Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 62007 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5236
  • Darwins +598/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #957 on: February 15, 2013, 02:19:59 PM »
The problem, junebug, is that you seem to expect people here to look for answers from God because you have no way to back up what you say, and that makes no sense, especially in light of the topic, "please validate your belief in your god".  That means to provide support to what you're saying.  Yet, according to you, you can't provide that support.  You can't validate your belief in your god to us.

If you can't do that, then please say as much.  If you can, then please start doing so.  That'll do as much as anything to defuse the hostility from other members.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #958 on: February 15, 2013, 02:23:29 PM »
sorry about the bad quotes working on it.

there is no need for the hostility. I am not here but to share my personal experiences. You don't have to believe them I am just sharing. You have asked me for proof and I am offering it to you by reliving some dark moments in my life.  Each moment brought me closer to God.  I am trying to say if you want proof you have to need Him and He will show Himself to you by seeing you through when you think you have no strength left. I hope you don't need Him because that would mean you are suffering and I don't wish that on anyone.

no i don't have a strand of His hair or a piece of His garment, all I have is my own story which i am happy to share if it brings 1 person in this forum closer to God.

Quotes are easy, once you get the hang of it. I would suggest you use the "Preview" option before posting, this would allow you to see how it would look like when posted and you can keep making changes till you get it right.

I would like to know how to see him. I am not in any suffering or any sort of distress (calling him when in need is kind of lame!), just want to see him and have a talk. Would it be possible? By nature, I don't believe in things before I see/experience them or have enough accessible evidence to know its there. So the process would be See-->Believe, not the other way around.

I have accessed websites that have millions of hits and yet had a slice of time for me too. This means servicing millions of requests is something humans have achieved. Surely god, in his omnipotence, wont be hard pressed for time. Tell me the steps to meet him.

PS: You should take a look at the atheists and agnostics who help others. You can start with Bill Gates....

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11193
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #959 on: February 15, 2013, 02:30:19 PM »
Quotes are easy, once you get the hang of it. I would suggest you use the "Preview" option before posting, this would allow you to see how it would look like when posted and you can keep making changes till you get it right.

I just want to point out that some letters may appear correctly on the preview but be replaced with question marks ("?") after posting. Usually it's letters that aren't in the English alphabet.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #960 on: February 15, 2013, 02:33:10 PM »
it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is.  there are 100's of thousands of people being fed because of God's love. the good in the world I mentioned earlier. 
I couldn't let this go unaddressed. Atheists have to endure stuff lie this a lot, saying that atheists don't do much in the way of charity. And every time I hear this, I can't help but to say, ever heard of Bill Gates? You know, the richest guy ever? Or Warren Buffet, one of the next richest guys ever? Neither of them believe in God. Do you have ANY idea how much charitable work they fund? Do you realize that in India, where there are over a billion people, they have not had a single new case of polio in 2 years? Do you now why that is? Because Bill Gates has made it one of his life's goals to eradicate polio, from everywhere, forever. The guy is so rich that pretty much anything he wants to see happen he can make a reality. He's contributed over $1.5 billion just to this single cause, and it is making a huge difference. In fact, the Gates foundation is the largest transparent charitable organization in the world. It has been his full time job since 2000. You can go to the Gates foundation website and look up exactly where the money goes, and what it supports. It's not like giving money to a church, who then spends it paying off legal fees and judgements. It's not like missionaries that go to places that are war torn, impoverished, starvation filled places (which are often this way because of religion in the first place) and hand out food baskets with Bibles in it, and telling people that their suffering is God's gift, and that they should embrace Jesus. I think that is positively wicked, taking advantage of desperate and hopeless people by giving them a false sense of hope instead of actually doing anything to relieve the root causes of those problems.

So yeah, while religious people go around saying that condoms cause AIDS but hey! here's a fruit basket compliments of the LORD, a non religious person like Bill Gates dedicates his life to destroying a disease that cripples and kills children. He also has made it a mission to develop agriculture in impoverished, underdeveloped nations so that people get more bang for their buck. They will be taught to fish, or farm in this case, just like a certain Jewish hippie in some old book said we should do. Read about their agricultural program here, and tell me how religious people are doing better than non religious in terms of dealing with starvation. With of the money given by religious people that they think is going to charity, they are making NOTHING like the difference that programs like the one above make. The foundation also makes it a priority along with this to promote and ensure equal opportunities and rights for women, which is something no religion except Sikh has EVER stood for, and most still don't to this day, and they certainly don't seem to be doing much to promote women's rights, ever here in America. Nuns who support women's rights and social justice and actually making a difference have been ostracized by the elderly virgins who sit in the Vatican.

And the shining example of charity that religious people often turn to on their side is dear old Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa who took money from the Duvalier dictatorship in Haiti, money fleeced from the already starving and desperate Haitians, and used to build convents bearing her name to train a group of servile, ignorant, credulous nuns in the order bearing her name..... gee what a freaking humble individual! Telling dying children whom she refuses to take to a hospital even though she is a millionaire, that their pain and suffering is the good lord Jesus kissing them, and that their suffering helps to bring her closer to God. Can you BELIEVE this!?! When asked by an Assistant District Attorney to return the (again stolen) money she received from Charles Keating, she never even responded. Jesus, what a paragon of virtue and saintliness.

Please theists,  for the love of......bacon, stop telling us about how freaking great you think religious charity is, and how atheists don't do anything charitable, when just ONE unbeliever can make more of a difference than BILLIONS of theists.

EDIT/ADDENDUM:
I can't believe I forgot to point this out, but Mr. Gates does of all this without any promise of eternal reward for himself. Given that he is literally one of the most powerful people on earth with an unbelievable amount of disposal income, he could opt to do something really selfish, you know, like build a megachurch for himself and go on TV and ask credulous people to give him more money because his 95 foot yacht isn't big enough for all of his prostitutes, or build his own spaceship, or any number of pointless squandering things. But no, he decides to make a huge difference in the world, because making sure that less people are diseased, less people malnourished, less people living in poverty are all good things for their own sake and what we should try to do for our fellow human beings, and when you have like $60 billion, you can do an incredible amount of good. He doesn't expect nodding approval from Big Brother for doing so, nor hope for it, and his efforts are far more organized and efficient and effective than a rabble of orcs like Scientologists or Mormons handing out Books of Mormon and checking Thetan levels. And all without an expectation that the Big Cheese will reward them.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 04:20:27 PM by kaziglu bey »
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Philosopher_at_large

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +18/-2
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #961 on: February 15, 2013, 02:36:15 PM »
I assume you mean the Universe by Cosmos, Phil-at-L. In that case we know that about 13.5 billion years ago it was a tiny dense ball and that it expanded to what we see today on its own. We don't know if it just burst into life or if it had shrunk from a previously existing universe. What we are certain of, however, is the the universe is not static. Thus it does not need any external force to sustain it.

For the record, how do you suppose a non-material 'thing' might interact with matter?

I don't mean that. there is no reason to think that ours is the only universe that exists and in order to avoid beggin the question, I assume that it is not. I also assume that the cosmos as a whole has always existed and did not come into being.

To your second point, I don't understand what you mean by "the universe is not static", but we have no such certainty that the universe (even our own) requires nothing to preserve it in being. In fact it sounded to me like you were arguing that it is "self preserving" not that it required no preservation.

To your third, I don't think that (for lack of a better word) "Creation" would 'be' the act of a non material thing interacting with matter, but of the exnhilation of matter. 
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2256
  • Darwins +76/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #962 on: February 15, 2013, 02:51:04 PM »
all I have is my own story which i am happy to share if it brings 1 person in this forum closer to God.

Again, which god?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jynnan tonnix

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1790
  • Darwins +93/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #963 on: February 15, 2013, 03:05:09 PM »
sorry about the bad quotes working on it.

there is no need for the hostility. I am not here but to share my personal experiences. You don't have to believe them I am just sharing. You have asked me for proof and I am offering it to you by reliving some dark moments in my life.  Each moment brought me closer to God.  I am trying to say if you want proof you have to need Him and He will show Himself to you by seeing you through when you think you have no strength left. I hope you don't need Him because that would mean you are suffering and I don't wish that on anyone.

no i don't have a strand of His hair or a piece of His garment, all I have is my own story which i am happy to share if it brings 1 person in this forum closer to God.

Here's the thing, though, Junebug.

You have really offered nothing thus far but some very vague, very subjective rhetoric. If you have a story which you feel offers evidence, by all means tell it...but don't be surprised if it is not as compelling to others here as it is to you.
 
It seems as though you were probably brought up Christian, but couldn't deal with the fear and frustration of knowing that your sexual orientation was so much at odds with what you were taught growing up. You (rightly) came to the conclusion that a god as supposedly loving as the one you had grown up believing in would not be one to cast one of his children into everlasting torment for loving the wrong person. You couldn't rationalize it within Christianity, yet the idea of walking away from faith was also terrifying.

So you started reading various books and maybe visiting websites and forums in search of an alternate understanding of god. You cherry-picked and stitched together a version of a god which not-so-coincidentally shared your values. And such was the relief of being able to believe and trust in a deity after having felt abandoned by the one you were raised with, you not-so-coincidentally experienced what must have felt like an overwhelming feeling of love and acceptance in return.

These things are normal. And if they bring you comfort, then go ahead and believe, but as I've said, be advised that for those who do not believe, your stories may not be compelling.

Another thing you have to understand here is that many people on this forum are ex-Christians who also went through the trauma of losing their faith. Many kept seeking, sometimes desperately, for ways to hold onto that sense of being loved and protected. Many went through periods of embracing other faiths, or clinging to Universalist or deist philosophies. They did not just dust the notion of god off like a bad habit and move on. They searched. Where was god for them?

Oh, and another question...Since you say you don't subscribe to the Christian faith, what are your views on salvation? Do you believe in an afterlife? Heaven? What must we, in your understanding, do to get there? Are good works enough? Are they necessary? Is faith necessary? Repentance? If god loves all of us, does he send anyone to hell? Because if it doesn't particularly matter what you believe, then what, aside from warm fuzzies, is the practical use of god being there? Many of us do just fine without the warm fuzzies from an intangible being and prefer to get them from those important to us in this earthly life. I'd appreciate hearing some of your views on these subjects

edited a couple of times because I kept thinking of things to add.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:21:24 PM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3082
  • Darwins +280/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #964 on: February 15, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »
it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is.

(At this point, Springy G wanders in with Her Clue-By-Four™ and leans it up against the desk.  She glowers at Junebug and shakes Her head.)

Junebug, I find the above-quoted statement of yours to be offensive in the extreme.  Yes, there are atheists who are out there in the trenches, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.

We're the quiet ones who give to the local Hospitals through payroll deduction, rather than dumping a big fat cheque or a $100 bill into the collection plate at church where everyone can see it.

We're the ones anonymously dropping off carloads of good-quality used goods at local thrift shops, rather than trying to sell some beat-up Praying Hands plaque and some poop-stained baby jumpers at a rummage sale.

We're the ones who bite our tongues and smile when the sweet little old lady next door says "God bless you" after we shoveled and sanded her front walk.

(The Goddess of the Vernal Equinox, punctuation, chocolate and Random Equipment Malfunctions settles back in Her chair and pats the Clue-By-Four™.)  Consider yourself duly Told.  Next unsupported ex rectum slander of atheists, and I come in a-swingin'.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6749
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #965 on: February 15, 2013, 04:13:10 PM »
Quote

How do you think this "love" is manifested. Or is it manifested. The huge disparity in indidual experience on this planet does not seem to show a pattern that one could say is a god love. I, for instance, was not shot while in the first grade by a crazed gunman. Others were. Are both of those outcomes examples of your gods love, or is his love a part-time hobby?

His love is manifested every second of every hour with every beat of my heart His love is manifested through us and His Holy Spirit.

If his love lacks a useful consistency, then he's not very good at it, is he?

I, on the other hand, am at least compassionate. Because I'm going to give you the link to the tutorial we have that will help you learn how to properly quote others on this site. It makes the conversations go much smoother when quotes are used properly. And it makes people appreciate you more  :).

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6949
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #966 on: February 15, 2013, 05:57:54 PM »
Junebug, it took me a while to learn how to use the quote function and I still don't always do it right. So, not to worry. At least you are trying, which is more than some people do.

My first objection is the idea that god does not need to save the starving and troubled because people should do that. Didn't you just tell us that god intervened in your life when you were in trouble? Why didn't you have to wait for another human to help you? Why are you so special as to get all-powerful god's direct one-on-one love and attention but someone in Haiti or Sudan has to wait for god to act through a puny human being?

I also have to take issue with the idea that atheists don't help other people. I have spent most of my adult life working in third world countries in development programs, as a social worker in the US and as a college professor at an institution that serves mainly working class students.

I give away a lot of my salary helping to support several poor families overseas, have helped kids with money to stay in school, helped folks buy a house, paid hospital bills. And I regularly help immigrants, regardless of status, get their start in the US.  Plus I donate to several charities that work with poor people, and some that help animals. 

Now, I ask you, what would I be doing differently if I believed in a god?  :?

Given that I don't think there are any gods, really, I could argue that everyone who helps other people is actually an atheist! Some people just think they are helping others because of supernatural beings who will punish or reward them. But they waste time and money praying or trying to make other people change their religions when they should be helping.

The rest of us are helping others because we have been lucky and think it is the right thing to do.  :D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline bertatberts

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1459
  • Darwins +55/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Humanists. Not perfect. Not forgiven. Responsible.
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #967 on: February 15, 2013, 06:41:43 PM »
June:
Just a few charitable atheist organizations.

The main atheists charities being Médecins Sans Frontières,  Médecins du Monde and Aide médicale internationale Which I think you will find are in every other war-torn or famine ravaged country in the world.
And theres.
Amnesty international
Center for Victims of Torture
Human Rights First (formerly Lawyers Committee for Human Rights)
Human Rights Watch
Gifts in Kind International
Action Against Hunger – USA
Food Bank for New York City (formerly Food for Survival)
Reading is Fundamental
Population Action International
Big Brothers/Big Sisters of America – N.O.
Homes For Our Troops
Sunshine Foundation
Compassion & Choices
National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression (NARSAD)
Mental Health America (formerly National Mental Health Association)
American Foundation for Suicide Prevention
Population Connection
TAC
Plan USA
Madre
Action-aid
I R Teams
Americares
Doctorswithoutborders
PIH
Direct Relief

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities
http://www.charitywatch.org//toprated.html#enviro
http://coreysviews.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/list-of-atheist-charities/
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4702
  • Darwins +106/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #968 on: February 15, 2013, 07:35:44 PM »
So your God is SPAG (self projection as God) and he will do whatever YOU want him to do and will be there when YOU need him.....Fuck the starving Junebug has God's ear now

it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is.  there are 100's of thousands of people being fed because of God's love. the good in the world I mentioned earlier. 

you don't have a clue about me 12 monkeys God is not self projected but self experienced.  i just find you angry. yea i guess it would be nice to have a father that took care of everything and expected nothing in return, but then what does that leave for us. Mankind has no responsibility for each other?  my parents always made me clean up after myself, so why should we be any different as children of a powerful father?  would you be proud of your children if you did every thing for them?  We would be totally dependant on God and unable to think or do anything for ourselves.
Care to tell me why and how he is there in your "darkest" time,but not someone who is truly helpless,like a starving parent-less child?

 Please explain why he would be there to help you when you need it,but the truly helpless he leaves to die?

 Self projection is the same as self experienced.....it is truly interpreted by you and only you,he can never do wrong or never let you down. This last statement leaves me puzzled,because you obviously state that God is there to help YOU when you need it,but that you don't depend on God for anything. What is the difference between you when you need his help in dark times and the dying child calling out to him(God) with his dying breath?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12537
  • Darwins +300/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #969 on: February 15, 2013, 11:38:57 PM »
Junebug, you seem to have misinterpreted jaimehlers's advice about quoting, below:

junebug:  First off, the way to quote someone is to type [ quote] and [ /quote] around someone's text.  Note that the initial space should be removed when you actually do this.  It will make it much easier to tell which words are yours and which are someone else's.

When he says to type "[ quote ]", he doesn't mean to put your words between the brackets.  He means you should literally put the word "quote" in there, without spaces.  Your words go between that tag, and the one that says "[/ quote ]" - also without spaces.

Sometimes the first quote-tag will have other stuff in it, like in my quote of jaimehlers above:
[ quote author=jaimehlers link=topic=23483.msg545093#msg545093 date=1360948661 ]
(again, I added a space at each end so that the forum wouldn't mistake this as an actual quote)

But you can remove the "author=jaimehlers link=topic=23483.msg545093#msg545093 date=1360948661" part, along with the spaces, and it will function exactly the same.  Here is a simple quote:

Quote
This is a simple quote.

This is the text I used to do it, in code-mode so that you can actually see it:

Code: [Select]
[quote]This is a simple quote.[/quote]
I hope this helps.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6207
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #970 on: February 16, 2013, 12:29:41 PM »
Ah well - like I said, I wasn't expecting any of my points to actually be addressed.  Bye, Wayne.  Just one quick clarification, as I wouldn't want to leave you with the wrong idea about me.

.....I don't expect that you have convinced yourself that I'm all wrong.  You haven't convinced yourself that there was absolutely no meaning in the earthquake, .....  You do have to be honest with yourself though.....I'll take that as an admission that you are a believer.....

In order there....I am positive you are wrong: I am positive there was no meaning: these are entirely honest answers: I do not believe in and god or gods.  But I quite understand why you need to believe I do.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2793
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #971 on: February 16, 2013, 12:48:59 PM »
Ah well - like I said, I wasn't expecting any of my points to actually be addressed.  Bye, Wayne.  Just one quick clarification, as I wouldn't want to leave you with the wrong idea about me.

.....I don't expect that you have convinced yourself that I'm all wrong.  You haven't convinced yourself that there was absolutely no meaning in the earthquake, .....  You do have to be honest with yourself though.....I'll take that as an admission that you are a believer.....

In order there....I am positive you are wrong: I am positive there was no meaning: these are entirely honest answers: I do not believe in and god or gods.  But I quite understand why you need to believe I do.

I'm with you there - I an convinced that the so-called premonitions are simply the result of coincidence. Really, there is no other choice since the later events to which the earlier ones are linked are not identifiable until after the event. Even then its a matter of cherry picking which bits of the earlier event match the later one.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12681
  • Darwins +708/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #972 on: February 16, 2013, 10:07:20 PM »
I think you did not read carefully I am not a xian

Whom are you addressing?  I got your meaning.  The thing is, the god you believe is rooted in your culture.  If you grew up in the US, and I (perhaps wrongly) assume you have, then the god you believe is rooted in xianity.  So while you may not strictly believe all the hocus pocus associated with xianity, your understanding of god is from a xian perspective.


I am just a person who has lived through a lot of grief and  God helped me through all of them.

You keep saying things like this without explaining exactly what you mean.  Exactly how did god get you through it? What did god do?

It is difficult for religious people to come here and understand the idea of evidence or what is convincing to us.  Perhaps because so much of what they do in church involves reciting slogans uncritically or emotional expression they confuse earnestness with truth or evidence.  So please don't be discouraged.   It is hard, but stick with it.

I did not magically lift myself up from despair.  There was an undeniable Love that surrounded me and gave me comfort when I was so close to the edge. Where did that Love come from there was no one else around.

I don't think it was magical either. It was psychological.  But I do think you did it, not any gods.  The love you felt was your own love for an imaginary person.

I say I would bet my life on it because I am that certain that God exists.

Certainty is a feeling, an emotion, like happy or cranky.  It is a feeling that gets in the way of people learning new things, especially when they believe things that are not real.  If I said, "I'd bet my life the moon was made of cheese, because I am certain it is," well then, I would be mistaken, my certitude not withstanding. 

I don't need to see Him to know He is there.

I still don't understand how you think you know.

I believe Webster

The dictionary guy?[1] That may be fine for casual conversation.  But we are talking philosophy here.  Metaphysics.  The Objective Truth About the Universe.  Good and evil are just labels which are relative to those who apply them.  I ask again, is it good or evil when a lion kills a young gazelle?  Try thinking about it from the perspective of the lion and then, the gazelle.  Are your answers different depending which animal from which you make your consideration?

I would describe my relationship as this; unconditional love.

That doesn't explain it.  We're not on the same page here.  You see, I have a relationship with my wife.  It entails interaction.  I talk to her, she talks to me.  I do nice things for her, she does nice things for me.  We relate.  I've tried to have a relationship with god, but I found it to be an unceasingly one sided affair.  So, when I ask you to describe your relationship, I am looking for interaction.  You talk to god, does god talk back? And I don't mean weird coincidences or ambiguous omens.

Unlike the xians doctrine God does love us no matter what we do.  Whether we are gay, black, whores, or whore mongers the love is there.Whether your atheist, pentacostal, baptist, buddhist, pagean, it just don't matter,

Great leapin' jesus, I'd hope that if there was a god it wouldn't have unconditional love.  Otherwise god would love the mao tsedongs, the joe stalins and the rick santorums of the world.  And that would be unjust.  What kind of uncritical, undiscriminating god do you believe in? 

the love is there.

Where?  Where is the love?  Love may be a feeling, but it cannot be transmitted psychically.  If it were, then people would not be surprised when their spouse tells them they don't love them anymore.  You have to actually do things to make someone understand you love them.  When you say you feel love from other people, that is just in your head.  It is love you feel for them, not vice versa.  In order for you to know they love you, they have to actually interact with you, do nice things for you.  They have to remember your birthday, help you move, bring you soup and magazines when you are sick, change a tire for you, etc.  What's god done for you? 


Seems to me your on one [spiritual journey] right now.

That's rather too vague to be useful to me.

btw, there is a link in my sig that will take you to the tutorial for quoting.  Say "there's no joy like quoting" aloud three times, then click the link.  Or, just click the link.  It works either way.
 1. by the way, his peers didn't think much of him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster#Federalist_editor
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #973 on: February 17, 2013, 07:48:07 AM »
[ quote ]Please theists,  for the love of......bacon, stop telling us about how freaking great you think religious charity is, and how atheists don't do anything charitable, when just ONE unbeliever can make more of a difference than BILLIONS of theists.[/quote]

sorry i shouldn't have been offensive, i should've checked the facts before shootin off my mouth.

i was replying to 12 monkeys comment about starving people.  And just wanted 12 to know there were people out there feeding the hungry because they believe through their faith they should and that is how God's love is manifested on earth through us.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #974 on: February 17, 2013, 08:00:15 AM »

Quote
Junebug, I find the above-quoted statement of yours to be offensive in the extreme.  Yes, there are atheists who are out there in the trenches, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.

sorry astraja, 12 hit a nerve, I don't believe God is responsible for hunger or poor.  He gave us every thing we need on this planet, mankind is responsible for not sharing it.  So if poverty angers you or anything mankind does to one another it is not God you should be angry with.


i'm quoting!!! yes!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #975 on: February 17, 2013, 08:07:01 AM »


Quote
Again, which god?

the God/Gods that created us.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11193
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #976 on: February 17, 2013, 08:10:59 AM »
the God/Gods that created us.

Evidence that we were created by a god?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #977 on: February 17, 2013, 08:32:12 AM »



Quote
It seems as though you were probably brought up Christian, but couldn't deal with the fear and frustration of knowing that your sexual orientation was so much at odds with what you were taught growing up. You (rightly) came to the conclusion that a god as supposedly loving as the one you had grown up believing in would not be one to cast one of his children into everlasting torment for loving the wrong person. You couldn't rationalize it within Christianity, yet the idea of walking away from faith was also terrifying.

So you started reading various books and maybe visiting websites and forums in search of an alternate understanding of god. You cherry-picked and stitched together a version of a god which not-so-coincidentally shared your values. And such was the relief of being able to believe and trust in a deity after having felt abandoned by the one you were raised with, you not-so-coincidentally experienced what must have felt like an overwhelming feeling of love and acceptance in return.

These things are normal. And if they bring you comfort, then go ahead and believe, but as I've said, be advised that for those who do not believe, your stories may not be compelling.

You have half way right, I'm impressed with your insight. I just need to fill in some blanks for you to see the Big picture. Which I plan on doing just not this reply.

Quote
Another thing you have to understand here is that many people on this forum are ex-Christians who also went through the trauma of losing their faith. Many kept seeking, sometimes desperately, for ways to hold onto that sense of being loved and protected. Many went through periods of embracing other faiths, or clinging to Universalist or deist philosophies. They did not just dust the notion of god off like a bad habit and move on. They searched. Where was god for them?

I'm sure He was right there, they chose to leave Him rather than searching for a better answer. 

Quote
Oh, and another question...Since you say you don't subscribe to the Christian faith, what are your views on salvation? Do you believe in an afterlife? Heaven? What must we, in your understanding, do to get there? Are good works enough? Are they necessary? Is faith necessary? Repentance? If god loves all of us, does he send anyone to hell? Because if it doesn't particularly matter what you believe, then what, aside from warm fuzzies, is the practical use of god being there? Many of us do just fine without the warm fuzzies from an intangible being and prefer to get them from those important to us in this earthly life. I'd appreciate hearing some of your views on these subjects

salvation-born with it.
afterlife-looking forward to it!
good works-welcomed I'm sure good works and a kind heart are a requirement.
Hell-scary place if it's real, God is love so i don't even know if Hitler deserves that kind of punishment. I have to believe the punishment fits the crime and vice versa with good works. It's the only thing that really makes sense.
warm fuzzies-God created us to take care of our practical needs, God supplies our spiritual health.

I will be posting my story in a seperate post I hope it will touch your heart.


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #978 on: February 17, 2013, 10:03:58 AM »
My Story,

  I was raised in a amen hallelujah baptist church.  I was molested by a member at the tender age of 7/8 years old.  I witnessed gossip hurt my mother, and a lot of hypocrisy. By the time my parents divorced at 13 I was really starting to doubt God's love. I was also a victim of sex abuse by my mothers new boyfriend.  I thought, where is God, why don't He protect me from these bad things.  So I became atheist my self for many years. As an atheist I could never make sense out of evolution. All the tiny details it takes to make life here on earth possible, it just didn't add up so I got to thinking maybe there is a Creator and I have just been misinformed of His characteristics.  So there I started studying learning all I could on the subject and things started to make sense. Like the idea of more than one God.  I have a feeling there is, nope can't prove it, like I said it's a thought, but the harder I looked the more I found. Then in 2002 my brother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. I was by his side with my mother as his life slipped away, my brother molested my little boy when He was a toddler and we were at a prison hospital.  I had learned about forgiveness in my studies but never quite understood the true importance of it until this experience in my life. Forgiveness to my Mother for letting me down when I needed her the most, 13 being raped by her boyfriend, I told on him and it got me took away from my mom, but she didn't believe what was happening, so I had to forgive her, forgiveness to my brother for what he had done to my son.  I know a lot of people think I should hate him til I die but that only hurts me.  The healing that began between my parents and I was well worth the forgiveness i gave my brother. Yes, I believe my brother is in Heaven forgiven for His crime. He was also a victim of child sex crimes and at that time you just didn't speak of such things, this was just beginning to evolve.  Then I went Thru several deaths in my family and then my Mother dies in 2005.  I'm telling you that the idea of my mother in a new body in a beautiful Heaven still gets me through.  Then my Dad in 2012.  Same there.  After all the heartache and trials we plow thru in this life there should be a reward. A higher level of life if not, then why are we here. No reason other than a freak explosion in outer space, no way have I suffered thru this life for nothing.
  The explosion, huh? Evolved from monkeys?  How can an explosion know the earth needed an atmosphere to protect it from those gases coming off the sun.  Or that it just needed one moon, oh that's just how it happened, no it took an extremely superior intelligence to do all that.  Spirit gives life not cells.  Spirit gives us strength, love, and morality.  How could an explosion create a body that is so complex.  All those chemicals in the brain unbelievers use to explain spiritual matters are to me proof there is a God/Gods out there.  God is just a human word i prefer to think of our creators more like my fathers and mothers.  Perhaps life is similar to ours with the exception of death where the creators come from, they had to come from somewhere. Wow i bet that is a fascinating story.  I would have to think of them as pure energy and knowledge. Do they look like us, don't know never seen a God. If we evolved from monkeys why are they still here? And how does that explain different races? More than one creator explains more than one race, if we were created in the images of each creator.
  Was Jesus God's son, we all are. The fact that He was willing to die for all of mankind, does make Him special to me. His death did bring a lot of change to mankind.  Where I get disturbed is when I think of all the mean and twisted things mankind has done in Christ's name after the sacrifice He gave it really breaks my heart :'(.  Jesus warned of false doctrine and the state of religion now,  is a perfect example of His wisdom of what false doctrine could do.  That's false doctrine out there making you all so angry that you would rather believe in nothing than what's out there right now.  I'm saying please don't let it stop you from thinking it is possible that we are created and if that's the case why,and by who or what, and see what kind of ideas you come up with.  Perhaps they have long forgotten us, but I believe as long as there is some good in this world we will go on.
  I think God's existence can be proven by a very large experiment.  Get every person on the planet to accept that we are all equal and that it takes workers just as well as it takes employers to make this work  and stop being greedy, love your children, be there for them, and do no harm to your fellow man and let's see what happens.  Maybe our creators are  so pleased with what we have learned that they reveal themselves to us.  I believe it's certainly worth a try.  You won't ever find your proof if your mind is closed.   

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #979 on: February 17, 2013, 10:32:08 AM »

Quote
The problem, junebug, is that you seem to expect people here to look for answers from God because you have no way to back up what you say, and that makes no sense, especially in light of the topic, "please validate your belief in your god".  That means to provide support to what you're saying.  Yet, according to you, you can't provide that support.  You can't validate your belief in your god to us.

If you can't do that, then please say as much.  If you can, then please start doing so.  That'll do as much as anything to defuse the hostility from other members.

 I don't expect anything from anybody here except myself. I'm sorry I can't explain things better for you, I think my idea of proof is different from yours.  You want scientific proof of spiritual matters and that's just not possible for me , I am not a scientist.  I'm giving you spiritual evidence of God's assistance in the form of my own spiritual experience. No I don't think I am more special than any one else, but that I was willing I think is an important point.  You have to first understand that for some reason He's not our super hero and that we are responsible for the state of mankind and that sense God was intelligent enough to know how to create that He knows what is best for us and I can understand how not saving us from each other is important to our growth as people.  What believing offers us is a purpose and what belief can do is offer you comfort in so many ways. The same for you as it is for me.  I see proof of creation all around me. all that science has proven, dinasaurs and the age of the earth to me is proof of creation.  It disproves the Genesis version but it does not disprove creation.  The complexity of life is what shuts my brain down to the idea of evolution as the explanation.  Could be both theories are wrong, but hey if this were easy we'd already have it figured out.  It's hard to study something you can't hardly comprehend, touch, see, or feel, but we should continue searching for answers.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #980 on: February 17, 2013, 10:44:37 AM »


Quote
Evidence that we were created by a god?

all around you, look under a microscope at how complex life is, it may not be evidence but it is certainly a clue that it took intelligence to create life on earth, some freak explosion could not have intelligence.  Explosion + intelligence makes sense.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11193
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #981 on: February 17, 2013, 10:46:18 AM »
all around you, look under a microscope at how complex life is, it may not be evidence but it is certainly a clue that it took intelligence to create life on earth, some freak explosion could not have intelligence.  Explosion + intelligence makes sense.

So who created your god? If complexity is evidence of design, then your god must've been designed as well. And the god who created it. And the god who created the god who created it. And so on ad infinitum.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6749
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #982 on: February 17, 2013, 11:07:32 AM »
Juneau

Being wowed by complexity means only that your take on the subject is too simplistic.

And though we ech have to deal with tragedy in our own way, it is possible to look at death in other ways. Both of my parents are dead too.  My mothers ashes were spread at sea, my fathers will be eventually. That is all that remains of either of them. I have no belief whatsoever that the continued to exist in some other form. I accept this easily.

I'm old enough to know that the same hing will happen to me in the foreseeable future. If I had a choice, I would avoid death and the annihilation of my consciousness. I have no say in the matter. My molecules will continue on, but not the part I call me. And since that is the natural order, and over 100 billion people have died before me, successfully, I understand it as the natural order of things. Without having to introduce a designer.

Just wanted you to know hat your thought processes don't have to go the way you want hem to. Alternatives exist.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #983 on: February 17, 2013, 11:16:19 AM »







Quote
Great leapin' jesus, I'd hope that if there was a god it wouldn't have unconditional love.  Otherwise god would love the mao tsedongs, the joe stalins and the rick santorums of the world.  And that would be unjust.  What kind of uncritical, undiscriminating god do you believe in?

do we not punish our children when they misbehave, but continue to love them.  I have a son and even if he committed the most horrible crime I would certainly be very disgusted and hurt by what he done but I would still love him and try to help him learn from his terrible mistake. 


Seems to me your on one [spiritual journey] right now.

Quote
That's rather too vague to be useful to me.

btw, there is a link in my sig that will take you to the tutorial for quoting.  Say "there's no joy like quoting" aloud three times, then click the link.  Or, just click the link.  It works either way.

there's no joy like quoting
there's no joy like quoting
there's no joy like quoting

don't think I don't realize when someone is being condescending, if it makes you feel like a better person for doing so then please be my guest.

for such an intelligent person I can't believe that was too vague for you. let me be more specific. A spiritual journey is a search for God.  my point is that you are on a web site looking for evidence of God.  That is the spiritual journey I 'm referencing.

i will definitely be specific for you from now on. My bad.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12537
  • Darwins +300/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #984 on: February 17, 2013, 11:38:29 AM »
do we not punish our children when they misbehave, but continue to love them.  I have a son and even if he committed the most horrible crime I would certainly be very disgusted and hurt by what he done but I would still love him and try to help him learn from his terrible mistake.

That's your children, though.  What if they weren't your children?  What if they were people you didn't know?

Would you say that your love for these people is conditional on them being your children?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:48:56 AM by Azdgari »
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2277
  • Darwins +76/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #985 on: February 17, 2013, 11:45:01 AM »
Quote
So who created your god? If complexity is evidence of design, then your god must've been designed as well. And the god who created it. And the god who created the god who created it. And so on ad infinitum.

that's an awesome question, my thoughts keep leaning towards energy. I don't see us being able to understand unless it is revealed after death or we invent a time machine, seriously. And even if you invent the time machine could our physical bodies endure the trip. Doubtfully.  I really think energy has something to do with it some how.  I have asked myself that same question and i have to admit it is a tough one.  One thing I'm sure of is that a lot will be learned as we try to answer it.  there has to always been something out there because you can't get anything from nothing, but where did that come from, couldn't have come from nothing, thinking about it I am going to say that is another good reason to believe in something, how else will we ever know other than life after death on a higher realm where we are free from the restraints of the human body?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99