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Offline muchlove

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Hello
« on: August 13, 2012, 03:34:56 AM »
Hi.  I've been hanging out here a couple of weeks.  Mostly reading and observing.  It is very interesting, discovering a whole online community of people who come together around a common thread of non-belief and discussing the impact of religion on society and culture.  Anyway, I just wanted to say "hello" and perhaps converse with a few of you from time to time if the opportunity arises.  I am a theist. 


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Re: Hello
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 03:55:57 AM »
greetings fellow earthling

welcome to the machine

which particular theism do you believe in?

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It is very interesting, discovering a whole online community of people who come together around a common thread of non-belief and discussing the impact of religion on society and culture.

this is a very ambiguous statement muchlove, please feel free to expand upon it.


anyway I'm sure you'll get to meet many of the inmates here soon   hope you have fun, and I look forward to seeing you around the boards.

"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 04:25:51 AM »
greetings fellow earthling

welcome to the machine

which particular theism do you believe in?

Christianity. 

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Quote
It is very interesting, discovering a whole online community of people who come together around a common thread of non-belief and discussing the impact of religion on society and culture.

this is a very ambiguous statement muchlove, please feel free to expand upon it.

I suppose it is a little ambiguous.  It certainly is not intended as a negative statement, hopefully it wasn't taken as such.  I meant that it is interesting for me to be able to read and interact with an entire group sharing a common viewpoint that I am relatively unfamiliar with, and entirely different from my own.  I've seen a very visible impact this past decade on Western society and culture (USA specifically) from a growing atheist voice.  From advertisements in subways and on buses, to best selling books, to high-profile personalities, and even local chapters of various kinds meeting and even "evangelizing" atheism, it really is a movement which is having a significant impact on culture.  I especially see this growing influence in youth culture, where large groups of young people are growing up and shedding religion.  Unlike their parents who maybe "rebelled" for a time, these young people are rejecting religion outright.  It's an interesting shift that I think our culture is experiencing, and I think it is largely due to this very influential and visible voice. 

Quote
anyway I'm sure you'll get to meet many of the inmates here soon   hope you have fun, and I look forward to seeing you around the boards.

Thanks!

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Hello
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 05:31:21 AM »
Welcome to the forum, muchlove.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 05:51:48 AM »
I am a theist.

Do you have a personal relationship with god? Can you talk to him? Does he actually speak to you?
What does he say?


Or perhaps you are a theist in theory kind of person?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Hello
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 06:04:52 AM »
Welcome to the forums!

As you've been perusing for the last couple of weeks, I am sure you know what to expect from us. The important thing I would say, no matter how heated things get, try not to take things personally, unless of course somebody makes a personal attack and if for any reason that happens you've got the "Report to Moderator" button. Many try to be tough, but it's how we operate here, so thick skin is kinda a requirement. If that's not for you, there are less tough atheist boards out there, but you seem polite and respectful enough in your introduction here, so I hope you do stay. :)

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I meant that it is interesting for me to be able to read and interact with an entire group sharing a common viewpoint that I am relatively unfamiliar with, and entirely different from my own

Then I hope there is much you can learn here. :) Bear in mind one thing - you might see it here, but then you might not - atheists are pretty diverse, so with what you do learn, understand that it doesn't necessarily represent every type of atheist out there.

You will find here, most will be out to invalidate your beliefs, because the website is pretty much dedicated to the validity of the bible. Some people find such behaviour offensive and get angry with us, others embrace it and maybe even enjoy the challenge. :)
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Hello
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 07:05:05 AM »
Hello muchlove, welcome to our little corner of the Internet (hang on, does the Internet have corners? Or is it round?! The questions!!!! ;) )

I suppose it is a little ambiguous.  It certainly is not intended as a negative statement, hopefully it wasn't taken as such.  I meant that it is interesting for me to be able to read and interact with an entire group sharing a common viewpoint that I am relatively unfamiliar with, and entirely different from my own.  I've seen a very visible impact this past decade on Western society and culture (USA specifically) from a growing atheist voice.  From advertisements in subways and on buses, to best selling books, to high-profile personalities, and even local chapters of various kinds meeting and even "evangelizing" atheism, it really is a movement which is having a significant impact on culture.  I especially see this growing influence in youth culture, where large groups of young people are growing up and shedding religion.  Unlike their parents who maybe "rebelled" for a time, these young people are rejecting religion outright.  It's an interesting shift that I think our culture is experiencing, and I think it is largely due to this very influential and visible voice. 

If I may ... what part of this is cause and which is the effect?
I mean, my grandparents barely knew there was this thing called 'Islam', 'protestant' was something odd the Dutch did and Jews killed Jesus. Information that used to require a trip to a well stocked library and several hours of reading and searching is now available in 2 minutes right in the comfort of your own home. Points that seemed valid and remained unchallenged a couple of decades ago, you can now debunk with a simple google search.
So, youngsters these days come to the conclusion that none of the thousands of available gods check out and they think they're alone in the desert, so to speak. Then, they discover there are others in that desert with them. It's fairly natural for them to band together and, eventually speak out.

So, is it a small core of atheists "evangelizing" and thereby changing people's minds?
Or is what you're seeing simple the already convinced 'coming out'?
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Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 11:13:31 AM »

Do you have a personal relationship with god? Can you talk to him? Does he actually speak to you?
What does he say?


Or perhaps you are a theist in theory kind of person?

Most people I know who profess a faith in God view it as a relationship (not all, but that tends to be a common trait through much of Christianity), and I think most would like to believe God speaks to them (myself included) through a variety of mechanisms. 

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 11:25:24 AM »
Welcome to the forums!

As you've been perusing for the last couple of weeks, I am sure you know what to expect from us. The important thing I would say, no matter how heated things get, try not to take things personally, unless of course somebody makes a personal attack and if for any reason that happens you've got the "Report to Moderator" button. Many try to be tough, but it's how we operate here, so thick skin is kinda a requirement. If that's not for you, there are less tough atheist boards out there, but you seem polite and respectful enough in your introduction here, so I hope you do stay. :)

Thanks!

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Quote
I meant that it is interesting for me to be able to read and interact with an entire group sharing a common viewpoint that I am relatively unfamiliar with, and entirely different from my own

Then I hope there is much you can learn here. :) Bear in mind one thing - you might see it here, but then you might not - atheists are pretty diverse, so with what you do learn, understand that it doesn't necessarily represent every type of atheist out there.

Same goes for theists, or people who gather in any community for that matter, regardless of what commonalities bring them together :)

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You will find here, most will be out to invalidate your beliefs, because the website is pretty much dedicated to the validity of the bible. Some people find such behaviour offensive and get angry with us, others embrace it and maybe even enjoy the challenge. :)

To some degree, it would seem this would be expected, especially as I have read more and more of the threads and topics.  I'm not argumentative or confrontational by nature, so it probably is not a challenge I would personally enjoy, but I don't necessarily view it as offensive either, and, generally speaking, I'm not easily offended on a personal level.

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 12:00:01 PM »
If I may ... what part of this is cause and which is the effect?
I mean, my grandparents barely knew there was this thing called 'Islam', 'protestant' was something odd the Dutch did and Jews killed Jesus. Information that used to require a trip to a well stocked library and several hours of reading and searching is now available in 2 minutes right in the comfort of your own home. Points that seemed valid and remained unchallenged a couple of decades ago, you can now debunk with a simple google search.
So, youngsters these days come to the conclusion that none of the thousands of available gods check out and they think they're alone in the desert, so to speak. Then, they discover there are others in that desert with them. It's fairly natural for them to band together and, eventually speak out.

So, is it a small core of atheists "evangelizing" and thereby changing people's minds?
Or is what you're seeing simple the already convinced 'coming out'?

I think it is a mixture of many things.  It's not simply one cause and effect, it is a variety of factors, which, as a whole, are having a profound influence on "belief"  in culture, especially among young people.  I'm drawing that conclusion from a study I read recently that highlighted this particular topic of this current generation shedding religion as not seen before in previous generations.  The article cited an actual shift rather than just a cycle, as seen in previous patterns of belief, and highlighted by this particular study. It was either on CNN or Yahoo's network somewhere, but it was an interesting read.  I think there is almost always the "coming out" effect, for example, that happens when others take the lead and step out to voice something others might be feeling, questioning, etc.  So, I think there are likely a variety of factors contributing to this shift, including a much more visible and focused campaign to invalidate, or at a minimum, question religion and belief very publicly and directly.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2012, 05:04:31 PM »

Do you have a personal relationship with god? Can you talk to him? Does he actually speak to you?
What does he say?

Most people I know who profess a faith in God view it as a relationship (not all, but that tends to be a common trait through much of Christianity), and I think most would like to believe God speaks to them (myself included) through a variety of mechanisms.

What "mechanisms" and why are these mechanisms not found  in the bible? Why are all the accounts of god speaking to man in the Bible clearly verbal, in the language of the receiver?
In acts 19, christians have to be re-baptized because they can not hear the voice of the holy spirit, how are you different than them?

After your answer we can move this to a discussion topic. Anyway, welcome to the forum. I promise you'll learn something!



                                                                              Yea! My 1000th post!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 05:12:06 PM by Brakeman »
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Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2012, 06:42:30 PM »
What "mechanisms" and why are these mechanisms not found  in the bible? Why are all the accounts of god speaking to man in the Bible clearly verbal, in the language of the receiver?

In acts 19, christians have to be re-baptized because they can not hear the voice of the holy spirit, how are you different than them?

There are a variety of ways that I believe that God speaks, and the Bible speaks of all of them.  Scripture, prayer, prophecy, Holy Spirit, etc.  This is by no means an exhaustive list, but all of these are mechanisms seen in scripture.  We can discuss Acts 19 later, but Paul is speaking about two different baptisms for sure.

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Anyway, welcome to the forum. I promise you'll learn something!

I love to learn, so I am sure that I will happen in my time here.  I already have gleaned much just from reading through several of the threads these past couple of weeks.

Yea! My 1000th post!

Congratulations on this milestone :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 07:06:01 PM by muchlove »

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 07:06:01 PM »
Thanks!

So What has god told you? Or are you and god holding back secrets from the rest of us?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 07:16:50 PM »
Thanks!

So What has god told you? Or are you and god holding back secrets from the rest of us?

That would be far too much to mention in a single post.  He speaks to me every time I read through scripture, if I accept it as divinely inspired.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Hello
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 08:34:01 PM »
Hi muchlove, I'm late to the intro. I haven't gotten to read your posts yet but I hope you are enjoying your stay.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Garja

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Re: Hello
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 09:36:28 PM »
Welcome Muchlove.  Be prepared to have your beliefs questioned, but as someone else said on here, try not to take it personally.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2012, 12:43:23 AM »
Hi muchlove, I'm late to the intro. I haven't gotten to read your posts yet but I hope you are enjoying your stay.

Thanks Kimberly.

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2012, 12:44:46 AM »
Welcome Muchlove.  Be prepared to have your beliefs questioned, but as someone else said on here, try not to take it personally.

Thanks Garja.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Hello
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2012, 09:06:03 AM »
Just a reminder to all, this is an Introduction thread, not a debate thread.
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2012, 11:12:37 AM »
I was only looking to see what kind of theist he was. I was careful to avoid taking any opposing position as required in a debate.

I hope he will join in a debate thread though, he seems pretty serious.

Thanks,
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hello
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 11:59:48 AM »
That's fine.  No one is in trouble or even being scolded.  It was just a reminder before conversation drifted into debat.
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Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 12:56:54 PM »
That's fine.  No one is in trouble or even being scolded.  It was just a reminder before conversation drifted into debat.

Thanks Screwtape, I didn't want to turn the intro thread into too much of a discussion, but I didn't want to ignore Brakeman's questions if it would give him some better insight into my background.

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2012, 01:19:13 PM »
I was only looking to see what kind of theist he was. I was careful to avoid taking any opposing position as required in a debate.

I hope he will join in a debate thread though, he seems pretty serious.

Thanks,

Brakeman, I'm not so much interested in debate (heated passionate arguing and attempting to prove a position right or wrong) at this juncture as I am discussion (an open dialog back and forth).  Is there such a thing as a semi-private discussion thread where we can discuss some of these things you're interested in?  I'm not opposed to others being able to look in, I'm just concerned with getting bombarded with 50 people all wanting their questions answered rather than a single person wanting to discuss something, as it appears I am one of the few theists currently participating in this community forum.  I'm not opposed to having my beliefs challenged, I just don't want to be overwhelmed by having them challenged simultaneously by 50 users all wanting answers and being unable to keep up with the many questions and viewpoints.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Hello
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2012, 01:26:03 PM »
I'm not so much interested in debate (heated passionate arguing and attempting to prove a position right or wrong) at this juncture as I am discussion (an open dialog back and forth).  Is there such a thing as a semi-private discussion thread where we can discuss some of these things you're interested in?  I'm not opposed to others being able to look in, I'm just concerned with getting bombarded with 50 people all wanting their questions answered rather than a single person wanting to discuss something, as it appears I am one of the few theists currently participating in this community forum.  I'm not opposed to having my beliefs challenged, I just don't want to be overwhelmed by having them challenged simultaneously by 50 users all wanting answers and being unable to keep up with the many questions and viewpoints.

Very wise.  This is a common problem and is one of the reasons I don't participate in pro-theist discussion forums.  It's also one of the reasons we lose a lot of theists here, including ones that we have been very anxious to keep.

There is a section called "Debates", where you can participate in one-on-one interactions.  It's called "Debate", but now that I think about it, I don't see any reason that it would necessarily need to be of the type that you mention.  If there's one person you'd like to exchange thoughts with about a particular notion, you can ask the moderators to set up a thread for you (after the person you want to talk to agrees, of course).

And welcome to WWGHA.  :)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hello
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2012, 02:28:30 PM »
Brakeman, I'm not so much interested in debate (heated passionate arguing and attempting to prove a position right or wrong) at this juncture as I am discussion (an open dialog back and forth).  Is there such a thing as a semi-private discussion thread where we can discuss some of these things you're interested in?

There are three options available.

1. the Shelter.  It is an area primarily for theists and atheists to exchange ideas.  Your feet will not be held to the fire there.  And only select atheists are allowed in.  You have been given access already.

2. Debate rooms.  As pianodwarf pointed out, they are public threads intended for 1 on 1 interaction.  The participants may make of them what they want, be it formal, structured debate or just a way to limit conversation.  It is almost never used for the latter.  The whole forum will be able to view the discussion, so it is in no way private.  There will be a corresponding commentary thread for non-participants to gab about it. The closed debates are kept for posterity.  Take a gander.

3. Private Message.  I do not encourage this.  Private messages may not be posted in public without all parties involved agreeing.  They are completely unmoderated and can become messy.  The point of a forum is the public nature of it, so I don't really think of this as an option.

 
 
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2012, 05:40:55 PM »
Brakeman, I'm not so much interested in debate (heated passionate arguing and attempting to prove a position right or wrong) at this juncture as I am discussion (an open dialog back and forth).  Is there such a thing as a semi-private discussion thread where we can discuss some of these things you're interested in?  I'm not opposed to others being able to look in, I'm just concerned with getting bombarded with 50 people all wanting their questions answered rather than a single person wanting to discuss something, as it appears I am one of the few theists currently participating in this community forum.  I'm not opposed to having my beliefs challenged, I just don't want to be overwhelmed by having them challenged simultaneously by 50 users all wanting answers and being unable to keep up with the many questions and viewpoints.

I know what you mean, I like friendly questions and contemplations without the stress. Although there is the shelter, only the "chosen ones" may enter in. But usually that isn't necessary anyway, as the discussions tend to be even handed on most days. If a theist starts preaching that god'll burn us and that we are unworthy, then they in turn get equally rude replies. I'm pretty thick skinned myself and as I'm a Baptist Preacher's kid from the south, I tend to anticipate theist inflammatory remarks and let them pass without too much notice.

Christians are bound by god's command to witness to those who wish to hear the good news according to the great commission, and as I would honestly like to find out if I am wrong in my skepticism, I hope you would follow me to a regular thread to discuss how god talks to you and how he never spoke to me.

I'll make a thread and ask that others either stay on the topic path or refrain from posting.

Thanks for your enlightening candor.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2012, 05:44:40 PM »
Brakeman, I'm not so much interested in debate (heated passionate arguing and attempting to prove a position right or wrong) at this juncture as I am discussion (an open dialog back and forth).  Is there such a thing as a semi-private discussion thread where we can discuss some of these things you're interested in?  I'm not opposed to others being able to look in, I'm just concerned with getting bombarded with 50 people all wanting their questions answered rather than a single person wanting to discuss something, as it appears I am one of the few theists currently participating in this community forum.  I'm not opposed to having my beliefs challenged, I just don't want to be overwhelmed by having them challenged simultaneously by 50 users all wanting answers and being unable to keep up with the many questions and viewpoints.

I know what you mean, I like friendly questions and contemplations without the stress. Although there is the shelter, only the "chosen ones" may enter in. But usually that isn't necessary anyway, as the discussions tend to be even handed on most days. If a theist starts preaching that god'll burn us and that we are unworthy, then they in turn get equally rude replies. I'm pretty thick skinned myself and as I'm a Baptist Preacher's kid from the south, I tend to anticipate theist inflammatory remarks and let them pass without too much notice.

Christians are bound by god's command to witness to those who wish to hear the good news according to the great commission, and as I would honestly like to find out if I am wrong in my skepticism, I hope you would follow me to a regular thread to discuss how god talks to you and how he never spoke to me.

I'll make a thread and ask that others either stay on the topic path or refrain from posting.

Thanks for your enlightening candor.

Brakeman,

Screwtape mentioned the option of setting up a debate thread and using it for discussion.  Others can "look in" that way, but can't really comment directly in the post, only in an accompanying discussion thread.  That might be another option to consider.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hello
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2012, 05:51:51 PM »
ok either way, I've already started one at:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23536.new.html#new

But please, you're the guest, you choose..
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Offline muchlove

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Re: Hello
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2012, 06:36:30 PM »
ok either way, I've already started one at:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23536.new.html#new

But please, you're the guest, you choose..

Since you've already started a thread, let's give that a try.  If we have any issues, we'll have Screwtape or another mod start a debate thread that we can use for a one-on-one discussion.