Author Topic: Chavis Carter  (Read 8362 times)

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2012, 06:11:45 AM »
...Was he really trying to kill himself?

I guess we will never know that part, unless someone comes forward and testifies that he had been suicidal, had left a note for his mother, had called a suicide hotline, had given away all his possessions, etc.

It's a sad story any way you look at it.

There would be no note, as this was not a pre-meditated suicide. He wasn't expecting to get caught and arrested. When he realized that he was not going to get away, he probably thought "dey ain't takin' me alive!"

And I don't see this as a sad story, when dangerous criminals die I see it as natural selection at it's finest. I'm against the death penalty but if they want to kill themselves, I'll even pay for the bullet.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2012, 10:01:38 AM »
I don't go with the conspiracy theory. I was dubious until I saw the re-enactment. A gun can be hidden from a superficial pat-down. The usual places are the small of the back and between the buttocks[1].

It seems to me that Carter made his move to hide the weapon when he realised that the cops would be searching him and the car - he couldn't leave it in the car because his prints were all over it. He was already wanted and was again in possession of drugs - he also had a handgun - he was probably looking at prison time.

The next questions are
(i) "Whom would the death benefit?" Certainly not the police who would look good bringing in a felon wanted in another state.
(ii) "If you did want to shoot him, why do it in the back of a police car and whilst he was wearing handcuffs?"

Were the police negligent in their search? "Yes."
Who is usually at risk in a badly performed search? "The police."
 1. Make sure the safety's on
but he would not put the baggy of pot in a place safe from searches?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 10:04:57 AM »
I don't go with the conspiracy theory. I was dubious until I saw the re-enactment. A gun can be hidden from a superficial pat-down. The usual places are the small of the back and between the buttocks[1].

It seems to me that Carter made his move to hide the weapon when he realised that the cops would be searching him and the car - he couldn't leave it in the car because his prints were all over it. He was already wanted and was again in possession of drugs - he also had a handgun - he was probably looking at prison time.

The next questions are
(i) "Whom would the death benefit?" Certainly not the police who would look good bringing in a felon wanted in another state.
(ii) "If you did want to shoot him, why do it in the back of a police car and whilst he was wearing handcuffs?"

Were the police negligent in their search? "Yes."
Who is usually at risk in a badly performed search? "The police."
 1. Make sure the safety's on
but he would not put the baggy of pot in a place safe from searches?

Probably ran out of time trying to hide the gun.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »
Where I live in British Columbia Canada there have been a few "police incidents" that if you believed the police story it would have been open and shut.....until video evidence emerged that showed the cops were liars
 


There was also an incident where a kid was arrested for having an open beer in public and somehow during the struggle at the police station managed to get himself shot in the back of the head during a struggle.....oddly enough there was "no tape" in the stations recording devices that day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bush
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2012, 05:32:35 PM »
...Was he really trying to kill himself?

I guess we will never know that part, unless someone comes forward and testifies that he had been suicidal, had left a note for his mother, had called a suicide hotline, had given away all his possessions, etc.

It's a sad story any way you look at it.

There would be no note, as this was not a pre-meditated suicide. He wasn't expecting to get caught and arrested. When he realized that he was not going to get away, he probably thought "dey ain't takin' me alive!"

And I don't see this as a sad story, when dangerous criminals die I see it as natural selection at it's finest. I'm against the death penalty but if they want to kill themselves, I'll even pay for the bullet.

I realize that the criminal justice system in China is a bit different, but here in the US a suspect is supposed to be treated as innocent until convicted in a court of law. It is not correct to call him a "dangerous criminal" when as far as we know, he may have had some weed and he may have had a gun. Or the police planted it on him. Or they made a mistake. We don't know the facts because there has not been and will never be a trial.

But a young guy has been shot dead. And that is sad. Unless you believe that 21 year old guys who were not attacking or threatening anyone and have not been convicted of a capital crime should be shot dead or should shoot themselves in the head just because. Reduce the excess population or something.

I wonder why the pro-gun and pro-pot people are not championing Carter's firearm and marijuana rights.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2012, 06:37:43 PM »
What I meant, specifically, is that trying to compare this situation to one that would have happened in an apartheid society is not valid.  And yes, Jim Crow was essentially apartheid - racial segregation enforced through legislation.  That isn't the case in the Arkansas of today. ...

Yes, they are different.  How similar do they have to be, before questioning whether racism might have played a part in a suspicious death becomes reasonable?  That was where my question was leading, jaimehlers.  If we'd heard that a black man died in police custody in Apartheid South Africa, then it would have been reasonable to question whether the man's race was a factor.  Here, maybe such speculation was reasonable; maybe it wasn't.  But how racist does a system or society have to be, before that speculation becomes reasonable?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2012, 12:16:32 AM »
I have relatives in Arkansas and I would not live there for a million dollars. I have been there. I have lived in the north too long to put up with the racial crap that my relatives think is normal. The big and little slights, the way some southern white people react if you look them in the eye and speak directly. The possibility of mysterious death in police custody. It is just not worth it. :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2012, 10:55:20 PM »
I realize that the criminal justice system in China is a bit different, but here in the US a suspect is supposed to be treated as innocent until convicted in a court of law. It is not correct to call him a "dangerous criminal" when as far as we know, he may have had some weed and he may have had a gun. Or the police planted it on him. Or they made a mistake. We don't know the facts because there has not been and will never be a trial.

Cute, nice try. I believe the US also has something called freedom of speech, am I right? The court system can treat him as innocent until proven guilty, but I am not bound by those rules as I'm not a police officer, judge, or in any other way associated with the court. As an independent citizen, I can call it as I see it, and I see a guy with a gun being arrested on an outstanding warrant. Therefore, "dangerous criminal" is an entirely appropriate description.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2012, 11:15:55 PM »
I have relatives in Arkansas and I would not live there for a million dollars. I have been there. I have lived in the north too long to put up with the racial crap that my relatives think is normal. The big and little slights, the way some southern white people react if you look them in the eye and speak directly. The possibility of mysterious death in police custody. It is just not worth it. :(

Yeah, cause shit like that just don't happen anywhere else but the south.  &)

Lets try it this way

Quote
I have relatives in Chicago and I would not live there for a million dollars. I have been there. I have lived in the south too long to put up with the racial crap that my relatives think is normal. The big and little slights, the way some northern black people react if you look them in the eye and speak directly. The possibility of being shot in the street. It is just not worth it

You sound like a bigot. Do you teach this crap to your students?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 11:19:24 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2012, 11:23:00 PM »
Nothing like a white guy ridiculing and dismissing the racism experienced by a black woman.  Yeah.  She's the bigot.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2012, 11:39:18 PM »
Nothing like a white guy ridiculing and dismissing the racism experienced by a black woman.  Yeah.  She's the bigot.

Telling someone they SOUND like a bigot when they spew shit like that and actually claiming that they ARE a bigot are not the same thing. You of all people should know this.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2012, 11:41:59 PM »
I'm sorry, Jay.  Is this better?

Nothing like a white guy ridiculing and dismissing the racism experienced by a black woman.  Yeah.  She's the one who sounds like a bigot.

I take the fact that your issue was with the distinction of "sounds like" vs "is", to mean acceptance that you were ridiculing an dismissing the racism experienced in the past by nogodsforme.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 11:46:57 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2012, 12:31:44 AM »
I realize that the criminal justice system in China is a bit different, but here in the US a suspect is supposed to be treated as innocent until convicted in a court of law. It is not correct to call him a "dangerous criminal" when as far as we know, he may have had some weed and he may have had a gun. Or the police planted it on him. Or they made a mistake. We don't know the facts because there has not been and will never be a trial.

Cute, nice try. I believe the US also has something called freedom of speech, am I right? The court system can treat him as innocent until proven guilty, but I am not bound by those rules as I'm not a police officer, judge, or in any other way associated with the court. As an independent citizen, I can call it as I see it, and I see a guy with a gun being arrested on an outstanding warrant. Therefore, "dangerous criminal" is an entirely appropriate description.
I was not "trying" anything other than to suggest accuracy. Being arrested and accused of a crime does not a criminal make or I am an international drug dealer.[1]

Since we are not privy to all the facts, and this is just idle chitchat on a web site, I suppose you can call the guy an innocent bystander, a dangerous criminal, Beelzebub or Willie Wonka. But the facts we can swear to are 1) he was arrested and 2)now he is dead and 3) someone will miss him.
 1. Maybe someday I'll explain the details of that. :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2012, 12:42:51 AM »
Racism happens everywhere. In parts of a country it may be more prevalent than in other parts. This does not mean that racism doesn't happen, to a degree, in those lesser parts. It's just not seen as often as it would be in other parts.

It reminds me of those people who say things like,  "I can't believe this happened in my neighborhood. It's such a nice neighborhood." Of course people who usually state things like that, tend to refer to certain types of people that they thought weren't in their neighborhood. Whether based on race, or other prejudiced factors.

Of course people from such places, I feel, have a better understanding of such occurences rather than those on the outside; whose opinion matters equally but may not hold such weight as those who experience such things on a regular basis.

-Nam
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2012, 12:47:41 AM »
I have relatives in Arkansas and I would not live there for a million dollars. I have been there. I have lived in the north too long to put up with the racial crap that my relatives think is normal. The big and little slights, the way some southern white people react if you look them in the eye and speak directly. The possibility of mysterious death in police custody. It is just not worth it. :(

Yeah, cause shit like that just don't happen anywhere else but the south.  &)

Lets try it this way

Quote
I have relatives in Chicago and I would not live there for a million dollars. I have been there. I have lived in the south too long to put up with the racial crap that my relatives think is normal. The big and little slights, the way some northern black people react if you look them in the eye and speak directly. The possibility of being shot in the street. It is just not worth it

You sound like a bigot. Do you teach this crap to your students?

I don't live in Chicago, either. My (white) husband and I experienced racial crap from both black and white people there. We did not want to go through that with a mixed race child. So, no Arkansas and no Chicago. We visit, but will not live there. Some places are just not worth it.

Yes, I am bigoted. I am bigoted toward jerks of any race who insult or threaten my family.

As far as my being bigoted towards white people, you will just have to ask my (white) husband, (white) mother in law, (white) brother in law, (white) sister in law and (white)nephew. And all of my (white) colleagues and (white) students.[1]

If I have racial prejudice towards white people, I guess I have a strange way of showing it. :angel:
 1. The weird thing about typing white so many times is that I do not think of my friends and relatives that way at all. I guess I am not a very good racist. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2012, 12:49:21 AM »
funny thing is there is a difference between being white and Caucasian.

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2012, 01:22:47 AM »
Yeah! Casper is white. And, he only wishes he were caucasian.

:P

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2012, 03:50:31 AM »
I realize that the criminal justice system in China is a bit different, but here in the US a suspect is supposed to be treated as innocent until convicted in a court of law.
There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area. To make an arrest, a police officer has to have sufficient evidence to bring before a court. That evidence will indicate that a crime has been committed and that the suspect was responsible. It is therefore at the stage of arrest (see the prima facie evidence against Carter) that the person is assumed to have committed a crime.

The test is then before a court and it is only true at this stage that the accused is assumed to be innocent. The assumption of innocence is not really as it seems; what the phrase encapsulates is the idea that the onus of proof of showing that a crime has been committed by the accused is on the prosecution - and this is as it should be - you assert; you prove.

All too often you hear lawyers for the defendant say, "The jury returned a verdict of 'not guilty' and my client's innocence has been proven."  It has not.

All a not guilty verdict says is that "on the day and at the time, the jury were not convinced by the prosecution's argument." It says nothing about whether the accused committed the crime or not. This is why it is possible to have a verdict of "not guilty" but for the accused to be later successfully sued in civil proceedings for the results of the very same crime (see O.J. Simpson.)

Quote
It is not correct to call him a "dangerous criminal" when as far as we know, he may have had some weed and he may have had a gun.
But he certainly is a criminal.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2012, 06:46:57 AM »
Gotta go with Joe and GB here, nogodsforme.  Whether someone is a criminal depends on whether they've committed a crime.  Whether they've been convicted or not controls whether the state officially recognizes that they are a criminal.  But their status as a criminal is an objective one that is triggered the moment they commit a crime.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2012, 07:45:53 AM »
I realize that the criminal justice system in China is a bit different, but here in the US a suspect is supposed to be treated as innocent until convicted in a court of law. It is not correct to call him a "dangerous criminal" when as far as we know, he may have had some weed and he may have had a gun. Or the police planted it on him. Or they made a mistake. We don't know the facts because there has not been and will never be a trial.

Cute, nice try. I believe the US also has something called freedom of speech, am I right? The court system can treat him as innocent until proven guilty, but I am not bound by those rules as I'm not a police officer, judge, or in any other way associated with the court. As an independent citizen, I can call it as I see it, and I see a guy with a gun being arrested on an outstanding warrant. Therefore, "dangerous criminal" is an entirely appropriate description.
I was not "trying" anything other than to suggest accuracy. Being arrested and accused of a crime does not a criminal make or I am an international drug dealer.[1]
 1. Maybe someday I'll explain the details of that. :o

Joe is right.  Presumption of innocence applies only to the criminal justice system.  Individual citizens are free to hold any opinion they want, and they're also free to express that opinion.  Back when OJ Simpson was first arrested, for example, Vincent Bugliosi (then as now a famous prosecutor in Los Angeles) was very vocal about his certainty that Simpson was guilty of the two murders.  When others attempted to chastise him for it, he said the same thing.  It's also noteworthy, by the way, that the bar never attempted to penalize him for it, either.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2012, 09:08:35 AM »

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area. To make an arrest, a police officer has to have sufficient evidence to bring before a court. That evidence will indicate that a crime has been committed and that the suspect was responsible. It is therefore at the stage of arrest (see the prima facie evidence against Carter) that the person is assumed to have committed a crime.


I agree.  And that is why stop and frisk is so controversial.

If I were a passenger in a vehicle, (which may or may not have had one or both headlights off or malfunctioning), and if that vehicle was subsequently stopped by the police, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I, as a middle aged white woman, would probably not be taken out of the car and physically searched. 

If Chavis Carter had been a middle aged white lady with some pot and (maybe?) a gun, I'm pretty sure that no search would have taken place, no background check would have taken place, and the person would be alive. 

And I've said this before, but the thing about stop and search is that it is so invasive, and so humiliating, that someone who is completely innocent of ANYTHING becomes defensive, sometimes aggressive, sometimes combative, and ends up getting arrested and charged with resisting arrest when there was no reason to arrest the person in the first place.

The kid has pot on him.  Maybe a gun.  Maybe not.  Unlike Joe, I kind of think that the death penalty is pretty harsh. 

I've heard lawyers say that the best response to questions the police are not required to ask is "Am I free to go, officer?"  So if the cop says "What is your name?" the best response is "Am I free to go, officer?"  If the cop says to a passenger "Please step out of the car" the best response is "Am I free to go, officer?" 

If you are under arrest, they must tell you that you are under arrest.  If you are not under arrest, then you are free to go, or you are in that grey area known as "being detained."  If you are being detained, you do not need to answer any questions and you do not need to consent to a search.  The polices may pat down the OUTSIDE of your clothing.  The SOLE PURPOSE of a patdown of someone who is being detained is to determine if they are carrying any dangerous weapons. 

I've been to workshops with people who find it very empowering to learn that they are not required to answer questions that the police are not required to ask.  But I've never seen it work as smoothly as the civil rights lawyers say it should. 

I mean, it does for some folks.  Rand Paul, for example, didn't have it too bad when he refused a patdown by the TSA after setting off the metal detector. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/rand-paul-in-pat-down-standoff-with-tsa-in-nashville/ But some of us are more equal than others. 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2012, 09:39:04 AM »
My personal feeling is that it's usually good to cooperate with the police.

But I'm not black.  I don't really have anything more than an intellectual idea of what it might be like to not be sure if the policeman is going to be a bigot who'll abuse his power to make himself feel big.

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2012, 09:51:31 AM »
My personal feeling is that it's usually good to cooperate with the police.

A friend of mine who just finished law school says that you should never talk to the police.  I think it's wise advice, although I'm not a lawyer myself.  This video (with a law school professor and a former defense attorney) gives a good overview of why you shouldn't talk to the police, even if you haven't done anything wrong.  It's long, but trust me, it's worth it.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2012, 10:12:51 AM »
My personal feeling is that it's usually good to cooperate with the police.

But I'm not black.  I don't really have anything more than an intellectual idea of what it might be like to not be sure if the policeman is going to be a bigot who'll abuse his power to make himself feel big.
Try Driving off an Indian reservation at 1 A.M. Doesn't matter what colour you are if there is a cop around,you will likely get pulled over.

 Happens to me
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »
I agree.  And that is why stop and frisk is so controversial.

If I were a passenger in a vehicle, (which may or may not have had one or both headlights off or malfunctioning), and if that vehicle was subsequently stopped by the police, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I, as a middle aged white woman, would probably not be taken out of the car and physically searched.
And you know that this is because middle aged white women (I assume respectable and in a decent car) are massively under-represented in the jail population. And who are the police looking for?

Quote
If Chavis Carter had been a middle aged white lady with some pot and (maybe?) a gun, I'm pretty sure that no search would have taken place, no background check would have taken place, and the person would be alive.
See above. Also, women are statistically less likely to commit suicide by violent means.

Quote
And I've said this before, but the thing about stop and search is that it is so invasive, and so humiliating, that someone who is completely innocent of ANYTHING becomes defensive, sometimes aggressive, sometimes combative, and ends up getting arrested and charged with resisting arrest when there was no reason to arrest the person in the first place.
But you would not become defensive, sometimes aggressive, sometimes combative, would you?

Let me remind you that using yourself as an example is not very helpful. Carter was a wanted young black man with access to a gun and in possession of an illegal drug.

Quote
The kid has pot on him.  Maybe a gun.  Maybe not.  Unlike Joe, I kind of think that the death penalty is pretty harsh.
A person should be free to take his own life at any time. Yes, we should try to prevent it where consequences of not taking your own life are trivial.

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I've been to workshops with people who find it very empowering to learn that they are not required to answer questions that the police are not required to ask.
A list would be useful.
Quote
But I've never seen it work as smoothly as the civil rights lawyers say it should.
Always best to have a lawyer with you. 
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2012, 06:17:40 PM »
I guess the best advice is, 1)don't ever break the law and 2)don't come under the scrutiny of the police, even if you have not broken the law. Especially if you are brown, male and between 15-30. 

So, if you are brown, male and between 15-30, stay home at all times. Work and shop from home and take classes online. Don't attend parties, movies, sports events or other social activities. Don't drive, or take public transport, esp. at night. Detain and frisk any relatives, friends or neighbors before they enter your house or car. Detain and frisk yourself as well.  You can't trust anyone these days. You are going to end up in some kind of trouble sooner or later.

Never assume that you have the right to go about your life without being put under surveillance and/or being suspected and/or being accused of wrongdoing. Consider your presence as a public service, helping to keep the police on their toes and warning other, more innocent appearing people to be cautious. When it is inevitable that you will be detained, arrested, accused or frisked, relax and enjoy it. Learn to like being tasered. Learn to love jail.

Do not be on seizure medication, be hearing impaired, mentally ill or developmentally delayed in any way, because unexpected actions, slurred speech or unusual behavior will be treated as signs of criminality. Any show of presumed disrespect, anger or hostility will be an admission of guilt of whatever you are suspected of.

Best bet is to become white, female and middle aged. Easy.

Or, go big. Become the criminal you are going to be treated as. But don't commit any petty crimes, like selling small amounts of drugs or snatching purses, or breaking into houses. That is high risk, low return penny ante crap that will put you in jail with low-lifes for many years. Go to business school and learn finance. Then you can steal millions, cause hundreds of people to lose their homes, lose their jobs, lose their retirement funds. Some of them will abuse alcohol or drugs, hurt their families, or commit suicide, but you will be filthy rich and be able to proudly vote Republican. If you get caught, you will be able to hire an expensive lawyer, go to a very nice jail for a few years, and later, retire to the Caymans.

If you can't manage all that and are picked up by the police anyway, be sure to shoot yourself in the head and save everyone the trouble of actually proving that you did anything wrong.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 06:19:55 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2012, 08:04:23 PM »

And you know that this is because middle aged white women (I assume respectable and in a decent car) are massively under-represented in the jail population. And who are the police looking for?

That is true.  White people (and women) are indeed under-represented in the prison population compared to the representation in the general population.   But the data seems to indicate that in spite of increasingly aggressive stop and frisk activities here in NYC, specifically targeting black and latino men, of those stopped, more than twice as many white people are found to have weapons on them. 



Given that the purpose of a stop and search is to determine if someone has committed a crime, or is about to commit a crime OR to determine if the person is carrying a weapon, it seems like the NYC tactics aren't working too well.

Overall, the tactics have not proven too successful.



I think that we as a society really need to weigh the desire to find weapons and stop criminals with the human cost of more than a half a million people per year (in one city) being thrown against a brick wall with their hands over their heads and their arms spread while they are put through the humiliation of a random police search.  The psychological damage of being searched, or seeing a parent or older sibling degraded in this way needs to be addressed. 

Here in NYC, there is even a phone app to activate during a stop and search.  You can download it here.  http://www.nyclu.org/app

By the way - the police are only allowed to detain and search a person if that person is suspected of having committed a crime, or suspected of being about to commit a crime.  Unless the police decide to look for a weapon.  So why were the police searching Chavis Carter?  No media has reported that he was suspected of having committed a crime before he was detained.  So they were looking for a weapon?  Really, really incompetently looking for a weapon? 


Quote
A list would be useful.

"Am I free to go?"

"I'm going to remain silent."

"I don't consent to a search."

 
 You have rights during a traffic stop and when a police officer walks up to you on the street. Learn what your rights are and use them!
 1. Your Safety - You start with putting the police officer at ease, you know the one behind you with flashing lights. Pull over to a safe place, turn off your ignition, stay in the car and keep your hands on the steering wheel. At night turn on the interior lights. Keep your license, registration and proof of insurance close by like in the "sun visor."

 Be courteous, stay calm, smile and don't complain. Show respect and say things like "sir and no sir." Never bad-mouth a police officer, stay in control of your words, body language and your emotions. Keep your hands where the police officer can see them. Never touch a police officer and never run away!

 2. Never Talk To A Police Officer - The only questions you need to answer is your name, address, date of birth, sometimes your social security number but NOTHING else! Instead of telling the police officer who you are, give him your drivers license or your I.D. card. All the information the police officer needs to know about you, can be found on your i.d. card or drivers license. Don't volunteer any information to a police officer, if the cop ask you a question politely ask him "Am I free to go?" If he says yes then leave, if he says no then say I'm Going to Remain Silent.

 3. I'm Going to Remain Silence - The Supreme Court says you should never talk to a police officer without an attorney. The Supreme Court ruled you must speak up and SAY to the police officer "I'm going to remain silent" and then keep your mouth shut! How can you be falsely accused and charged with a crime, if you don't say anything? Never talk to a police officer, anything you say or do can and will be used against you at any time by the police.

 4. Just Say NO to Police Searches! - If a police officer didn't need your permission to search you, he wouldn't be asking you. Never give permission for a police officer to search you, your car or your home. If a police officer does search you, don't resist and keep saying "I don't consent to this search."

 5. Am I Free to Go? - As soon as the police officer ask you a question ask him, "Am I free to go?" You have to ask if you're "free to go," otherwise the police officer will think that you're voluntarily staying around to talk with him. If the police officer says that you're being detained or arrested tell the police officer, "I'm going to remain silent."


Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2012, 12:00:17 AM »
The police are supposed to read a person their Miranda Rights as well.  If memory serves, "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law; you have the right to an attorney, if you cannot afford one you will be appointed one by the court."

Anything I'm forgetting?

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2012, 12:03:37 AM »
I don't think the police have to read you the miranda warning unless you are arrested...
I think the police can conduct an investigation without reading anybody any warning...