Author Topic: How can something come from nothing?  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline befree

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How can something come from nothing?
« on: August 17, 2012, 04:09:56 PM »
Sorry if this has been discussed before.  I searched your site but it doesn't search well on phrases.  If somebody has a link to this subject please post it.  I am new here and I do believe there is a Supreme Being (God).  It is very simple to me.  Look at a tree, leaves, a child.  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?  You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?  If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.  Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".  To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Hope this helps.


Offline HAL

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 04:30:50 PM »
How can something come from nothing?

I don't know.

Offline none

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »
how do you know there was nothing?

Offline Quesi

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 04:50:17 PM »
Stephen Hawking addresses the question in this wonderful and complex documentary. 



Welcome to the forum.

Offline Nam

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »
It is very simple to me.

Depending on your particular belief and/or religion: "simple" doesn't come to mind.

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Look at a tree, leaves, a child.  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?

The leaves came from the tree, and the tree was created by a seed. The child was born from the womb of its mother, who had the egg inside her,where semen from a man entered into. What does a "god" have to do with such a process?

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You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?

Who says something comes from nothing, and who says nothing is actually nothing?

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If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.

How so?
 
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Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

Evidence?

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If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".

I wasn't going to ask anything. You assume a lot with no evidence to back it up.

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To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Who?

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Hope this helps.

To your lack of evidence, and apparent ignorance? Yes, it does.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 05:39:47 PM »
Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

Prove it. If you cannot establish the truth or validity of your claims then why should anyone believe them?

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If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.

Is that a problem? If it is then how did your God create something from nothing?

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"God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".

Again, prove it. Making unsupported assertions is worthless. The first thing you need to do before you make claims that your God created anything is prove to us that this God of yours is even real. Well, is it real or imaginary? If it isn’t real then it didn’t create anything, it doesn’t perform miracles or answer prayers and it doesn’t grant eternal life.

I notice you made absolutely no attempt to answer the OP in the thread Please validate your belief in your God so I suspect you are yet another religious believer who is unable to establish the truth or validity of his claims. If you cannot do that then why should anyone believe them? If you are unwilling even to try to validate your claims then why should anyone trust a word you have to say?

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 08:29:39 PM »
Where did god come from?  If you swallow "he always existed" (which you stated so I assume you do), why are you willing to allow special pleading for this case?

by the way, I like Hal's answer best: I don't know.  Your answer stifles scientific creativity.  Hal's answer fosters it.  I'll take that one, please and thank you.
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Offline Irish

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 08:35:57 PM »
Look at a tree, leaves, a child.

No, I don't think those objects came about by chance.  In the case of the child there is a pretty well understood mechanism and series of events that lead to the development and birth of a child.  The word that summarizes all these events is gestation.  We know how it happens.  There is no chance involved.

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How can something come from nothing?

In layman's terms there really isn't such a thing as "nothing".  My knowledge of physics is novice but as I understand there is no such thing as nothing.  Even what we think of as "nothing" still has fluctuations of energy, and hence matter, that arises from complicated quantum mechanics.

If you want a more complete and authoritative answer Lawrence Krauss has a complete book (A Universe from Nothing) and an hour long YouTube video dedicated to this subject.




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If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.  Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".

Ah, but surely you see the error.  My question, which you've already guessed, is, Where did God come from?  You preempt this question with the answer that God has always been and has always existed.  If you can defeat the First Cause argument simply by stating that what you're trying to define has always existed then you or I can do the same with matter.  If God has "always existed" then matter has always existed and no god is necessary to create it.  It's the same line of logic applied to both and it's called special pleading.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Garja

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 08:47:25 PM »
  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?

I am about "theist fighting - out" for the week, so I'll keep this brief.

1. continually going back further and further is an infinite regress even beyond where you claim "God".  If you saying everything has to come from something then so does God.  The fact is no one knows what started the universe.  Just saying "God did it" is really lazy and gets us no where.  If science was content with that answer we would still be in the dark ages.

2. Chance and Intelligent design are not the only two options available.  Natural selection is NOT the same thing as chance.  There is admittedly a certain degree of chance involved in the process, but not to the degree that creationists would have you believe.


Side note: Going around to different posts and just saying "why so angry?" is not very helpful to anyone.  Also, I am not sure that 'anger' is the right word.... except in your post asking Nam, he is usually pretty angry.  ;)  But a much better word is "frustration".  Imagine trying to tell someone the sky is blue, yet they insist not only in saying that the sky is in fact green but refuse to actually look at the sky and nor will they give any kind of evidence or justification for their "green sky theory".  You will see a lot of frustration on these boards... I have only been a member for about a month and I'm already frustrated.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 08:53:10 PM by Garja »
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Offline wright

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 09:05:33 PM »
Welcome to the forum, befree.

Sorry if this has been discussed before.  I searched your site but it doesn't search well on phrases.  If somebody has a link to this subject please post it. 

You didn't look for very long, then. There's a whole subforum called "Evolution and Creationism, discussions about origins". Your question is a perennial one with creationist visitors, as might be expected. Here are a few threads concerning this topic:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21745.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,399.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20146.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,41.50.html

If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.

Why? Produce evidence for this assumption, or it remains just that.

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If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".  To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Aaand yet another assumption. Evidence for this one?

Quote
Hope this helps.

It helps show your ignorance on the subject and your inexperience at arguing logically. This is just a series of creationist assumptions, with zero evidence provided to back them up. I invite you to stick around and learn a few things.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 09:35:20 PM »
Sorry if this has been discussed before.  I searched your site but it doesn't search well on phrases.  If somebody has a link to this subject please post it. 

You didn't look for very long, then. There's a whole subforum called "Evolution and Creationism, discussions about origins". Your question is a perennial one with creationist visitors, as might be expected. Here are a few threads concerning this topic:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21745.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,399.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20146.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,41.50.html


Here's another:

I don't care.

This is all you needed to say.

Your cherry-picking, out-of-context ass needs to come up with something better, son.  >:(
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline BigV

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 10:33:15 PM »
Sorry if this has been discussed before.  I searched your site but it doesn't search well on phrases.  If somebody has a link to this subject please post it.  I am new here and I do believe there is a Supreme Being (God).  It is very simple to me.  Look at a tree, leaves, a child.  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?  You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?  If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.  Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".  To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Hope this helps.

Is God a complex being or a very simple being?  If God is complex, then by your own logic he too must have been designed, since all complex things are designed.

If God is not designed, then your own argument fails, for it is possible to have a very complex thing that is not designed.

Offline Cyberia

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 11:08:38 PM »
How can something come from nothing?

Have you actually seen "nothing"?  Where is it?  Is it in the sky?  or in a lab?  Is there a "box of nothing" somewhere on someone's desk?

Then how in the hell can you assert how "nothing" behaves, or what properties it has?

You are assuming you know how "nothing" works, and then by assertion declaring that your conclusion is true.  Admittedly it seems initially appealing that "nothing does nothing", but the mathematics say otherwise.  Given a lack of a sample to test, and a choice between QM and a gut feeling, I'll go with the math.

A fully natural ex-nihilo universe may indeed be possible.
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 11:13:33 PM »
Why is there so much stupid?   ;D


Sorry if this has been discussed before.  I searched your site but it doesn't search well on phrases.  If somebody has a link to this subject please post it.  I am new here and I do believe there is a Supreme Being (God).  It is very simple to me.  Look at a tree, leaves, a child.  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?  You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?  If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.  Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".  To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Hope this helps.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 01:16:38 AM »
You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?  If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.  Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".  To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Why do you assume that we believe "something come from nothing"?

For that matter, what is "nothing"?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 06:50:52 AM »
Dumb comment but ok.  If there was "something" then where did that come from?  Everything that is was created.


how do you know there was nothing?

Offline HAL

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 06:53:59 AM »
If there was "something" then where did that come from?  Everything that is was created.

I don't know.

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 06:56:58 AM »
It is very simple to me.

Depending on your particular belief and/or religion: "simple" doesn't come to mind.

You overthink things too much.

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Look at a tree, leaves, a child.  Do you really think those came about by chance and not intelligent design?

The leaves came from the tree, and the tree was created by a seed. The child was born from the womb of its mother, who had the egg inside her,where semen from a man entered into. What does a "god" have to do with such a process?

Where did the seed come from?  Where did the egg or semen for the child come from?  Really do we have to keep going back, that is my whole point.

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You like logic, answer me this.  How can something come from nothing?

Who says something comes from nothing, and who says nothing is actually nothing?

Ok, whatever. 

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If you take any argument back far enough you get God (or some Superior Being) had to create it.

How so?

See my comments to your comments under "Seed" and "egg/semen".
 
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Ok, for instance matter.  Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God.

Evidence?

It's all around you.  You are too blind to see then.

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If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will".

I wasn't going to ask anything. You assume a lot with no evidence to back it up.

The evidence is all around you!!!!

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To our limited understanding because his thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.

Who?

God's thoughts (certainly not yours).

Quote
Hope this helps.

To your lack of evidence, and apparent ignorance? Yes, it does.

LOL

-Nam

Offline joebbowers

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 07:18:39 AM »
It's ridiculous to believe that something can come from nothing.
Except God, he can.

It's ridiculous to believe that something could have existed forever.
Except God, he can.

If God is an exception, than you are admitting there are exceptions, which invalidates the rule.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2012, 07:26:19 AM »
Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.   I don't want to argue with any of you.  You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.  Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.  My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.  He is faithful to answer.  Maybe not in your timing or manner but he will in the best possibly way for you and for his plan.  Faith is not something that is tangible (and there are many more intangibles).  You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?  Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity.  With love.



It's ridiculous to believe that something can come from nothing.
Except God, he can.

It's ridiculous to believe that something could have existed forever.
Except God, he can.

If God is an exception, than you are admitting there are exceptions, which invalidates the rule.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 07:28:52 AM »
Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God. ITSELF

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will". 

So....its fine that something was uncreated and "just always there".  Fine.....but then why not just accept that all the matter in the universe was "just always there", compacted into a tiny singularity, which began to expand.  How long was it there for before it expanded?  A meaningless question, because time did not exist (as you so nearly get right) until after the expansion had begun.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 07:30:49 AM »
Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator. 

NO - you silly sausage!  Everything was sneezed from the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure. 

Disagree?  Fine!  Produce one piece of verifiable evidence that points solely to your chosen god-myth and then maybe - maybe - we can have a conversation.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 07:39:22 AM »
We are getting close on one item--time.  Time is a figment of our imagination.  Just because the earth spins and light from the sun shines certain times of the day does not mean time.  Ditto for the earth revolving around the sun.  Yes, man has but a certain number of earth revolutions (years) around the sun before he is no more.  In God's realm time doesn't exist.  There is only the now, has been and ever will be.  Sometimes we get an inkling of this when we are absorbed in something or the monks/buddists etc. say nirvana. 

Back your "matter in the universe was always just there"...
Where did the matter come from?  We could go on and on and on...



Question: where did it come from?  Answer: The Big Bang.  Question: Where did the Big Bang come from?  Answer: God. ITSELF

If you take any of your logic back far enough it ends with something was created out of nothing.  BTW, the answer to the question you are going to ask is "God created time and everything so he always existed and always will". 

So....its fine that something was uncreated and "just always there".  Fine.....but then why not just accept that all the matter in the universe was "just always there", compacted into a tiny singularity, which began to expand.  How long was it there for before it expanded?  A meaningless question, because time did not exist (as you so nearly get right) until after the expansion had begun.

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2012, 07:40:47 AM »
Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator. 

NO - you silly sausage!  Everything was sneezed from the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure. 

Disagree?  Fine!  Produce one piece of verifiable evidence that points solely to your chosen god-myth and then maybe - maybe - we can have a conversation.

Provide one piece of evidence?  Oh my dear friend, are you so blind?  There are literally billions all around you...


Offline HAL

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2012, 07:40:56 AM »
Back your "matter in the universe was always just there"...
Where did the matter come from? 

I don't know.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 07:46:28 AM »
Everything that is was created.

How do you know?

The evidence is all around you!!!!

Then it should be a very simple and straightforward matter for you to show it to us, should it not?

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.

Citation needed.

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You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.

Equal in what sense?  (Setting aside for the moment, of course, that we are atheists, and Satan is not -- if he exists at all, that is.)

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Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.

Have you read the bible?  Yahweh doesn't come across as a very loving individual.

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My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.

Most of us here have, in that most of us are former Christians.  When they had these "concerns and questions", they prayed for answers, and Yahweh did not answer them.  What do you think about that?

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You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?

No, because there are good reasons to think that you will.

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Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity.

Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager?  It's what you're talking about here.

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With love.

Don't do that, please.  It makes you look like an arrogant, pretentious, condescending ass.
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Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 07:56:58 AM »
I like when all of you say "I don't know".  That means you are getting somewhere.  Like children don't know everything (or a lot), they simply trust.

Back your "matter in the universe was always just there"...
Where did the matter come from? 

I don't know.

Offline HAL

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2012, 07:58:09 AM »
I like when all of you say "I don't know".  That means you are getting somewhere.  Like children don't know everything (or a lot), they simply trust.

Teach me.

Offline befree

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Re: How can something come from nothing?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2012, 08:01:28 AM »
Everything that is was created.

How do you know?

The evidence is all around you!!!!

Then it should be a very simple and straightforward matter for you to show it to us, should it not?

Everything you see, all your logic, concepts et cetera were given to you by the Creator.

Citation needed.

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You are falling into the same trap that Satan and all his followers did which is to think you are equal with the Creator.

Equal in what sense?  (Setting aside for the moment, of course, that we are atheists, and Satan is not -- if he exists at all, that is.)

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Satan and all his followers are divided from the love of God and you will be too if you so choose.

Have you read the bible?  Yahweh doesn't come across as a very loving individual.

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My prayer is that you reach out to God and like a child lay out your concerns and questions.

Most of us here have, in that most of us are former Christians.  When they had these "concerns and questions", they prayed for answers, and Yahweh did not answer them.  What do you think about that?

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You go to bed each night thinking you will wake up in the morning, is that not faith?

No, because there are good reasons to think that you will.

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Once day you will not wake up.  Consider your eternity.

Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager?  It's what you're talking about here.

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With love.

Don't do that, please.  It makes you look like an arrogant, pretentious, condescending ass.

I will try to answer your comments another time but the last one I will right now.  God is love.  That is what I meant.  Believers in God are trying to be caring/loving individuals.  So when somebody signs off "with love" it is done in a loving way (I don't know how else to say it), not in an arrogant, pretentious, condescending way.  That is why I am so concerned for all of you.  The anger, hurt, frustration etc.  Let it go to God, he can take it.  Try to strive for love in your lives.