How can something come from nothing?

[befree]

I could from my limited understanding, education and beliefs but it is more than that.  It is a relationship with the Creator.  The best way that I have found is to lay on my bed and pour my heart out to Him.  All of my thoughts, concerns, fears, hopes etc.  It starts as an intellectual exercise but soon develops into a spiritual/soul connection.  The Holy Spirit will take over and reveal the deep, hidden things of your soul.

I like when all of you say "I don't know".  That means you are getting somewhere.  Like children don't know everything (or a lot), they simply trust.

Teach me.

[Energized]

To our limited understanding

Uh, you answered your own question. Just because it hasn't been figured out with any certainty doesn't mean goddidit.

So many claims made in the bible have been destroyed by science and logic. The earth isn't flat, there are no oceans in the sky held by invisible barriers, we can prove donkeys do not have the capacity to speak to humans, global floods never occurred, etc, etc, etc. If these have been demonstrated to be false, there's no reason to believe we won't eventually demonstrate how the universe was created from "nothing." Just give it time.

Hell, it's a miracle we know as much as we do considering how ruthless religion can be at stifling science and free thought.

It's really sad that people still can't use their imagination to find the answers to so many unanswered questions. It's sad that they limit themselves and rely on a book written by ignorant and mysoginistic men to explain nature. It's sad that they would stifle science because they believe the final answer rests with a useless god, when many of his actions had more to do with destroying than creating.

Tell you what. Take some time and actually read your bible before you post such nonsense justifying its claims of creating anything. Intelligent design arguments are like bringing an abacus to a calculus exam.

What a waste of time.

E.

[pianodwarf]

God is love.

Not the god of the bible.  He slaughters people by the millions and sets them on fire for all eternity.

Believers in God are trying to be caring/loving individuals.

Then why do so many Christians tell us that they are thrilled beyond the power of words to express that we are going to burn in hell forever?  Why do they give us death threats for having the gall not to adhere to their religion?

So when somebody signs off "with love" it is done in a loving way (I don't know how else to say it), not in an arrogant, pretentious, condescending way.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like that -- that's why I pointed it out to you -- but you do, regardless.

Let it go to God, he can take it.

Let yourself come to atheism, you can take it.

[befree]

I could go through each of your responses and debate them (using the bible as well) but that is not why I am here (where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).  I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

To our limited understanding

Uh, you answered your own question. Just because it hasn't been figured out with any certainty doesn't mean goddidit.

So many claims made in the bible have been destroyed by science and logic. The earth isn't flat, there are no oceans in the sky held by invisible barriers, we can prove donkeys do not have the capacity to speak to humans, global floods never occurred, etc, etc, etc. If these have been demonstrated to be false, there's no reason to believe we won't eventually demonstrate how the universe was created from "nothing." Just give it time.

Hell, it's a miracle we know as much as we do considering how ruthless religion can be at stifling science and free thought.

It's really sad that people still can't use their imagination to find the answers to so many unanswered questions. It's sad that they limit themselves and rely on a book written by ignorant and mysoginistic men to explain nature. It's sad that they would stifle science because they believe the final answer rests with a useless god, when many of his actions had more to do with destroying than creating.

Tell you what. Take some time and actually read your bible before you post such nonsense justifying its claims of creating anything. Intelligent design arguments are like bringing an abacus to a calculus exam.

What a waste of time.

E.

[pianodwarf]

(where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).

Matthew 4:8 and Isaiah 40:22.

I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

Well, it certainly isn't for you, anyway.

[Energized]

I could go through each of your responses and debate them (using the bible as well) but that is not why I am here (where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).  I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

To our limited understanding

Uh, you answered your own question. Just because it hasn't been figured out with any certainty doesn't mean goddidit.

So many claims made in the bible have been destroyed by science and logic. The earth isn't flat, there are no oceans in the sky held by invisible barriers, we can prove donkeys do not have the capacity to speak to humans, global floods never occurred, etc, etc, etc. If these have been demonstrated to be false, there's no reason to believe we won't eventually demonstrate how the universe was created from "nothing." Just give it time.

Hell, it's a miracle we know as much as we do considering how ruthless religion can be at stifling science and free thought.

It's really sad that people still can't use their imagination to find the answers to so many unanswered questions. It's sad that they limit themselves and rely on a book written by ignorant and mysoginistic men to explain nature. It's sad that they would stifle science because they believe the final answer rests with a useless god, when many of his actions had more to do with destroying than creating.

Tell you what. Take some time and actually read your bible before you post such nonsense justifying its claims of creating anything. Intelligent design arguments are like bringing an abacus to a calculus exam.

What a waste of time.

E.

Typical. A Christian starts a thread wanting to talk science (their kindergarten version) then when they can't get anywhere with it, they turn to useless preaching.

If you don't know where the bible makes the claim that the earth is flat, you're an ignorant Christian who has no business supporting it if you haven't actually read the fucking book.

E..

[befree]

God is perfect and just.  He abhors sin and cannot tolerate it.  Yes, those who chose sin over his way will be separated from him for all of eternity and that should be a fearful thing for all of us.

God is love.

Not the god of the bible.  He slaughters people by the millions and sets them on fire for all eternity.

Believers in God are trying to be caring/loving individuals.

Then why do so many Christians tell us that they are thrilled beyond the power of words to express that we are going to burn in hell forever?  Why do they give us death threats for having the gall not to adhere to their religion?

I can't answer for others and just because someone says they are Christian doesn't mean they answer for God or are following God's way.  He says to "test the spirits" to see if they tell the truth.  James 3:12 "Does a fig tree produce olives, or a grapevine produce figs? No, and you can't draw fresh water from a salty spring.".  Just like in Atheists there are fanatics and lunatics.  I don't believe either.  I try to strive for the truth (always).  But the truth is not always an intellectual exercise.

So when somebody signs off "with love" it is done in a loving way (I don't know how else to say it), not in an arrogant, pretentious, condescending way.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like that -- that's why I pointed it out to you -- but you do, regardless.

Let it go to God, he can take it.

Let yourself come to atheism, you can take it.

[befree]

(where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).

Matthew 4:8 and Isaiah 40:22.

Matthew 4:8:
Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence,

Isaiah 40:22:
The one who is enthroned above the vault of the earth,
its inhabitants like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a veil
and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in,i


I don't know where you see "the earth is flat" from those versus.  Maybe where the devil took Jesus up to a mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world?  You have to read and see with your spiritual eye, not literal.

I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

Well, it certainly isn't for you, anyway.

[Quesi]

God is perfect and just.  He abhors sin and cannot tolerate it.  Yes, those who chose sin over his way will be separated from him for all of eternity and that should be a fearful thing for all of us.

The babies and toddlers who your god killed in the flood (in which only Noah's family survived), what sins did they commit?

What about the Canaanite children who died or were orphaned as your god's orders were carried out?  What sins did they commit?

All of the children today, many of whom have Christian parents, who are dying of malnutrition and starvation, or natural disasters?  What sins did they commit? 

And explain to me how your "perfect and just God" decided that these individuals were worthy of such suffering? 

[3sigma]

It is not an intellectual exercise.

This is probably the only true statement you’ve made so far.

[HAL]

I could from my limited understanding, education and beliefs but it is more than that.  It is a relationship with the Creator.  The best way that I have found is to lay on my bed and pour my heart out to Him.  All of my thoughts, concerns, fears, hopes etc.  It starts as an intellectual exercise but soon develops into a spiritual/soul connection.  The Holy Spirit will take over and reveal the deep, hidden things of your soul.

Do you hear voices?

[blue]

You have to read and see with your spiritual eye, not literal.

What is a spiritual eye? Where is it located on the human body and how does it interface with the human nervous system? Where is your evidence for such a thing? You are claiming a whole new sensory system so I'm sure you can point to evidence of such a thing, right?

[pianodwarf]

Matthew 4:8:
Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence,

Isaiah 40:22:
The one who is enthroned above the vault of the earth,

I don't know where you see "the earth is flat" from those versus.  Maybe where the devil took Jesus up to a mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world?

Yes.  It would only be possible to see all the kingdoms of the earth from a mountaintop if the earth were flat, obviously.

Also, my translation of Isaiah says "the circle of the earth", not "the vault of the earth".  The original Hebrew supports this; it uses the word "chuwg", which means "circle".  And circles are flat.

You have to read and see with your spiritual eye, not literal.

There is no such thing as a "spiritual eye".

[Xero-Kill]

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.   I don't want to argue with any of you.  You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.  Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.  My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.  He is faithful to answer.  Maybe not in your timing or manner but he will in the best possibly way for you and for his plan.  Faith is not something that is tangible (and there are many more intangibles).  You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?  Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity. With love.

The portion in bold is the real crux of your concerns. You are not interested in how something comes from nothing. You are concerned with how something can become nothing. Everything you believe is based on that concern alone and all the rest is just the gobbledygook you shroud yourself in to hide from the real issue. Grow a spine and face your mortality.

[Aaron123]

God is love.  That is what I meant.  Believers in God are trying to be caring/loving individuals.  So when somebody signs off "with love" it is done in a loving way (I don't know how else to say it), not in an arrogant, pretentious, condescending way.  That is why I am so concerned for all of you.  The anger, hurt, frustration etc.  Let it go to God, he can take it.  Try to strive for love in your lives.

Why do you assume that atheists are angry, unhappy people?  Most of us are fairly happy, well-adjusted people.  We simply don't think there's a god-being out there.

[Graybeard]

If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.

No, that is what you get - I don't get that. You have just invented a mythical being because you don't know the answer.

I don't know the answer either but didn't say that it was done by magic...

Ok, for instance matter. 
Question: where did it come from? 
Answer: The Big Bang. 
Question: Where did the Big Bang come from? 
Answer: God.

Question: where did God come from?
Godbotherer's Answer: "He's always been there."
Question: "OK, the universe has always been there. Checkmate godbotherer..."

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.

No. That is the answer you come up with - how do you know it is the "real answer"? 

BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".

That is very silly - unless of course you can show that what you wrote is true.

To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

How do you know that?

Hope this helps.

Well, it helps me realise that your strong subject is not science and, to compensate for that, you make things up.

Listen befree,
The Bible was written by men who did not understand the world. They thought it was flat and the sky was made of glass. The sky has holes in it so that the rain can come through. Genesis is a creation myth - a folk tale, a fairy story.

Australian Aborigine Creation Myth http://www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_13.html

There was a time when everything was still. All the spirits of the earth were asleep - or almost all. The great Father of All Spirits was the only one awake. Gently he awoke the Sun Mother. As she opened her eyes a warm ray of light spread out towards the sleeping earth. The Father of All Spirits said to the Sun Mother,
"Mother, I have work for you. Go down to the Earth and awake the sleeping spirits. Give them forms."

The Sun Mother glided down to Earth, which was bare at the time and began to walk in all directions and everywhere she walked plants grew. After returning to the field where she had begun her work the Mother rested, well pleased with herself. The Father of All Spirits came and saw her work, but instructed her to go into the caves and wake the spirits.

This time she ventured into the dark caves on the mountainsides. The bright light that radiated from her awoke the spirits and after she left insects of all kinds flew out of the caves. The Sun Mother sat down and watched the glorious sight of her insects mingling with her flowers. However once again the Father urged her on.

The Mother ventured into a very deep cave, spreading her light around her. Her heat melted the ice and the rivers and streams of the world were created. Then she created fish and small snakes, lizards and frogs. Next she awoke the spirits of the birds and animals and they burst into the sunshine in a glorious array of colors. Seeing this the Father of All Spirits was pleased with the Sun Mother's work.

She called all her creatures to her and instructed them to enjoy the wealth of the earth and to live peacefully with one another. Then she rose into the sky and became the sun.

Now, tell me, why don't you believe that? But you do believe Genesis?

[stuffin]

This thread is a feeding frenzy. I got here too late to contribute. 

[Betelnut]

This thread is a feeding frenzy. I got here too late to contribute. 

Me too but I'm sort of glad.  I don't come to this forum very often because it just gets so god damned tiring arguing the same points over and over again.  I'm glad there is a crew that is willing to do so.

[Garja]

This thread is a feeding frenzy. I got here too late to contribute. 

Same here.  Arguing with MM and Sam is enough for me right now.

Watching this conversation REALLY makes me feel dumb having believed this drivel for so long.

[Emily]

God is perfect and just.  He abhors sin and cannot tolerate it.  Yes, those who chose sin over his way will be separated from him for all of eternity and that should be a fearful thing for all of us.

God is perfect? Not in the least. His idea of what we can and can not do makes him nothing more than a dictator. There are so many 'sins' that angers god, and it's impossible for all of us not to 'break' at least one, and separate ourselves from 'god', and thus need to  pray for 'forgiveness'. I'm not going to be god's little bitch.

Regarding sin, George Carlin hit the nail right on the head. (concerning the 10 commandments)

[caveat_imperator]

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.   I don't want to argue with any of you.  You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.  Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.  My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.  He is faithful to answer.  Maybe not in your timing or manner but he will in the best possibly way for you and for his plan.  Faith is not something that is tangible (and there are many more intangibles).  You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?  Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity.  With love.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

[Garja]

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.

If our logic is derived from a creator, why did he create in such a fashion that logical analysis makes it appear as though he does not exist?

[Nam]

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.

Before I answer this: please learn to use the quote system correctly.

My logic, which is flawed at times, came from my self-education. No "Creator" had a deal in it, and if it did, why are you arguing against it?

I don't want to argue with any of you.

I believe you. You just want to come here, state things as fact without any evidence but your opinion, it seems, to back it up.

Perhaps everything was created but why does it have to be by a "Supreme Being"? Why can't it just be natural occurence of nature?

You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.

If your creator exists, I am not equal to it, I am above it.

Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.

Evidence that Satan exists?

My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.  He is faithful to answer.  Maybe not in your timing or manner but he will in the best possibly way for you and for his plan.  Faith is not something that is tangible (and there are many more intangibles).  You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?

You're preaching. And, I go to bed in the morning, and wake up during the day.

Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity.  With love.

Still preaching.

-Nam

[Nam]

I could go through each of your responses and debate them (using the bible as well) but that is not why I am here (where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).  I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

So, you're here just to preach to us. If you bothered to read the rules you'd see you're breaking a rule, and, it also means you won't be here for long. This place is for debating, not for preaching.

-Nam

[Cyberia]

I don't know where you see "the earth is flat" from those versus.  Maybe where the devil took Jesus up to a mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world?  You have to read and see with your spiritual eye, not literal.

Then why go up a mountain?

[Ambassador Pony]

I could go through each of your responses and debate them (using the bible as well) but that is not why I am here (where in the bible does it say the earth is flat?).  I am here to open your heart to God.  It is not an intellectual exercise.

Then you are refusing to abide by the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

You agreed not to preach, and also to engage in forthright debate and discussion.

I think, if you pray on it, your deity will enlighten you to the benefits of honesty and integrity when appealing to people who have generously lent you their ears. So far, you've only embarassed yourself. That you are blissfully unaware of your own ignorance, is a further imposition on the members of this forum.

If moral and intellectual integrity, such that is required of you here, is beyond your capacity, I suggest you leave. No one is interested in your public mental masturbation. You can return when you grow up and are prepared to speak to intelligent adults as an intelligent adult.

As a parting gift you can neglect the parthian final post, HAL has it written for you already.

HAL, if you could please.

[HAL]

As a parting gift you can neglect the parthian final post, HAL has it written for you already.

HAL, if you could please.

Oh yay! I've been waiting for this.

Can nothing come from something?

[Ambassador Pony]

Oh yay! I've been waiting for this.

Can nothing come from something?

If it's not smarmy self-righteous enough, and lacks the other essential hallmarks we've so often read, I will be very dissapoint.

[Boots]

  In God's realm time doesn't exist. 

HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS???

Have you ever been there?  How can you verify that time does not exist in this place--if it is, in deed a place (which, by you naming it "god's realm" you must believe)?  You have zero credibility unless you can answer this question.

This earth has time, therefore it is not in god's realm, BY YOUR OWN WORDS.  Does that mean he has no power here?

Your arguments are terrible, not at all well-thought out.