Why don't Christians understand?

[Graybeard]

What has God ever done?

[Nick]

My favorite pic that says there is no God is the one of the straving kid in Africa with the vulture waiting to take him.

[Traveler]

I hear ya ...

[Emily]

He hasn't acted mercifully, that's for sure.

I sure hope befree or whatever that users name if (our newest theist) doesn't see this thread. In one post he said god is love or some crap like that, and it just sickens me to hear people try to justify starving children with god's plan.

[Nick]

These 2 pics and that one of the starving kid in Africa with the vulture should be the 1st things we send back when we get mail from a theist or newbe here. Hell, they should be part of the cover for "Why Wont God Heal Amputees".

[Kimberly]

/sadness

Because it's their job to send .25 a day to help them in gods name.

[HAL]

Check this one out - I made it a long time ago to make the same point.

[shnozzola]

First time I saw the picture with the vulture.  I looked it up - then there was this:

In March 1993, photographer Kevin Carter made a trip to southern Sudan, where he took now iconic photo of a vulture preying upon an emaciated Sudanese toddler near the village of Ayod. Carter said he waited about 20 minutes, hoping that the vulture would spread its wings. It didn’t. Carter snapped the haunting photograph and chased the vulture away. (The parents of the girl were busy taking food from the same UN plane Carter took to Ayod).

The photograph was sold to The New York Times where it appeared for the first time on March 26, 1993 as ‘metaphor for Africa’s despair’. Practically overnight hundreds of people contacted the newspaper to ask whether the child had survived, leading the newspaper to run an unusual special editor’s note saying the girl had enough strength to walk away from the vulture, but that her ultimate fate was unknown. Journalists in the Sudan were told not to touch the famine victims, because of the risk of transmitting disease, but Carter came under criticism for not helping the girl. ”The man adjusting his lens to take just the right frame of her suffering might just as well be a predator, another vulture on the scene,” read one editorial.

Carter eventually won the Pulitzer Prize for this photo, but he couldn’t enjoy it. “I’m really, really sorry I didn’t pick the child up,” he confided in a friend. Consumed with the violence he’d witnessed, and haunted by the questions as to the little girl’s fate, he committed suicide three months later.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5241442

[Kimberly]

he committed suicide three months later.

That makes the picture even more unfortunate.

[Garja]

^^^ No doubt.  This whole thread feels like one continuous kick to the junk.

[joebbowers]

he committed suicide three months later.

That's pretty pathetic. Even if he had picked her up, what could he have done for her? Even if he gave her family money to buy food and medicine for her, thousands of others just like her would die anyway. Instead of killing himself, he could have continued taking powerful photos that might have inspired real change.

[stuffin]

It means nothing, just like religion. The unfortunate piece is; religion has a headlock on society.

[thunderridge]

IDK.  I think I would pick up the child and feed her. The hell with catching something.

[The Wannabe]

Kevin Carter's story is only a drop in an ocean of tears.  If god is love, then why the hell is he so indifferent to the VAST amount of human suffering that takes place on this planet every single fucking day?  It's horrendous to even consider that some theistic entity is responsible for this mess.   

What in gods name are Christians thinking anyway?!  They worship a megalomaniacal, narcissistic, bronze age monstrosity that commits genocide and demands genital mutilation in their own "good book", yet they have the audacity to spew moronic shit like "God is love." or "Morality comes from the bible!". 

The amount of cognitive dissonance that is required to keep up this cretinous, yet intricate charade is staggering.

   

[Emily]

"Morality comes from the bible!". 

The same morality that god can't even show himself. If the christian god does exist he has left us to our own devices to completely mess up the world and humanity, yet somehow helps people through very petty troubles compared to the grand scheme of things that is troubling the world, like world hunger, poverty, disasters and war.

If he does exist he has damn near given up on his population completely.

[veeshdog]

Check this one out - I made it a long time ago to make the same point.

I like this picture... I guess I should also disclose that I'm a Christ Follower

[Anfauglir]

Check this one out - I made it a long time ago to make the same point.

I like this picture... I guess I should also disclose that I'm a Christ Follower

What is it that you like about it?

[Nam]

Anfauglir,

The suffering? A Christian isn't a true  Christian unless they constantly suffer.

-Nam

[DumpsterFire]

As I read this thread there is a feature playing on Good Morning America called "Celebrity Looks for Less". They've just shown some starlet in a gazillion dollar designer dress, then trotted out a model in a nearly identical outfit that can be had for "only" $128.

The disparity between the lives of that little girl and her family vs. the lives of the average American family is far greater than the disparity between my life vs. Bill Gates' life. I am far from rich, but compared to a starving kid in Africa we are all akin to billionaires.

I agree with Joe that the photographer should have taken a more proactive role to provide whatever help he could, rather than just offing himself. On the other hand, I can only imagine the incredible despair that must accompany being in the presence of such overwhelming poverty and being virtually helpless to stop it.

I used to volunteer at an animal shelter some years ago, and it broke my heart when I realized that we/I simply do not have the resources to save all of them.

This world sure has a lot of suck in it.

[jaimehlers]

The problem is that there's so much need in this world that no one person can possibly do enough, even if they dedicate their entire life to it.

But if a lot of people all give a little, it can add up.  If a hundred million Americans each gave a penny, it would add up to a million dollars.  How many millions would that help, especially if it were a regular thing?

Even if just the regular members on this site contributed a dollar a month towards helping victims of starvation, it would add up to thousands of dollars a year, I think.  Especially as word got around.  Even leaving aside the humanitarian benefits entirely, the simple fact of atheists contributing their time and money towards ameliorating human suffering would go a long way towards contradicting the typical theist perception of atheists as immoral.

Anyone else think that's a good idea?

[earthfreak]

the question I always run up against is, give money to whom? how do we know what really helps?  the animal shelter comparison is a good one.  it's good to get in there and do something, but the more involved you get the more you realize how overwhelming the whole thing is. 

There really is a question of, what should that photographer have done? given them some money?  adopted the kid and brought her back to raise in the US? 

I don't know the answers, and I'm not a fan of using it as a cop-out, but I do get easily overwhelmed by this stuff. 

At the same time, yes, giving a dollar a month to really anyone working on this would be much more productive than discussing it on an internet board (though no reason we can't do both!)

[earthfreak]

oops, I forgot to say what I meant to at first.   

I am checking out this forum because I was on Is God Imaginary? and a little overwhelmed by the meanness and stupidity of much of it.  Traveller thought I might like this one better. 

can't say as yet, but though christianity (and most religion) doesnt' make much sense to me, I know a lot of christians whom I love and respect.  They're not all selfish idiots.  they're not even all illogical.

I'm sort of sad (ok, pretty darn sad) that veeshdog didn't get a more friendly response.  I assumed they liked the picture the same way I do (maybe not a safe assumption, but why not?) - because it's powerful, it says something, it "works" - not because anyone likes to see suffering or whatever. 

And I think a lot of Christians ("Christ Follower" might be something slightly different, though as I don't know v, I don't know what they mean by it) have the same compassion that a lot of atheists do.  there are plenty of barriers to human connection that we have a hell of a time getting around, I just hate to see us creating them, or fortifying them, when they could remain absent, or at least surmountable

[Traveler]

...I am checking out this forum because I was on Is God Imaginary? and a little overwhelmed by the meanness and stupidity of much of it.  Traveller thought I might like this one better....

Hey, welcome!!! I have to confess, I'm overwhelmed over there, and for the same reasons. I find myself wondering why I bother.

can't say as yet, but though christianity (and most religion) doesnt' make much sense to me, I know a lot of christians whom I love and respect.  They're not all selfish idiots.  they're not even all illogical.

I definately agree about the "selfish idiot" part. Most folks I know personally are pretty nice people, regardless of their religion. Illogical? Not in most ways. Its only when we drill down into the core of their faith that I think there is some logical dissonance.

[pianodwarf]

I am checking out this forum because I was on Is God Imaginary? and a little overwhelmed by the meanness and stupidity of much of it.  Traveller thought I might like this one better.

Hi, earthfreak, welcome to WWGHA.  I haven't spent any time at IGI, but I haven't heard many good things about it.

can't say as yet, but though christianity (and most religion) doesnt' make much sense to me, I know a lot of christians whom I love and respect.  They're not all selfish idiots.  they're not even all illogical.

True.

I'm sort of sad (ok, pretty darn sad) that veeshdog didn't get a more friendly response.  I assumed they liked the picture the same way I do (maybe not a safe assumption, but why not?) - because it's powerful, it says something, it "works" - not because anyone likes to see suffering or whatever.

I know.  Unfortunately, it's an inherent risk with certain topics of conversation -- hard to remain civil, even if you really want to (and, frankly, a lot of people don't).  Religion and politics, of course, are the two notorious ones in this regard.

And I think a lot of Christians ("Christ Follower" might be something slightly different, though as I don't know v, I don't know what they mean by it) have the same compassion that a lot of atheists do.

I agree.  I've noted that religion and ethics seldom have anything to do with each other.

there are plenty of barriers to human connection that we have a hell of a time getting around, I just hate to see us creating them, or fortifying them, when they could remain absent, or at least surmountable

I know what you mean, but unfortunately, for some people, those barriers can't be eliminated.  It's a "my way or the highway" thing.  I've lost count of how many Christians have expressed their brotherly love for me by telling me that they're going to pray for me to die as soon as possible so that my punishment (being sodomized by demons while having my flesh engulfed in flame) may begin as soon as possible.  There's no approaching people like that -- and, frankly, no reason to want to, either.

[Garja]

I'm sort of sad (ok, pretty darn sad) that veeshdog didn't get a more friendly response. 

Yeah, I wasn't sure what to think of that whole thing.  My first inclination what to tell him off, but I wasn't sure what he meant so I left it alone.  If he did mean that "wow, I like that picture for its artistic merit", then yes, it's a sad but powerful picture.  I will say generally though, when you are commenting on a child that was almost certainly near death it is usually a good idea to specify your meaning lest you look like a heartless Ahole.

[earthfreak]

yes, fair enough

[Azdgari]

Anyone else think that's a good idea?

It certainly can't hurt.  I'm having a bit of trouble with my cynical side, though - after all, it's not what we do that makes us evil to the point of deserving eternal torture in the first place.  It's what we are.  And that's not changing.

[earthfreak]

I know what you mean, but unfortunately, for some people, those barriers can't be eliminated.  It's a "my way or the highway" thing.  I've lost count of how many Christians have expressed their brotherly love for me by telling me that they're going to pray for me to die as soon as possible so that my punishment (being sodomized by demons while having my flesh engulfed in flame) may begin as soon as possible.  There's no approaching people like that -- and, frankly, no reason to want to, either.

yeah, I haven't actually had that happen, though there are plenty that seem to feel that way, but know that it would make them look bad to say so.

I'm just saying in this case I hadn't seen that.  maybe a lot of us already kind of have ptsd and overreact at times when people aren't actually being assholes.  that was my only concern.

but I agree.  that's a part of why I'm here.    I think I'm already a little disappointed though, that it seems (?) impossible to find a certain brand of christian that is willing or capable of having civil, logical discussions about their faith.  I mean, there are liberal christians who all but agree with me, and dogmatic sadists who are eager to see us all eternally tortured and can't string together a logical argument to save their lives, but nothing in between?

I still tend to really want to understand "these people" and I keep coming down to, - what's to understand? they're mean and crazy.  sigh

[The Wannabe]

Anyone else think that's a good idea?

It certainly can't hurt.  I'm having a bit of trouble with my cynical side, though - after all, it's not what we do that makes us evil to the point of deserving eternal torture in the first place.  It's what we are.  And that's not changing.

I have the same problem.  When i hear stories of car bombings in Palestine, or shootings here in America, i get a little overwhelmed by just how monstrous human nature can be at times.  The state of the world sometimes puts in me in a state of shock. 

With that being said, jaimehlers is right.  Being proactive is the only way to make a difference.  I can afford to give at least one dollar a month.  Anybody know of a good organization to donate to?