Walking on water

[Graybeard]

I saw this recently and it made me laugh. However, there is a serious theological point here:

Whereas the treadmills are all moving, the water isn't, and that's reasonable because if you were on the surface of the water, all your feet would do is slip- think of water skiing. This is not like swimming where you push away kilos/pounds of water and the equal and opposite reaction moves you forwards.

Matthew 14:22-33, "24 But the boat was now in the midst of the sea, distressed by the waves; for the wind was contrary. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came unto them, walking upon the sea."
Mark 6:45-52, "49 but they, when they saw him walking on the sea, supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; 50 for they all saw him, and were troubled. "
and
John 6:16-21 "19 When therefore they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they behold Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the boat: and they were afraid."

So, quite simply, even if by some trick you could stand on water, you could not generate the friction to actually walk.

Note that the three gospels all say "walking", not standing, hovering, floating, moving, flying, gliding, sliding, cruising, or any other action.

I suspect that the Iron Age peasants had not worked that one out before they invented the story. (I have dismissed the idea that the lake had a slope on it or there was a small surfboard.)

[magicmiles]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

Get over the first hurdle of believing God is real and the rest will come easy to you. Most of it.

[jetson]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

Get over the first hurdle of believing God is real and the rest will come easy to you. Most of it.

LOL.  See, you are a valuable member of the forum!

[magicmiles]

Hey, I don't live in some Christian mind-wash vaccuum.

I know belief in God is a hurdle. It's just that I've made the jump. Some of you haven't tried jumping, some have tried and given up in disgust, etc etc.

( I hear some of you made it over but then jumped back again )

[HAL]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

That's not much of a law then is it?

[jetson]

I know belief in God is a hurdle.

Really?  It seems to be super-duper simple and easy for so many.  What's the hurdle all about?  Or are you just referring to us heathens that are struggling to make the leap?

[magicmiles]

Non-believers. Yes. I apprreciate there is an assault on your logical sensibilities, is what I mean to say.

[Brakeman]

It's not a hurdle, its a slippery slope with every crack and crevice filled with SPAG.

[Graybeard]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

No. That's not possible. The main problem comes not in the way people make excuses for God and make exceptions for Him that they will not make for other events; it comes at the level of shoe sole/water interface and we know enough about that to say that walking on water will not work - if you tried to move, you'd fall on your arse.

[Traveler]

No. That's not possible. The main problem comes not in the way people make excuses for God and make exceptions for Him that they will not make for other events; it comes at the level of shoe sole/water interface and we know enough about that to say that walking on water will not work - if you tried to move, you'd fall on your arse.

We also know that if you stood on water you'd sink. Once you're through the looking glass I don't really see any reason to quibble about absurdities.

[jetson]

No. That's not possible. The main problem comes not in the way people make excuses for God and make exceptions for Him that they will not make for other events; it comes at the level of shoe sole/water interface and we know enough about that to say that walking on water will not work - if you tried to move, you'd fall on your arse.

We also know that if you stood on water you'd sink. Once you're through the looking glass I don't really see any reason to quibble about absurdities.

Unless we're talking about virgin births and resurrections, of course!  Then it's all Jesus, all the time.

[Garja]

Non-believers. Yes. I apprreciate there is an assault on your logical sensibilities, is what I mean to say.

This is not an attempt to derail the thread, but I have a legitimate question that you seem like you may be the person to ask.  Honestly, I ask the following more as an attempt to understand my mother who has entrenched christian beliefs, but cannot support them with ANYTHING.  When I believed I was at least familiar with the standard "proofs" of God.

You say (basically) that you recognize a belief in God is illogical.  You have been a member of this forum longer than I so you obviously see that the evidence is scant.  How then do you make yourself believe something that has so little evidence?  How or why would a God create the world in such a way that it LOOKS uncreated by any scientific measure?  How or why would God give humans the ability to reason, use logic and critical thinking and then expect us to NOT use those abilities when looking at him?

I am not attacking at all, I legitimately dont understand it.

[kin hell]

Non-believers. Yes. I apprreciate there is an assault on your logical sensibilities, is what I mean to say.

This is not an attempt to derail the thread, but I have a legitimate question that you seem like you may be the person to ask.  Honestly, I ask the following more as an attempt to understand my mother who has entrenched christian beliefs, but cannot support them with ANYTHING.  When I believed I was at least familiar with the standard "proofs" of God.

You say (basically) that you recognize a belief in God is illogical.  You have been a member of this forum longer than I so you obviously see that the evidence is scant.  How then do you make yourself believe something that has so little evidence?  How or why would a God create the world in such a way that it LOOKS uncreated by any scientific measure?  How or why would God give humans the ability to reason, use logic and critical thinking and then expect us to NOT use those abilities when looking at him?

I am not attacking at all, I legitimately dont understand it.

Fair query Garja   ....worth making a separate thread         I'd like to hear magic's thoughts

[jdawg70]

Hey, I don't live in some Christian mind-wash vaccuum.

I know belief in God is a hurdle. It's just that I've made the jump. Some of you haven't tried jumping, some have tried and given up in disgust, etc etc.

( I hear some of you made it over but then jumped back again )

I hate to nitpick, but that last chunk of sentence would probably be better written as:
"some have tried and given up because it doesn't seem true to them"

...as I suspect it is more common to reject the idea of the existence of god because they find the idea to be untrue, rather than because they find it to be unpalatable.

Just didn't want that to slip by.

[Graybeard]

Get over the first hurdle of believing God is real and the rest will come easy to you. Most of it.

We also know that if you stood on water you'd sink. Once you're through the looking glass I don't really see any reason to quibble about absurdities.

Well, obviously, and magicmiles agrees with you. He says, "First believe in God and then you will believe in God."

However, what I was doing was giving another aspect. Magicmiles, in common with other members of the various sects of Christianity put themselves in a state of mind whereby Jesus walking on water" is perfectly acceptable - it is part of their culture, they see nothing wonderful about it at all - it's just another miracle. They know that the surface of water will not bear the weight but that contradiction in the story is part of their mind; it is not questioned, it is accepted without thought.

The point I was making was that there is another way of looking at "walking on water"; one that would make the reader think - one that would take them out of their comfort zone of blind acceptance.

"OK, let's say the water does support you - how are you going to move?" I would hazard a guess than no one has asked magicmiles that question. He falls back on the "God can do anything argument - but this, when friction is examined, does not hold water (pun intended)

Having now explained that to you, I suppose some of the surprise has gone out of my point and magicmiles is probably quite happy to believe in "Godly and Miraculous Friction”.

[Brakeman]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

Get over the first hurdle of believing God is real and the rest will come easy to you. Most of it.

So exactly how does god's "woo magic" work?  Why is it that simply because the phenomena is from god that it is always unmeasurable, untestable, and without boundaries of any sort?
Why was it when jesus turned water into wine that there were no flashes of light, smoke or vapors, or any waves of heat or sound described in the miracles? The effect just happens to have nothing one could record or trail back to a source.

Yep, when you step aside from reason, it's easy to imagine all sorts of silly things.

[Nam]

I always heard that it was a mistranslation, that he was actually walking beside the water instead of on it.

-Nam

[stuffin]

GB, if God created the world He controls the physical laws and can break them.

Get over the first hurdle of believing God is real and the rest will come easy to you. Most of it.

1, pos·tu·late? ?[v. pos-chuh-leyt; n. pos-chuh-lit, -leyt] Show IPA verb, pos·tu·lat·ed, pos·tu·lat·ing, noun
verb (used with object)

1. to ask, demand, or claim.

2. to claim or assume the existence or truth of, especially as a basis for reasoning or arguing.

3. to assume without proof, or as self-evident; take for granted.


the·o·ry? ?[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA noun, plural the·o·ries.
1.a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.



Main Entry:   scientific law
Part of Speech:  n

Definition:  a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon; also called natural law

Laws are something that always happen, you can't change it, you know, 2+2 = 4. That is a law but you say god can break his own law(s)?

So god is like a cop, he/she/it doesn't have to obey the law(s)

OR; do as I say and not as I do....

God is a hypocrite.

[12 Monkeys]

Hey, I don't live in some Christian mind-wash vaccuum.

I know belief in God is a hurdle. It's just that I've made the jump. Some of you haven't tried jumping, some have tried and given up in disgust, etc etc.

( I hear some of you made it over but then jumped back again )

What keeps you there,,,,,,the starving are still starving,meek,still meek,poor,still poor,perception of greed and evil still are present,homosexuality still exists and for some strange reason God has done nothing to put an end to Satan's "reign",although his crazy followers tell us "anyday now".

[screwtape]

Hey, I don't live in some Christian mind-wash vaccuum.

Actually, you kind of do.  The bigger problem is, you don't realize it.  Most xians would say the same thing, and also not realize they were wrong.

[changeling]

Liquid, much like a solid, still gives you a surface to push against. Otherwise oars would not move a boat.
So if Jesus could stand on top of water  I see no reason that he could not also move forward on it.

Of course he would have to be hollow or lighter than the specific gravity of water in order to stand on it.

[12 Monkeys]

Liquid, much like a solid, still gives you a surface to push against. Otherwise oars would not move a boat.
So if Jesus could stand on top of water  I see no reason that he could not also move forward on it.

Of course he would have to be hollow or lighter than the specific gravity of water in order to stand on it.

 A human can float on water if his lungs are full and he lies there,he can also swim on the surface. Lets face it the miracle is just not that impressive to someone with half a brain

[Eaten by Bears]

49 but they, when they saw him walking on the sea, supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out;
50 for they all saw him, and were troubled.
50a And one came before him and spoke, saying "Oh Jesus, how is this possible"
50b To which he replied, "Sea turtles, mate."

[HAL]

I know how Jeebus did it.

Every time he stepped on the water he froze a column of water from the bottom of his sandal to the bottom of the lake. This is what he stood on and it also froze the bottom of the sandal to the top of the column of ice so he didn't slip. Then when it was time to lift the foot he melted the water right underneath the sandal. If you could have looked under the water you would have seen a lot of ice columns falling away to the bottom of the lake.

[Garja]

Maybe he just ran really really fast.

[12 Monkeys]

other examples

[screwtape]

maybe jesus was really inflatable?
http://www.tradekorea.com/product-detail/P00242879/Advertising_Inflatable_Jesus_Inflatable.html

[Samothec]

The logical answer is that he was walking on a just barely submerged sand bar.

As for the friction aspect: water is not totally frictionless otherwise there would be no wearing away of stones in contact with water. Plus, if one is able to magically make the water support one's weight the nature of the water is (temporarily) altered sufficiently to make movement possible. You do have a point though: whether frozen (as per HAL) or magically altered in another way, Jesus movements would not have been a steady natural walking - they would have been far more like walking on ice.

[HAL]

I bet, if Jeebus really exists, he's pretty annoyed right now that we're even trying to figure out his magic tricks.

THIS AIN'T 2000 YEARS AGO JEEBUS!