Your brain, logic and ultimate truth

[magicmiles]

One quick question. Does god appear to be designed, according to the apologist criteria you use to say that  things in the universe appear to be designed? Criteria like complexity, organization, intelligence, intention, function,  etc.

I think you can figure out where I am going with this.

OK...just one quick response, seeing you asked so nicely: I can't say if God appears to be designed. I don't know what His physical appearance is, or even if he has a physical appearance such as we understand that. There is a lot I don't know about God. But what I do know is enough for me to trust God and get to know Him better rather than use what I don't know to pretend what i do know doesn't need to be responded to and beleived.

Sorry..I can't respond further now. I gave this thread a big build up, but as always I bite off more than I can chew. I'd rather cop your wrath and sacrcasm than choke.

[3sigma]

I know you all love to point out there is no evidence for God, but that simply isn’t true.

What we constantly ask for and what you constantly fail to provide is sound evidence and sound arguments to prove your God is real. Sure, there is the so-called evidence that you use to convince yourself that your God is real, but when it is examined objectively, it is found to be composed of nothing more than misapprehensions, fallacies and misrepresentations.

These evidences ring true to me.

Therein lies the problem. Go back and read my reply (#10) again (assuming you even read it the first time) then ask yourself whether you can honestly answer those requests. If you can’t then it is time to consider the possibility that you are simply deceiving yourself.

When I read the bible, something inside me which I simply cannot deny or ignore tells me that I am reading the word of God. I get a sense that God is real.

We call that sense imagination.

Ultimately I have faith, yes FAITH, that God really has loved this world in a way which will prove in the end to be the greatest way possible, and that the suffering we see and experience is not meaningless and allowed to exist out for no good reason.

In the religious context, faith is just a euphemism for gullibility or self-deception.

And I can’t commit to any more time on the thread.

So much for not ignoring posts, I see.

[HAL]

Yea, but I will predict something -

All this will mean absolutely nothing to him.

Sorry..I can't respond further now. I gave this thread a big build up, but as always I bite off more than I can chew. I'd rather cop your wrath and sacrcasm than choke.

Man, am I good or what.

[The Wannabe]

OK...just one quick response, seeing you asked so nicely: I can't say if God appears to be designed. I don't know what His physical appearance is, or even if he has a physical appearance such as we understand that. There is a lot I don't know about God. But what I do know is enough for me to trust God and get to know Him better rather than use what I don't know to pretend what i do know doesn't need to be responded to and beleived.

Of course he doesn't have a physical appearance, he doesn't exist.  This "experience" of God you keep telling us about is little more then a socially accepted imaginary friend that believers are encouraged to foster and nurture within the confines of their mind.  You're constantly creating a well crafted fiction in your head that acts as a sort of reality filter, the only thing is, you don't know it's fiction.  When a tsunami hits a vulnerable city, and thousands are killed, a Christian overlays the fiction of a loving creator with a divine plan onto the tragic reality of the disaster to soften the blow. 

You see the thing is, magicmiles, what we've been saying through the course of this thread is that you have no evidence to support your claims.  You can try and throw us off with epistemological bullshit all you want, the fact is, scientific empiricism works, and furthermore, it can be applied to answer the question of whether or not your god exists.  When you pray, does it affect the outside world in any real or meaningful way, or do the events in question play out just like they would if we lived in an atheistic universe?   How do you explain the existence of evil if this deity you worship is benevolent and empathetic to human suffering?  Does God have an observable affect on reality, or only your mind?

Sorry..I can't respond further now. I gave this thread a big build up, but as always I bite off more than I can chew. I'd rather cop your wrath and sacrcasm than choke.

It's ok, you don't have to respond.  We all know you'll be carefully reading the responses, and whether you want to admit it or not, i believe they're starting to make an impact.  Do try and leave your defensiveness and Christian bias at the door, and honestly process all the arguments that have presented so far.  Oh, and good luck with your computer troubles, maybe you should try praying.  We'll wait and see what happens. 

[Xero-Kill]

^^^ Or better yet, don't pray and watch how your computer problems get fixed in the exact same manner as if you didn't ask the creator of existence for assistance.

EDIT: The comment is directed at MM based on Wannabe' suggestion that he pray for it. Just wanted to clarify.

[nogodsforme]

One quick question. Does god appear to be designed, according to the apologist criteria you use to say that  things in the universe appear to be designed? Criteria like complexity, organization, intelligence, intention, function,  etc.

I think you can figure out where I am going with this.

OK...just one quick response, seeing you asked so nicely: I can't say if God appears to be designed. I don't know what His physical appearance is, or even if he has a physical appearance such as we understand that. There is a lot I don't know about God. But what I do know is enough for me to trust God and get to know Him better rather than use what I don't know to pretend what i do know doesn't need to be responded to and beleived.

Sorry..I can't respond further now. I gave this thread a big build up, but as always I bite off more than I can chew. I'd rather cop your wrath and sacrcasm than choke.

I always ask nicely. I even ask Nicely Nicely.

[shnozzola]

The thing that bothers me so much is some christian views that an atheist somehow has put themselves on a pedestal.  I don’t feel that way at all – even less important than a grain of sand – and once discarding  the god idea, I am, however, that much more impressed with what randomness has led to in the intelligence of mankind – infinitely more amazing than some sort of magic god creation.  Once the light bulb clicks, it all clicks, and I can’t see how you could ever go back to some sort of “can do anything” being that is obsessed with good and bad humans on the little planet in the milky way galaxy.

[Aspie]

The major flaw in your argument is that you assume what the brain tells you and what experience tells you are two very distinct things. In both cases you are simply receiving testimony from one source; a source that's well-known for hedging truth for the sake of personal comfort, a source that's well-known for holding mutually exclusive ideas, a source that's well-known for screening information that doesn't conform to its biases. By elevating the value of personal experience above evidence truth comes down solely to the conviction of personal beliefs and interpretation of reality becomes a means of imposing worldviews upon others, a vehicle for personal agendas. By institutionalizing someone who believes that the government is monitoring their thoughts through their tooth fillings you are using your personal experience to invalidate theirs. By throwing someone in a jail you are disregarding their interpretation of events that convinces them they aren't a criminal. You are arguing for a world where truth and justice are meaningless because all it comes down to is a might-makes-right arena of opinions.

By promoting such a solipsistic worldview your Almighty God is reduced to a guy playing darts with earth's population, hitting random people with "objective truth" that is indistinguishable from fantasy because evidence can mean whatever each individual decides it to mean. Salvation is reduced to a game of lottery where people have to first spend about 70 or so years bumping into each other before they find out if they've won.

[kin hell]

By promoting such a solipsistic worldview your Almighty God is reduced to a guy playing darts with earth's population, hitting random people with "objective truth" that is indistinguishable from fantasy because evidence can mean whatever each individual decides it to mean.

nice line

[HAL]

And I can’t commit to any more time on the thread. I hope that doesn’t anger you. I will read the responses to this post, and if you have something you really badly want me to respond to please send me a PM.  Please try to understand that I really am busy, and spend more time than I should on the forum as it is. I’m sure I’ll participate further, but not for a while.

Look at the members who took time to respond to your bait -

Jetson, 3sigma, The Wannabe, HAL, JeffPT, kcrady, and all the others.

Yes it does make me angry. You're really busy? Really?

Then why the fuck did you ask people to honestly respond when you don't have enough time for it all? This is why I predicted you would do exactly what you did - dissappoint honest people and their attempts to help you - because that's exactly what you did. I knew no matter what was said you would equivocate it right damn back into a justification for your delusion. It happens all the time unfortunately. There is no way we really know if you are too busy or are just afraid to stand up to the reason presented and allow people to press you further. It's funny, theists are never too busy to start these types of threads. Go figure.

I just wish there was some way to make theists here commit to what they so easily start but can't manage to finish.

Bad, bad theist.

[inveni0]

The answer is experience. We might measure train tracks and believe we have verified they are equal distance apart all the way, but it's not until a train has successfully travelled along those tracks that it is truly verified.

No.  Experiencing a ride on the tracks does not tell you that they are parallel.  Experiencing the act of measuring the tracks is what does that.  You are choosing to believe perception instead of reality.  Don't forget, Math is not subjective.  It is not arbitrary.  It existed before mankind, and it will exist afterward.  The universe runs on it.

Math is God.

if for no other reason than to put some evidences on the table. These evidences ring true to me. They don’t to you, apparently, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, any more than my rejection of the scientific evidences for random creation eliminate their existence.

This is very valid.  I believe that people who experience God have genuine experiences.  Their perceptions are real.  Just like viewing that optical illusion is a genuine perception.  You genuinely see that the lines are not parallel.

But genuine perceptions and truth do not always align.  It's recognizing this fact that allows us to elevate above our natural instincts.  Realizing that God is just a figment of perception is what brings us above the animals.

And I can’t commit to any more time on the thread. I hope that doesn’t anger you. I will read the responses to this post, and if you have something you really badly want me to respond to please send me a PM.  Please try to understand that I really am busy, and spend more time than I should on the forum as it is. I’m sure I’ll participate further, but not for a while.

Typical.  Don't come and ask questions if you aren't willing to devote time to thinking about the questions you're asking.  You are a coward, and you've ended this "logical" discussion by saying that you choose to believe your imagination because "it feels real in my head".

Willful ignorance is one of humanity's greatest crimes.

[Garja]

I don't always agree with HAL but when I do, he is right.


It is pretty shitty to set up a situation where some legitimate issues can be tackled, then not deliver.

[12 Monkeys]

 So the ultimate truth is that MagicMiles has vanished because he is unable to defend his position from our brains and logic?

[screwtape]

Sorry..I can't respond further now. I gave this thread a big build up, but as always I bite off more than I can chew. I'd rather cop your wrath and sacrcasm than choke.

Oy, asshole,

I'm as sick of this crap as other members are.  It is ungrateful and disrespectful.  Cut it the fuck out. 

[nogodsforme]

What does it mean when magic miles cops out (again)? It means we win.

[magicmiles]

What does it mean when magic miles cops out (again)? It means we win.

It means I actually really do have no time to spare for the forum. I don’t even have the time that I do spend on here, but I give in too easily because I enjoy the discussions. But really, how can I be expected to respond to every individual response I get in any sort of detail? If I do that, more questions arise and I have another 2 hours of responses ahead of me. How much is enough? It’s not like you would ever let me get the last word in…there will ALWAYS be more questions and challenges for me to respond to.  I start threads with the intention of expressing my opinions and having other express theirs in turn. I read them, and often I respond individually. In this instance I simply wasn’t going to be able to do that. I read all the responses…I considered them. I thanked you for taking the time. I bore the responses in mind when I made my follow up post (which took me more than an hour).  But if I need to draw a line in the sand then I think that’s fair enough. The rule about responding to questions (which I am now on warning for) is a hell of a lot harder for theists to follow than atheists, that’s why The Shelter was brought in.

I think you should be grateful I spend as much time as I do discussing these matters with you, how frikking boring would this place be if you had no or very limited theist input? It’d be nothing but “oh look,  an idiot Christian politician thinks such and such about this, ha ha” or “well…look what these religious nuts have done now…”. I mean, don’t get me wrong, they’re incredibly thoughtful threads and goodness knows you all need reminding of what assholes us religious types are, but without some theist input you’d be pretty tired of it I reckon.

So looks like next time I decide I have said enough on a subject I will be banned, which in a sense I’d be quite pleased with.

mm

[jetson]

mm,

No one expects you to answer every member in detail.  I think you know this.  I truly hope you can understand some of the frustration this thread has generated.  Give it some thought, at the very least.

Jet

[magicmiles]

mm,

No one expects you to answer every member in detail.  I think you know this.  I truly hope you can understand some of the frustration this thread has generated.  Give it some thought, at the very least.

Jet

Sure, so long as others give thought to what I said. And it wasn't a rhetorical question I asked: How much is enough? Who decides? If I consider I have said as much on the subject as I can, I think I should make that call and spend what time I spend on here looking at other threads.

[HAL]

Sure, so long as others give thought to what I said. And it wasn't a rhetorical question I asked: How much is enough?

A whole lot more than you have mustered.

[Ambassador Pony]

Agreed. Your warning level just went up, MM.

[magicmiles]

Agreed. Your warning level just went up, MM.

OK - what does that mean? How many more strikes before I'm out?

[Ambassador Pony]

Agreed. Your warning level just went up, MM.

OK - what does that mean? How many more strikes before I'm out?

Why is it necessary for you to ask? Just have some integrity.

A guy gets one Crady-slap, and skips thread. You started the thread, you stay the course, and if you've got the computer issues and whatnot, or lost the steam, don't go ahead and start up in another thread. It's rude, at best.

Off you go now. Two hail marys, and go respond to folk in that thread.

[12 Monkeys]

What does it mean when magic miles cops out (again)? It means we win.

It means I actually really do have no time to spare for the forum. I don’t even have the time that I do spend on here, but I give in too easily because I enjoy the discussions. But really, how can I be expected to respond to every individual response I get in any sort of detail? If I do that, more questions arise and I have another 2 hours of responses ahead of me. How much is enough? It’s not like you would ever let me get the last word in…there will ALWAYS be more questions and challenges for me to respond to.  I start threads with the intention of expressing my opinions and having other express theirs in turn. I read them, and often I respond individually. In this instance I simply wasn’t going to be able to do that. I read all the responses…I considered them. I thanked you for taking the time. I bore the responses in mind when I made my follow up post (which took me more than an hour).  But if I need to draw a line in the sand then I think that’s fair enough. The rule about responding to questions (which I am now on warning for) is a hell of a lot harder for theists to follow than atheists, that’s why The Shelter was brought in.

I think you should be grateful I spend as much time as I do discussing these matters with you, how frikking boring would this place be if you had no or very limited theist input? It’d be nothing but “oh look,  an idiot Christian politician thinks such and such about this, ha ha” or “well…look what these religious nuts have done now…”. I mean, don’t get me wrong, they’re incredibly thoughtful threads and goodness knows you all need reminding of what assholes us religious types are, but without some theist input you’d be pretty tired of it I reckon.

So looks like next time I decide I have said enough on a subject I will be banned, which in a sense I’d be quite pleased with.

mm

Is it because you are housing and feeding the homeless,helping the downtrodden,selling all your possesions and giving to the poor,helping rape victims.......I bet you are NOT doing any of that

[The Wannabe]

magicmiles,

Why did you start this thread?  Was it to pursue truth with your fellow humans, or was it to have a little fun at the atheists expense?  You didn't come into this conversation looking for any real answers, you've decided from a priori that you're subjective experiences trump objective reality.  Until this changes, you're wasting not only our time, but your own as well.

I mean, isn't it so completely obvious?!  You're god is imaginary.  You can just as easily have a spiritual, subjective experience with Star Wars for gods sake.  Read your bible critically and with a little skepticism.  Look at the state of the world we live in and then ask yourself if the existence of a benevolent creator logically follows.  Push past your theistic bias and objectively weigh the evidence, see where it leads.  A million bucks says that you'll find yourself on this side of the fence, and i for one think you're scared of that.

You've left this forum once, If you're not willing to be honest and have a little intellectual integrity when it comes to the validity of your beliefs, i don't really see the point in you extending your stay here any longer.

[inveni0]

Agreed. Your warning level just went up, MM.

OK - what does that mean? How many more strikes before I'm out?

I used to visit this forum as a theist.  I understand where you're coming from.  But listen to me when I tell you that the reason it's hard for you to respond to the questions you're being asked is because your brain is trying desperately to fabricate "answers" while still grasping onto its feeble structure of belief.

In other words, quit trying to answer the questions, and start trying to ask them.  You'll see that your religion has no answers, either.