Author Topic: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)  (Read 4789 times)

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Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2012, 11:16:39 PM »
When you format your desk top computer, you would be justified by who?

I don't love my computer programs like I would love my own child. We should probably drop the analogy and create a thread on whether or not God truly "loves" his creations.
Good idea
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2012, 11:20:47 PM »
I (programmer) would give the program free will.
So the program can happily choose to have a meaningful relationship with me.

Do people you meet and talk to face-to-face have the free will to choose whether to have a meaningful relationship with you?
Irrelevant.
I did not create the people around me
We are talking about creator/creation relationship
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2012, 11:26:17 PM »
Care to explain the relevance of whether you created someone, to whether meeting them would take away their free will?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2012, 11:40:20 PM »
If I created something, I have every right to it (including free will and vice Versa)

But people I meet, you already know the answer.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 12:00:56 AM by anasunakmoon »
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2012, 12:16:11 AM »
Be that as it may, could you answer the question I actually asked?

You meet person A.  You didn't create person A.  Meeting them doesn't take away their free will.  Fine.

You meet person B.  You created person B.  Apparently, meeting them takes away their free will.  How the hell does that work?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 12:17:50 AM by Azdgari »
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2012, 06:29:53 AM »
my apology! Mate.
I misunderstood your question #28

Ok, to answer your question

I think people do not choose to have meaningful relationship right away but choose to initiate their effort (by opening their hearts etc.)
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2012, 07:11:58 AM »
my apology! Mate.
I misunderstood your question #28

All good, it happens.   ;)

Ok, to answer your question

I think people do not choose to have meaningful relationship right away but choose to initiate their effort (by opening their hearts etc.)

Or choose not to.  But when does that choice become available to them?  Before meeting you[1], or after?
 1. I'm including electronic correspondence here - phone, E-mail, whatever sort of two-way communication you like.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Samothec

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2012, 03:20:06 PM »
A situation specifically created with this "conversation" in mind. It doesn't have to occur naturally, nor does it need to have a point. It can happen; thus "never" is a flawed statement. 

The word "never" isn't a statement. You have not proven your idea. First, you needed to put the word conversation in quotes for your claim to be valid but that invalidates your point. Part of the poster's premise was that the conversation – a dialog between 2 programs/people – can take place. It can't because to get to the "conversation" as presented it would need to be scripted and thus is not a debate or conversation anymore; it is a set piece, a fiction, unreal. Which was my point.

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Alternatively, there is nothing stopping the programmers from creating alternate programs with alternate startup assumptions separately and testing them separately. No interaction with the running program is required to create the modifications. There is nothing stopping a programmer from creating artificial memories or modifying existing ones.

Agreed. But this doesn't matter with regards to the point I was making. See below about special design.


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Where in the OP did it state - or even imply - that the conversation occurred naturally?
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This fictional debate takes place in an unspecified A.I computer system between two sentient computer programs (Alpha and 0,1)

A debate is an exchange between two people (or in this supposed case AI programs) where ideas/points/arguments are exchanged. If it is not occurring naturally then it is not a debate; it is a set piece, a fiction, unreal. Which was my point.


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Or you can just not give the programs the ability to read that information.
<ad hominem removed>  The only reason you would ever need to create a "specially designed independent computer system" was if you had gone out of your way to add in the ability for them to look at and comprehend the locations you put the programmer signatures. And if, for whatever reason, you open up their capabilities to read files at random - don't give the program admin privileges - and don't chmod 777 everything.

Part of the premise underlying the original post is that the programs are a lot like people. Which would include the ability to examine their environment. Limiting or eliminating that ability creates an alternative specially designed computer system – exactly what I said would be needed. You have unintentionally supported my contention. The same with altering the programs to perceive time on human scale or just about any other special aspects you care to name.


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His analogy fails utterly because of the conversation he decided to write on the behalf of the programs. It was terrible.

I thought that was painfully obvious to all but the original poster. But he replied to the joking about his OP as if they were serious points to be considered. To me, the logical thing was to rip his underlying premise to shreds then any discussion of the content on his part fails.


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You are making a number of unnecessary assumptions and attempting to use those against the premise you were given. It seems like a poor attempt to dodge by claiming a what-if scenario can't happen. That's like playing D&D and questioning the GM when he tells you a dragon landed in front of the party because you don't believe in dragons.

The "assumptions" were present in the premise. And a correct analogy here would be like playing D&D and questioning the GM when he has a group of Klingons beam down in front of you.


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Also; for someone who took a shot at me about programming, you clearly have a lot to learn yourself.

Yes, I do. I haven't done any programming in decades. (I don't count making macros as programming.) I first learned Fortran 4[1] then went on to other languages. My programming ended about the time C (or C+ - I've forgotten which) was gaining popularity.

I apologize for the ad hominem attacks – they are too easy to engage in. As you know. Like myself you left a lot unsaid that made it possible to interpret your posts in a negative light; you know your comments were accurate because you know exactly what you meant but the actual wording left it possible to view you as not knowing enough about programming. I do that with my posts also.


I seem to have found a hot button of yours and will endeavor not to use a certain word again unless I want you jumping all over my posts.


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That said; let's explore the scenario given in the OP.

Ugh, no, thank you. It was lame – to put it politely.
 1. it was current then
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2012, 05:22:17 PM »
The word "never" isn't a statement. You have not proven your idea. First, you needed to put the word conversation in quotes for your claim to be valid but that invalidates your point. Part of the poster's premise was that the conversation – a dialog between 2 programs/people – can take place. It can't because to get to the "conversation" as presented it would need to be scripted and thus is not a debate or conversation anymore; it is a set piece, a fiction, unreal. Which was my point.
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Quote
Where in the OP did it state - or even imply - that the conversation occurred naturally?
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This fictional debate takes place in an unspecified A.I computer system between two sentient computer programs (Alpha and 0,1)

A debate is an exchange between two people (or in this supposed case AI programs) where ideas/points/arguments are exchanged. If it is not occurring naturally then it is not a debate; it is a set piece, a fiction, unreal. Which was my point.
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The "assumptions" were present in the premise.

All we are told in the opening is that there are two sentient programs with the names "Alpha" and "0 1". We are not given their location. We are not given how long they have been operational. We are not given how many there are in the computer system.

They could be in a multi-server complex that spans 12 decks on the U.S.S. Enterprise E. They could have been running for one thousand years. They could have a hundred-thousand other programs with them[1][2]. We've already gone over that fact that multiple AIs can be created without any knowledge of a programmer. You've also admitted that enough experience (gained over an unspecified period of time) would create differing responses to the same situation despite "identical twin" starting conditions.
But they will be like human identical twins; it will take a lot of experience before they significantly diverge.

And no one made these two have this conversation (although with Alpha's opening line, one might think it were coerced - but terrible writing aside...), it just happened to occur exactly one thousand years (or however long) after they were activated.

Again, none of this was specified because as a "what-if" scenario it shouldn't need to be.

I maintain that the use of the word "never" is unjustified.

---

Part of the premise underlying the original post is that the programs are a lot like people. Which would include the ability to examine their environment. Limiting or eliminating that ability creates an alternative specially designed computer system – exactly what I said would be needed. You have unintentionally supported my contention. The same with altering the programs to perceive time on human scale or just about any other special aspects you care to name.
Can humans examine everything about their environment? Anyone here able to see the ultraviolet spectrum with their built-in capabilities? There could be a programmer's signature there! We need tools that we've created in order to examine certain aspects of our environment - there is no reason for this exercise to assume the programs have developed their own equivalent technologies. Limiting their ability to examine their environment is not an obstacle. The same for perception of time - we have no true basis to contend AI should experience time at any specific rate, if at all. The fact that they are AI (Artificial Intelligence) means anything we put them in or any decisions we make about how they experience their environment will be "specially-designed" by some metric; since there is no real base assumption or prior example one can look at for their capabilities.

I am of the opinion that this argument is simply invalid. It does not take away from the AI's ability to have a conversation any more than two imprisoned blind men[3].

I thought that was painfully obvious to all but the original poster. But he replied to the joking about his OP as if they were serious points to be considered. To me, the logical thing was to rip his underlying premise to shreds then any discussion of the content on his part fails.
You're right, it was painfully obvious to everyone but the original poster. But are we talking to each other about it, or are we responding to him? If he thinks it's serious; then (in my opinion) the best ways to address it are to either laugh at it and hope he has a sense of humor about his own failing (he doesn't), or we address the content and show him why it fails. The goal in doing it that way is to change his thought process. Make him recalculate the results - essentially we correct the first thing on his list, invalidating the rest - and he has to defend that or accept it before we can move on.

Revise his thinking and he'll either run away[4] or understand a little bit more.

Furthermore - it's a "What-if" scenario with a non-self-contradictory set-up. I don't really see the value in going after the premise since that doesn't actually advance the conversation.

And a correct analogy here would be like playing D&D and questioning the GM when he has a group of Klingons beam down in front of you.
I see nothing wrong with this.  ;D

But in seriousness, I still see nothing wrong with this - it's a furthering of D&D's inherent what-if scenario generation. How do the players react to this change? Do the Klingons win or do the players capture themselves a nice new Vor'cha starship? Sure, the GM is going to get some funny looks, but there is still nothing wrong here. Also; thanks for the idea. *Evil grin*


I apologize for the ad hominem attacks
I would also like to apologize - although I must admit I had fun doing it.

they are too easy to engage in. As you know.
That was kinda the point. You took a shot in the dark - I tend to respond with a barrage when the other person misses.


I seem to have found a hot button of yours and will endeavor not to use a certain word again unless I want you jumping all over my posts.

The word to be careful with is "You". I don't mind someone talking about programming and missing something - this is true for any topic. My problem is when someone takes a shot at someone else (especially if that someone else is me) about a lack of knowledge without direct provocation[5].
 1. That's a total of 100,002 - for those keeping count.
 2. All example situation may be slightly exaggerated for no other reason than because I can.
 3. or for that matter two free men with operable wings and a third eye.
 4. If I were a betting man, this'd be my pick.
 5. There would be a lot less gun-related deaths if everyone shot second, basically.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2012, 01:01:31 PM »
my apology! Mate.
I misunderstood your question #28

All good, it happens.   ;)

Ok, to answer your question

I think people do not choose to have meaningful relationship right away but choose to initiate their effort (by opening their hearts etc.)

Or choose not to.  But when does that choice become available to them?  Before meeting you[1], or after?
 1. I'm including electronic correspondence here - phone, E-mail, whatever sort of two-way communication you like.
I would say after.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2012, 03:42:08 PM »
So, going with the whole point of the thread's allegory, you'd agree that YHWH (or Jesus or whoever) has to first introduce himself - at the very least, convincing someone that he exists - before that person can freely choose to either pursue or avoid a relationship.  Agreed?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2012, 05:02:09 PM »
The word 'convincing' is a tricky one because it can be subjective,depending on each individual.

But I don't want to make this too complicated, so yes agreed.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2012, 08:16:22 PM »
Wonderful.  Then you agree that those to whom your god has not introduced himself, who are not yet convinced of his existence, do not yet have the freedom to choose whether or not to pursue a relationship with him.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 11:25:04 PM »
Today, right at this moment my God is introducing Himself to you through me.

I AM THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS, AND I SENT MY SON TO SAVE YOUR SIN WHOSE EVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL BE SAVED.

now you have all the freedom in the universe to choose.
What do you say?
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2012, 12:07:02 AM »
Today, right at this moment Jackie Chan is introducing Himself to you through me.

HELLO THERE!

now you have all the freedom in the universe to choose [to pursue a relationship with Jackie Chan].
What do you say?
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2012, 12:18:55 AM »
Thanks but no thanks  &)
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2012, 01:03:37 AM »
Thanks but no thanks  &)

But did you really have a choice in the matter?

Would the result be any different if you had said yes? Can you really choose based on some random person on an internet forum offering you a relationship with some other unrelated entity?

-

Nevermind that you didn't exactly fulfill the "convincing" part of the requirements.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2012, 01:26:33 AM »
Would the result be any different if you had said yes?
I thought you were going to at least give me Jackie's phone number if I had said yes
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 01:38:01 AM by anasunakmoon »
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Offline Boots

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2012, 06:54:16 AM »
Today, right at this moment my God is introducing Himself to you through me.

I AM THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS, AND I SENT MY SON TO SAVE YOUR SIN WHOSE EVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL BE SAVED.

now you have all the freedom in the universe to choose.
What do you say?

I say, "I've heard this before."  And I *did* choose god.  In fact, I seriously contemplated priesthood as a late teen.  But god failed to keep up his end of the bargain; he wasn't strong enough to keep the insidious evil called "education" from my paltry brain.   I learned stuff--mainly history and how religions of all type are more of a blight on the world  than a help--and thought for myself, and very gradualy fell away from Roman Catholicism, then Christianity, then theism altogether.

So, here's one example of someone who did, in fact, choose to have a relationship with god.  But he wasn't present enough to maintain it.

My best guess is because he wasn't (isn't) present at all.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2012, 06:55:50 AM »
I thought you were going to at least give me Jackie's phone number if I had said yes

That's where the analogy breaks down, of course.  Jackie Chan has a phone number and such to pass along.  Your deity does not.  So 3rd-party introductions fail.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2012, 10:49:53 AM »
@Boots et al

You're doing it wrong...

Ask not what his God can do for you, but what you can do for his God.
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2012, 10:54:55 AM »
I'll give you god's phone number if you give me Jackie Chan's. Wait a minute. Jackie Chan is god. It would be redundant.



Jackie Chan drinks Chuck Norris' milk shake.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline anasunakmoon

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 05:20:54 PM »

That's where the analogy breaks down, of course.  Jackie Chan has a phone number and such to pass along.  Your deity does not.  So 3rd-party introductions fail.
God does have a phone number in fact, through IT I had become a christian along with millions of fellow members.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness,and of judgement.  Of sin, because they believed not on me (John 16:8-9)

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 05:35:52 PM »

That's where the analogy breaks down, of course.  Jackie Chan has a phone number and such to pass along.  Your deity does not.  So 3rd-party introductions fail.
God does have a phone number in fact, through IT I had become a christian along with millions of fellow members.

What's his phone number? Do I need a long distance plan?

p.s.
Stop being cryptic.
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 05:45:04 PM »
What's his phone number?

666-666-6666

And you don't need a long-distance plan, you just pay with your soul.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Emily

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 05:46:16 PM »
God does have a phone number in fact, through IT I had become a christian along with millions of fellow members.

Given how god doesn't know how to run the simplistic of tasks in the universe, like exist, I highly doubt he knows how to work a phone.
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2012, 05:46:46 PM »
What's his phone number?

666-666-6666

And you don't need a long-distance plan, you just pay with your soul.

credit or debit?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2012, 05:49:36 PM »
Credit.  He only takes Master-card.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Nam

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Re: My Problem with Faith (2 computer programs debate on delusion)
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2012, 07:11:57 PM »
Damn! I only have a Diner's. :(

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.