Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 52410 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1189 on: March 06, 2013, 04:47:14 AM »
.....I can understand how outsiders might struggle with it, and try to attribute alternative explanations, but you'd be wasting your time trying to change my mind about it, the best you can do is dissuade others from lending credibility to my account.  There are hucksters and phonies that you should be cautious of but to be fair to yourself you need to admit the possibility that I'm not one of them.

Ah, the humility of the Christian!  Its not about you Wayne - at least not for me.  You live thousands of miles away and you will never have an effect on my life - if you wish to continue with your beliefs, you go for it.  You have all the evidence you need for your beliefs, so.....<shrugs>

The question is whether you want ME to change my mind.....and I honestly don't believe that you want me to.  Nor do I believe you honestly want the others here to change their minds.

Why do I believe this?  Because we've all asked you a whole lot of specific questions that you don't seem to want to answer.  Questions that we need answered before we could consider swopping you from the category of "deluded phony" to "guy who has had genuine supernatural experiences".

But you don't seem to want to answer THOSE questions, for some reason.  You prefer to assert that we are wilfully not accepting your tales as proof.  If that helps you sleep at night, or feel good or secure in your beliefs, then I can understand why you'd do that.

But if you genuinely and honestly wanted us to accept your position, then you'd be giving us what we tell you we need - not what YOU have decided is all you will give.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Tonus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Darwins +28/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
    • Stuff I draw
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1190 on: March 06, 2013, 05:29:04 AM »
God authored the metaphor not me.
I'm tempted to say something snarky about god's lack of political or economic acumen.
Quote from: WayneHarropson
What you are saying is true but America's Idi Amin is a customization.  Idi Amin did all he could do in his setting, and Obama is doing all he can do in America's setting.  You don't have to have a line by line parity for the metaphor to work.  What Idi did for Uganda Barry is doing for America.
There is so little to compare that one is tempted to look beyond the political and wonder if there is another basis on which the comparison is being made.

What Amin did is more comparable to what Mugabe did in Zimbabwe than what the US government has done with our economy.  The only possible basis for comparison would be the government "takeover" of General Motors.  And as bad an idea as I think that was, it was a case of using tax dollars to keep a dying company afloat.  Amin forcefully wrested healthy, viable companies from their rightful owners and handed them to men who did not know what they were doing.  GM is big, but the US economy is so massive by comparison that the overall effect of its going bankrupt would have been small.

It's possible to connect many of the bank bailouts to what Amin did, but most of that either happened or was started during the Bush administration.  The use of regulation to allow banks and businesses to grow to massive sizes, while ignoring regulation that allowed them to leverage that size far beyond what was safe, is not something that can be laid at the feet of one man.  The scramble to "save" those businesses with taxpayer money did not begin with the current President.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1191 on: March 06, 2013, 07:53:39 AM »

There is so little to compare that one is tempted to look beyond the political and wonder if there is another basis on which the comparison is being made.
<snippage>
And here is what the gist is...


You all have a far thicker skin for BS than I have. Son hasnt answered a single  question yet, he's clearly not going to. Lets not fake ourselves out and think hes about to start answering questions.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12338
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1192 on: March 06, 2013, 08:52:59 AM »
You probably thought you shut me up didn't you?

No.  It was mainly for my own gratification and so any innocent bystanders who may stumble across your posts might have some factual counter balance.  I had no expectation that you would actually learn anything.

You put forth some counter arguments that feed your need for your confirmation bias,

Stop saying "confirmation bias".  You apparently do not understand what it means and keep using it improperly.  I think what you mean to say is that I am biased.  Leave it at that.

and have made up your mind that your counter arguments are the only ones to be considered.

I did not present counter arguments.  I presented facts.  Reality contradicts your claims and opinions. 

As a matter of fact screwtape, you have a history of maintaining a position by specifically avoiding to even read  counter arguments.  I spent a considerable amount of time going over and over points with you with the faulty notion that you were even reading what I have submitted.  It was ridiculous  then and I don't expect it to be any better now.

Red herring.  Whether I read your prior stories or not, you made a claim here that is factually incorrect. You said Obama destroyed the economy.  You made no effort to provide any evidence for your claim.  I provided evidence - lots of it - your claim was false.  None of that is impacted whether I read your story about a car with electrical problems or not.

When we talk about Barack Obama, are we talking about someone that has a history of promoting mortgages for those who can't pay or someone that promoted sound banking practises.

You must support that claim.  Right now, all it is is a claim.  In fact, the Snopes article I linked contradicts it. But if you have actaul evidence, you'd better cough it up.

My argument does not require Obama to have single handedly crashed the American economy,

Yes, it does.  You said:
He then proceeded to destroy that economy. Like Obama

Amin commandeered a complicated machine with absolutely no clue how the machine worked, and then just drove it off a Cliff.  Like Obama.

That is pretty absolute.  If you want to back pedal now and say "alright, I overstated my point.  It was not ALL Obama's fault, but I do not like his policies", that's fine.  Then say that.  But you do not get to say that was your point all along.  That would be a lie, Wayne.   

only that he has always promoted the very policies that did such,

No, that was not your point.  See above.

Here's an example that you don't even have to read, it's a video. http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/09/03/did-obama-court-case-help-bankrupt-black-homeowners-daily-caller-reveals-presidents-legal-backfire/

video is disabled for me.  I read the article above it.

1. It's foxnews.  they are a propaganda network, not actual news.

2. It uses Daily Caller as a source.  Daily Caller is a propaganda site by Tucker Carlson.  It is not credible and he's a hack.  They are the ones who pushed the story about Senator Menendez visiting prostitutes.  It turned out the "prostitute" was paid to say those things in front of a camera.

3. The article itself gave no evidence that it's claim was true. It was just a wild, unsubstantiated claim.

4. The Snopes article I linked sufficiently debunks this "story".  It is a fabrication.

5. The big problem repubs have right now is they cannot tell the difference between propaganda and facts. This is why they were stunned election night.  Every pollster in the country knew Money Booboo was going to lose.  The only people surprised were the ones who were GOP loyalists.  They thought they could make their own reality.  They couldn't.  You need to stop using these propaganda sites for your news. I tell you that for your own good.


Time for you to answer the questions I asked you in my last post. 

1. Specifically, what did Obama do to destroy the economy?  Keep in mind, I ask the day after the Dow Jones hit a record high.  So before you answer the question you might need to establish that the economy is actually destroyed.
2. Specifically, how did Obama "commandeer a complicated machine with absolutely no clue how the machine worked, and then just drove it off a Cliff"?

Until you answer those questions sufficiently, your posts will not be approved.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12338
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1193 on: March 06, 2013, 09:51:02 AM »
for you, Wayne, a little dose of reality and good sense.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/05/conservative-media_n_2812517.html?1362520602

This is not for you to respond to, but to read and hopefully take to heart.  It is not meant to change your political view, but to hopefully get you to realize you need better information.  You are being lied to, Sunny Jim.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4613
  • Darwins +105/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1194 on: March 06, 2013, 10:43:47 AM »
 Wayne

 What happens to all the messages you interpret that don't pan out? Where do the false messages end up? What lessons do you learn,when a message from the messiah leads to a dead end? Do you tell people,bring it up? or do you ignore it and wait for the next sign?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline WayneHarropson

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Darwins +2/-39
  • Gender: Male
  • BANNED
    • Wayne Harropson Contractor
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1195 on: March 06, 2013, 11:24:33 AM »

Time for you to answer the questions I asked you in my last post. 

1. Specifically, what did Obama do to destroy the economy?  Keep in mind, I ask the day after the Dow Jones hit a record high.  So before you answer the question you might need to establish that the economy is actually destroyed.
2. Specifically, how did Obama "commandeer a complicated machine with absolutely no clue how the machine worked, and then just drove it off a Cliff"?

Until you answer those questions sufficiently, your posts will not be approved.

 
Obama has everything to gain from the distruction of Capitalism
He's only one man, but give him time, he's got lots of friends.

Screwtape.  please allow me to defer to answer any more questions from you until you can get a computer that will allow you to view the content of my arguments.

You and I have a broken connection.  Let me know when you have actually watched the video that makes my case and then comment on that for me.  If I understand confirmation bias it is what you do when you dismiss everything on Fox news as a lie.  That is a debilitating bias, and I really don't think anybody can help you with that.

Quote from: WayneHarropson on Yesterday at 04:09:44 PM
When we talk about Barack Obama, are we talking about someone that has a history of promoting mortgages for those who can't pay or someone that promoted sound banking practises.
You must support that claim.  Right now, all it is is a claim.  In fact, the Snopes article I linked contradicts it. But if you have actual evidence, you'd better cough it up.

Here's an example that you don't even have to read, it's a video. http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/09/03/did-obama-court-case-help-bankrupt-black-homeowners-daily-caller-reveals-presidents-legal-backfire/
Cough.

Edited to re post the video that answers your question.  Destroying America isn't a one man job and there's lots to do.


Rermoved a comment of mine not intended for general consumption
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 03:49:24 PM by ParkingPlaces »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
  • Darwins +533/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1196 on: March 06, 2013, 02:16:14 PM »
It would be a mistake not to have certitude with the evidence I have.

You have no evidence.

Quote
Certitude that there is no God is a bigger fallacy than ones certitude that there is one,

Everything we know points to the fact that there are no invisible beings taking an interest in what we are doing.  Everything we know points to the fact that when you’re dead, that is it – nothing, just like before you were born.
Everything we know points to the fact that energy requires a source and that if God is to do anything he needs an energy source. Where is it?
 
Quote
So let's hear it, "It is wrong to speak with certitude that Wayne's God is a fantasy".  "It is wrong to speak with certitude that confirmation bias controls Wayne's accounts of intervention, thus renders them invalid."

You will not hear that from me. All gods are pointless. All gods are the invention of mankind. All gods represent our ignorance. To worship a god is to worship ignorance.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
What you are trying and failing to do is box me in with others whose faith you have managed to dislodge that base their "beliefs" on un-demonstrated faith.  You cannot do that with me though you're doing your best.

There are none as blind as those who will not see.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
But what has happened is you discredit your arguments and diminish the credibility of your reason to continue hounding me about having unsubstantiated faith, when you know all too well that I would be unreasonable to dismiss the continual interventions.  They may fail your standards of courtroom evidence …

Yes, precisely that. You can dispute what we know but you can’t pull theories out of your arse along the lines of “God did it.”and expect to be taken seriously. Why not look upon gods as a hobby? Something you can do quietly without bothering others?


If you put together all the interventions and remove the Christianity, you would still have a bunch of supernatural stuff to rationalise.

No.

Quote
You would have to attribute it to something unnatural.

No. We would attribute it to something we, as yet did not understand and then research the causes. You would say, “Jesus did it. End.” 

Quote
Again, don't make the mistake of equating my certainty of God with a certainty of my understanding of God.

So basically, you’re worshiping something you don’t understand… interesting.

Quote
I just can't wait to here one of "you say, well, now, I guess God could be real if what Wayne is saying is true'. But I'm not sure if you are honest enough about it to concede that point. You have this certitude hang up. I'm waiting.
 

I just can't wait to hear you say, well, now, I guess God couldn't be real if what WWGHA is saying is true' But I'm not sure if you are honest enough about it to concede that point. You have this certitude hang up. I'm waiting.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
  • Darwins +533/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1197 on: March 06, 2013, 02:52:21 PM »
Wayne,

Quote
A startling new story by The Daily Caller reveals how a mortgage discrimination lawsuit by then-attorney Barack Obama left many African Americans on the hook for home loans they couldn’t pay back.

You will note here that Obama was acting as a lawyer not president and that as a lawyer, his job is to win his client’s case.

 Tucker Carlson, [said] that the lawsuit was a class action suit of 186 clients, which accused Citibank of redlining — the process of excluding people from mortgages because they live in bad neighborhoods.

Quote
Carlson said that Obama was a lead plaintiff on some of these cases,

He was not the plaintiff or even lead plaintiff, he was a lawyer.

Quote
The lawsuit was pushed forward regardless, on the grounds that it was racist not to give them mortgages.

That was a contention – the court had to decide if this were so. If the court decides something, is it the lawyer’s fault?

Quote
According to Carlson, … some of the plaintiffs didn’t know Obama was involved in the suit

You have absolutely no idea how “class actions” work, do you? You really can’t grasp this.

Quote
and were bewildered that they received loans when it was obvious that they couldn’t repay it.

This happens – their own lawyer would have told them what was happening but they, like you, simply were not bright enough to understand.

Quote
Munro did not receive comment from the White House on this issue

If you ask stupid questions, do you deserve an answer? 

Quote
and found no evidence that Obama went back and spoke to the people he was representing.

He also found no evidence that Obama dressed up like Donald Duck and sang the Russian National anthem.

This is why Fox News is complete garbage. They know that their audience is as thick as pig-s**t and they can say anything and they will be believed by the uneducated masses.

Wayne – are you allowed to vote?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6461
  • Darwins +768/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1198 on: March 06, 2013, 08:15:13 PM »
the following is a direct response to a link posted by Wayne. The quoted material is the entire story (sans video) that he linked to:

Quote
Did Obama Court Case Help Bankrupt to Black Homeowners? ‘Daily Caller’ Reveals President’s Legal Backfire

A startling new story by The Daily Caller reveals how a mortgage discrimination lawsuit by then-attorney Barack Obama left many African Americans on the hook for home loans they couldn’t pay back. Tucker Carlson, founder of The Daily Caller, joined Fox and Friends this morning from North Carolina where the Democratic National Convention is set to take place this week.
First of all, this is not a new story. Google it. It was making the rounds in 2008. Same exact story. http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/10/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/ Even has a Fox News video embedded. It’s just a game for Fox. I know you enjoy it, but it is still just a game. At best, they were scooping themselves.

Second, Obama was not the lead attorney in this suit. He was way down the totem pole. He billed a total of $467 dollars for his part in the case. Less than three hours. He was one of the attorneys on the team, but way down the list in terms of participation.

Are there issues as to whether or not the decision in this suite was the right one? Yep. Are there issues here worth discussing to help prevent similar erros in judgment in the future? Yep. Is this suite proof positive that Obama is out to destroy the nation? Well, that’s a bit far-fetched. I'm gonna say nope.

Imagine a whole segment of our population being denied certain rights of access to financial services only because of where they lived. Something called redlining. Is that supposed to be the American way? Is that the best method for dealing with economic inequality: keeping it that way? Or was it perhaps an effort on the part of well meaning people to fix a problem? And, given who was involved, is it suprising that not all of them could successfully navigate the wild and whacky world of high finance from which they had been shut out for their entire lives?

Quote
He told Steve Doocy that the lawsuit was a class action suit of 186 clients, which accused Citibank of redlining — the process of excluding people from mortgages because they live in bad neighborhoods.
Carlson said that Obama was a lead plaintiff on some of these cases, though just a few years later many of the clients weren’t able to pay up. The lawsuit was pushed forward regardless, on the grounds that it was racist not to give them mortgages. He reported that nearly half of the clients from this 1995 lawsuit against Citibank have gone bankrupt or received foreclosure notices and only 19 still own homes.
As Graybeard has noted, Obama was NOT the lead plaintiff. He was a lawyer on the team, two years out of law school. Who put less than three hours into the suite. This is very different that what Carlson reported.

Note too that little is said about the timeline for when people the various borrowers involved defaulted. Yes, there is some info in the video that indicates there were defaults early in the life of the loan, within the first few years. But what percentage of the defaults came after the economy tanked in 2007-2008, when tons of people started loosing their homes because of the bad economy. You can be sure that if all the loans defaulted during a good economy, he would have reported it. By not mentioning the timeline for those failures, he is lying by omission. A reporter owes it to readers to be honest about such things.

Quote
According to Carlson, who was speaking on behalf of Neil Munro, the reporter who spent time investigating this, some of the plaintiffs didn’t know Obama was involved in the suit and were bewildered that they received loans when it was obvious that they couldn’t repay it.
Munro did not receive comment from the White House on this issue and found no evidence that Obama went back and spoke to the people he was representing.

The use of the world “bewildered” is a bit perplexing. No, make that bewildering. Obama was an unknown entity who spent less than three hours on the case. The lead attorneys were much more visible. I’m fine with folks saying “I had no idea that Obama was on the team. But so what”. Anything else is disengenuous.

If I were the White House, I wouldn’t bother commenting either. There is nothing here.

Lastly, do keep in mind that loans of this sort made up only 6% of all housing loans when the economy went sour. (The lawsuit was in response to CitiBanks' loan policies. They were also only 6% of the failed mortgages.) The law called upon by the lawyers in the case was the Community Reinvestment act of 1977. Which did not apply to all lending institutions:
http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html
Which sort of means that if they were the only thing that went belly up in the housing bubble, it wouldn’t be deserving of the name. The ruling in this case involved only depository banks, and the vast majority of the loans that went sour during the burst were via large loan companies like Countrywide, which were not subject to those laws. So again, this lawsuit is virtually irrelevant.

Hindsight is 20/20. If someone wants to point out the social harm this lawsuit and others like it caused, fine. Even I can see that. But to think that the story is proof that Obama is out to destroy America is ludicrous.

And that’s why we think your source material sucks. And that is why we need more information before there is any chance that we will consider your side of the story.

Wayne, when you are making heavy duty charges, like "Obama is out to destroy America" and "Obama is just another Idi Amin", this is how you say it. With corroborative information. With links. With sources.

Opinions are great, but base them on something. You're allowed to have them, but it is so nice if there is something behind them besides dreams of sugarplums shoved up someones rear end.

Note of interest: Fox loves itself so much it didn’t even link to Carlsons' web site. What sort of idiotic news team would be too selfish to provide a frickin’ link? Oops, I answered my own question.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4933
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1199 on: March 06, 2013, 08:54:40 PM »
Wayne, do you even know what that book is about?  I'm guessing not; you're apparently reacting to the title.  It is not about the world after America is gone, it is about how the world is changing due to America's promotion of liberal democratic values, which create competitors for America's economic, industrial, and cultural power, and thus a relative decline compared to these other nations.  It also says that America will still be the most powerful nation, especially in political and military terms.

In short, that picture does not work as evidence to support your point.  It actually weakens it, because it has nothing to do with "destroying America" in the first place.  Just like your claim about the class-action lawsuit that Obama worked on, examining the particulars goes a long way towards crippling the point you're trying to make.

Offline DumpsterFire

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
  • Darwins +61/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Flaming Duck of Death!
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1200 on: March 07, 2013, 12:31:43 AM »
I'll say two things in response to you. 

1. The Idi Amin thing was not my idea.

Since this "vision" originated in your own brain, it is indeed your idea. But I understand that you believe your visions are divinely inspired and put into your head by god. Whatever floats your boat. Even if one concedes that you do not personally control the content of your visions, you certainly do control how you interpret them. Just to be certain I didn't miss any pertinent points, I went back and reread your Obama=Amin story. At no point in it do you offer any rationale or justification for your assumption that the Amin character in the vision is representative of Obama. Well, you do say that both men were charismatic politicians running on a populist platform, but these generalities describe almost every successful politician ever, so it is a useless observation.

Quote
2. Your Racial inuendo is preposterous. 

Look here for proof, and I mean proof.  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg544462.html#msg544462

Notice how Obama is the deer in the headlights in this video.

I mistakenly thought the link you provided was "proof" that Obama was as bad as Amin, but was very disappointed to find it is just your attempt to show that you are not a racist. Just because you apparently respect at least one black person (Alan Keyes, for those who don't know) does not mean that your interpretation of the Idi Amin vision is not racially motivated. If you can not or will not provide legitimate, specific evidence[1] that Obama should be viewed in the same light as Amin, it seems likely that your primary reason for jumping to such a conclusion is that they are both black men who came to power.
 1. bearing in mind that "charisma" is too general, and your assertions that each man ruined his respective country's economy have been proven factually incorrect
Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Think for yourself.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1201 on: March 07, 2013, 01:31:16 AM »
TO WAYNE: PLEASE RESPOND

.
Wayne, as usual, you are quite mistaken. Two or more fallacious arguments (put together) don't make a sound argument.
Then it isn't an argument it is a report of intervention.  It is a testimony of intervention.   

No actually, it's not a 'testimony of intervention'. You are quite mistaken (again) b/c you haven't demonstrated that your experiences were in fact "interventions". You just keep CLAIMING it. But that's not proof. What you are reporting are specific rare occurrences, which you say took place, and then you are SPINNING (i.e. - interpreting happenings in your favor) so as to make those things SEEM as if they are "miracles". So you haven't demonstrated a miracle at all (which is exactly why I asked you to open your frickin bible!). All you've done is demonstrate credulity, gullibility, and confirmation bias (while simultaneously failing to show how you differentiate "miracles" from rare occurrences - which is what you should be doing). I know you want so badly to make it seem like you're not reaching...but you are. You are doing exactly what every other religion on the planet does - lowering the standard of evidence so as to allow your presuppositions into the door. How dishonest and hypocritical!!

WOW...

What is in question here Wayne is your interpretation of what you think happened (i.e. - how you are so sure it was Yahweh who caused these things - Muslims have similar premonition stories for their Allah!). If I took every one of your claims at face-value those claims would still require interpretation. Again, coincidences and rare occurrences are not extraordinary evidence. You need to first establish how you differentiate between a "miracle" and a rare occurrence. If you have no verifiable method for distinguishing between the two, then all you really have is credulity.

I hope you will forgive me for not going point by point, I think we have covered all the ground pretty well in past discussions.  I'm, simply reporting divine intervention, and lots of it.  That's my case.

Thanks for your comments.

And we are asking you how you think you know these things are "divine interventions"?? Please answer that question Wayne. How do you know these are 'divine interventions'?? Because from what we see so far, you don't know. You are just taking it "on faith" (and that is called credulity).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 02:03:36 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1202 on: March 07, 2013, 04:02:41 AM »
Quote
According to Carlson, … some of the plaintiffs didn’t know Obama was involved in the suit and were bewildered that they received loans when it was obvious that they couldn’t repay it.

Okay - am I the only person lost with this quote?  Is the claim that Citibank was forced to go out and rendomly pay money into the accounts of people who had not asked for it?  VERY doubtful.  So they were being told to give loans to people who had applied for them.

To say those people are then "bewildered that they received loans" is a most peculiar statement.  They applied for them - is the contention that they were applying in the sure knowledge they could not repay?  That they were in some way upset that the loan was granted?  That they were too timid to say to the bank when the loan was granted that "actually, I don't want this"?

The sentence makes NO sense whatsoever.  Yet Wayne - presumably - supports it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline su27

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Militiant" atheist
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1203 on: March 07, 2013, 04:53:07 AM »
I don't have the answers about the starving, I don't think Mother Theresa did either.

She actually had one: "Starving and pain is good, it makes you closer to Jesus. And the millions I got for food are not your concern."

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Darwins +110/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1204 on: March 07, 2013, 05:31:38 AM »
I don't have the answers about the starving, I don't think Mother Theresa did either.

She actually had one: "Starving and pain is good, it makes you closer to Jesus. And the millions I got for food are not your concern."

Indeed! from what I heard, the money people gave to her for the starving and dying went to build monasteries fro her order and the sick and dying staying  in the rotten conditions. Rather than a saint, she was a fraud!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12338
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1205 on: March 07, 2013, 09:44:35 AM »
I don't have the answers about the starving, I don't think Mother Theresa did either.

She actually had one: "Starving and pain is good, it makes you closer to Jesus. And the millions I got for food are not your concern."

she was a sadist and tried to use other people's suffering to find faith she had lost.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19520.msg432705.html#msg432705

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline WayneHarropson

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Darwins +2/-39
  • Gender: Male
  • BANNED
    • Wayne Harropson Contractor
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1206 on: March 07, 2013, 11:09:13 AM »
median

Wayne replied, but it did not actually answer anything, so it was not approved.  I thought it was fair, though, that you know he did respond, even if it was sub-par and not satisfying.

Screwtape


« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 01:08:59 PM by screwtape »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6681
  • Darwins +888/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1207 on: March 07, 2013, 11:48:22 AM »
Wayne still has not shown that he knows the difference between a supernatural event and one that is merely unlikely or strange, but not in any way evidence of a supernatural force.

Since he apparently does not know the difference, he can call any strange, unlikely event supernatural. He also has no evidence that his god (or any other god) actually exists, and does not really understand what evidence is. Wayne thinks that his god exists, so he  uses his strange events as evidence of his god, and his god only.

The silly linking of Obama with Idi Amin is totally unfounded. Even if you have no use for the US president, he is so far from an evil psychotic mass murderer, kleptocrat and international war criminal that the comparison is just ludicrous.

There are no facts to support this, since it is all in Wayne's head. It is hard to see how it comes from anywhere but an ignorant, possibly racist place where a democratically elected, rather moderate American politician is somehow equivalent to one of the worse African dictators of the 20th century. Because they are both of African descent and did things that Wayne does not like, I suppose.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline WayneHarropson

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Darwins +2/-39
  • Gender: Male
  • BANNED
    • Wayne Harropson Contractor
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1208 on: March 07, 2013, 12:02:18 PM »
I'll say two things in response to you. 

1. The Idi Amin thing was not my idea.

Since this "vision" originated in your own brain, it is indeed your idea. But I understand that you believe your visions are divinely inspired and put into your head by god. Whatever floats your boat. Even if one concedes that you do not personally control the content of your visions, you certainly do control how you interpret them. Just to be certain I didn't miss any pertinent points, I went back and reread your Obama=Amin story. At not point in it do you offer any rationale or justification for your assumption that the Amin character in the vision is representative of Obama. Well, you do say that both men were charismatic politicians running on a populist platform, but these generalities describe almost every successful politician ever, so it is a useless observation.

Quote
2. Your Racial inuendo is preposterous. 

Look here for proof, and I mean proof.  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg544462.html#msg544462

Notice how Obama is the deer in the headlights in this video.

I mistakenly thought the link you provided was "proof" that Obama was as bad as Amin, but was very disappointed to find it is just your attempt to show that you are not a racist. Just because you apparently respect at least one black person (Alan Keyes, for those who don't know) does not mean that your interpretation of the Idi Amin vision is not racially motivated. If you can not or will not provide legitimate, specific evidence[1] that Obama should be viewed in the same light as Amin, it seems likely that your primary reason for jumping to such a conclusion is that they are both black men who came to power.
 1. bearing in mind that "charisma" is too general, and your assertions that each man ruined his respective country's economy have been proven factually incorrect

I'm never really completely satisfied that I have described accounts of visions and other incidents.  I either run on so long that I even bore myself, or I leave out important details that clarify. 

Two crucial elements in the Idi Amin/Obama connection are:
1. Obama was installed as editor of the Harvard Law Review exactly seven days from the notation in my dayplanner in 1990.

2. The direction I got to read and reread the scripture in John was to seal the reality that my finding the old entry was the Holy Spirit confirming that I would be told, and then, I would be reminded that I was told.

The account of the October 1 1987 (Cold Eggs) earthquake is completely deficient and I have been working on it's revision, but as it is with many of my stories there are so many connections  (three quakes in a row) that I'm never quite satisfied that I've depicted them in a way I want.  It's like there are three or four stories that are interrelated, and every time I try it runs on into multiple pages that I don't think works well when making a specific point in this forum.

You might take a look here to see how that number SEVEN  seems to work out.  I am the first post in this thread on PAGE SEVEN.   

Your observation that because they were two black men a racial motive could be in play is absolutely reasonable.  The wonder of all this is how God gave me just what I needed to dissemble that. 

I'm telling you emphatically that the Holy Spirit of God influenced me on the day of my having met Keyes to fantasize a marriage between our children for this specific purpose.  It isn't skin color, it is all about truth and philosophy.  I am absolutely absolved of originating racial animus.  That's why I can say in my case it is preposterous that I'm acting or interpreting on a racial impulse.  And the wonder of that is that it shatters even what reasonable people like yourself, understandably might presume.

You can be forgiven for questioning my racial motivations but what for you is a reasonable presumption, just happens to be unfounded. I'll admit that that obvious connection mystified me, but again, since the vision was outside of me that element of it is not my responsibility.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 01:06:49 PM by screwtape »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Darwins +110/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1209 on: March 07, 2013, 12:38:15 PM »
Ah, but the thing is that Wayne, as far as he is concerned, really seems to believe his own stories, how ever much they seem to be easily explained by coincidence and so on. Search for his name and forum and he's posted all over the place though the stories don't seem to do any better than they do here.

People here can see that he chooses an event to match a previous one only after the event. His earlier story gives no specific clue to what the second one would be - until Wayne finds an event that has some matching words or ideas. I think if we could see all the events in his life he doesn't tell use about we could find a whole selection of events to match the first part of all his stories that do not reveal anything special.

I suppose we won't stop him thinking what he likes about this but I can't see him convincing anyone else of the same - especially Michael Shirmer on whose blog he offers to help Michael even to taking a lie detector test about his amazing stories.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6681
  • Darwins +888/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1210 on: March 07, 2013, 03:50:40 PM »
I can't believe we are still trying to use facts and logic to reason with Wayne, even though he has assured us many times that his "faith" is like a solid block of concrete. Hard, impenetrable, inflexible. Kinda rough and grainy, too. 

Wayne knows what he knows and does not welcome any challenges to his perceptions of reality at all. He wants to stay inside his happy little delusional bubble where his god talks to him (and only him) through right-wing websites, Batman movies, gas tanks, rocks and earthquakes, and I suggest we leave him to it. I am afraid he is a lost cause.

Wayne, I wish we hardly knew ye, but I'm afraid we know ye way too well. It was fun while it lasted, though.....:P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3012
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1211 on: March 07, 2013, 03:57:58 PM »
I'm telling you emphatically that the Holy Spirit of God influenced me on the day of my having met Keyes to fantasize a marriage between our children for this specific purpose.
And I, Wayne am strongly of the opinion that "the Holy Spirit of God" is a complete and utter fiction that exists only in your own mind.

The very fact that the predictions of this pseudo-"spirit" are all interpretations after the fact, and are pathetically vague, and are meaningless to us, is damning evidence that you are in a folie à un (as opposed to the slightly more popular "folie à deux").

If you disagree, ask your favourite holy spook to give the WWGHA crowd a prediction as to event, place and date.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6681
  • Darwins +888/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1212 on: March 07, 2013, 04:30:10 PM »
^^^He won't because he can't. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. He has kids, after all.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4933
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1213 on: March 07, 2013, 06:34:19 PM »
It seems to me that the reason Wayne is so insistent on trying to push his own interpretation of these 'interventions' is because he believes that the more he talks to people about them on his terms, the more likely they are to agree with him.  This is also known as "if you repeat your story often enough, keeping it consistent, people will start to believe you."

The problem, of course, is that consistency isn't enough to establish that a person knows what they're talking about.  But that only comes up if the other side in the conversation is knowledgeable enough about the subject to catch that.  To someone who doesn't know better, a person who stays consistent in their story may well seem as if they're knowledgeable about the subject.  That's Wayne's approach - he firmly believes that these events are manifestations of supernatural events, and so it's easy for him to convince people who are not knowledgeable about how statistical coincidence works that he knows what he's talking about.

And the thing of it is, he believes that what he's saying is true.  From his perspective, he's not lying, or delusional, or anything else along those lines.  He really believes that he's just reporting on supernatural events, and if someone tries to show that there's a more likely alternate explanation, he does the equivalent of smiling and nodding before he continues expounding on his beliefs.  This is where the strength of his arguments comes from - he's totally convinced of the truth of what he's saying - but it's also a fatal weakness, because he can't cope with people who aren't willing to accept "I really honestly believe that this is true" as evidence.  Like virtually everyone here.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 06:36:17 PM by jaimehlers »

Offline Tonus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Darwins +28/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
    • Stuff I draw
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1214 on: March 07, 2013, 07:22:43 PM »
It may be a combination of "spread the word" (get the message out there in as many places as possible) and playing the martyr.  People like to root for the underdog, and making yourself the stoic subject of fierce ridicule will likely gain support from people who think it's unfair to treat an insane person as if he's just darned crazy.

Offline DumpsterFire

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
  • Darwins +61/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Flaming Duck of Death!
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1215 on: March 08, 2013, 03:23:21 AM »
Two crucial elements in the Idi Amin/Obama connection are:
1. Obama was installed as editor of the Harvard Law Review exactly seven days from the notation in my dayplanner in 1990.

2. The direction I got to read and reread the scripture in John was to seal the reality that my finding the old entry was the Holy Spirit confirming that I would be told, and then, I would be reminded that I was told.

I was aware of these two elements of your story, but they still do not explain how the Idi Amin of your vision must represent Obama. Please describe in specific detail exactly why you came to that conclusion.
Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Think for yourself.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4933
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1216 on: March 08, 2013, 09:18:37 AM »
Two crucial elements in the Idi Amin/Obama connection are:
1. Obama was installed as editor of the Harvard Law Review exactly seven days from the notation in my dayplanner in 1990.
A week (seven days) is not a particularly meaningful unit of time.  It's a quarter of the lunar month and thus convenient for time-keeping, but to claim that Obama becoming the editor of the Harvard Law Review a week later 'proves' that your Idi Amin dream represents Obama is threadbare, to say the least.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
2. The direction I got to read and reread the scripture in John was to seal the reality that my finding the old entry was the Holy Spirit confirming that I would be told, and then, I would be reminded that I was told.
Sometimes, impulses are just impulses.  This is the same basic idea behind your rock story - you had an impulse that you didn't understand, that you only 'recognized' as the "Holy Spirit" after you followed it.

Honestly, Wayne, it's things like this which demonstrate why your belief of absolute certainty (that those 'supernatural' events came from your god) is so dangerous.  Do you not realize that if there actually was an "evil god of this world", it would look on you and your ironclad certainty as a convenient way to mislead others?  Your certainty when it comes to your god being the source for those things means that you can lie by saying what you believe to be the truth.  I'm reminded of something I read which is highly applicable.  "The true sin of the churchman is that he doubts not.  He knows, he is certain, and thus he is snared in Satan's net."

Even for atheists, who don't believe in gods at all, it's still good advice.  You can never go so badly wrong as when you're certain that you're right.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4613
  • Darwins +105/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1217 on: March 08, 2013, 10:40:36 AM »
Wayne,should I read your stories backwards,will it make more sense to me then? Reading them from front to back,they make absolutely no sense at all,none.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)