Author Topic: Chavis Carter  (Read 9286 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Chavis Carter
« on: August 20, 2012, 01:09:50 PM »
So 21 year old Chavis Carter is in a car with two friends, when they get pulled over after a report that there was a "suspicious car" in the neighborhood.  The three people get searched, they find a tiny bag of pot on Chavis,  handcuff him and run a background check on him.  They find out he has an outstanding warrant for possession in another state, so they unhandcuff him, search him again, re-handcuff him, and put him in the back of the police car.  They let the other two people go. 

At some point the young man calls his girlfriend to tell her that he was going to be late, and that he would see her when he got out of the police station.

And then, he changes his mind, produces a loaded gun that he had successfully hidden from police during his two body searches, and with his hands handcuffed behind his back, seated in the back of a police car, he decides to commit suicide with his hidden gun, and still handcuffed, the left handed Carter successfully shoots himself in the right temple. 

And the police didn't even notice.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/20/chavis-carter-autopsy_n_1812233.html

I know that this is not a religious issue.  But I can't help but feel that it requires a real act of faith to buy this story.

I was SHOCKED to see the headlines declaring that the autopsy confirms suicide.   

The medical examiners report is online right now, with the words "Do Not Copy" written all over it.  So it might not be on the internet for long. 

And just in case you are going to defer to the medical professionals and their opinion about the cause of death, please read the closing opinion - which basically said he died of a gunshot wound and the police said it was suicide. 

OPINION:
In consideration of the circumstances of death and after autopsy of the body, it is our opinion that
Chavis Carter, a 21-year-old black male, died of a gunshot wound of the head. The agencies
responsible for the investigation of his death were the Jonesboro Police Department and the
Craighead County Coroner's Office. They reported that he was detained during a traffic stop.
He was cuffed and placed into a police car, where apparently he produced a weapon, and despite
being handcuffed, shot himself in the head.

At autopsy, the cause of death was a perforating gunshot wound of the head. At the time of
discharge, the muzzle of the gun was placed against the right temporal scalp. The bullet
perforated the cranial cavity, causing brain injuries, skull fractures, and death. The bullet exited
the left side of the head. The manner of death is based on both autopsy findings and the
investigative conclusions of the Jonesboro Police Department.
MANNER OF DEATH: Suicide

http://www.kait8.com/story/19321242/medical-examiners-report-into-the-chavis-carter-shooting


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 01:27:00 PM »
The handgun was just standing its ground.

Where the eff did that gun come from? Until they come up with an explanation for that, I am not going to buy the story that a young guy who was handcuffed in a car after being searched, managed to shoot himself in the head.

Why was I not at all surprised to learn that he was black? Reminds me of Steve Biko's death in South Africa. The police there said he beat himself to death with a chair while handcuffed.

Young black men in police custody perform more amazing stunts than Cirque du Soleil.  >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 01:29:20 PM »
the police released a video of a a guy performing the act of shooting one's self as they have said.
they didn't release a video of a uniformed officer performing the act of execution...
I wonder why...

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 01:31:39 PM »
And then, he changes his mind, produces a loaded gun that he had successfully hidden from police during his two body searches, and with his hands handcuffed behind his back, seated in the back of a police car, he decides to commit suicide with his hidden gun, and still handcuffed, the left handed Carter successfully shoots himself in the right temple.

To say that this is suspicious is putting it mildly.  For a cop to miss a handgun in a patdown -- twice -- is nearly inconceivable.  It's also nearly inconceivable that one could commit suicide in such a fashion while cuffed, or that this man would choose to kill himself over what would probably have been a misdemeanor at most.

On the other hand, though... what possible motive could the arresting officers have for committing a murder and setting it up to look like a suicide?  After all, even if the inquiry officially says that their story is one hundred percent true, they're still going to be in extremely hot water.  They're likely to be facing dismissal from the force and possible civil and criminal proceedings as well.  Missing a handgun on a patdown is a mistake that even the greenest rookie shouldn't have made, and for the suspect to have subsequently killed himself with it is the kind of thing that police departments take very seriously.

I'm not sure what to think about this.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 01:35:22 PM »
the police released a video of a a guy performing the act of shooting one's self as they have said.

No, they didn't.

Quote
The autopsy report comes days after police released dashboard camera video recorded the night Carter was shot in Jonesboro, about 130 miles northeast of Little Rock. Part of the video showed Carter being patted down and ended before officers found Carter slumped over and bleeding in the back of a patrol car as was described in a police report. Police later released additional video they said was recorded after Carter was found.

Neither included the moment they say Carter shot himself, and the footage did little to resolve questions about how the shooting could have happened.

{bold mine}

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/20/chavis-carter-autopsy_n_1812233.html
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 01:44:21 PM »
yes, they released a "re-enactment"....

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 01:48:47 PM »
yes, they released a "re-enactment"....

This is only a reenactment.  At most, it would resolve the question of whether it is possible to shoot yourself in the head while cuffed.  It would say nothing about whether it actually happened in this case.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 01:50:02 PM »
yes, they released a "re-enactment"....

This is only a reenactment.  At most, it would resolve the question of whether it is possible to shoot yourself in the head while cuffed.  It would say nothing about whether it actually happened in this case.
yeah, but they didn't show a "re-enactment" of a uniformed officer shooting him in the head...
I wonder why....

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 01:51:24 PM »
yeah, but they didn't show a "re-enactment" of a uniformed officer shooting him in the head...
I wonder why....

Do you really, or are you merely being rhetorical?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline none

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 01:53:04 PM »
it would be fun to explore the answer.
did you see the video at about 5:00 minutes and later?

Offline Nick

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 02:16:45 PM »
Well, the 2 kids released were white.  The kid arrested was black.  Can it be determined if the gun was one of the cops?  Very strange case.  It does not pay to be a minority and poor in this country.  Seems like the new program is just elimination.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 02:22:53 PM by Nick »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 02:20:38 PM »
For a cop to miss a handgun in a patdown -- twice -- is nearly inconceivable.  It's also nearly inconceivable that one could commit suicide in such a fashion while cuffed, or that this man would choose to kill himself over what would probably have been a misdemeanor at most.

Yeah.  The cops missed the handgun (twice) but found a little baggie of pot.

The handgun was just standing its ground.

Where the eff did that gun come from? Until they come up with an explanation for that, I am not going to buy the story that a young guy who was handcuffed in a car after being searched, managed to shoot himself in the head.

Why was I not at all surprised to learn that he was black? Reminds me of Steve Biko's death in South Africa. The police there said he beat himself to death with a chair while handcuffed.

Young black men in police custody perform more amazing stunts than Cirque du Soleil.  >:(

Ummm.  If we accept that it is a suicide, we are not going to investigate where this amazingly hidden gun came from.

It is noteworthy that the medical examiners did not make any note of gun power residue on his hands.  They did, however, take the time to measure the length of his hair, write about the "unremarkable" status of his liver, respiratory system, pancreas, his thyroid, and small and large bowels. 

Now I just want to scream from the rooftops that the medical examiner did not provide any evidence that the cause of death was suicide, other than the fact that the police said it was suicide. 

This was NOT a scientific investigation. 

It was a rubber stamp on the police report. 


Thanks for sharing the video None.  I've been following this case for the past few weeks, and that was definitely worth watching. 

Offline Nam

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2012, 02:33:59 PM »
Sounds a bit hinky, to me.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline bosey926

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2012, 03:55:06 PM »
Well, the 2 kids released were white.  The kid arrested was black.  Can it be determined if the gun was one of the cops? Very strange case.  It does not pay to be a minority and poor in this country.  Seems like the new program is just elimination.

     Yes.  If the investigation were to go in that direction (as it seems to be the only available path via logic), then both officers weapons would be confiscated and tested as they are placed on either payed suspension or full suspension; respective to the commanding officer's feelings surrounding the event and more importantly, the evidence given on it. 
     If they found the bullet that exited the young man's head, and it was still in decent condition (enough that it can be examined under a microscope), they would test fire not only both of the officer's issued weapons, but this .380 that is supposedly the weapon in suspicion as well.  Then examine the vertical engravings that are made along every bullet that exits the barrel of every firearm, (immaterial to type or caliber) and compare them to the slug that exited the victim's skull (again if it exists).
     You see, police officers (in most every city I know of), are issued Glock .40 cal semi-automatic handguns as their standard sidearm.  That is, unless they prefer another weapon, and the city's armory has that respective weapon, or they choose to register their own.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2012, 05:31:54 PM »
I keep wracking my brain about this case.  And as Pianodwarf pointed out, it is very odd.  What motivation would a cop have to kill a handcuffed young man?

Here is my theory.  It doesn't explain where the gun came from, or whether it was one of the cops' guns, or a gun found in the car or on the kid or on the street.

But I think that one of the cops was taunting the kid with a gun when he was handcuffed, and the gun went off. 

The cops made the decision to call it a suicide, rather than implicate the cop.

I really can't think of another explanation. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 07:08:59 PM »
That sounds reasonable.  I can't think of why a cop would do that on purpose after having the kid in cuffs.

That would be a hell of a thing to have to live with.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 02:06:44 PM »
^^  Pulp Fiction.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 02:52:55 PM »
I don't go with the conspiracy theory. I was dubious until I saw the re-enactment. A gun can be hidden from a superficial pat-down. The usual places are the small of the back and between the buttocks[1].

It seems to me that Carter made his move to hide the weapon when he realised that the cops would be searching him and the car - he couldn't leave it in the car because his prints were all over it. He was already wanted and was again in possession of drugs - he also had a handgun - he was probably looking at prison time.

The next questions are
(i) "Whom would the death benefit?" Certainly not the police who would look good bringing in a felon wanted in another state.
(ii) "If you did want to shoot him, why do it in the back of a police car and whilst he was wearing handcuffs?"

Were the police negligent in their search? "Yes."
Who is usually at risk in a badly performed search? "The police."
 1. Make sure the safety's on
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nick

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 02:55:48 PM »
I heard today that he had meth, oxicontin, etc. in his system.  So the part of making him a bad guy has started.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 03:08:11 PM »
I heard today that he had meth, oxicontin, etc. in his system.  So the part of making him a bad guy has started.

That was not part of the original medical examiner's report.  Which I just clicked on, and is now not available. Wish I had copied the whole thing while it was up. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 04:06:53 PM »
I heard today that he had meth, oxicontin, etc. in his system.  So the part of making him a bad guy has started.

I told you that the gun was just standing its ground.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 12:49:39 AM »
Holy crap I don't even live in America and yet by the time I had finished reading the OP I knew the guy had to be black. Unbe-fucken-lieveable.

I keep wracking my brain about this case.  And as Pianodwarf pointed out, it is very odd.  What motivation would a cop have to kill a handcuffed young man?

Here is my theory.  It doesn't explain where the gun came from, or whether it was one of the cops' guns, or a gun found in the car or on the kid or on the street.

But I think that one of the cops was taunting the kid with a gun when he was handcuffed, and the gun went off. 

The cops made the decision to call it a suicide, rather than implicate the cop.

I really can't think of another explanation. 

Sounds plausable...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 03:02:41 PM »
I find it disturbing that people are willing to think that the cops are the bad guys merely because the dead man is black.

Not all cops are bad, not all Blacks are good - we are just people.

Imagine that the report had been "a man shot himself whilst handcuffed". Would that have been cause to say there must have been a murder?

What about. "A white man shot himself whilst handcuffed and in the custody of Black police officers"? Who is to blame here? Did the Black police officers shot the man?

This speculation is simply copying the hysterical media by seeking sensationalist news and making wild assumptions without any data.

Best wait for some facts.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Quesi

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 03:32:05 PM »
Graybeard-

I certainly do not think that all cops are bad.  But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there is evidence that a percentage of cops have behaved badly while on duty.  Being a cop is a stressful job.  I've done a significant amount of work with cops in my community, and what always strikes me is that they see "bad guys" everywhere.  And I guess that is their job.  While I look at my community, and feel a rush of joy and pride at the diversity of the residents, the gracious, pre-war architecture, the narrow, tree-lined residential streets, and the thriving business community.   The police see a bunch of people who don't speak the language they speak, have body language that they can't read effectively, roaming narrow one-way streets that make pursuit of a suspect a challenge, and 24 hour businesses that need constant surveillance. 

Data demonstrates that men of color are more likely to be stopped and frisked.  I put up a link on the topic a while back, and I can look for it again if you want.  In this case, they stopped a car with three young people in it, one of whom was black, and frisked all of them.  They found a little baggie of pot on the black guy, and also found an outstanding warrant for not showing up at a court appearance on a previous possession charge.  So they cuffed him and held him.

If the vehicle had contained all white kids, would they have been stopped and frisked?  We will never know.

But so far, the cops seem to be doing what it is that they are supposed to do.

But before they could get themselves back to the police station with their suspect, he was dead.  He called his girlfriend, and asked her to come and meet him at the police station so that someone would be there when he got out.  And then, he changed his mind about seeing his girlfriend, produced a loaded, hidden gun, and then, while handcuffed, managed to shoot himself in the right temple?  In spite of being left handed?

None of this strikes you as strange?

Now in terms of bad cops, well, there are some.  There are some racist cops too.  Coincidentally, the police chief overseeing the department that conducted the search, and ended up with a dead suspect, is one of those cops. 

Yates, who recently claimed it would have been “quite easy” for Carter to shoot himself with his hands double-locked behind his back, has a murky history in race relations. Yates came to the Jonesboro Police Department after his controversial resignation  as police chief in Americus, Georgia. The local NAACP chapter launched a campaign to get Yates fired after he conducted an illegal background check on the NAACP vice president, who publicly complained about Americus police brutality at city council meetings. Yates stepped down voluntarily in 2004.

But Yates continued to stir up controversy upon moving to Arkansas. He made headlines again during the “Obama Riot”  of 2008, an altercation between police and a predominantly black crowd of students celebrating Obama’s election at Arkansas State University. According to two female witnesses , about 30 officers arrested several of the 60 or 70 celebrating students, threw them to the ground, and repeatedly kicked one man in the stomach and head. Yates told a different version of events, in which there were 200-250 students who set fire to a fence, fired weapons and attacked officers.
  http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/14/687881/civil-rights-group-calls-for-jonesboro-police-chiefs-resignation/

Tensions between Chief Yates and communities of color lead to his resignation in another state, after the NAACP started a campaign to have him fired.  And he also oversaw the "Obama riot" in which a bunch of young people (mostly people of color) were out celebrating the election of President Obama.  Police brutality is widely reported among those whose celebrations were interrupted by the police that night. 

I don't think that this is a nice guy.  But he takes care of his own.  And in this case, I believe he took care of his subordinates. 

And what about the medical report?  I am certainly no forensic expert, and I have admittedly learned nearly everything I know about crime forensics from tv shows, but can anyone explain to me why there was no mention in the medical examiner's report of gun powder on the kid's hand?  If it were there, that would seem to suggest that he fired the gun.  But I read the report, and that fact was suspiciously absent from the data. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 06:16:41 PM »
What is telling is the fact that people of color in the US assume that they will be treated unfairly by the police.

A fellow professer teaches criminal justice classes. I sat in while the students, aged 17-24,  discussed their interactions with the police. The young men of color had numerous stories of being followed, harrassed, searched, disrepected and arrested. One guy reported being followed by police and accused of committing a crime when he had just left church. The hurt and anger in his voice were so clear--how could he have done anything wrong in the 5 minutes between leaving his mother at church and getting home? 

On the other hand, the young white women reported only polite and helpful interactions with police. One girl had left a party drunk and underaged. She was picked up by police. Instead of ending up frisked, strip searched, arrested and in jail, she had been escorted home safely to her parents by the police. White students reported seeing their friends of color mistreated by police while they, presumably involved in the same suspicious activities, were let go. (Chavis Carter's white companions?)

Back in the 1980's there was a scandal when Chicago police were stopping black people with something wrong on their cars. And searching the cars, frisking, and even strip searching the people. No other cause than a broken tail light or expired license plates. Very few of these dozens of searches resulted in drugs or weapons or even an arrest. A complete waste of police time and major rift between the police and the community.

My mother was one of the people pulled over because she was driving with out-of-state plates. A schoolteacher in her 50's, when the police started talking about strip searching her, she began to cry, which reined them in. She lodged a complaint and was surprised to find that the was common in poor neighborhoods. But it only became a scandal when middle class women as well as poor men and women started to be treated the same way, and complained to the media.

It would be naive to think that race and class don't matter when the police look at people. And it does not always matter what race the police are. One study IIRC found that black police are more violent towards black suspects when white police are present. It seems that blue is more important than either black or white.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Gohavesomefun

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 06:41:32 PM »
Shaking my head in disbelief right now, such a frustrating and horrifying report.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 07:02:19 PM »
I find it disturbing that people are willing to think that the cops are the bad guys merely because the dead man is black.

Not all cops are bad, not all Blacks are good - we are just people.

Imagine that the report had been "a man shot himself whilst handcuffed". Would that have been cause to say there must have been a murder?

What about. "A white man shot himself whilst handcuffed and in the custody of Black police officers"? Who is to blame here? Did the Black police officers shot the man?

This speculation is simply copying the hysterical media by seeking sensationalist news and making wild assumptions without any data.

Best wait for some facts.

Would speculation about racism be reasonable if the story had occurred in Apartheid South Africa?  Why or why not?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Nick

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 09:12:39 PM »
They have dash cam of before and after.  3 and a half minutes is missing.  Guess what that covers?  Also, no test on gun powder residue was taken on the kid or cops.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Chavis Carter
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 02:28:27 AM »
Well, the 2 kids released were white.  The kid arrested was black.  Can it be determined if the gun was one of the cops?  Very strange case.  It does not pay to be a minority and poor in this country.  Seems like the new program is just elimination.

Why were the white kids let go? They were not wanted on an outstanding warrant, nor were they in possession of an illegal substance. That's not racism.

For those of you that think the cops executed this kid, what possible reason do you have to suspect that? Because you find it incredible that he could have shot himself while handcuffed? Clearly possible, as the video demonstrates.

What's left that you STILL don't believe the cops? That they missed the gun in the pat-down twice? Entirely possible, if both pat downs checked the same places and missed the same places.

Also, don't you think the cops would have to be pretty damn stupid to murder a man in the back of their own squadcar while he was still handcuffed? Wouldn't it have been easier to uncuff him and make it look like he got shot trying to resist arrest? I mean, if they were going to make up a story, why would they make up one that they know many people wouldn't believe?

There is no conspiracy here. I know cops sometimes go too far, but this is clearly not one of those cases.

I heard today that he had meth, oxicontin, etc. in his system.  So the part of making him a bad guy has started.

Are you implying that the police made him take those drugs? Or that the medical examiner lied about the drug test? Otherwise, it looks to me like he made himself the bad guy.

They have dash cam of before and after.  3 and a half minutes is missing.  Guess what that covers?  Also, no test on gun powder residue was taken on the kid or cops.

Dash cams are tied in with the roof lights, they stop recording when you turn the lights off. With the suspect cuffed and secured, the lights were turned off.

No powder residue is left with a semi-automatic pistol, which almost entirely contains the blast. Only revolvers leave enough residue to run a trace test, as there is a gap between the chamber and the barrel where gas escapes out the sides of the gun when fired.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 02:36:41 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT