Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 41714 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1015 on: February 19, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »
Yup.

Just like buying a red Prius meant that all of a sudden I saw them everywhere. A sign from god that I had done the right thing to save the planet? But when I had a white car there were suddenly an awful lot of white cars on the road.... :o

Again, god puts a rock in Wayne's pocket at the right time for no apparent reason, but lets thousands of children die of preventable causes every day. Not much of a god. Puny god. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1016 on: February 19, 2013, 04:51:57 PM »
What a very informative article, Bertaberts. Thanks. I hope Wayne likes it too.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1017 on: February 19, 2013, 08:36:21 PM »

What is happening here? Is the universe trying to tell you something?

No. This is called the frequency illusion.[/color]
[/quote]
Just think how seldom something like that could happen before mass media and television.  You bring up an interesting point that, nonetheless fails miserably to explain away even my primary rock story.

Just think about this: It is a rock.  I'm in a suit. I'm going to church.  It's not a pocket knife. It's not fingernail clippers.  It's a rock.  I'm a grown man, at that time in my fourties.  It isn't my rock and I have no rock collection.  I'm no more interested in rocks than any normal person, but it was a nice looking rock my daughter thought was worth keeping.  It was one of two rocks in the entire house.  I was arrested at the door before leaving the house, and found myself looking at the rock.  I probably questioned myself why I would want that thing in my pocket because it didn't make sense, but still I was arrested at the door, and found myself staring at it.  So I took it. 

What I just described to you was the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I was not walking past a television set with a trivia scroll bombarding my mind with information that might be repeated later.  However, I will concede one point.  If you remember the tooth thing, I did walk into the next room after editing my post and a dentist was on the TV.  That's funny.

I told you that I was amazed, but not surprised when it turned out someone needed it. The spirit that guides me has a great sense of humor and blesses me.  Now think of the gas pump leak.  If you knew how much I like working on my cars you could understand how a broken gas pump for me was a double blessing and comes from the same one that persuaded me to pick up the rock. It wasn't me, it was something outside me.  Remember that.  Again it wasn't me.  It wasn't TV. It wasn't an obsession for rocks. It was a direct instruction from the Holy Spirit that had a purpose.

Maybe I should tell you how the rock was used in the lesson.  When you have unrepented sin it is like a heavy weight you have to carry.  When you ask forgiveness and take steps to right a wrong, a burden is lifted.

I know you are doing your best to debunk the undebunkable.  The God I serve has lead people in similar ways through the ages and those like Benjamin Franklin have documented it.  Your arguments get sillier and sillier as time goes by but what you may ultimately find is that what we are all experiencing here is the reality that God blinds the unbelieving just like the bible says He does.  All your flailing and fighting about it is just a big freak show and it is so important to you that you spend hours of your time beating your head against the wall.  I guess there must be some satisfaction to you when some hapless person falls into the pit with you. 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1018 on: February 19, 2013, 09:51:24 PM »
You've consistently failed to provide evidence to show that this is the case, or even that a god was involved at all.  All you have is your emotional belief that it is true, but emotions are easily fooled.  That's why the topic is about validating your belief in your god, rather than (say) making an emotional appeal for your god

What was emotional about a rock?  Come on jaimehlers. You need my validations to be squishy and emotional but you fail to see how in squishy it was to be lead here.  I had a dream that my leg was amputated......  pretty emotional!  Pretty easy to be fooled!  I am pounding home the very validation the thread asks for, it's just that your rabid confirmation bias has blinded you so much that you reject it out of hand.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
the one thing you are not allowing into your reasoning is that there is one true God that performs the kinds of works that I have described.  You are the one locked in an endless loop, not me.  My God is capable of proving himself to me and all you can say is that my parents lied to me and that is the only place I could be getting my information.  I don't just mine it form my past indoctrination, I have a personal experience that completely reinforces it

What we're questioning is your insistence that those events are 'supernatural' in the first place.  Right now, it seems to be the case that if you can't explain what happened, it must be supernatural. 

The truth of the matter here is that you can't explain it in natural terms either, though you try and fail miserably.  I'm having no trouble explaining how it happens because I know who makes it happen.


Long-shot coincidences happen; indeed, they're actually fairly common[1].  And, ultimately, all of your personal events boil down to long-shot coincidences combined with subjective experiences.
 1. a single person can have a one-in-a-million coincidence once every month; that means that one of those coincidences happens to someone, somewhere, once every six minutes

You seem to have just redefined long shot here.  You are so silly.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
The Spirit prompted me to do an unusual thing.  While getting ready to leave my house for church I stopped at the door and my attention fixed upon a rock my daughter picked up on a hike.  I put it in my sport jacket side pocket, and I had no idea why.  During the first meeting at church someone tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I wouldn't mind sitting in for an absent teacher and team teach a class.  I had never been asked to do anything like it and I agreed.  The other teachaer had prepared the lesson but in the middle of the lesson came to a part  that required a rock, and confess that he had failed to bring one.  I took the rock out of my pocket and tossed to him and I knew that the spirit prompted me to pick the rock up because the spirit knew the lesson plan and I didn't.  I didn't even know I'd be in the class.  I was amazed when that happened, but not surprised because I had many encouters of the Spirit leading and that was just another example.  So, you may want to abstain from accusing me of simply being credulous.  It may apply to people worshipping false gods, it does in no way apply to those worshipping the God of the Bible in Spirit and in truth.


The reason people are accusing you of being credulous is because you take a coincidence like this (you pick up a rock, and end up needing a rock later on)

I'm pretty sure were not talking about the same thing here, you just can't see it.  Be sure to read the other post today. It completely debunks you here quite deftly.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I'd ask you to explain how I knew to take a rock without the supernatural guidance, but I'm afraid that you will parrot everyone else here and say I have super intuition, or I just got lucky, or that statistics allowed it, but I'm hoping you don't because it's embarrassing to see people make fools of themselves.  There is one very simple explanation.  God was blessing me and that teacher with proof of his favor and guidance.  Please don't try to explain it away.... It's just how it is.  And don't tell me I can't prove to you that I took the rock to church, or that I imagined it, or I forgot the account.  It's gettin tiring.  Oh, and by the way I'm totally qualified to report exactly what happened to me, I don't need a theology degree or a doctorate in statistics, or psychology, or critical thinking.  Read the stories and you will know that God intervenes.

  The problem with your 'simple' explanation is that it really isn't simple at all.  It requires a number of unwarranted assumptions that are conveniently packaged within the 'simple' explanation.  For example, that your daughter brought the rock home at your god's urging, that he made sure your daughter would put it down right where you could see it, that he directed you to notice it, that he directed you to pick it up, that he made the other teacher forget the rock he intended to bring (or at least allowed him to forget it)...  I'll bet I'm just scratching the surface here.

I answered this elsewhere.  But I'm going to absolutely agree one hundred percent on  the last part.  Here's the rub.  It is absolutely complicated just like you described, not simple in execution at all.  It is absolutely fascinating how complex it all is.  You are  right.  You are so so right.  That's why knowing how it happened is so simple, the god of the universe did it.  It is that simple.

Did you know that a god knows how many times a robin hops on any given day?  He has the hair on your head numbered (even if it is zero.) Placing that rock was a no brainer for Him.

You seem to be expecting a bunch of skeptics to read about your experiences and take them at face value (credulously, in other words).  Like it or not, Wayne, "please don't try to explain it away" doesn't fly here.   

I guess your are right, I must allow you to try, after all, that's what were here for.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You say I have beliefs, I say they aren't just imaginations that have no basis in fact and experience, what I know about God is supported by solid examples of intervention so they are anything but the result of being  irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination.  You may as well give up on those charges, they may work in other cases they are useless in discussing my case.

Nobody's saying these are things you just dreamed up, you know.  The credulousness, irrationality and gullibility come from your unwillingness to consider any cause but the supernatural for these events.

Some coincidences have natural explanations, It's my job to weed out the natural ones from the ones I'm reporting to you as god orchestrated "episodes".  How am I doing?

So, your god wants you to fail abjectly at convincing atheists and skeptics?  That's certainly how it seems from this end; if (and bear in mind that this is a mighty big if) your god is real, then he sent you here completely unprepared to deal with atheists and skeptics, meaning he wanted you to fail, and fail repeatedly.  Success would have required that evidence that you say your god 'forbade' us to have.

You make a good point, maybe he's helping me improve my typing skills and you guys are the Mavis bacon program assigned to me.  Here's a little secret, sometimes I sound like I'm complaining, but really I'm laughing at all of you.  I'm acting like I'm complaining to make the very valid point that you guys are silly, and really I'm just having a blast letting you know it.  It's all for a good cause, the truth.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I wouldn't bother if I was you.  This is not a court of law, you must weigh, in my case whether my testimony is accurate, and make your decision.  You either call me a liar, or you accept the testimony.


False dichotomy.  There are other options; you could be mistaken, you could be delusional, you could have been misled...


 I think we've eliminated all those possibilities, but if you need a little more time I'll be here to help.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
Your demand for the kind of evidence that God is denying you is not proof that my testimony is false, it's that an all powerful God can keep anything he wants from you, he doesn't care how much you demand it.


More likely, this is your attempt to rationalize away the fact that you cannot provide any such evidence, and to blame your god for it.

You just don't know how comfortable I am with the solid evidence I have, but you aren't me, so you'll  just have to try to take my word for it.

Why must he be wrong?  It's very simple; if your god proved himself to you, then it would have been child's play for him, an all-powerful god, to provide you with the evidence you needed to prove yourself to us.

It's also child's play to withold it from you.  Think about that.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1019 on: February 20, 2013, 12:42:42 AM »
Wayne

You're getting a little cocky. That isn't against the rules but it doesn't invite dialogue. By declaring yourself the winner you are irking the locals, and that has never turned out well. You know that the two sides in this discussion are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Which means that it is easier than usual for you to bore us out of our skulls. I would suggest that you try looking at our doubts in a different light. One where you are a bit more understanding about our skepticism and one where you try to explain your conclusions a bit better. Otherwise you are accomplishing nothing here. Besides learning to type better.

And you might help us out a bit by explaining why you are the only christian who has ever showed up here and claimed that premonitions are such an important part of your gods plan. We've had folks make all sorts of claims about their various versions of religion, and most visiting christians make claims that we can recognize because some variation has been expressed here before. And nobody else has surprised us with anything so new or different as you have. Which would be cool except that you are a majority of one. If you are the only christian having such detailed premonitions, why? And if others have them, why have they not been brought up before?

If I were a god and wanted premonitions to be more stunning, so to speak, I would at least have my Batman warnings take place in, oh, I dunno, Aurora, CO rather than California. And I would write something on the wall, like "Duck at the premier in 2012" and other handy tips like that. Your claims, totally isolated from other versions of christianity, are both implausible and outside not only mainstream christian denominations, but also outside of all the tiny little quirkier versions we encounter to often here. Why? Are you actually so special that your god doesn't want you to be bothered. You know, like going outside to pick up a rock instead of taking one with you? And where are his priorities? You know. Bible lessons and dead people treated with the same nonchalance. We've got Junebug insisting He loves us (normal, claim-wise) and you, insisting He treats you real special. Again, why?

We have questions. Your answers have to be of a better quality. "Because I said so" works when it is a parent/kid thing, but not in the rest of life. Unless you're Idi Amin or something. But then it stinks bad.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1020 on: February 20, 2013, 01:04:14 AM »
And nobody else has surprised us with anything so new or different as you have. Which would be cool except that you are a majority of one. If you are the only christian having such detailed premonitions, why? And if others have them, why have they not been brought up before?

Not only that, but I'd like to add:  "...And of what possible use are your unique experiences to us?"  Even if you do have a real, live god on the line, Wayne, you appear to be the only person on Earth that it wants to talk to.  That takes your experiences out of the realm of "useful things for humanity to know" and dumps them into the "non-replicable and unexplained phenomenon" category.   
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1021 on: February 20, 2013, 01:09:23 AM »
And nobody else has surprised us with anything so new or different as you have. Which would be cool except that you are a majority of one. If you are the only christian having such detailed premonitions, why? And if others have them, why have they not been brought up before?

Not only that, but I'd like to add:  "...And of what possible use are your unique experiences to us?"  Even if you do have a real, live god on the line, Wayne, you appear to be the only person on Earth that it wants to talk to.  That takes your experiences out of the realm of "useful things for humanity to know" and dumps them into the "non-replicable and unexplained phenomenon" category.

Great point Astreja.  Wayne, you are wanting us to open our hearts or minds or non-rock-filled pockets to your god when you might find a more accepting audience amongst the self-identified-as-religious crowd. Why aren't you spreading your secret weapon amongst the people at jesuslovesyou.com or werenotkiddinghesreallyrisen.com or wherever it is that the theists of the world laugh at atheists.

Oh yea, I remember now. burnematthestake.com. Why aren't you there passing along your trade secrets there?
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Offline median

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1022 on: February 20, 2013, 01:41:46 AM »
RESPONSE TO WAYNE...

Are you a pantheist that just wants to make sure the God of the Bible is dismissed? 

No, I say similar things to Muslims, Jews, New Agers, Wiccans, and the like. You're all practicing credulity. That's the difference - critical thinking vs. superstitious will.

The God that has performed the works described in my episodes is the God of the Bible.   

Prove it. Don't just ASSERT IT. Prove it. Demonstrate how exactly you know it's Yahweh who created these unlikely occurrences (b/c all we've seen so far is Wayne FILTERING/SLANTING what actually happened to fit his presupposition). That is dishonest (just like the other religions practice).


I cannot dismiss what he has done nor can I attribute those works to another non biblical God.  You continue to repeat that my parents lied to me and that I'm gullible.  It is your recurring theme, you cannot stop asking it because you8 will never accept anything but that which satisfies you predetermined result.   

NOPE. I used to think just like you for over 20 years. I attempted the same bad arguments and confirmation bias tactics you are using (all while completely ignoring, as you are doing, absolutely ANY other interpretation of the facts). I do not have a predetermined result. It is you, Wayne, that has that - and you have already demonstrated that here (with your spun stories of coincidence). Again, these aren't "greater works" (as Jesus supposedly told you). You are clinging to naturally occurring events (lesser) and calling them supernatural because of your presupposition, instead of looking at all the available interpretations. Your bias is clearly corrupting your judgment because you WANT these things to confirm what you assumed from your childhood. You are practicing the very definition of confirmation bias. It's sad that you have poisoned your mind such that you shun good reasoning and refuse to see that.

What you need to admit to yourself median is that for all your effort, the one thing you are not allowing into your reasoning is that there is one true God that performs the kinds of works that I have described.  You are the one locked in an endless loop, not me.  My God is capable of proving himself to me and all you can say is that my parents lied to me and that is the only place I could be getting my information.  I don't just mine it form my past indoctrination, I have a personal experience that completely reinforces it

Two things here Wayne. One, I never said your parents lied to you. I said they just told you, and you bought it. Well, they were mistaken (as you are, and as the other religions are - which you agree!). See? You're just as much of an atheist as we are Wayne - about every other "God" but the one your parents told you to believe in.

Secondly, the question of whether your "Yahweh Elohim" deity exists has nothing to do with "allowing into...reasoning". To this point, it seems you are quite confused. The reasoning process only works with the arguments (propositions, premises, and conclusions) that are fed into it. Do you know the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument?

What YOU, Wayne, need to admit to yourself is that you are practicing confirmation bias and in denial about it (all while refusing to allow critical thinking in). And this is hypocrisy because you would (and most likely do) practice very critical thinking when it comes to nearly everything else in life (i.e. the salesman at the door, bank accounts/money/finance, friend/foe judgments, etc).

You need to read four or five of the accounts of intervention by god and ask me questions with regard to those examples of proof I have because all your questioning along the same lines will not persuade me that the supernatural events I report didn't occur.  There is apossibility that you have read none of them and are only talking to me from what you have read here,  If that's the case, we are both wasting time.  Please tell me what of mine you have read so I can determine whether to continue this discussion with you.

No actually, you are quite mistaken here Wayne (though I have read at least two of those "accounts"). First, I did NOT say all of the events, that you claimed, did not happen. For one, I have no way of verifying if such events took place in the exact manner you stated. However, that's not even the important point here. What IS relevant is YOUR INTERPRETATION of the facts. So far, what you keep pointing to (even if accurately depicted) are RARE occurrences. So tell us Wayne (please), How do you distinguish a natural occurring event from a non-natural occurring one?


I know what you are thinking when you think I'm being credulous for believing there is a spirit.  You are flat out wrong, but I don't fault you.  I'll give you an example.  The Spirit prompted me to do an unusual thing.  While getting ready to leave my house for church I stopped at the door and my attention fixed upon a rock my daughter picked up on a hike.  I put it in my sport jacket side pocket, and I had no idea why.  During the first meeting at church someone tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I wouldn't mind sitting in for an absent teacher and team teach a class.  I had never been asked to do anything like it and I agreed.  The other teachaer had prepared the lesson but in the middle of the lesson came to a part  that required a rock, and confess that he had failed to bring one.  I took the rock out of my pocket and tossed to him and I knew that the spirit prompted me to pick the rock up because the spirit knew the lesson plan and I didn't.  I didn't even know I'd be in the class.  I was amazed when that happened, but not surprised because I had many encouters of the Spirit leading and that was just another example.  So, you may want to abstain from accusing me of simply being credulous.  It may apply to people worshipping false gods, it does in no way apply to those worshipping the God of the Bible in Spirit and in truth. 

I'd ask you to explain how I knew to take a rock without the supernatural guidance, but I'm afraid that you will parrot everyone else here and say I have super intuition, or I just got lucky, or that statistics allowed it, but I'm hoping you don't because it's embarrassing to see people make fools of themselves.  There is one very simple explanation.  God was blessing me and that teacher with proof of his favor and guidance.  Please don't try to explain it away.... It's just how it is.  And don't tell me I can't prove to you that I took the rock to church, or that I imagined it, or I forgot the account.  It's gettin tiring.  Oh, and by the way I'm totally qualified to report exactly what happened to me, I don't need a theology degree or a doctorate in statistics, or psychology, or critical thinking.  Read the stories and you will know that God intervenes.

LOL. Notice the automatic confirmation bias you BEGAN with in this story, Wayne. Before even beginning to recount this tale you say, "The Spirit prompted me..." STOP! How do you know it was "the Holy Spirit"?? I encounter this SAME exact argument from Hindus and Muslims online all the time (indeed I used it myself for years). It simply fails. You were already ASSUMING the very thing that needed to be tested for falsification. What you are practicing is slanted and biased - for one because you are actively LOOKING to confirm it (based on your presupposition), and two because you have lots to lose if you're wrong (emotionally, socially, etc). You are not doing disinterested work here and that is why it is suspect Wayne. An internal head-voice (self talk) is NOT a demonstration of a spirit (and neither are rare events - which happen all the time). You need more than this (as your own bible says you should be able to do).


God demonstrates to me, I don't demonstrate anything.


So then you are disobeying your own scriptures (all while trying to twist them in order to avoid refutation). You're not doing anything new Wayne. Every religion does (and claims) what you're doing/claiming. Again, how is this any different from superstition? Three times now you have failed to answer.


God might be hiding something from you but I have no intention of hiding anything from critical thinking. 

Whether or not you intend to be doing it doesn't matter. You ARE in fact going through those motions (defense mechanisms) in an attempt to shied your faith (assumption) from critical analyses - which is in fact the OPPOSITE of someone who truly cares whether or not their beliefs are actually true.

Some things are subjective, but my spiritual faith in God has been a good result.

Lots of false beliefs have "good results" (for a time). So what. They have lots of bad results as well (especially psychological results on children and the promotion of uncritical thinking [faith], and justifying the diminishing of human liberty). Good or bad results is irrelevant to the question of what is actually true and what is not. Just because you had some feeling of goodness doesn't make your faith true. Again, every religion claims good results.



You say I have beliefs, I say they aren't just imaginations that have no basis in fact and experience, what I know about God is supported by solid examples of intervention so they are anything but the result of being  irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination.  You may as well give up on those charges, they may work in other cases they are useless in discussing my case.

They may be "useless" to you, but that is only because of your strong presupposition, which you are unwilling to analyze. Merely having "experiences" does not make your interpretation of those experiences "fact". Just saying they are facts doesn't make it so. Lots of Muslims claim their experiences with Allah confirm Islam as the only true faith. Are they right?

Once again Wayne, you are practicing confirmation bias (just like the other religions) - plain and simple. It's hard to hear (I know) but it's quite clear.



God is forbidding you to have the evidence you demand.

Prove it Wayne. Just saying so, doesn't make it so. Every religion just says so (like you keep doing) and they claim their god is forbidding YOU from seeing their "truth". FAIL.

Mark 16


I wouldn't bother if I was you.  This is not a court of law, you must weigh, in my case whether my testimony is accurate, and make your decision.  You either call me a liar, or you accept the testimony. 

Here is an absolutely perfect (and crystal clear) example of your willingness to use illogical/irrational fallacious reasoning to try and support your faulty case. The statement above is called the fallacy of False Dichotomy. It is an INVALID argument and fails. You are falsely excluding other possibilities in this dilemma (in this case the fact that you are likely mistaken in your interpretations of your alleged experiences). Please do your homework here Wayne, because your own words are testifying against your own testimony of accuracy. If you are willing to use illogical arguments here (clearly in desperation), where else could you be in error?

If your "foundation" is so solid then you should have no problem scrutinizing your OWN belief system (and presupposition) to it's very core (while being brutally honest with yourself). If you can't/won't do that then you cannot honestly claim that your beliefs are the one and only truth.


Your demand for the kind of evidence that God is denying you is not proof that my testimony is false, it's that an all powerful God can keep anything he wants from you, he doesn't care how much you demand it.

Paraphrasing/semi-quoting your bible again (Matthew 16) does absolutely nothing to help you demonstrate how you know your bible is "the word of God". You haven't shown how you know God is "denying" me anything (let alone shown he even exists). You haven't demonstrated what you are supposed to be demonstrating (as per Mark 16 and John 14). All you've done (in childlike fashion) is claim Santa Claus (Yahweh) is guiding you and that no one can "prove you wrong".

Well Wayne, if you admit that you are unwilling (at any point) to change your interpretation, adjust your perspective, or entertain the possibility of your own interpretive error why should anyone listen to a thing you have to say? When you are so absolutely closed-minded (and shut off from all critical investigation) why should anyone take anything you say seriously? You clearly don't care if you're beliefs are true. You just want to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe.



You are so wrong!  You must know it.  God has proved Himself to me, it is ridiculous for you to declare that he hasn't proven himself to me just because it's not proof to you.  That is arrogant.  Now in time, as you would get to know me and as others have observed that are close to me, you would begin to see that I have exceptionally frequent demonstrations of supernatural occurrences, like that rock in the pocket thing, and you would after a while realise that something abnormal to nature is occurring and too frequently.  I know it must be hard to grasp.  I can tell you one thing, I personally have nothing to do with it.  I have never called up a incident at will, they just happen to me.  It's true.  You will never be able to crack this case with your critical thinking, it is meant to confound.

I wish you would take this paragraph and read it to yourself in the mirror. Listen to yourself (very carefully) and how irrational you are being. Something "abnormal in nature" is NOT a supernatural occurrence! Unlikely/abnormal things happen ALL THE TIME, Wayne. This doesn't (at all) make them supernatural. We live in a big world with lots of things going on (for other religions too!). None of that makes things supernatural. Heck, you can't even demonstrate anything NEAR Mark 16, or the alleged miracles of Christ. That is what you need Wayne - not serendipidous coincidences with a "supernatural" bumper sticker.

 
You'd like to think that I'm not but you are the one blinded by confirmation bias.  I'm going to predict that you are going to dismiss the guidance I got to take the rock to church as confirmation bias and you will be demonstrating confirmation bias of your own that has blinded you from the reality you have decided never to face, and that is that there is a true God and he is the one men describe in the Bible.


HA! Another episode of "Because Wayne said so..."

It seems that you do not know what confirmation bias actually is. See Wayne, I am not the one trying to CONFIRM anything. So I cannot be guilty of trying to CONFIRM what you are trying to. What I have been trying to get you to do is actually think critically, and demonstrate that you truly care whether your beliefs are true (which you have naturally resisted - as so many religious people do). Dismissing bad arguments, irrational/invalid reasoning, and SPIN/rationalization is not bad. It is a GOOD thing. It is one of the things the helps us separate fact from fiction in this life.

So, if you want to validate your beliefs in your Yahweh deity it is easy. Demonstrate (at the very least) the same exact miracles that Jesus supposedly performed. Can you do it?

We are all waiting (willing, ready, and open to changing our minds) - are you?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 01:59:35 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1023 on: February 20, 2013, 04:27:05 AM »
Wayne, did you actually read the article posted earlier? You have asked us to read rather a lot so I hope you did because it is relevant to the discussion.

Here is the link again.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1024 on: February 20, 2013, 06:38:27 AM »

What I just described to you was the leading of the Holy Spirit.
However you have yet to establish that the holy spirit actually exists, so you're working from a false premise.
Remember the nuthouses are full of people who think they're god/jesus, there's one in my home town. Wait! I think his name is Wayne. No! No! It's James!


Where you also failed is in the very first sentences of the article I posted. I.E.
Quote
The Misconception: Your opinions are the result of years of rational, objective analysis.

The Truth: Your opinions are the result of years of paying attention to information which confirmed what you believed while ignoring information which challenged your preconceived notions.
You've assumed that you've given your beliefs/premonitions objective analysis.

Whereas you've simply confirmed that your bible god gives premonitions, so that whats happening to you.

Any other rational reason for your hallucinations has gone right out of the window and nothing is going to change your mind, you're to far gone.
Quote
When the frequency illusion goes from a passive phenomenon to an active pursuit, that’s when you start to experience confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is seeing the world through a filter, thinking selectively. The real trouble begins when confirmation bias distorts your active pursuit of facts.
Boom! boom! You in a nutshell. Literally!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:40:11 AM by bertatberts »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1025 on: February 20, 2013, 08:07:10 AM »
what we are all experiencing here is the reality that God blinds the unbelieving just like the bible says He does.

Wayne, this is a stupid thing to say.  This means god is confounding your efforts, frustrating you and working against the very people who need his help the most.  That is one merciless god you have there.  Who'd want to spend eternity with him? I understand though, it is something religious people say when they fail horribly at convincing people their brand of crazy is the genuine article. "It's not me, it's them"  Whatever makes you feel better, booboo.

All your flailing and fighting about it is just a big freak show and it is so important to you that you spend hours of your time beating your head against the wall.  I guess there must be some satisfaction to you when some hapless person falls into the pit with you.

I know this is born out of frustration.  You have failed to convince us your experiences are legitimate acts of god.  And that is hard for you to accept.  Because to you it seems so obvious and clear. 

But you have to understand how ridiculous you sound to us.  Try this - imagine someone else telling you their spooky stories and all the conclusions they come to sound completely crazy to you.  They are things like "George Bush was the anti-christ" and "Ronald Reagan was our Stalin" and other such things that are 180° from what you believe.  You are not going to just accept that they are lead by the holy spirit simply because they tell you they know it was so.  You are going to think they are full of beans.  Just like we think you are full of beans.  Sorry.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:11:28 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Dante

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1026 on: February 20, 2013, 08:09:56 AM »

Why must he be wrong?  It's very simple; if your god proved himself to you, then it would have been child's play for him, an all-powerful god, to provide you with the evidence you needed to prove yourself to us.

It's also child's play to withold it from you.  Think about that.

Or, your god is imaginary, so there's no possible way for him, or you, to provide any evidence whatsoever.

Odd that it never crosses your mind that since you're the chosen one, you're the only person on the entire planet that has these...interactions shall we call them? Even though you're the only one with these interactions, you find it plausible. A sane person might take into account that it's not normal, even amongst believers, and perhaps seek some sort of psychiatric help.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1027 on: February 20, 2013, 09:47:32 AM »
Not only that, but I'd like to add:  "...And of what possible use are your unique experiences to us?"

I would take it one step further and ask you, Wayne, of what possible use are your unique experiences even to you? Your "Dark Knight premonition" did not help save a single life in Aurora, your "earthquake vision" didn't even prevent you from going back to the cafe where you "saw" the commotion ensue, and your "rock in my pocket" experience, as PP pointed out, merely spared you (or the Sunday school teacher) the minor inconvenience of having to briefly step outside to fetch a stone. Wow, that's quite a powerful god ya got there!

Face it Wayne, the only true purpose your stories have is to confirm your beliefs, because they certainly don't serve any practical function or provide any real help to anyone.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1028 on: February 20, 2013, 10:08:42 AM »
Exactly DumpsterFire, we've been making this point for pages and it still apparently eludes Wayne. Wayne's experiences are of no practical use to anyone. Even if I were inclined to credit his account to a god-agency, so what? What use is any of it?

If this is proof of god, as Wayne keeps asserting, it's proof of an almost powerless god, or of one that doesn't care about it's creations. I can't figure out how Wayne keeps missing that.


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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1029 on: February 20, 2013, 11:00:34 AM »
Wayne If a Muslim has a vision that at zero dark thirty Allah says the US marines are going to kill Bin Laden....and they do,would you dismiss Allah?  A Hindu has a vision of an earthquake and Tsunami a vision from Vishnu,would you dismiss Vishnu?

 Your "stories" mean about as much to us as the Muslim or Hindu's visions mean to you. They are unverifiable and well after the fact of the events,you can remember it just how you want to. As far as you seeing Obama win the election 100% of America must have seen it coming,only Karl Rove on Fox news did not.

 Tell me something from your visions that will happen in the immediate future,you may impress me......not an earthquake as they happen all the time . Something significant and surprising would suffice. Right after that we can get you a job on the psychic friends hotline.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1030 on: February 20, 2013, 11:08:23 AM »
What was emotional about a rock?  Come on jaimehlers. You need my validations to be squishy and emotional but you fail to see how in squishy it was to be lead here.  I had a dream that my leg was amputated......  pretty emotional!  Pretty easy to be fooled!  I am pounding home the very validation the thread asks for, it's just that your rabid confirmation bias has blinded you so much that you reject it out of hand.
The problem isn't the emotions you felt in those specific instances, it's your tendency to believe (assume) that such coincidences are supernatural, your god at work in the world, and thus to seek emotional validation from having that belief further confirmed.  Indeed, you're at the point of taking action to go after the emotional validation you need to further confirm your belief.  But that validation only works if you already believe.  When you tell your stories to someone who does not believe, they aren't inclined to see it as the hand of your god at work, so the interpretation you put on your events doesn't work for them.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
it's just that your rabid confirmation bias has blinded you so much that you reject it out of hand.
Confirmation bias isn't when someone refuses to accept your own explanation, it's when they refuse to accept any alternate explanation and refuse to let any argument or evidence sway them.  If you had the kind of evidence that could satisfy skeptics, we'd be giving your explanation a lot more consideration.  Since you can't (indeed, you've claimed that your god is intentionally withholding it), there's no point in giving any real consideration to your explanations.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
The truth of the matter here is that you can't explain it in natural terms either, though you try and fail miserably.  I'm having no trouble explaining how it happens because I know who makes it happen.
Saying "God did X" is not an explanation, it's a statement (in this case, an opinion).  And the actual fact of the matter is that everything, even what you attribute to your god, has a natural explanation.  Your god didn't magic up that rock you found, or cause it to materialize in your pocket.  You saw it lying on the ground, remembered that your daughter had brought it home, and impulsively picked it up and brought it to church with you.  The only thing that you're actually attributing to your god is your impulse to pick up the rock, and the only reason is because that teacher ended up needing a rock for his lesson.  Frankly, that's not really saying very much, essentially that your god is limited to only things which happen to resemble coincidence.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You seem to have just redefined long shot here.  You are so silly.
Really?  A long shot, when it refers to chance, is something that's not very likely to happen, which is exactly the way I was using it.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I'm pretty sure were not talking about the same thing here, you just can't see it.  Be sure to read the other post today. It completely debunks you here quite deftly.
I did read your other post.  Frankly, your argument in it just amounts to you saying, "I don't really know why I picked up this rock, but I think the Holy Spirit made me do it because I happened to need it later".  It doesn't even debunk what I said, let alone deftly, because you can't actually show any evidence to back up what you're saying.  The only thing you can point to is coincidentally needing it later on, and that just doesn't fly as convincing evidence.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I answered this elsewhere.  But I'm going to absolutely agree one hundred percent on  the last part.  Here's the rub.  It is absolutely complicated just like you described, not simple in execution at all.  It is absolutely fascinating how complex it all is.  You are  right.  You are so so right.  That's why knowing how it happened is so simple, the god of the universe did it.  It is that simple.
It's that simple to say, anyway, but that doesn't actually make it a simple explanation.  Indeed, as I said before, it isn't an explanation at all, it's an opinion.  To say "the god of the universe did it" doesn't explain how it happened, just who you think did it.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
Did you know that a god knows how many times a robin hops on any given day?  He has the hair on your head numbered (even if it is zero.) Placing that rock was a no brainer for Him.
And you know this...how, exactly?  Because this sounds an awful lot like hearsay to me - something you've been told in the past, which you're repeating now, but which you can't base on facts in evidence.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I guess your are right, I must allow you to try, after all, that's what were here for.
Thank you oh so very much for your kindness and consideration, giving me permission to do something I was going to do whether you thought I should or not.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
Some coincidences have natural explanations, It's my job to weed out the natural ones from the ones I'm reporting to you as god orchestrated "episodes".  How am I doing?
Not very well, I'm afraid.  Indeed, you have yet to show us that any of the "god-orchestrated episodes" you've related are actually distinguishable from natural coincidences.  It would sure help if you had some convincing factual evidence to back up what you're saying.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You make a good point, maybe he's helping me improve my typing skills and you guys are the Mavis bacon program assigned to me.  Here's a little secret, sometimes I sound like I'm complaining, but really I'm laughing at all of you.  I'm acting like I'm complaining to make the very valid point that you guys are silly, and really I'm just having a blast letting you know it.  It's all for a good cause, the truth.
You do realize that laughing at the people you're trying to convince doesn't really accomplish anything, right?  Frankly, though, aside from being an instance of bad manners, it doesn't really bother me.  I've had to deal with people who were much ruder and nastier than that.  But for what it's worth, I can't help you with the purpose of your visit - I don't believe you were 'sent' here anymore than I believe I was.  You'll have to take your own lessons from this.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I think we've eliminated all those possibilities, but if you need a little more time I'll be here to help.
Actually, it's entirely possible that you could be mistaken, or delusional, or misled - your faith is no guarantee against any of those.  Well, I'll admit the latter is less likely than the former two, because it predicates something which does the misleading.  But since you're predicating something which is giving you these experiences to begin with, we can't rule it out.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
You just don't know how comfortable I am with the solid evidence I have, but you aren't me, so you'll  just have to try to take my word for it.
Which is entirely the point.  We're not willing to take your word for it, anymore than we'd take the word of someone who claimed he'd invented cold fusion in his garage.  We expect you to back up what you're saying with solid evidence to support it, and so far you haven't.  If you aren't willing or able to provide it, that's your problem, not ours.  We have no obligation whatsoever to simply take you at your word.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
It's also child's play to withold it from you.  Think about that.
Which just so happens to exactly match how it would work out if there was no god to provide such evidence in the first place.  You might want to think about that.

Offline median

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1031 on: February 20, 2013, 11:20:57 AM »


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1032 on: February 20, 2013, 12:13:51 PM »
Wayne, did you actually read the article posted earlier? You have asked us to read rather a lot so I hope you did because it is relevant to the discussion.

Here is the link again.

I read the whole thing and I agree with it..
The stuff it describes has happened to me but I must stress that as valid as it is, it still falls short of explaining away the interventions of God that I report to you.

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He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1033 on: February 20, 2013, 01:44:25 PM »
it still falls short of explaining away the interventions of God that I report to you.

It falls short or it falls short for you?  There is a difference.
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Offline sun_king

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1034 on: February 20, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »
The stuff it describes has happened to me but I must stress that as valid as it is, it still falls short of explaining away the interventions of God that I report to you.

In the same way your descriptions falls way short of explaining why the "interventions" are in fact work of some god?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1035 on: February 20, 2013, 03:27:21 PM »
Wayne and everyone,

Thinking about Wayne's experiences and his stories reminded me of an event when I was just 11 - a long time ago.  I don't claim any literary merit, or indeed anything else, for this story but here it is

Quote
A long time ago, when I was 11 years old I had to go into hospital to be circumcised (in the UK this isn't a standard thing done to babies.) Whilst recovering I and another lad of about the same age came across a wheelchair in a room at the end of the ward and had fun for a while playing in it. We both thought it rather fun and,of course, ward floors were easy to push on. I forgot it completely until just recently.....

Roll on 23 years (about the same time as Wayne's dark Knight story) I found myself at the same hospital, though in outpatients, being diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis and 3 days later, you guessed it, I actually needed a wheelchair, my sole means of getting around ever since.

The above is quite true, factually, but I wonder if Wayne thinks there is more to it. After all, like Wayne's stories it seems that the first event foreshadowed the second - quite accurately it seems. Could some deity have been trying to send me a message at the tender age of 11?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1036 on: February 20, 2013, 04:16:25 PM »
Wayne, if you had been born in India, you would have had exactly the same experience with picking up the rock, and having the other guy need it for his illustration, only you would have said it was the spirit of Brahma guiding you.

And you would have exactly the same amount of evidence as you do for the Holy Spirit, and you would be arguing just as hard with us about the experience a proof of Brahma. Do you agree?

Like most people, I have had many strange experiences, lucky breaks, weird coincidences, narrow escapes, etc. When I was religious, I would have attributed all these events to some god, or to the new age power of the Universe.

I will give just two examples, both far more compelling than imagining people running around a restaurant in an earthquake zone, picking up a rock, and not going to a Batman movie.

True Example #1:

I was being evacuated with appendicitis from an African country. I found myself on a small plane, being flown by two drunken Italian teenagers. It was night and there was a storm. Lighting kept hitting the plane and it was rolling around.

In this country it was illegal to fly at night and the military had instructions to shoot down any unauthorized plane. I heard one of the people on board yell into the radio, "I don't think we are going to make it!" I prayed that the plane would land safely and it did, against all odds.

Question: who did I pray to, and did my prayer land the plane?

True Example #2: Years later, I was traveling on a rattle-trap bus in a different third world country. The radiator on the bus suddenly exploded, severely burning several people with steam and boiling water.

I was not burned because I was sitting in the farthest row in the back, right next to the window. When the explosion happened, I leaped out of the window, and even managed to save an old lady by dragging her out after me. The old lady, praying loudly to Jesus, wandered dazed into the oncoming traffic and I had to run after her and grab her before she was killed. She was about to get hit by a truck while praying to Jesus! If I had left her in the road to be saved by god, wow, what irony! And what a tragic mess to add to the explosion. 

I was an atheist, and I escaped with only a broken toe. Everyone else on the bus was religious. They got hurt and ended up in the hospital, while I managed to limp to my destination relatively unharmed.

Question: Did the Holy Spirit guide me to sit in the one corner of the bus that was not reached by the explosion?

I have had many religious people try to convince me that one god or another was responsible for landing the plane and saving me from the bus explosion. As an atheist, I know that these strange things just happen sometimes, nothing supernatural about it. If praying made life better, bad stuff would only happen in Japan and Scandinavia.

If the plane had disappeared from Africa and magically materialized in Iceland on a soft pile of pink cotton candy surrounded by unicorns, yeah, that would have been supernatural.

If the bus explosion had magically changed from spraying boiling water to shooting out delicious warm popcorn for everyone to snack on, followed by millions of dollars spraying out for all the poor people on board, and then the bus itself became a giant flying air-conditioned Lexus SUV, then yeah, that would have been supernatural.

And that is what a real god would be able to do. Cool, useful, amazingly mind-blowing wonderfulness that would be undisputable evidence of a mighty, benevolent, supernatural presence. At least that is what I would want from a god and what I would do if I was a god. Religious people have such low expectations of their dieties. A rock in a pocket is enough to inspire unwavering devotion.

And instead of useful, amazingly mind-blowing wonderfulness, god gives us tsunamis that wipe out entire villages, babies dead from typhoid epidemics, children sold as sex slaves, farmers getting their limbs blown off by land mines, and rocks in pockets.

This we should be worshipping? Please. Imagine all the good that would be done if everyone did useful things instead of praying and worshipping. As an atheist I try to make the world a better place by actually doing stuff that makes the world a better place.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1037 on: February 20, 2013, 05:46:10 PM »
When you ask forgiveness and take steps to right a wrong, a burden is lifted.

Which one lifts the burden, the asking the forgiveness or righting the wrong?

Quote
The God I serve has lead people in similar ways through the ages

I think that we can agree that, to be correct, you have to say, "I sort of feel sure, without any evidence, that the God, as I imagine him, has lead people in similar ways through the ages."

Quote
and those like Benjamin Franklin have documented it.

This is not true. Benjamin Franklin, and millions of others have never written about your God. Your God is the God you imagine; just as their God was the one they imagined.

Quote
what we are all experiencing here is the reality that God blinds the unbelieving just like the bible says He does.
That is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be true. You would have to show there were a God who could do this.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1038 on: February 20, 2013, 06:26:49 PM »
what we are all experiencing here is the reality that God blinds the unbelieving just like the bible says He does.
I have an alternate explanation for the "blinds the unbelieving"/"hardens hearts" statements in the Bible.  It was not because a god was actually blinding the unbelieving or hardening their hearts, but because believers couldn't accept that someone not so blinded would not believe their stories - exactly as you can't accept that we won't believe your stories, therefore your god must be making us not believe by hiding the evidence.  It's a way for believers to feel better about their failure to spread their beliefs, and a way for them to feel superior to the "poor, blinded unbelievers".  Typical human nature, in other words.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1039 on: February 20, 2013, 06:47:06 PM »
Wayne

Basically, we are leery of your claims, not only because we are atheists, but too, because you are the first person we've heard make such claims. And they seem far-fetched, under any set of circumstances. Let alone religious ones.

God giving you irrelevant information (how in the heck were you supposed to interpret a gas leak in a theatre in 1989 as forewarning of a shooter in a different theatre in a different state in 2012? Could Columbo have done that? Monk?) And the 007 stuff. Does that mean that, in 2023, when a guy named James Smith shoots a guy named Tom Bond, you will interpret those decade old coincidences as a warning from god that it would happen. Even if it happens in Alabama? And even though you've never met either of them?

If I'm going to get all excited about premonitions, it is going to be because they are relevant. Not because they are loosely tied to life on earth. We need more, and the anecdotes need to come to a stop. We've heard enough of them. We want to know more about the why's of the whole thing.

In other words, what do you think your god is trying to accomplish by occasionally giving you coincidences that don't relate to your life in any meaningful way?


Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1040 on: February 21, 2013, 01:12:21 AM »
Quote from: WayneHarropson
The truth of the matter here is that you can't explain it in natural terms either, though you try and fail miserably.  I'm having no trouble explaining how it happens because I know who makes it happen.

Saying "God did X" is not an explanation, it's a statement (in this case, an opinion).

How about testamony?

The only thing that you're actually attributing to your god is your impulse to pick up the rock, and the only reason is because that teacher ended up needing a rock for his lesson.  Frankly, that's not really saying very much, essentially that your god is limited to only things which happen to resemble coincidence.

It sounds like you are conceding that the Holy Spirit instructed me, but because he didn't move a mountain you get to weasle your argument into a God of diminished capacity.  That's a step in the right direction, now just think of this.  It just could be that God likes to use the most subtle of instructions just like a really accomplished equestrian is able to direct a well trained horse with nothing more than silk threads for reins.  The horse and the rider are so in tune with each other that it gets close to the point that it would appear to the outside observer that the rider is using telepathy to direct the horse.... though he's not really.  Of course, that's not the best example because in this case telepathy might describe what is happening.

Men work really hard down here to accomplish the same kind of things, like with TV remotes.  Nobody has to get up and go crank the station knob like in he beginning, because being in God's image we like to create things, easier things.  If you could demonstrate to Issac Newton a TV with remote control do you think he would object and say "that's not very impressive, I want to see a physical hand appear in front of the TV and turn the channel and then I will believe in what has been demonstrated." 

So you are getting close.

I deleted my quote here but it was regarding God numbering the hairs on your head:
And you know this...how, exactly?  Because this sounds an awful lot like hearsay to me - something you've been told in the past, which you're repeating now, but which you can't base on facts in evidence.

We're getting into that circular rebuttal.  Facts and evidence work n some things to your satisfaction but those who wish to know God must submit to his ways, which are pretty exclusive.  I think He likes it that way.

I don't believe you were 'sent' here anymore than I believe I was.  You'll have to take your own lessons from this.
 

I am getting a bit cocky as PP said it.  If you had experienced all that I have, and then came to a site where a number of people accused you of having mental disorders, and few others here correct or object to that treatment, you might have a little fun with your persecutors from your confident position.  I was sent here, and have offered you the testamony of that in the form of a dream. There is no more reason for you to believe that testamony any more than you believe any of the other episodes I have described (truthfully) to you.  However, If along the way, it should ever dawn on you that it just could be that something in the universe is smarter than you, something in the universe that could bring into being your physical existence, and your ability to reason, then it just might dawn on you that that thing is capable of leaving out a couple of puzzle pieces in your understanding, and ask you to simply have faith in Its existence.  It just might dawn on you, and until it has, forgive me if I have a little fun.  It's not meant to hurt you, just to make you think outside your (sand) box.

Quote from: WayneHarropson
I think we've eliminated all those possibilities, but if you need a little more time I'll be here to help.

Actually, it's entirely possible that you could be mistaken, or delusional, or misled - your faith is no guarantee against any of those.  Well, I'll admit the latter is less likely than the former two, because it predicates something which does the misleading.  But since you're predicating something which is giving you these experiences to begin with, we can't rule it out.
 

Ok, now, see how much closer you are getting?  At least I could be misled by a supernatural power.  In that case you might just want to stick around and see how it all turns out for me when I discover I've been tricked by God.  Stay tuned to the atheist channel and laugh at  Wayne when God pulls the rug.  Only on the Atheist channel.

I have more episodes to report, and the following is not one that I'm saying proves anything, but is I think interesting.  I walk and excersize in a mile square park 3 to 5 days a week and pass by a lot of other regulars while there.  I often see one couple at or near the same location and we often chat small talk.  Two days before the asteroid and meteorite incident and before my awareness of the asteroid pass pending, (I don't watch a lot of news) in the middle of doing pull ups I saw a meteorite and it gave me an adrenelin surge that inspired me to do four more pull ups than I thought I was capable.  I dropped off the bars just as the couple walked by and I told them about it.  I first called it an asteroid, and then corrected myself before they could get too far away by calling out: "Not an asteroid, a meteorite!" 

The next day that I walked, the day of the serious events, I had yet to hear any news and when I passed by the couple that morning, they were excited to tell me to be sure and watch TV because of what had just happened in Russia.  They told me of the destruction and everything and I couldn't wait to get back home to see it all.

So I got the first report of these astrological events from the very people who I had just reported my sighting (using both names) of a meteorite. I will not insist on this containing any meaning that I was being given a preview like a prophecy without knowing it as in my other examples, but I can tell you that it was the first meteorite I have ever seen in the couple of years of diligent pre dawn treks around the park.

One explanation could have been that we were in the middle of a meteorite shower that increased the probablility of such sightings.  No shower was predicted however. Shooting stars are not unusual, and I know that but here's a little more speculation from my overactive imagination that needs to be in the hopper.

That couple and I only recently discussed the political issues that somewhat set me apart...prophecy wise.  The prior time that I had seen them they had just returned the two DVD's that I had given them with samples of what I had written inluding Obama is Idi Amin. Their reactions were somewhat typical of liberals, in that they, from my perspective, are working out their due diligence to remain in denial. 

Now, Imagine for a moment, a guy who just gave you a couple of DVDs and some whacky 20 year old prophetic information that he personally recieved and the very next time you see the crazy guy he drops off some monkey bars and says he just saw an asteroid,... no, a meteorite.  You wake up two days later to reports an astounding meteorite explosion with widespread damage and injury, and to a totally unrelated near pass of an asteroid.  You then go on your walk and tell the guy on the monkey bars  something that he hadn't yet heard about, but a guy that, the last time you saw him reported having seen an asteroid...  no a meteorite. 
The prophetic guy, yeah that guy. So, after a couple of years of saying no more than Hi to this couple, in the last four times I've seen them, I gave them the info, they returned the info and kindly dismissed it, then I tell them of asteroids and meteorites, and then they tell me about meteorites and asteroids.  It's another one of those complicated things that you just can't pass off as...well... normal.

Don't look at me, I'm just the reporter.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1041 on: February 21, 2013, 01:14:10 AM »
I'll do more catching up tomorrow if you can please wait.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1042 on: February 21, 2013, 03:03:45 AM »
I would just about start drinking beer as something to do while waiting for jaimehlers  to respond to Wayne's last long post, where he said, of jaimehlers, "It sounds like you are conceding that the Holy Spirit instructed me..." I'll settle for putting my feet up on the desk and munching on popcorn in the meantime, but this should be good.

Wayne, right now I am especially happy that I am not you.

You are now imagining progress here just as you imagine most everything else you argue for here.

Meteorite-wise, you might want to know that earth's atmosphere gets hit by up to 15,000 tons of meteorites a year, most the size of a pea or smaller (yes, you can still see those even though they are tiny). That translates into millions a day. Its kind of hard to imagine that seeing one would qualify as a message from your sky daddy, because even we atheists, who have blinded ourselves as you put it, see them. I see them all the time here in Montana.

By the way, the two objects weren't related other than the fact that they were both rocks in space. And the one that hit us was an asteroid. Until its status changed as it burned up and exploded in the atmosphere. And guess what. Their showing up within a few hours of each other was... wait for it... a coincidence!

Plus I have to wonder Wayne. If, by your own admission, you don't pay any attention to the news, how do you judge the quality of the Idi Amin/Obama comparison you keep touting? That is, how do you match it up with what you know about Obama from other sources? And Amin from other sources? I see such stories as bull because I, like, you know, read news sites on a regular basis, and newspapers, and news magazines. If you are ignorant of what is going on in the world because you don't pay attention to the news, why are you so sure that Obama is so terrible? I don't see how you can be both ignorant and knowledgable at the same time.

You probably haven't even heard that the prisoners at Guantanamo, now that most of them have been there for ten years, are now eligible for the GI bill!

Just kidding. But a congressman didn't know the difference between humor and reality and thought that that story was real and asked Hagel about it in a hearing. That's what happens when one is ignorant. Don't be that guy.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #1043 on: February 21, 2013, 08:29:08 AM »
So I got the first report of these astrological events...

bold mine.  I think you mean astronomical.

astrological: relating to the study of how the stars and planets move and how they might influence people's characters and lives
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/astrological
This is the zodiac and fortune telling.

astronomical: relating to the scientific study of the stars and planets
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/astronomical
This is science.

Their reactions were somewhat typical of liberals, in that they, from my perspective, are working out their due diligence to remain in denial. 

Or you are just a crank and no one, liberal, conservative or otherwise, should take you seriously.

It's another one of those complicated things that you just can't pass off as...well... normal.

Something in this story is not normal.  That is for sure.
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