Author Topic: Chavis Carter  (Read 10005 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 04:42:09 AM »
This speculation is simply copying the hysterical media by seeking sensationalist news and making wild assumptions without any data.

Best wait for some facts.

Quote
Would speculation about racism be reasonable if the story had occurred in Apartheid South Africa?  Why or why not?
The question you intended was  "If there are details we do not know, is speculation productive?"

It is not.

As an aside, (i) it did not happen in Apartheid South Africa. (ii) I suppose that you would agree that not every death (Black or White) in police custody in Apartheid South Africa was as a result of police action.

I am basically very disappointed by the lack of forensic thought in this topic - it seems to have been overtaken by liberal "right-on" political correctness, which is not at all helpful when a potential prison sentence is at stake; it sounds like hysterical mob rule.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 10:30:27 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2012, 06:17:53 AM »
The question you intended was  "If there are details we do not know, is speculation productive?"

No, that is not the question I intended.  -1 for the really obvious and inexcusable lie.

As an aside, (i) it did not happen in Apartheid South Africa.

Duh.

(ii) I suppose that you would agree that not every death (Black or White) in police custody in Apartheid South Africa was as a result of police action.

Sure.  Now are you willing to answer the question I actually asked, or would that take too much honesty?  Stating that I meant to ask an entirely different question and then answering that one, isn't honest.  It's frankly beneath you.

I am basically very disappointed by the lack of forensic thought in this topic - it seems to have been overtaken by liberal "right-on" political correctness, which is not at all helpful when a potential prison sentence is at stake; it sounds like hysterical mob rule.

The idea that the police story is accurate is no less speculation than the idea that it is not.  In absense of data, speculating - but not concluding - is reasonable.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2012, 09:01:25 AM »
No, that is not the question I intended.  -1 for the really obvious and inexcusable lie.

^ this.

Just tell Grey he misunderstood your question, and what you meant to express.

Keeps things productive and civil. If he's being obtuse, you can also opt out of the discussion. You've got a lot of options.


 





You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »
Greybeard -

I am trying to understand if you are dismissing concerns about this particular case as a "conspiracy theory" or if you are stating that you do not believe that a percentage of police officers target and often behave inappropriately towards people of color?

If you asserting that those of us who have concerns about this particular case are engaging in "conspiracy theories" I could point out even more examples of irregularities in this particular case.  As Nick pointed out, there is footage of the period immediately before the shooting, with a 3 1/2 minute gap, and then footage after the shooting.[1] What he failed to mention that there were two police cars, with two cameras.  Both of the cameras failed at the same time.  And why no test for gun powder residue?  Honestly, that might convince me that he did it.  And how did he go, in such a short period of time, to a call to his girlfriend telling her he would see her soon, to the decision to commit suicide?  Too many unanswered questions.

If you are asserting that there is not a tendency by a percentage of police officers, to target people of color, I could write many pages disputing that claim.  In a previous thread, I cited data on "stop and frisk" here in NYC.  Here is a glance:

Here is some stop and frisk data from NYC in recent years. 

•   In 2009, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 581,168 times.
510,742 were totally innocent (88 percent).
310,611 were black (55 percent).
180,055 were Latino (32 percent).
53,601 were white (10 percent).
289,602 were aged 14-24 (50 percent).

•   In 2010, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 601,285 times.
518,849 were totally innocent (86 percent).
315,083 were black (54 percent).
189,326 were Latino (33 percent).
54,810 were white (9 percent).

295,902 were aged 14-24 (49 percent).
•   In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
350,743 were black (53 percent).
223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
61,805 were white (9 percent).
341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).

•   In the first three months of 2012, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 203,500 times
181,457 were totally innocent (89 percent).
108,097 were black (54 percent).
69,043 were Latino (33 percent).
18,387 were white (9 percent).

Please note that about 17% of NYC residents are black, and about 18% are latino. Yet these two groups are a little bit overrepresented in the stop and frisk practices, and demonstrated by the above data.  White (non Hispanic) New Yorkers represent about 58% of the residents.
  http://www.nyclu.org/issues/racial-justice/stop-and-frisk-practices

I could also present data on incarceration rates of people of color vs both demographic information demonstrating the percentage of people of color in the general population, as well as data concerning average prison time served for comparable crimes committed by people of color vs white people.  But that has more to do with institutionalized racism rather than police action. 

I'm trying to understand your skepticism on this particular issue. 
 1. They released 41 minutes of video

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2012, 10:46:42 AM »
You are a little too free with your accusations of my lying, and to be frank, I don't like it.

Take some time and a dictionary and have a look at the meaning of lying, otherwise you may encounter other disappointed posters.

Your silly "Ooo what would happen if it were in South Africa?" Is not on topic and is neither here nor there.

Sure.  Now are you willing to answer the question I actually asked, or would that take too much honesty?
You really must concentrate on what honesty is - it apparently does not have the meaning you think.

To dismiss a question is neither to lie nor to be dishonest.


(Has someone been upsetting you?)

Quote
The idea that the police story is accurate is no less speculation than the idea that it is not.  In absense of data, speculating - but not concluding - is reasonable.
Were that what I was saying, it would be correct.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2012, 10:58:07 AM »
Greybeard -

I am trying to understand if you are dismissing concerns about this particular case as a "conspiracy theory" or if you are stating that you do not believe that a percentage of police officers target and often behave inappropriately towards people of color?



and



The figures seem to bear out that the police would be correct in targeting Blacks. In UK, the largest success against illegal weapons was "Operation Trident" focussing on Black on Black crime.

[Statistics showing that Police powers used more often against Blacks omitted)
Quote
I'm trying to understand your skepticism on this particular issue.
My scepticism stems from what I believe about the comments that followed the report of the death. As I said, at first I thought it impossible to shoot yourself in the head whilst your hands were cuffed behind your back. My knee-jerk reaction was, "If it's a murder, it is a particularly stupid one. Surely he was not shot by police? It makes no sense."

And then the rest of the posters, to my surprise, suddenly decided that the highest possibility was that the police had shot the man... For saying that atheists are supposed to ask questions, I was really astonished.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:03:26 AM by Graybeard »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2012, 11:46:36 AM »
Graybeard-

I think that you and I are looking at the same pieces of data, and interpreting them differently.

I see your charts as evidence of institutionalized racism.  I'm almost afraid to ask what conclusions you draw when you look at those charts.   

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2012, 12:27:05 PM »
Looking at raw numbers in America there are more white people in prison than any other race. However that is because there are more white people. If you look at percentages you see what Greybeard posted. There is a higher percentage by population of black people in prison than any other race.

You can look at the data one of two ways.

1. There is a higher percentage of black criminals

2. It's a result of institutional racism.


If one wants to determine the cause of these numbers one must conduct an exhaustive research to determine population and crime by location and income, factor in education and several other indicators of criminality.

You will most certainly find that in some areas minorities are overwhelmingly viewed with suspicion but which came first? The chicken or the egg?

In this specific case my first thought was negligent discharge and coverup. Doesn't excuse the accident if that is what happened. They SHOULD have and probably did admit that it was an accident to their boss, who then decided to protect them and made up this bullshit story about suicide.

But that raises another question...if it been a white boy they accidentally shot, would there be a cover up or would they just come out and admit to the public that they were trying to intimidate the boy and accidentally fired a round?

Tensions are always high when it comes to white on black violent crime...doubly so when it is white cop of black crime.

White on white = meh

Black on black = meh

Black on white = not generally reported but pointed at by some whites as justification whenever possible

White on black = grave injustice and moral outrage potentially leading to riots.

White on any other minority group = Racism

any other minority group on White = Not generally reported.

All this  ignores that fact that more than 80% of all violent crimes reported are committed by people against someone they know...in other words less than 20% of all  violent crimes involve strangers.

P.S.
I bring up violent crime because a boy was killed and the circumstances are dubious. It is a separate issue all together as to why they were pulled over in the first place. Which brings me to another question....where did his two friends go? Where they not witnesses to the events that unfolded? Not enough details in this story.


Edit to add:
After reading the story provided in the link I now know that the truck was being operated by a white boy so we can't say the police pulled them over for being black. However, it is my understanding that police have to have probable cause to search someone...especially passengers. Why did they pull the truck over? Why did they search all three? The black kid was detained because they found drugs in his possession. Why did they then let the other two go? They should have requested a K-9 unit to thoroughly search the truck.

All that aside...it is possible, however unlikely, that the kid did shoot himself.Especially if he was under the influence of certain chemicals and knew he was facing other charges. Some people make bad decisions while under the influence of drugs when faced with a harsh reality. So, is it a complete cover up?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:55:40 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »
Graybeard-

I think that you and I are looking at the same pieces of data, and interpreting them differently.

I see your charts as evidence of institutionalized racism.  I'm almost afraid to ask what conclusions you draw when you look at those charts.
No, we are looking at the same data, neither you nor I are saying that the police's job is to solve social inequality; they are there to pick up the pieces left as a result of governments through the centuries.

I am sure you are not saying that any significant proportion of those Blacks in prison are innocent, nor that crime amongst Blacks is not significantly higher than for other races.

I'm sure you have noted that the other non-white assault offenders are very low compared with Blacks.

I do have a difficulty with "victim mentality" or "Are you doing that because I'm Black?" when applied in the wrong places. Here, there is a specific case. In the case in question, it is common ground that the dead man was wanted in another State for an offence and was in possession of illegal drugs and he was black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

gives a population division of
White or European American   223,553,265   72.4 %
Black or African American   38,929,319   12.6 %

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43/10tbl43a.xls

Crimes for 2010:
TOTAL by Whites 7,066,154   69.4%
Total by Blacks 2,846,862   28.0%

It would appear that there is twice the propensity of Blacks to commit crime if Whites are taken as the norm.

This is not racism, institutionalise or otherwise, this is published data.

Are you now still happy with your interpretation of the data you quoted if we accept that the job of the police is to seek out crime and to arrest perpetrators?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2012, 03:02:48 PM »
I am not sure what Graybeard is on about. Why the hostility? A suspect (who happens to be a black kid) is shot dead under strange circumstances involving the police. And some of us are suspicious that race and/or police misconduct may figure in the case. How often are unarmed middle class white youths shot dead while involved with the police?[1]

The data you showed in your chart does not show that black people commit several times more crimes than white people. It shows that black people are arrested and convicted several times more often after committing crimes, or after being accused of committing crimes. (Witnesses do make mistakes and lie sometimes.) That is what you might expect if black people are watched, followed, searched and harrassed by authorities more often. White people who commit crimes might just get away with it more often, because they are not being watched as much.

I also found some interesting things in the breakdowns of types of crimes that different racial groups end up arrested for. The 69W-28B divide was pretty stable across all kinds of crimes, except for a select few. Blacks are far more likely to be arrested for: robbery and gambling. Whites are far more likely to be arrested for: arson, vandalism, liquor violations, drunkeness and DUI. 

Black robbers may be less competent at covering their tracks than the white ones-- maybe blacks should watch more CSI shows. And rob people who don't know you. Now the gambling made me think. Lots of whites gamble, but legally in licensed bars and casinos. Blacks might gamble more at house parties or unlicensed private clubs that are technically illegal although not much different from a casino. We can argue about whether or not this should even count as "crime".

It was alcohol related stuff that really made me wonder. Black folks drink and get drunk, drive drunk, etc. So why are the white rates so much higher than the "usual" 69% baseline? Is it because those are activities that come to the attention of the authorities because being in public drunk is part of the crime?

Same with arson and vandalism--public acts that are more likely to be seen and reported, regardless of race.

So I wonder how much of the perceived lawlessness of black people is due to being assumed to be up to no good, watched more, and therefore caught more, as opposed to whites who are assumed to be lawful unless seen doing something obviously wrong? If there was a Big Brother God camera on everyone all the time, catching people doing crimes in secret, which rates do you think would shoot up? Blacks or whites? Men or women? I think there would be a skyrocketing of the crime rate among elderly Asian females! :o

It reminds me that Palestinians are constantly searched at checkpoints in Israel, while Israelis are waved through. Amazingly, there are more Palestinians caught doing illegal things at checkpoints. (Which came first, the chicken or the egg?) If I wanted to smuggle stuff into Israel, I would pay an Israeli to drive it in. Cause the Palestinian checkpoint violation rate is so much higher than the Israeli one, despite there being fewer Palestinians..... &)
 1. According to Mr Blackwell, probably everyday but nobody reports it. White families just bury Junior in the back yard and get back to being oppressed by the world's minority groups. Meh. &)
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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »
You are a little too free with your accusations of my lying, and to be frank, I don't like it.

Take some time and a dictionary and have a look at the meaning of lying, otherwise you may encounter other disappointed posters.

Well, let's see.  I asked a question.  You stated outright that I did not mean to ask the question that I very clearly asked.  I am the one who gets to determine what I meant to ask.  You surely realize this, hence your disingenuous claim was a lie.  Or do you really think that I mistyped?

Your silly "Ooo what would happen if it were in South Africa?" Is not on topic and is neither here nor there.

Sure it is.  That you do not wish to go down that line of reasoning is understandable, as it damages your case.  I asked about how reasonable it might be to suspect racism if a case like this happens under a famously racist regime.  To many, America (or parts of it) comprises a famously racist regime.  See how that relates?

You really must concentrate on what honesty is - it apparently does not have the meaning you think.

Confronting difficult lines of thought that risk one's position is honest.  Lying by boldly claiming that others meant to say things other than what they very clearly meant to say is dishonest.  Right?

To dismiss a question is neither to lie nor to be dishonest.

To dodge a question with a bald-faced lie of your own is dishonest.  Which, for the record, is what you did.

Quote
The idea that the police story is accurate is no less speculation than the idea that it is not.  In absense of data, speculating - but not concluding - is reasonable.
Were that what I was saying, it would be correct.
Were which part what you were saying?  There are multiple subjects to which you could be referring here.
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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2012, 03:37:55 PM »
Just tell Grey he misunderstood your question, and what you meant to express.

How?  He doesn't seem to have misunderstood my question at all.  Indeed, he merely dismissed it and stated that I meant to say something different.  How does one reason with someone who does that?  He can simply claim, with regard to anything I say, that I meant to say something else.  And apparently, it is unreasonable to call him out on that.

Keeps things productive and civil. If he's being obtuse, you can also opt out of the discussion. You've got a lot of options.

True, one can always opt out.  I'd rather not, so how would you suggest dealing with Graybeard's dishonesty?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2012, 04:03:26 PM »
[1]
 1. According to Mr Blackwell, probably everyday but nobody reports it. White families just bury Junior in the back yard and get back to being oppressed by the world's minority groups. Meh. &)

Surely you understood that by "report" I meant "reported in the news" didn't you? If not then I apologize for not stating that to be perfectly clear. For the record most shootings, be it by police or civilians, don't get reported[2] at all. It's just the ones involving white cops and black suspects[3] that get national attention, why is that?

I tried to find a breakdown of victims of police shootings or "officer involved shootings" but apparently there is no mandate to collect that data. However a couple of Police Departments collect that data voluntarily. Here is the report for San Diego

http://www.sdcda.org/office/ois_review_rpt.pdf

spoiler alert

The vast majority of OIS's involve white cops and black/unknown victims.



 2. in the media
 3. Or mass shootings
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 04:05:19 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 05:18:15 PM »

This is not racism, institutionalise or otherwise, this is published data.


I would like to start out by saying that I spend a significant number of hours every week examining data concerning issues impacting on the lives of low income people.  Some of it is published data.  Some of it is data collected by my staff. 

Data is not simply data.  It is a portrait of a reality. 

Data demonstrates that low income communities have higher crime rates than high income communities.  There are a lot of reasons for this.  Low income people are more likely to commit the sorts of economic crimes that they will get caught doing, such as robbery.  Low income people are more likely to have poor nutritional levels, and people with lower nutritional levels are less likely to handle stress effectively.   Low income people are more likely to have undiagnosed/untreated illnesses, including mental illness.  And low income people tend to have lower educational levels, and more likely to not have education relative to their innate skills or intelligence.  People who understand that they are not living up to their potentials are often frustrated, and frustration often results in poor choices.  All of these factors contribute to crime levels. 

Data also demonstrates that in the US (and in many other parts of the world) the lowest income brackets are disproportionately populated by people of color.  So yes.  There are more people of color living with the effects of poverty, and poverty impacts on crime, and therefore, there are more crimes committed by people of color. 

Now if the economic marginalization of a significant percentage people of color is not in itself a symptom of institutionalized racism, let’s look at some of the factors that perpetuate that economic marginalization.  And there are a LOT of factors.  But let’s just pick a few.

There are volumes of data which demonstrate that lower educational levels are tied to lower lifetime earnings.  So for most people, education is the key to the journey out of poverty.  However, in the US, school systems are supported (almost universally) by the real estate tax money from the community that the school system serves.  (There is a base of federal funding, but not enough to really support a school.)  So low income communities live in lower cost property, and subsequently pay lower real estate taxes, so there is less money to support the schools.  So the kids attending the zoned schools tend to be in larger classrooms, with fewer educational supplies, and often (though not always) with less experienced/dedicated teachers.  There are fewer extracurricular activities.  Hell, there is less toilet paper.  These schools are less likely to have guidance counselors who sit the kids down and talk about prepping for college entrance exams and applying for financial aid, and parents who have not been through the college application process themselves are less likely to even know the steps that kids should take to get on a college tract.  And quite frankly, the colleges are less impressed with transcripts from these schools. 

I cannot think of a more vivid example of an institutionalized problem that plagues low income communities, generation after generation, and subsequently impacts on the disproportionally high percentage of people of color who live in those communities. 

Let’s take a quick look at incarceration itself as a self-perpetuating cycle.  But before we do, I think it is really important to point out that in the US, incarceration is an industry.  Publically traded, for profit corporations draw down federal funds for each incarcerated person.  Stock holders in some industries hope for increased sales, and lobbyists for those industries work to promote laws designed to increase sales.  Stock holders in the incarceration industry hope for increased incarceration rates, and lobbyists for that industry work to promote laws to increase arrests and length of sentences, in order to increase profits. 

Now there is the old meme about more young black men in prison than in college, and I don’t really know the data or numbers concerning whether that is still true.  I do know that there was an exponential increase in the incarceration of latinos during the post 9/11 period, both in prisons and in detention centers.  And remember, each incarceration means more profit for the industry.  To Obama’s credit, he closed down the “family” detention centers.  (Yeah, in the US we used to keep a lot of children in jail.  But we don’t talk about that. ) He also used his executive privilege to change some internal procedures within USCIS to decrease the incarceration rate of undocumented non-criminals. 

So what is the impact on a family when a father, mother, or both, are in prison?  Decreased income.  Lack of positive role models.  Lack of support.  Being shuffled around among relatives.  Growing up in foster care. While there are certainly children of incarcerated parents who grow up to be successful, well-adjusted human beings, there is little question that these kids are starting out with significant disadvantages compared to the general population.

Finally, let’s take a look at perception.  There have been blind studies of employers looking at resumes with equivalent educational levels and previous experience (I can look for these studies later if you like) that demonstrate that people with “black names” are less likely to be interviewed.  So if your name is Keisha or LaShawn, you are less likely to be interviewed than a person whose name is Susan or John, regardless of what else is on your resume. 

I do not see how you can look at these combined factors (and I certainly did not cite all of the factors) and NOT see a pattern of institutionalized racism. 

So let’s get to cops.  I cited the statistics concerning stop and search in NYC.  There is no doubt that a disproportionate number of those stopped and searched are people of color.   And if you are stopped because you fit the profile of someone who just robbed the bodega down the street, even if you had nothing to do with it, if you’ve got a joint in your pocket, you are getting arrested.  I’ve never been stopped and searched.  And during my youth, there were more than several occasions that I had a joint in my pocket.  But the chances of me getting caught were significantly lower than the chances of a person of color, especially a (young) man of color being caught.  But in NYC, cops don’t need probable cause for a stop and search.  They don’t even need to be looking for a suspect in a crime.  They can just stop random people on the street and search them.  And they mostly stop young black and Hispanic men. 

The stop and search itself is such an invasive process, that many hormonally charged young men take offense, and either say things or do things that end up leading them to jail even if they had previously been doing nothing wrong.  I’ve watched more stop and searches than I care to count, and I am always awed by the young people who are able to maintain their composure during this humiliating process.  But some aren’t. 

Finally, we have many well-documented cases of police brutality against people of color.  A GROUP of police officers sodomized Abner Louima with a plunger for a minor offence.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima  Why on earth would a GROUP of police officers sodomize a suspect with a plunger?

Rodney King’s brutal assault was videotaped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King  There were riots, but not a revolution, when the police officers who beat him were acquitted.
Amadou Diallo was unarmed and shot 41 times at close range.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_shooting

In my boro, Sean Bell was shot 50 times and killed the night before his wedding after getting drunk at his bachelor’s party.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident 

I’m pretty sure that out of all of these cases, only one cop went to prison. 

Cops KNOW that they don’t suffer serious consequences when they take their frustrations out on young black men.  Even when they sodomize them.  Even when they kill them.

Recently, here in NYC, a well-loved city council member, Jumaame Williams, and a senior aid to another elected official, were brutally thrown to the ground and handcuffed AFTER having shown the police their official identification in an attempt to get through a street that was barricaded off to facilitate the passage of elected officials going to a VIP brunch.  Why would the police do that?  Would you like to see the video tape of that assault?

I know Councilmember Jumaame Williams.  I’ve worked with him.   I know a lot of people who have been assaulted by police.  He is the first elected official I know who has been assaulted by police.

I’ve also worked with the police.  On multiple issues.  About 15 years ago, when livery cab drivers (mostly latinos, some Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian) represented the largest occupational homicide rate in NYC, I was part of a campaign to protect these drivers.  I went to roll calls at police stations to talk about the hazards that these workers face in their jobs, facing away from their assailants, often, with limited English proficiency, having trouble understanding the instructions of their assailants while a gun is held to their heads, or a knife to their throats.  I was shocked by these roll call meetings.  Over and over again, rather than expressing concern about ways to protect these workers, I listened to cops, over and over again, tell me that the drivers were “dirty.”  That they urinated in soda bottles, and threw garbage out of their cab windows.  Dirty.  These men, who risked their lives every night to earn a minor living were, in the views of many police officers, dirty.

Some cops are wonderful human beings.  They also risk their lives every day.  But most of the beat cops in my neighborhood stop and smile at my daughter.  We have cops on horseback now, (due to narrow, one way streets) and they often let my little girl pet their horses.  A friend of mine was robbed last year, at knifepoint, with a baby and a 4 year old in her care.  The cops who responded were great. 

I think that conscious efforts by the NYPD to recruit people of color (especially bilingual/multilingual people of color) to the police force has had a really positive impact on both the ways that the cops perceive the communities that they serve, and the ways in which the communities perceive the cops. 

But I continue to suspect police gross misconduct in the death of Chavis Carter. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 05:36:01 PM »

This is not racism, institutionalized or otherwise, this is published data.


I would like to start out by saying that I spend a significant number of hours every week examining data concerning issues impacting on the lives of low income people.  Some of it is published data.  Some of it is data collected by my staff. 

Data is not simply data.  It is a portrait of a reality. 

Data demonstrates that low income communities have higher crime rates than high income communities.  There are a lot of reasons for this.  Low income people are more likely to commit the sorts of economic crimes that they will get caught doing, such as robbery.  Low income people are more likely to have poor nutritional levels, and people with lower nutritional levels are less likely to handle stress effectively.   Low income people are more likely to have undiagnosed/untreated illnesses, including mental illness.  And low income people tend to have lower educational levels, and more likely to not have education relative to their innate skills or intelligence.  People who understand that they are not living up to their potentials are often frustrated, and frustration often results in poor choices.  All of these factors contribute to crime levels.
Had you asked, I could have told you that. Poverty, ignorance and poor social skills go hand in hand. You very rarely see statistics on the legitimately wealthy imprisoned for committing crime, and when they do it is usually white-collar crime, not nasty crimes of violence.

However, you are confusing race and poverty. The normal distribution graph will tell you that poverty is evenly spread when taken by race.

This confusion makes you feel that blacks, to the exclusion of whites and other races, are solely the victims of poverty - this is institutionalized racism... it only happens to blacks. Your own work should show you that it doesn't. The essence is poverty not race, yet you ignore the poverty of other races - how fair is that?

The other point is that if the poor commit proportionally more crimes, then where should the police be looking, in the pleasant area or the run-down ones?

Quote
But I continue to suspect police gross misconduct in the death of Chavis Carter.
I'm glad that you can make such decisions on so little evidence - You're a theist aren't you? Nevertheless, there may have been misconduct - they could be negligent in not finding the gun.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 05:50:25 PM »

However, you are confusing race and poverty. The normal distribution graph will tell you that poverty is evenly spread when taken by race.

This confusion makes you feel that blacks, to the exclusion of whites and other races, are solely the victims of poverty - this is institutionalized racism... it only happens to blacks. Your own work should show you that it doesn't. The essence is poverty not race, yet you ignore the poverty of other races - how fair is that?


Not at all.  In fact, quite the contrary.  I think that I was very conscious about saying "people of color" when I meant people of color, and naming specific racial and ethnic groups when their circumstances were different from those of other communities. 

And poverty is most certainly not distributed evenly among different racial groups, proportionate to their representation in the population.  Perhaps it is in some individual countries - I couldn't say for sure.  But not in the US.  And not globally. 

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 06:00:04 PM »

Children Under 18 Living in Poverty, 2010

Category

Number (in thousands)

Percent

All children under 18

16, 401

22.0

White only, non-Hispanic

5,002

12.4

Black

4,817

38.2

Hispanic

6,110

35.0

Asian

547

13.6
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2012, 06:59:32 PM »
I think this case needs to be investigated more thoroughly.  It's entirely possible that the cops are telling the truth, and indeed they should not be presumed guilty simply because the circumstances are unusual in this case.  On the other hand, some things don't seem to fit that story, and it's worthwhile checking them out, if only to clear the situation up.

I'd strongly recommend that nobody here make any speculative judgment calls based on the way things appear.  There's already going to be plenty of people reacting with their gut and emotions in this situation, and we don't need to do so here on the forum.  It doesn't matter what speculation would have been reasonable in apartheid South Africa, or in the American Jim Crow South for that matter, because while Arkansas is in the South, it is no longer the Jim Crow era.  What matters is what happened here, in this case.  It's perfectly reasonable to demand a more in-depth investigation into the facts of this case, but it is not reasonable in my opinion to jump to conclusions about what happened.

At the very least, they need to check the caliber of the bullet that killed him against the gun that he supposedly shot himself with.  It used a .380 caliber bullet, that should be easy to check, but I saw no mention of the bullet in the autopsy report.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2012, 07:14:10 PM »
...but I saw no mention of the bullet in the autopsy report.

No mention of bullet.  No mention of trajectory.  No mention of gunpowder.  No mention of his hands or wrists.

But I learned a great deal about the length and style of his hair from the medical examiner's report.  And more than I would ever want to know about the relative health of his colon, pancreas, liver, and all sorts of things that had nothing to do with his death. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »
I still wanna know where the hell that gun came from. You would think the police would want to know, too. It's their lives in danger if a suspect that has been searched twice and handcuffed still manages to produce a loaded gun.  And I hope the police don't stop paying attention to a crime suspect just because he is in the police car.

That Chavis Carter sounds like the reincarnation of Houdini. Maybe he swallowed the gun while the cops had their backs turned, and then regurgitated it in the back seat of the squad car. Next, having demonstrated all this consummate skill at outsmarting the police, although out of his mind on drugs, accidentally shot himself in the head with his non-dominant hand. All while handcuffed behind his back.

Coulda happened. I think I saw Criss Angel do it on youtube.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2012, 07:39:43 PM »
There are plenty of details yet to be forthcoming. It is always a good idea to search other news sources when it comes to any national headline to see what information is left out and what new information has been added.

The huff story said nothing of this:

Also released were details from Carter's cell phone. Police say text messages on Carter's phone show he had stolen the gun in question from a woman or individual in Jonesboro. Police say other text messages show he had the gun on him to bring to another individual, Brandon Renald Baker. Baker is currently in the Greene County Jail on aggravated burglary charges, and admitted to police on Tuesday that he did request the gun from Carter.

Police also say that Carter's girlfriend told them he called her from the rear of the police car and told her that he loved her and that he had a gun on him in the rear of the police car and that he was scared.

Police also readily admit that Officer Marsh missed the gun on the initial pat-down of Carter.


and

For the autopsy, Arkansas' state crime lab says it didn't perform gunshot residue testing on a man fatally shot in the head while handcuffed in a patrol car because it doesn't do that kind of analysis on victims of homicides or suicides.

Jonesboro Police Chief Michael Yates told The Associated Press that the department had requested gunshot residue testing in the shooting death of 21-year-old Chavis Carter.

The lab's chief criminalist, Lisa Channell, told the AP that kind of the testing can indicate whether a person was in an environment with gunshot residue, but not whether he or she pulled the trigger of a gun.



These little revelations don't prove anything more than all the facts aren't in yet.

Is is shady? Yup. Is it a clear case of police brutality? Not yet. Is it racially motivated? Hard to tell really.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2012, 07:43:58 PM »
That Chavis Carter sounds like the reincarnation of Houdini. Maybe he swallowed the gun while the cops had their backs turned, and then regurgitated it in the back seat of the squad car. Next, having demonstrated all this consummate skill at outsmarting the police, although out of his mind on drugs, accidentally shot himself in the head with his non-dominant hand. All while handcuffed behind his back.

Or maybe they didn't search very thoroughly because they didn't perceive him as a threat in particular. The story I linked to in my previous post says they put him in the back of the car the first time without handcuffs after a preliminary search.

Later when they took him out of the car to handcuff him and arrest him they searched him again but by this point he had hidden the gun in the backseat, which they didn't bother to search.

If they thought he was a threat they probably would have handcuffed him the first time instead of just separating him from his buddies for questioning.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 05:09:34 AM »
I asked about how reasonable it might be to suspect racism if a case like this happens under a famously racist regime.  To many, America (or parts of it) comprises a famously racist regime.  See how that relates?
No. And neither does another poster.
I'd strongly recommend that nobody here make any speculative judgment calls based on the way things appear.  There's already going to be plenty of people reacting with their gut and emotions in this situation, and we don't need to do so here on the forum.  It doesn't matter what speculation would have been reasonable in apartheid South Africa, or in the American Jim Crow South for that matter, because while Arkansas is in the South, it is no longer the Jim Crow era.  What matters is what happened here, in this case.  It's perfectly reasonable to demand a more in-depth investigation into the facts of this case, but it is not reasonable in my opinion to jump to conclusions about what happened.

And here:

There are plenty of details yet to be forthcoming. It is always a good idea to search other news sources when it comes to any national headline to see what information is left out and what new information has been added.

The huff story said nothing of this:

Also released were details from Carter's cell phone. Police say text messages on Carter's phone show he had stolen the gun in question from a woman or individual in Jonesboro. Police say other text messages show he had the gun on him to bring to another individual, Brandon Renald Baker. Baker is currently in the Greene County Jail on aggravated burglary charges, and admitted to police on Tuesday that he did request the gun from Carter.

Police also say that Carter's girlfriend told them he called her from the rear of the police car and told her that he loved her and that he had a gun on him in the rear of the police car and that he was scared.

Police also readily admit that Officer Marsh missed the gun on the initial pat-down of Carter.


and

For the autopsy, Arkansas' state crime lab says it didn't perform gunshot residue testing on a man fatally shot in the head while handcuffed in a patrol car because it doesn't do that kind of analysis on victims of homicides or suicides.

Jonesboro Police Chief Michael Yates told The Associated Press that the department had requested gunshot residue testing in the shooting death of 21-year-old Chavis Carter.

The lab's chief criminalist, Lisa Channell, told the AP that kind of the testing can indicate whether a person was in an environment with gunshot residue, but not whether he or she pulled the trigger of a gun.



These little revelations don't prove anything more than all the facts aren't in yet.

Is is shady? Yup. Is it a clear case of police brutality? Not yet. Is it racially motivated? Hard to tell really.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 07:02:34 AM »
That is not what jaimehlers said.  He said (basically) that since America does not comprise a famously racist regime, my comparison doesn't matter.  But what I'd said (and you just quoted) is that to those who disagree with that assessment, there is definitely a link.  It all depends on whether one views America as prevalently racist.  Jaimehlers disagrees that America has a racism problem.  Fine.  That's his opinion.  Do you share it?

Jay's new information does seem to quash the justification for any "racial motivation" speculation.  So be it.  Reasonable speculation is typically curtailed by new information.  That's how new information works.

EDIT:  By the way, you didn't mean to say "no" to my quoted question in your post.  You meant to say "yes".  If it's not dishonest for you to declare that I meant to say something different, then...well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 07:58:16 AM »
What I meant, specifically, is that trying to compare this situation to one that would have happened in an apartheid society is not valid.  And yes, Jim Crow was essentially apartheid - racial segregation enforced through legislation.  That isn't the case in the Arkansas of today.

There is a big difference between a society which is known to have (or have had) problems with racism, and one that enshrines it into law.  At least in this country, people who are the victims of crimes based on racism have the recourse of the legal system to try to correct it, and can reasonably expect, and demand, an investigation into a situation like this.  In South Africa and the Jim Crow South, that not only wouldn't have happened, it's entirely likely that the law would have landed with both feet on anyone trying to get it - as, in fact, it did in the cases of the reformers who spent their lives trying to correct that horrendous injustice.

Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela both spent time in jail - in Mandela's case, decades - in order to get people to pay attention to how awful the apartheid system was.  MLK ended up a martyr because of it.  But thanks to their efforts, a situation like this one, where a black person dies under rather unusual circumstances in the back of a patrol car, gets additional investigation until they've gotten to the bottom of it, rather than being quashed and suppressed by the authorities to the point where someone who even asked about it would have been risking a 'visit' from police.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 11:13:14 AM »
Okay. So there is evidence that he had a gun hidden on his person. Now what about the part about him shooting himself in the head? Was it an accident, the gun going off while he was trying to throw it out the window? Was he trying to shoot the police--seems pretty crazy, since he would end up suiciding by cop if he tried it.  Was he really trying to kill himself?

I guess we will never know that part, unless someone comes forward and testifies that he had been suicidal, had left a note for his mother, had called a suicide hotline, had given away all his possessions, etc.

It's a sad story any way you look at it.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2012, 12:05:34 PM »
EDIT:  By the way, you didn't mean to say "no" to my quoted question in your post.  You meant to say "yes".  If it's not dishonest for you to declare that I meant to say something different, then...well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
Yeah, whatever...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2012, 12:53:47 PM »
Good.  And Brakeman really meant to give me a +1 with the comment "Beautiful".  Wow, I love how it's not dishonest to say stuff like this.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2012, 01:16:51 PM »
in-thread discussion of mod action

See my PM.

No more in-thread discussion.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.