected God which led to them been conquered by their neighbours since they had rejected God and his ways. If you have taken time to examine the new testament, you will find that Jesus never forced anyone to be healed. Even when the blind man came to him (who was obviously so) Jesus asked him : What do you want me to do for you? Now this seems very stupid at first since his need was obvious but you always have to remember that God is a God of principle who has sworn to regard human free will and will not change.
Now think about it, if God was half the tyrannt that many claim he is, would they even breathe those statements?
To conclude, whatever view you hold, I just want you to be basing it on the right information. We always slap the monitor when the pc is slow yet the monitor has nothing to do with core performance. This has happened a lot with God and I just want to bring these simple facts to your attention. Have your verdict, but endeavour to have a right on not hindered by a lack of knowledge or one based on misguided precepts.
Finally I hope above all things that this will at least stir you up to seek the truth on this matter. No one ever blamed gravity for plane crashes, how much more judgement on the character of a loving and merciful God without fair analysis!

[Chronos]

I think gravity plays a significant role in plane crashes, but maybe that's just me.

[pianodwarf]

2 Peter 3:9 which says that "for God is not willing that any should perish but for all to cone to repentance

Oh, so Yahweh does not want anyone to go to hell, then...?

Proverbs 16:4 -- The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40 -- He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18 -- Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 -- God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

It appears that Yahweh does want some people to go to hell.

Even when the blind man came to him (who was obviously so) Jesus asked him : What do you want me to do for you? Now this seems very stupid at first since his need was obvious but you always have to remember that God is a God of principle who has sworn to regard human free will and will not change.

Oh, so Yahweh does not interfere with human free will, then...?

Jeremiah 10:23 -- O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Acts 13:48 -- And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 -- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-22 -- For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Ephesians 1:4-5 -- He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

2 Timothy 1:9 -- Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Jude 4 -- For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

(And of course, Exodus, where Pharaoh keeps wanting to release the Jews but Yahweh "hardens his heart" something like eight or ten times and won't let him do so.)

Scripture is quite clear on this, friend: Yahweh has created us for his own reasons, has chosen our fate for us before we were even conceived, and for some of us, that fate is eternal hellfire.  Or, to put it more succinctly, the god of the bible is a foot-wide shit-smeared asshole.

Now think about it, if God was half the tyrannt that many claim he is, would they even breathe those statements?

Why not?  Maybe he finds it amusing somehow because he knows there's nothing we can do about it.

To conclude, whatever view you hold, I just want you to be basing it on the right information.

Back at you!

Have your verdict, but endeavour to have a right on not hindered by a lack of knowledge or one based on misguided precepts.

We can only draw conclusions about Yahweh's nature based on what appears in scripture, obviously.

Finally I hope above all things that this will at least stir you up to seek the truth on this matter.

Of that, you may rest assured.

No one ever blamed gravity for plane crashes

Well, I suppose not exactly, no, but if gravity didn't exist, neither would plane crashes.

how much more judgement on the character of a loving and merciful God without fair analysis!

Which loving and merciful god are you referring to?  It certainly isn't Yahweh.

[Albert2523]

Seeing your scriptural references, I am sure you have come across this verse as well. Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But before I go into this, I would like to know this; do you understand the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant?

[pianodwarf]

Seeing your scriptural references, I am sure you have come across this verse as well.

Yes, I have -- like most here at WWGHA, I've read the entire bible, so I'm familiar with the verses that say that all men can achieve salvation just as much as I'm familiar with the verses that say that some men cannot achieve salvation.

But before I go into this, I would like to know this; do you understand the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant?

Yes, I do.  I also know that there are many Christians who don't make the distinction because -- as with the problem of whether all men have the opportunity to achieve salvation -- there are conflicting scriptures as to whether we are still under the old covenant.

[Quesi]

First of all, welcome to the forum. 

Time and again the events mentioned in the Bible show God giving the people options and telling them to choose his ways and righteousness paths so as to have his plan accomplished.

Tell me about the options that were offered to Noah's contemporaries.  I'm especially interested in choices that your god offered the young children who subsequently perished. 

[Albert2523]

Yes, I have -- like most here at WWGHA, I've read the entire bible, so I'm familiar with the verses that say that all men can achieve salvation just as much as I'm familiar with the verses that say that some men cannot achieve salvation.

.
Well, could you please explain the difference in the manner you understand it? That would make it easier for me to accurately answer your questions.

[Ivellios]

But before I go into this, I would like to know this; do you understand the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant?

Yes, I do. Jeremiah 31:31-37

Specifically v33-34: "This is the new covenant I shall make," declares the Lord. "I will put my law into thier minds and write it on thier hearts. I will be thier god, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will ALL know me, from the least to the greatest." declares the Lord.

According to this verse, among others, we are still under the old covenant. "For heaven and Earth shall pass away, but the Law shall endure forever..." "I have not come to abolish the law, but to follow it..."

Edit: The very fact that you felt compelled to tell us about god proves he has not activated the second covenant, for we do not know him.

[Albert2523]

Tell me about the options that were offered to Noah's contemporaries.  I'm especially interested in choices that your god offered the young children who subsequently perished.

Genesis 6:5-13. Well it does seem like they had very few options. But I would imagine that as Noah was building this massive ark in the middle of 'nowhere', some curious by standers did ask him why he was making ''an ocean liner in the Sahara'' and they probably laughed him to scorn when the reason was given. Now I am not saying that is what exactly happened but something very similar to it.

[Azdgari]

So you're citing that as an example of...

... God giving the people options and telling them to choose his ways and righteousness paths so as to have his plan accomplished.

Bit of a stretch, ain't it?

[Ivellios]

Genesis 6:5-13. Well it does seem like they had very few options. But I would imagine that as Noah was building this massive ark in the middle of 'nowhere', some curious by standers did ask him why he was making ''an ocean liner in the Sahara'' and they probably laughed him to scorn when the reason was given. Now I am not saying that is what exactly happened but something very similar to it.

I didn't see any options in those verses, but it does imply infants and unborn children were so wicked, that even with our wickedness today doesn't compare to those unborn.

[Albert2523]

Yes, I do. Jeremiah 31:31-37

Specifically v33-34: "This is the new covenant I shall make," declares the Lord. "I will put my law into thier minds and write it on thier hearts. I will be thier god, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will ALL know me, from the least to the greatest." declares the Lord.

According to this verse, among others, we are still under the old covenant. "For heaven and Earth shall pass away, but the Law shall endure forever..."

Edit: The very fact that you felt compelled to tell us about god proves he has not activated the second covenant for we do not know him.

You do know about the bible don't you! This is great! Notice I said:about. The implications of your statement are quite revolutionary if you had been right, and this is the reason,
Romans 3:10 For there is none righteous, no not one.
and the following verse Romans 3:22-31  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now this is the twist in your argument, if we are still under the old covenant, then there is no remission of sins. But Jesus did atone for our sins such that God would justly have sin punished and bring redemption and salvation(from the word:salvage!) and hence John 3:16

[jetson]

Albert,

Welcome to the forum!  We do have atheists on this board that are very familiar with scripture.  Many are former believers who came to their atheism because of the Bible. 

Just a note, if the responses to you get overwhelming, please let us know. 

Jetson

[Albert2523]

So you're citing that as an example of...

... God giving the people options and telling them to choose his ways and righteousness paths so as to have his plan accomplished.

Bit of a stretch, ain't it?

Well that does make me sound myopic, and i do agree there wasnt much option there. Do remember, judgement had been passed on them, and if you read Genesis 6:5-13, God wasnt excited about this. It kinda like when one is convicted for crime.

[jetson]

Albert, in your view, is God always right, and always good?

[pianodwarf]

Well, could you please explain the difference {between the two covenants} in the manner you understand it?

To ask an atheist that question isn't really meaningful, inasmuch as we don't accept either covenant, and more pertinently, inasmuch as Christians themselves don't agree on the difference, either, or even whether the difference exists at all.  It would be more productive for you to tell me your version of the two covenants, then I can address that.

For example, if you say we are no longer under the old laws, I can quote you the scriptures that say that we are.  Conversely, if you say we are still under the old laws, I can quote you the scriptures that say that we aren't. 

That would make it easier for me to accurately answer your questions.

I haven't asked any.

[Ivellios]

I know about Harry Potter because I've heard of him, but I've never read the books and happened to step in and saw the end of a movie.

I have read Dune[1], Lord of the Rings, Left Behind, the Bible, etc. I know those books.

Something the all-Knowing God didn't glean upon you either, I used to be a believer. When I was 10 I gave my life to Jesus. Once again a Christian proves either God is incompetant or there is no god. You know? Christians minister to christians? I was completely dumbfounded the first time it happened to me. but aparrently i wasn't "Christian enough" because I wasn't born into the "right" version of the 40,000 diifferent types of christianity. How was I to know which one was the right one? Was any of them the "right one"?

There was remission of sins, that's what all those animal sacrifices were for! You lived a godly holy life you lived to the old age of 30 or so. You sinned and disobeyed god, you died earlier than that. Long life was your reward, and early death was your punishment. The jews never believed that they would be living atop the dome holding up the ocean of water that encloses the sun and moon. Have you ever read the entire bible or just the verses you were told to? What do you thing of god's all loving punishment of the woman whom is raped? or the magical potion to detect if your wife has been unfaithful?

1.	yes, ALL of them.

[Albert2523]

Albert, in your view, is God always right, and always good?

Well, i really need your patience on this one. Now God is always good and right, but he has been misrepresented by many, most unfortunately within the church! It is therefore no wonder that there are many atheists around, because all they ever hear is that they either go to heaven or hell. Now thats just shallow. I must admit, I was once of such a similar religious mindset until I came to learn about the love of God. Now if I sound delusional, just give me a moment to explain this. Jesus didnt die on the cross to just save us from hell, but insted he did that so that we may have everlasting life, and this is everlasting life, that we know the father (John 17:3). But many have diluted the message, the 'church' has used the bible as a means of oppression: Jews were tortured by 'christians' in Rome for the amusement of the citizens and for political power; the crusades were a political movement in which many were murdered, raped and robbed.
THAT I SNOT CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY is following Jesus and submitting to his will, not using his name for our benefit, that is why we are to seek not our will but God's

[jetson]

THAT I SNOT CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY is following Jesus and submitting to his will, not using his name for our benefit, that is why we are to seek not our will but God's

Prior to Jesus' arrival, YHWH ordered the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, and child, and even animal within various cities by Joshua and his army.  Take yourself back to that time, as a member of Joshua's army, commanded by God to kill.  You are wielding a sword above the frail and tiny body of an infant - do you kill the infant?

This extremely visceral description had to be real at that point in time, for many soldiers.  I cannot imagine how they dealt with it, honestly.  I would almost be willing to argue that the stories are fiction.  No matter what though, I cannot find any way to rationalize these genocides as good.

[Albert2523]

I know about Harry Potter because I've heard of him, but I've never read the books and happened to step in and saw the end of a movie.

I have read Dune[1], Lord of the Rings, Left Behind, the Bible, etc. I know those books.

Something the all-Knowing God didn't glean upon you either, I used to be a believer. When I was 10 I gave my life to Jesus. Once again a Christian proves either God is incompetant or there is no god. You know? Christians minister to christians? I was completely dumbfounded the first time it happened to me. but aparrently i wasn't "Christian enough" because I wasn't born into the "right" version of the 40,000 diifferent types of christianity. How was I to know which one was the right one? Was any of them the "right one"?

There was remission of sins, that's what all those animal sacrifices were for! You lived a godly holy life you lived to the old age of 30 or so. You sinned and disobeyed god, you died earlier than that. Long life was your reward, and early death was your punishment. The jews never believed that they would be living atop the dome holding up the ocean of water that encloses the sun and moon. Have you ever read the entire bible or just the verses you were told to? What do you thing of god's all loving punishment of the woman whom is raped? or the magical potion to detect if your wife has been unfaithful?

1.	yes, ALL of them.

Hebrews 10

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

And I can assure you that it is not the will of God to have a woman raped, or child to die or these other things which many churches taught because they lack an understanding of God's will. I am sure you have heard of churches that teach against healings and miracles and other gifts of the spirit, haven't you?

[Albert2523]

Prior to Jesus' arrival, YHWH ordered the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, and child, and even animal within various cities by Joshua and his army.  Take yourself back to that time, as a member of Joshua's army, commanded by God to kill.  You are wielding a sword above the frail and tiny body of an infant - do you kill the infant?

This extremely visceral description had to be real at that point in time, for many soldiers.  I cannot imagine how they dealt with it, honestly.  I would almost be willing to argue that the stories are fiction.  No matter what though, I cannot find any way to rationalize these genocides as good.

Have you read the reasons in the books of Deutronomy, Exodus concerning why God had all the living in these cities killed? save for RAhab the prostitute in Jericho(who consequently became the great grand of David and Jesus?(another shadow picture of grace))

[Ambassador Pony]

Albert, Jetson asked you if you kill the infant.

You did not answer him. Of course, after you answer you can offer a justification.

[jetson]

Have you read the reasons in the books of Deutronomy, Exodus concerning why God had all the living in these cities killed? save for RAhab the prostitute in Jericho(who consequently became the great grand of David and Jesus?(another shadow picture of grace))

I have read them, and I have been told by Christians what those reasons were.  But I still cannot understand how an infant, for example, should be a part of this plan.  Can you?

[Albert2523]

Albert, Jetson asked you if you kill the infant.

You did not answer him. Of course, after you answer you can offer a justification.

OK, I will blatantly answer according to your conditions. The reason all the people were killed was because when left alive, they would teach the Isrealities their ways and customs which would lead them away from the ways of God. This is evident in the books of 1 Kings and 2 Kings where Israel sacrified to Baal and other gods, as well as child sacrifice and temple prostitution.
"Answer the question!" You say.
"Be patient" I retort.
Now this complete elimination in a time when remission of sins was impossible was the only was God would keep the nation of Israel from following after the practices of the nations around them, which where an abomination to God. It went as far as forbidding marriage to their women as they would turn the hearts of the Israelities to other gods. This happened to King Solomon, King Ahab and many others.
So finally, would I have gone ahead with this. Having the reason and purpose for it as God told the people of Israel, I would have done so for that purpose. Know this, GOd never had pleasure in the perishing of the wicked, as a matter of fact:
Ezekiel 18

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

[Albert2523]

I have read them, and I have been told by Christians what those reasons were.  But I still cannot understand how an infant, for example, should be a part of this plan.  Can you?

Well, interestingly enough, there is an incident where the Israelities had the same mentality and spared the infants and the beautiful women. Ofcourse infants do grow up, and guess what they did when they were old men? I will look up the actual record in the scripture and post it thats if you dont already have it

[Albert2523]

For example, if you say we are no longer under the old laws, I can quote you the scriptures that say that we are.  Conversely, if you say we are still under the old laws, I can quote you the scriptures that say that we aren't. 

WHich scriptures are those? Do bear in mind that not all the old testament prophecies have been fulfilled.

[Ambassador Pony]

Thanks, Albert.

When you bust down the door to a home, under orders to kill everything, and there is a woman and her 5 year old daughter and 6 month old son, which of these evil creatures do you kill first? The mother first, so she doesn't have to watch you kill her infant son and toddler? Or, do you try to make swift work of the wicked baby and child before turning your sword on the evil mother.

Do you say anything to them while they beg you to not kill them?

Do you do it with glee? Would yahweh have a problem with it if you felt shame or hesitance in killing the baby and little girl?

[Ivellios]

Have you read the reasons in the books of Deutronomy, Exodus concerning why God had all the living in these cities killed? save for RAhab the prostitute in Jericho(who consequently became the great grand of David and Jesus?(another shadow picture of grace))

Kinda funny how you asked him this and still didn't answer my question. Deut 22 How to properly punish a raped woman. I didn't say it was god's will for women to be raped though it's ok as long as you let her mourn for a month the death of her parents you murdered as per the bible. I asked, "What do you think of God's All-Loving punishment?" I also asked about the magic potion in Numbers 5.

You see something else.
I post : DMV says, "You stop at red ligh and go at green light."
You post: Nuhuh, DVM also says this, "Go at red light, stop at green light! So you do what I just said!"

Don't you understand that this is a contradiction?  If you say something about god's "love" and "free will", don't you understand that in order for it to be "freewill" there cannot be a reward for one choice (bribe) and/or punishment (coercion) for the other. If I offer a piece of candy to you but tell you that I'm going to beat you up if you don't eat it, what are you going to do? Eat it, of course! Why? Because you HAD NO CHOICE.  A person's primal instinct is to survive and protect themself, pending a few factors, at all costs. This is not "free will". It is not love. This is a big bad mafia don.

Edit: One other thing. Isn't God supposed to be unchanging, "the same yesterday, today, and forever"? I thought god was "Perfect"? Did you know that if something changes from perfect it's no longer perfect? So what's up with "perfect unchanging" god changing his mind after a thousand years or so?

[Garja]

Albert,

Welcome to the forum!  We do have atheists on this board that are very familiar with scripture.  Many are former believers who came to their atheism because of the Bible. 

Just a note, if the responses to you get overwhelming, please let us know. 

Jetson

I just wanted to reiterate Jetson's words.  Sometimes we get a little excited around here with new theists and its like blood in the water.  Welcome.