Please validate your belief in your God

[ParkingPlaces]

I do have to admit, predicting events after the fact is much more accurate than being specific ahead of time. Focus on the Family made some predictions about Obama's first for years, saying that they knew what would happen if he got elected. The made 34 specific predictions. They were correct on one half. Of one of the predictions. Completely wrong on 33 1/2. So Wayne, I do have to commend you on taking the safe route and waiting to explain the meaning of each supposed prophecetic experience until after it actually happens.

You probably wear seat belts too. which is good. Safety first, I always say.

Here's a link to the predictions story. Note that they forgot the Idi Amin thing too.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/10/01/a-documented-case-of-false-prophecy-four-years-later-letter-from-2012-makes-focus-on-the-family-look-ridiculous/

Edit: Fixed the link, which my iPad had mucked up terribly. I certainly did nothing wrong 
Thanks for the heads up, jynnan

[jynnan tonnix]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/10/01/a-documented-case-of-false-prophecy-four-years-later-letter-from-2012-makes-focus-on-the-family-look-ridiculous/

Fixed the double link for you because it looked like an interesting story

[12 Monkeys]

At least Tbright and others had the sense to give up the fight.......not Wayne,he just keeps recycling the same stories thinking we will buy into it.

 (Tbright was a theist who came here to change our minds,but soon gave up)

[ParkingPlaces]

At least Tbright and others had the sense to give up the fight.......not Wayne,he just keeps recycling the same stories thinking we will buy into it.

 (Tbright was a theist who came here to change our minds,but soon gave up)

12, as long as he is making enough imaginary progress, he's satisfied...

[sun_king]

Maybe he has "seen" that one day we will give in and start believeing.

[Azdgari]

That's something he wouldn't be able to predict until well after the fact.   

[ParkingPlaces]

He may pull a Romney and baptize us all as mormons after we're dead. Then he'll claim he converted us all.

[Astreja]

He may pull a Romney and baptize us all as mormons after we're dead. Then he'll claim he converted us all.

One whiff of that nonsense, and I'm putting a lien on his immortal soul and renting him out as a practice dummy squire in Sven the Einharjar's Xtreme Swordfighting School in Asgard.   

[jaimehlers]

How about testamony?

If you were providing factual testimony, we would be able to check it for ourselves.  Therefore, you are providing religious testimony, which is fundamentally subjective and thus an opinion.

It sounds like you are conceding that the Holy Spirit instructed me, but because he didn't move a mountain you get to weasle your argument into a God of diminished capacity.

Not at all.  I stated that the only thing that you were attributing to your god was the impulse to pick up the rock.  That doesn't mean that I think your god actually gave you that impulse to pick up the rock.  To claim that I'm 'conceding' that is disingenuous sophistry.

That's a step in the right direction, now just think of this.  It just could be that God likes to use the most subtle of instructions just like a really accomplished equestrian is able to direct a well trained horse with nothing more than silk threads for reins.  The horse and the rider are so in tune with each other that it gets close to the point that it would appear to the outside observer that the rider is using telepathy to direct the horse.... though he's not really.  Of course, that's not the best example because in this case telepathy might describe what is happening.

Actually, it's a really bad example, and not because of 'telepathy'.  In your example, there is an actual person riding the horse, who uses actual reins to guide the horse.  The rider can be shown to exist, as can the reins.  A better example of what you mean would be a horse with no rider and no reins, that you claimed was being guided by a spirit, despite being unable to provide any evidence to back this up.

Men work really hard down here to accomplish the same kind of things, like with TV remotes.  Nobody has to get up and go crank the station knob like in he beginning, because being in God's image we like to create things, easier things.  If you could demonstrate to Issac Newton a TV with remote control do you think he would object and say "that's not very impressive, I want to see a physical hand appear in front of the TV and turn the channel and then I will believe in what has been demonstrated."

Same mistake as before.  You're conflating something that you can show to exist and demonstrate with something that you claim exists but can give no evidence for (let alone actually demonstrate).  In short, you aren't demonstrating anything.  Indeed, you acknowledged that here:

God demonstrates to me, I don't demonstrate anything.

So your example here is not workable.  You aren't demonstrating a remote-controlled TV to Isaac Newton, you're describing one to him (that God showed you in a vision), and when he presses you to actually show him it, you're claiming that God must be hiding it from him.

So you are getting close.

With all due respect, Wayne, this whole thing was based on your own misapprehension of what I wrote.  And your examples were poorly-chosen, to boot.

We're getting into that circular rebuttal.  Facts and evidence work n some things to your satisfaction but those who wish to know God must submit to his ways, which are pretty exclusive.  I think He likes it that way.

How convenient that when you can't provide facts and evidence for something, you think that your god wants people to accept it without evidence.  Never mind that this completely sabotages your argument with the very people you're trying to convince.

I am getting a bit cocky as PP said it.

I seem to recall an old saying about pride going before a fall.

If you had experienced all that I have, and then came to a site where a number of people accused you of having mental disorders, and few others here correct or object to that treatment, you might have a little fun with your persecutors from your confident position.

I seem to recall another old saying about turning the other cheek, and doing good to those who persecute you.

I was sent here, and have offered you the testamony of that in the form of a dream. There is no more reason for you to believe that testamony any more than you believe any of the other episodes I have described (truthfully) to you.

Oh, I don't doubt that you think you're telling us the exact truth.  The problem that you can't get around is the inability to provide factual evidence to support what you believe is the truth.

However, If along the way, it should ever dawn on you that it just could be that something in the universe is smarter than you, something in the universe that could bring into being your physical existence, and your ability to reason, then it just might dawn on you that that thing is capable of leaving out a couple of puzzle pieces in your understanding, and ask you to simply have faith in Its existence.

I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who are smarter than me.  And my parents brought into being my physical existence.  Neither of those require me to 'believe' in them without proof of their existence.  Why should your god do so?

It just might dawn on you, and until it has, forgive me if I have a little fun.  It's not meant to hurt you, just to make you think outside your (sand) box.

I don't have to poke fun at you to try to help you think outside the box.  Far be it from me to try to forbid you from doing something you'd do anyway, even if it does make you look silly.

I think we've eliminated all those possibilities, but if you need a little more time I'll be here to help.

Ok, now, see how much closer you are getting?  At least I could be misled by a supernatural power.  In that case you might just want to stick around and see how it all turns out for me when I discover I've been tricked by God.  Stay tuned to the atheist channel and laugh at  Wayne when God pulls the rug.  Only on the Atheist channel.

Sure, you could be so misled.  I can't disprove something that you can't give evidence for in the first place.  The starting point is for you to provide that evidence, though.  Until then, there's no point in worrying about it.

I read over your meteor anecdote.  I don't really see anything special or noteworthy about it, to be honest.  Even you admit that it's probably not anything special...so why do you think anyone else would think so?  Nothing complicated about it...just coincidental.  It's not like coincidences are particularly rare, after all.

[WayneHarropson]

I cannot dismiss what he has done nor can I attribute those works to another non biblical God.  You continue to repeat that my parents lied to me and that I'm gullible.  It is your recurring theme, you cannot stop asking it because you8 will never accept anything but that which satisfies you predetermined result.   

No actually, you are quite mistaken here Wayne (though I have read at least two of those "accounts").

Two isn't enough median.  My validation is based on the plethora of episodes.  If you are not willing to investigate more of my proof, but only continue to say Prove it, then we will be going nowhere.  You are wise not to take my word at face value for two accounts.  Read more and then let's talk, but until then I will never be able to make my case for you because you haven't seen but 10% of it.  That's fair isn't it.  I went around and around with screwtape who never read any of my accounts to my knowledge. it was total futility, so lets not waste any more of your time until you have the base of my case first.  Read the stories and you will know that God intervenes.

STOP! How do you know it was "the Holy Spirit"??

Prove it Wayne. Just saying so doesn't make it true.

Median, why don't you prove to me that you aren't addled with confirmation bias.  I say you are, prove to me you aren't.

All you've done (in childlike fashion) is claim Santa Claus (Yahweh) is guiding you and that no one can "prove you wrong".

I'm going to entertain your use of the word childlike to make an important point.  Yes, my faith is childlike. Absolutely it's childlike, for the very reason that Jesus said:

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

  Mk10:15

  You clearly don't care if you're beliefs are true. You just want to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe.

That could be true for others that haven't had the interventions I have, and you may get some headway with them, but having been visited with so many and redundant proofs, I do not in any way fit that category, nor can you corner me into that category.  You can either read more of my accounts of proof of God or move on to another target.

We are all waiting (willing, ready, and open to changing our minds) - are you?

I cannot deny the interventions of God, I can however examine my understanding of them, because it has been the case that at first I didn't fully understand, and was guided later to a greater understanding.  So, yes, I'm flexible.  Now it's your turn.  Read five more of my accounts and open your mind up to what you have been missing.

Thanks for your comments.

[WayneHarropson]

I seem to recall an old saying about pride going before a fall.

If you had experienced all that I have, and then came to a site where a number of people accused you of having mental disorders, and few others here correct or object to that treatment, you might have a little fun with your persecutors from your confident position.

I seem to recall another old saying about turning the other cheek, and doing good to those who persecute you.

 
OK give me a slap.  You guys have no sense of humor do you.  Jesus loves you by the way.

Let me explain something again that I explained before.  I'm going to be hard on you all corporately because the mass of you working together is a corporate evil.  When I'm tough on one of you I'm treating you not as an individual as much as I'm treating you as a representative of the corporate fallacy.  I have respect for the few of you that have corrected others on this forum for the slanderous and profane accusations, but little respect for those who act in concert with it.  I'm here to do battle, but that battle is for the truth of this most important issue.  You are all wrong to deny God's existence, and Satan is the author of your denial.  Don't take it personally, just man up and realise that until otherwise stated you are all the same corporate entity, and not an individuals for the sake of these discussions.

Now here's my other cheek, have at it.

However, If along the way, it should ever dawn on you that it just could be that something in the universe is smarter than you, something in the universe that could bring into being your physical existence, and your ability to reason, then it just might dawn on you that that thing is capable of leaving out a couple of puzzle pieces in your understanding, and ask you to simply have faith in Its existence.

I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who are smarter than me.  And my parents brought into being my physical existence.  Neither of those require me to 'believe' in them without proof of their existence.  Why should your god do so?

Because He's God.  You are making this too easy for me here.

 

I can't disprove something that you can't give evidence for in the first place.  The starting point is for you to provide that evidence, though.  Until then, there's no point in worrying about it.

I'm giving you all the evidence I have and a whole bunch of it.  Read through it all and then just try to imagine it all happening to you, just the way I describe it.  That is my proof, and i have a feeling it's going to be the best proof This forum will ever get.

I read over your meteor anecdote.  I don't really see anything special or noteworthy about it, to be honest.  Even you admit that it's probably not anything special...so why do you think anyone else would think so?  Nothing complicated about it...just coincidental.  It's not like coincidences are particularly rare, after all.

Well, I hope you enjoyed reading it anyway.  I told you it was in that grey area, but still a lot of fun for me to have said those two words to those two people, and have them report back to me with... those two words.  It is reminiscent of IMPACT, without being exactly like it.  You know, earthquakes, asteroids that blast out windows, it's kind of in the same genere.  I have a fascinating life.

[screwtape]

Median, why don't you prove to me that you aren't addled with confirmation bias.  I say you are, prove to me you aren't.

F minus. 

You made the claim.  The burden of proof is yours.  Making a claim and insisting someone else prove it isn't so is juvenile and unacceptable. 

maybe this will help you:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285

[nogodsforme]

Wayne, you have given nothing resembling proof that your god exists, let alone that your god is responsible for the various events you have recounted. You need to give us some real evidence (that is, something not just inside your head) that demonstrates that your supernatural being exists.

Do you have any documentation of a supernatural event happening to you? I don't mean a normal, if unusual event that could happen to anyone of any religion or of no religion. I have had unusual things happen to me, as I described above. But, based on the evidence,  nothing supernatural has ever happened to me (or to you or anyone else).

Furthermore,  if you really want us to believe you, and believe in your god, you have to demonstrate to us that it is your specific god (as opposed to Satan or Allah or Eshu or Thor) who is responsible for the unusual things that have happened to you.

Remember, how you feel about the events is not supernatural evidence. What you think inside your head about the events is not supernatural evidence. And if an event could happen to anyone of any religion, or of no religion (like picking up a rock that was later needed by someone), it hardly counts as supernatural proof of your particular god.

Now, if the rock levitated off the ground and put itself into your pocket, or flew out of your pocket into the other guy's hand, we might be talking supernatural! Kinda lame, for an all-powerful being, but still supernatural.

Like a commercial jingle: If it ain't magic, it ain't supernatural, and if it ain't supernatural, it ain't god.

[WayneHarropson]

And you might help us out a bit by explaining why you are the only christian who has ever showed up here and claimed that premonitions are such an important part of your gods plan.

I'm admittedly an odd duck even among my Christian friends.  I'm on an assignment from no earthly agency or church.  The guidance I have gotten has been similar to accounts of early American preachers that I read about like Charles Finney.  He had an astounding encounter with God that was so exclusive that when he went the church authorities of the day he actually feared that they would misdirect him if he was made to comply with popular doctrine.  When confronted with the power of his conviction in his view of the bible that didn't comply with their views, they simply ordained him and told him to do what God had directed.  I recommend reading a historical account of Charles Finney.  But just because my experience stands out does not mean it isn't fully compatible with the basic Christian's confession here.

  We've had folks make all sorts of claims about their various versions of religion, and most visiting Christians make claims that we can recognize because some variation has been expressed here before. And nobody else has surprised us with anything so new or different as you have.

You just don't know what a joy it is to be able to be flattered by that statement and at the same time know that I really have nothing to do with it personally.  I can only pray that my pride be in check because many men of God have managed to blow it, because Satan is still smarter than I am.

Abraham Lincoln joked about Douglas, who was a great orator and probably better looking.  He told a crowd that when Douglas looks at himself in a mirror, he walks away acting like he had something to do with it.  And when another competitor accused him of being two faced, he said: If it's true what the  gentleman claims that I have two faces, why in the world would I choose to use this one.  (Or something like that).

Which would be cool except that you are a majority of one. If you are the only christian having such detailed premonitions, why? And if others have them, why have they not been brought up before? 

Good question.

  If I were a god and wanted premonitions to be more stunning, so to speak, I would at least have my Batman warnings take place in, oh, I dunno, Aurora, CO rather than California. And I would write something on the wall, like "Duck at the premier in 2012" and other handy tips like that.

His ways are mysterious and I think that the way he put that together the way he did was not to provide a means of preserving physical life in any single incident as you might want him to do, but to send the message that he has always sent regarding his principles in the Ten Commandments, Prayer, and the Bible.

The earthquake is the same theme, not to be a early warning of physical danger, but to prove his presence and reinforce the reality of his final judgement on mankind as described in the bible.

We are by nature attached to our bodies s if our bodies are all we have, but that is just wrong.  We don't have souls.  You don't have a soul.  I don't have a soul.  We are souls. You are a soul.  YOU HAVE A BODY.

We somewhat concentrate on our material body when He means to save your soul from eternal hell, but only if you accept his plan of salvation through the shed blood of his Son.

God does love you as John 3:16 says, and he is willing to take you back under his condition, that you come as a child, confess your sin, and believe on the Son he has sent.  Be ready to change your mind about supporting Gay marriage, and government and corporate suppport of ungodly lifestyles not the leas of which is covetousness. 

Your claims, totally isolated from other versions of Christianity,

  I don't think so.  Just because I have premonitions and other things happen to me doesn't mean everyone will have exactly the same experience, but in God's own way they can see the light.  He works with us individually under the same principles of the Gospel.

I talked with a lady the other night that told me many wonderful things that affirm her faith and when I told her of mind's her eye's lit up and said "isn't the Lord wonderful;!  She knew what I was saying was true because of her own experience.  She was from New Jersey and lived there and flew a lot back in 2011.  She like others had sensed that something bad could happen and she prayed about it.  God gave her a dream of a clear blue sky and an airplane from the rear view tilted at an angle just like the one that flew into the towers, and though she didn't understand it she knew that God told her she would not be on the flight.   Then 9/11 happened and she though back about the dream, and knew that it was a premonition of the evil act and of her own personal protection.  This is a lady that has posted a picture of Jesus Christ and George Washington on her classroom wall and tells the children to always trust Jesus and learn about Washington.  She told me she doesn't care if she gets fired, she will never stop teaching about Jesus.  Her fellow teachers have many discipline problems with their classes and she said she has no problem with hers.

I'm not sure where I have ever met a more saintly human being than her, and that was just two nights ago.

I want to repeat, I told her a couple of my stories and she knew exactly what I was talking about, because I was talking about the same Jesus that leads and guides her.  So what I have is the real deal, just God's own expression of it for me.

  Are you actually so special that your god doesn't want you to be bothered. You know, like going outside to pick up a rock instead of taking one with you? And where are his priorities? You know. Bible lessons and dead people treated with the same nonchalance.

 He seems to delight in proving his presence to those who love him, and he can show it in the smallest ways.  I can't answer to his priorities, I just resign myself to his will.
Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.  Psa. 37:4 
Don't take you physical body more seriously than you eternal soul. 


We've got Junebug insisting He loves us (normal, claim-wise) and you, insisting He treats you real special. Again, why?  I haven't told you all the perils of my life, but on balance I do feel I have a special circumstance as a messenger.  It's biblical, we don't all do the same things.

I'll try to do better answering questons.
Thanks parkingplaces

[jaimehlers]

I noticed that you left out the majority of my post in your response.  Are you giving up on trying to argue with me?  If not, then you really should make the effort to fully respond to my posts.

OK give me a slap.  You guys have no sense of humor do you.  Jesus loves you by the way.

I don't think humor is appropriate in a discussion like this.  Especially over the internet, it's too easy to misinterpret things.  Something that you think is funny can be insulting; something that you intend as humor can be anything but.  You're better off sticking to what you mean and leaving the humor out.

Let me explain something again that I explained before.  I'm going to be hard on you all corporately because the mass of you working together is a corporate evil.  When I'm tough on one of you I'm treating you not as an individual as much as I'm treating you as a representative of the corporate fallacy.

Talking about "the corporate fallacy" doesn't make much sense.  About all I can think of is that you mean the fallacy of the majority (argumentum ad populum), but that isn't the case here, as it relates to believing something is true because a lot of people believe it to be so.  Perhaps you should explain just what you mean by that.

I have respect for the few of you that have corrected others on this forum for the slanderous and profane accusations, but little respect for those who act in concert with it.  I'm here to do battle, but that battle is for the truth of this most important issue.  You are all wrong to deny God's existence, and Satan is the author of your denial.  Don't take it personally, just man up and realise that until otherwise stated you are all the same corporate entity, and not an individuals for the sake of these discussions.

Ever hear of the play "Man of La Mancha"?  It's about a Spanish gentleman named Don Quixote who decided to go on a knightly quest to right all the wrongs of the world.  However, he did so by allowing his imagination to override his judgment and his reason.  One of the most memorable scenes is where he decides to charge an 'giant' (actually a windmill) on horseback and ends up bruised and battered, the windmill no worse for wear.  It's where we get phrases like "tilting at windmills" (attacking imaginary enemies).

Simply put, that's how you're coming across to us.  Like a modern-day Quixote, attacking enemies that only exist in your imagination, and failing miserably because of your self-deception.

Because He's God.  You are making this too easy for me here.

Which, of course, actually explains nothing.  Saying "God did it" or "because he's God" is nothing more than a convenient placeholder for when you don't actually have the first idea of why something might be.

I'm giving you all the evidence I have and a whole bunch of it.  Read through it all and then just try to imagine it all happening to you, just the way I describe it.  That is my proof, and i have a feeling it's going to be the best proof This forum will ever get.

Anecdotes aren't evidence.  The fact that I can imagine going through something does not make your explanation for it convincing.  It also does not make the lack of evidence any less fatal for your argument.

Well, I hope you enjoyed reading it anyway.  I told you it was in that grey area, but still a lot of fun for me to have said those two words to those two people, and have them report back to me with... those two words.  It is reminiscent of IMPACT, without being exactly like it.  You know, earthquakes, asteroids that blast out windows, it's kind of in the same genere.  I have a fascinating life.

It's like it in another way, too.  Namely, it's not evidence of a deity's actions.

[WayneHarropson]

At least Tbright and others had the sense to give up the fight.......not Wayne,he just keeps recycling the same stories thinking we will buy into it.

 (Tbright was a theist who came here to change our minds,but soon gave up)

Now that's not fair, the meteorite story isn't recycled.  I have more that aren't' listed. maybe I should start rotating them in to keep it fresh.

Monkey, hoe many have you read?  It's an important question to all of you how many and which ones  Please let me know, so I can know how to weight my responses proportionally.

[WayneHarropson]

Like a commercial jingle: If it ain't magic, it ain't supernatural, and if it ain't supernatural, it ain't god.

I'd like to know how many and which of the stories you've read.  You say they are nothing unusual, if that's your opinon of them then I guess there is nothing for us to discuss.

[WayneHarropson]

I noticed that you left out the majority of my post in your response.  Are you giving up on trying to argue with me?  If not, then you really should make the effort to fully respond to my posts.

These thing get a little lengthy, If I missed answering something important start a fresh one.

You're better off sticking to what you mean and leaving the humor out.

Are you running some kind of a convent here?

 

Perhaps you should explain just what you mean by that.

There is a great book called the people of the lie written by M Scott Peck, an army psychiatrist that researched demon posession to write his book.  He wasn't a believer when he started his study but by the time he finished his book he got baptised and is now a believer.  His research converted him.  In his book he has a chapter about corporate evil, that is what I am referring to here.

Simply put, that's how you're coming across to us.  Like a modern-day Quixote, attacking enemies that only exist in your imagination, and failing miserably because of your self-deception.

 

I don't think of you as enemies personally. I don't take the rediculous insults personally, they reflect much more on those use them than on me, but they need not be rewarded who spew them, which is what corporate evil tends to do.

[WayneHarropson]

Post removed. This was, for whatever reason, an exact duplicate of an earlier post  from Wayne(http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23483.msg545467.html#msg545467).

Don't know if Wayne double posted or it stems from a problem in the approval process Wayne has to deal with. Doesn't matter. No foul, no harm.

Removed to simplify the thread and reduce confusion.

[WayneHarropson]

Median, why don't you prove to me that you aren't addled with confirmation bias.  I say you are, prove to me you aren't.

F minus. 

You made the claim.  The burden of proof is yours.  Making a claim and insisting someone else prove it isn't so is juvenile and unacceptable.

 
I guess a better way to ask the queston is, Median, you accuse me, and accuse me and accuse me of confirmation bias, which I suppose could have some influence on my perception of things as it would anyone, but are you willing to assign confirmation bias to yourself?

Why wouldn't it also apply to someone that has taken on the atheist religion?

I see evidence of confirmation bias whenever you claim that God can't exist in the absence of the limited kind of evidence that reinforces your preconceived view.  Is that not confirmation bias?


Then I give you lots of testimonial evidence and your confirmation bias prevents you from conceding the possibility, or maybe I misunderstood you.

Screwtape, I read your story and enjoyed it.  Well written. 

It says
"Absence of evidence does not falsify a claim."

You all should k ow by now that the testimonies I enter as evidence overwhelming supports the existence of God, given that the reports are true, from a reliable honest source, that does not rely on one example of a few, but on many over the span of a lifetime.  It is evidence that lines up with other testimonies recorded in both contemporary and ancient books, but what makes it most compelling is that it involves current events and is happening in a way in real time.

The most recent, about meteorites, by itself would not be very convincing if not for a history of similar interventions.  God gave me a vision and a word to prove the earthquake was an intervention, he gave me a meteorite sighting and lined it up perfectly for the sake of the couple who needed more proof that my other prophetic claims have merit. God seems to be verifying his interventions, if in a playful way.  Think of the Gas pump leaking was to prevent me from downgrading the darkknight story. 

It is imperative that I report this all to you just the way it happened so that you can have the opportunity to alter your viewpoint.

[nogodsforme]

Like a commercial jingle: If it ain't magic, it ain't supernatural, and if it ain't supernatural, it ain't god.

I'd like to know how many and which of the stories you've read.  You say they are nothing unusual, if that's your opinon of them then I guess there is nothing for us to discuss.

I have read all of your stories. The events described are unusual. But none of them seem supernatural-- not just strange, memorable or unlikely, but impossible to explain, things that never could happen without magical intervention. I maintain that my story about flying in illegal air space on a small plane piloted by drunks in a lightning storm in Africa trumps all of your stories.

I have had many religious people who heard my dangerous plane flight story try to convince me that god or Jesus landed that plane, because it seems so impossible that the drunk Italian teenagers could have done it. Yet, they did. I did survive the bus explosion by jumping out the back window. And even more unlikely, unusual things happen every day, all over the world, to all kinds of people, religious and atheist.

We all agree that you have had some unusual experiences. So have I and so have most people. You have yet to explain why the slightly strange coincidences that have happened to you qualify as supernatural. Also, you have yet to explain why, other than your thinking it, you attribute the events to your god, the one you happen to believe in, instead one of the many others out there.

Do you understand the difference between strange or unlikely coincidence and SUPERNATURAL?

1) Strange: The song Sympathy for the Devil starts playing on the radio in your car, and just then you drive past a guy dressed as Satan in front of a store advertising devil's food cake. That is called a coincidence, because most everyone else who drove past was not listening to music about Satan at that moment.

Since there are images of the devil in popular culture, and there is music about Satan, sometimes a person will be listening to it and see something randomly related to the devil.

2) Unlikely: You buy a lottery ticket and then pray (to Satan or Jesus or Brahma) to win the lottery. You win. Well, a lot of people pray about winning the lottery. It is unlikely to win the lottery, but someone generally does. If you pray to win and then buy a winning lottery ticket it is a coincidence.

3) Supernatural: You are driving by the guy dressed as the devil as above and a giant hand emerges from the sky, plucks the guy up and hauls him up into the clouds. Cars crash around you as everyone stops to watch the scene and film it on their cellphones. Winning lottery cards fly out of the store into the hands of everyone watching. A flock of birds flying by in v formation suddenly re-arrange themselves to spell out Jesus is Lord. News cameras and show up to capture the action and inform the world. Everyone in the world now believes in Jesus.

See the difference?

[ParkingPlaces]

Why wouldn't it also apply to someone that has taken on the atheist religion?

If you are going to insist on calling atheism a religion, you are going to have to redefine the world "religion" to encompass it. And once you do that, then you won't be able to apply it to beliefs in a god. They are two different things. As the old saw goes, atheism is a religion the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god. We have no organization, no doctrine, no rituals, no collection plates, no preachers. Insisting that it is a religion is tantamount to using the "n" word, albeit with less baggage.

Please stop using that term. It makes you sound stupid and irritates us. Not a good combination.

[Azdgari]

^^ To add on this, Wayne, and helpfully I hope:  Atheists can be religious.  But when they are, their religion is not "atheism".  Just as your religion is not "theism".  "Atheism" and "theism" don't tell us anything about a person or their beliefs, beyond whether they believe the existence of a god of some description.

Make sense?

[jaimehlers]

These thing get a little lengthy, If I missed answering something important start a fresh one.

You can check on the parts you missed and respond when you get the chance.

Are you running some kind of a convent here?

More like, I don't know you outside of what you've posted here.  I am not the kind of person who jokes around with people I don't know very well.  For that matter, I don't really joke around with the people here, except for a few that I've come to know and like.  It isn't about me, anyway.  Given my druthers, I'd just ignore it, but it's quite evident that your humor is not going over very well with most of the people here.

There is a great book called the people of the lie written by M Scott Peck, an army psychiatrist that researched demon posession to write his book.  He wasn't a believer when he started his study but by the time he finished his book he got baptised and is now a believer.  His research converted him.  In his book he has a chapter about corporate evil, that is what I am referring to here.

An appeal to authority?  Shame on you.  As for demon possession, I simply do not buy into this idea of demons or devils who possess people.  Especially since these cases of demon possession never seem to happen anywhere there's competent doctors.  It reminds me of The Crucible^Wiki and the hysteria that comes from accusations of "demon possession" and "witchcraft" in places where people don't know any better.

I don't think of you as enemies personally. I don't take the rediculous insults personally, they reflect much more on those use them than on me, but they need not be rewarded who spew them, which is what corporate evil tends to do.

You still haven't explained what you mean by "corporate evil".  You stated where you got the term, but you haven't defined what it means.  Please be so kind as to do so.

[WayneHarropson]

You still haven't explained what you mean by "corporate evil".  You stated where you got the term, but you haven't defined what it means.  Please be so kind as to do so.

I might be over simplifying it but it is gang mentality whereby two or more people working in concert have no conscous whereas any individual of the group has a conscious.  Kids gang up and bully individuals in a group but any single part of that gang isn't likely to bully the individual. There are probably other terms for the dynamic but that's my best recollection of it. 

[WayneHarropson]

See the difference?

Someone here just challenged me to keep an open mind, to resist confirmation bias.  Your very name on this forum says to me that you've made up your mind and no quantity, frequency or magnatude of supernatural intervention is going to penetrate that.

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless.  The corporate fallacy here is evident because I'm the only one that will tell you that your thinking is purposefully unreasonable, because the others here have lost their conscious to the group.

To trust your objectivity you would have to change your name, otherwise why should I trust you are being fair?

[median]

See the difference?

Someone here just challenged me to keep an open mind, to resist confirmation bias.  Your very name on this forum says to me that you've made up your mind and no quantity, frequency or magnatude of supernatural intervention is going to penetrate that.

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless.  The corporate fallacy here is evident because I'm the only one that will tell you that your thinking is purposefully unreasonable, because the others here have lost their conscious to the group.

To trust your objectivity you would have to change your name, otherwise why should I trust you are being fair?

Wayne, this "collective consciousness" argument doesn't work - because likely ALL of us non-believers came here as such. So your attempt to write off our suspicions and/or skepticism toward your interpretations are not helping your case toward 1) validating your belief in Yahweh or 2) demonstrating that you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true. Faith does not matter. What you put your faith IN does. People "have faith" in lots of things, and they are often dead wrong. This is why I said faith is useless for deciphering fact from fiction.

Again, dismissing bad arguments (irrational biases, etc) is a GOOD thing. Don't you think? You would certainly dismiss bad arguments from Muslims, wouldn't you? And so are we! We are calling into question your interpretation of said events - because you have displayed (on multiple occasions) a general eagerness toward confirmation (due to the assumption you made in childhood and wish so badly to continue now). That is the very definition of confirmation bias. You have demonstrated that you are unwilling to look at any other interpretation of the events. That is called BIAS!

So, if you want to argue that we are being unreasonable (or irrational), then please demonstrate that claim. Don't just play the "Because Wayne says so..." game. If you think we are being irrational then please point out exactly how and where - because from where we sit it is you who is providing the irrational justification (i.e. - not demonstrating Mark 16/John 14, and spinning the events in your favor).

median

p.s. - If a person had the screen name "no-unicorns-for-me", would that make them incapable of seeing (and acknowledging) a unicorn if one was actually demonstrated? Many of us here at WWGHA came from Christian backgrounds (very similar to yours) and we changed our minds! So your attempt to discredit specific individuals (which is committing the invalid logical fallacy of Ad Hominem Attack) is absurd, and intellectually hypocritical to say the least. We are perfectly capable (and willing!) to change our minds - provided there is new sound evidence. So, please stop with the logical fallacies and begin to demonstrate how you know that your Yahweh deity exists, and is the one that is responsible for your coincidences and interpretations of what happened.

p.p.s. - For the hundredth time...ATHEISM IS THE LACK OF BELIEF IN A GOD. IT IS NOT A RELIGION! Do you believe in Santa Claus? If not, you're an a-Santa-Clausist (just like us).

[ParkingPlaces]

Wayne

I have printed out a few of your stories, directly from the links you provided. And I excerpted the meteorite story from one of your recent posts. I am taking them to two different christian friends (one is mormon) in the morning, because I am going to see one of them anyway and the other one lives nearby. I am going to ask each them when they think of the stories. I will say only that I got them from someone I am in discussions with on the Internet, and ask if the stories sound plausible to them.

The first woman is 85 years old and is quite proud about the fact that she has attended the same church for 82 years. She knows I am not a believer. The second woman is about my age (in her 60's) and a mormon. She knows I am an atheist, not because I told her but because her boss, also an atheist, mentioned it to her one day. Because he knew. She asked me about it (this was at least ten years ago), I told her it was true, she frowned, and that was that. But we are still friends. She likes it that I'm willing to fix the damage her daughters' boyfriends have caused to her house over the years. Drugs and alcohol don't work any better in mormon homes than anywhere else.

Anyway I'm hoping they will read the stories and give me some feedback from a believers perspective. I'll give you a full report tomorrow after I get home. It will be late in the day.

Now, a question based on something you said in your last post. I quote:

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless.

Why is it that you expect atheists to acknowledge god's intervention? Are you not clear on the concept. Most of us here are atheists. There is no god. Which makes intervention on his part a bit difficult. Since he doesn't exist, he's kind of helpless, if you get my drift.

We can talk hypothetically about your god, sort of. But I, at least, have no ability to assume he exists, even for purposes of argument. I can make up a generic deity from time to time when I try to imagine specifics of the concept. But that's the best you can hope for. Unless you can provide something more solid than your offerings up to now.

[bertatberts]

Wayne: When I had read what you had written today, I thought, the poor ape must feel insulted that he shares a common ancestor with man.

Please Wayne for the sack of sanity start to actually think will you!