Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 46031 times)

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #870 on: February 11, 2013, 05:17:15 PM »
Come on, Wayne, you expect us to read piles of your writings and now expect us to watch over an hour of movie. Come on, we aren't all completely without anything to do.

You tell us in your words what this is all about.
You may as well ask the earth to stop rotating.

He has yet to answer any questions. The entire thread has been changed to "I'm Wayne hear me." It's been going on since page 7, 24 pages ago it's time to do something.

Anybody else would have had his arse put in ER till he complied by now, for all the dodging etc etc, he has done.

I think he may be doing certain favours for the mods. (sarcasm)

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 05:21:48 PM by bertatberts »
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #871 on: February 11, 2013, 06:10:01 PM »
Come on, Wayne, you expect us to read piles of your writings and now expect us to watch over an hour of movie. Come on, we aren't all completely without anything to do.

You tell us in your words what this is all about.
Yeah, I know it's long. If I were you I'd watch it on netflix on your tv when you do have time.  The other movie, Dreams from My Real Father and agenda together would cover the bases pretty well.

For me to say more would probably cause us to stray of the Validate subject of this thread.  I'll try to continue to focus on validating my belief, and just use these references as background support.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #872 on: February 11, 2013, 06:11:05 PM »
I'm particularly happy to talk to someone that might be able to dismiss all this quasi earthquake prediction nonsense you scientific minded people seem to embrace.  It's funny that I'm the one talking about premonitions, and having to beat down the foolishness that man has evolved with an increasing ability predict an earthquake.... separate from science, and without the existence of God.  You thought I was loopy!
I think this is the problem right here.  Judging from this, you apparently thought I was talking about humans predicting earthquakes in advance without the aid of science or technology.  Well, I can definitely say that this is not the case.  I was referring to earthquake-detection technology in my post, the one where I said "We're already at the point where we can know within a few seconds that a tectonic plate has slipped.  It is well within the realm of probability that we'll be able to pick up tectonic shocks as they happen, and not even in the distant future, and be able to let people know about them as soon as they happen too."

I in no way intended to say or imply that humans had any natural ability to predict earthquakes.  If you're willing to accept this, we can move on.

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #873 on: February 11, 2013, 06:33:41 PM »

Thousands of people have visions of earthquakes, every day, all over the world. Hundreds of earthquakes happen every year--most too small for people to feel, luckily. It would be strange if someone somewhere did not have a vision of an earthquake that coincided with an actual earthquake! What would be the point of god giving you a random vision of an earthquake?
God made mine just a little too non random to throw it in with all the other visions that you have pulled up off the top of your head to support your imaginary argument.

And what does the word "impact" have to do with an earthquake? It was not a meteor strike or a plane crash or god's might fist punching out President Obama. Yeah, during earthquakes things fall down and have impacts, but also fires erupt and gas mains rupture causing explosions. Why would god say "impact"? That would be like hearing "fire" right before a hurricane.

That's a fair question.  I don't know.  I guess I could have said shake, or quake or whatever, the fact is I said impact, and for me that was still pretty cool.

That is only fair. And as it turns out, none of them have any more factual evidence than any other. That is the one thing that they all have in common with you, Wayne.
The evidence I have for you is testamonial.  I have many more you haven't heard.  The God I serve rewards those that seek him and his truth diligently, and those that trust without proof are highly valued believers.  Not everyone gets the kind of evidence I have, but because my evidence supports biblical principals, that fact along with spiritual confirmations can support faith in God.

Can you address my question about the god Eshu and triplets? How would you explain that Eshu, whose magic number is 3, does not cause triplets to be born?

I misunderstood what you were asking me the first time, I'm sorry about that.  I would tell them about the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that he is the only God worthy of their devotion, and to ignore the myths from their false gods.  I would depend on the Spirit of God to support what I testify to them more than I would depend on my ability to disuade them their error. 
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #874 on: February 11, 2013, 06:38:21 PM »
Wayne,
           I bet staying away from this web site yesterday was more difficult than you expected -  step by step, inch by inch....... 8)
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #875 on: February 11, 2013, 06:50:38 PM »
Quote
Obama is as much a symptom as he is the problem.  I think my Obama is America's Idi Amin retro-prophecy is continuing in it's fulfilment in ways I don't want to imagine. 
Wayne, since you are suggesting Obama is like Idi Amin I think you need to justify that statement by elaborating on it.

Maybe elsewhere or later. Do watch the vimeo I pasted the link to that you must reassemble.  I will say right here that the prophecy is as much for you to add context to as for me.  If my vision clearly said: Obama is America's Idi Amin then use your own imagination and you can get the feel of how God is sending a message of impending doom in one simple statement.  I had a follow up dream that went like this: 
Quote
. I had a dream the Friday night after I met Bill Whittle that showed riots ahead blocking a freeway.  As I stopped and began negotiating how to reverse course to avoid the riots I was met by a near giant personage at first I perceived as a possible threat, but his raiment was white and pillowy and he peacefully attended me as I observed to the side of me concrete infrastructure that was being dismantled with primitive hand tools, the broken debris of which was being handed down from this structure in a basket, hand to hand, or possibly by rope.  Its interpretation you have to admit, is not exactly rocket science.  Give ‘er a try

I believe we are going to self destruct from within, not primarily from outside forces.  The primitive tools destroying the infrastructure are the mobs of people whose dependence on welfare and other government entitlements will not be paid and they will riot.  Now I'm applying sound speculation to an affirming dream here.  The forces tearing down the infrastructure are not using advanced modern tools like a foreign army, just whatever they can get their hands on.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:33:56 PM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #876 on: February 11, 2013, 06:57:43 PM »
I in no way intended to say or imply that humans had any natural ability to predict earthquakes.  If you're willing to accept this, we can move on.

I'm glad of that jaimehlers.  It's just that your comments, though interesting and factual weren't advancing the argument. Lets do move on.  Thanks for the clarification.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #877 on: February 11, 2013, 06:59:53 PM »
Wayne,
           I bet staying away from this web site yesterday was more difficult than you expected -  step by step, inch by inch....... 8)

You would be right about that, it is addicting.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #878 on: February 11, 2013, 07:27:16 PM »
Nevertheless, I gave an honest answer based on the rational perspective of someone who's interpretation of events is not predicated by a desire to have his world view validated by god.

Sometimes my answers sound dismissive, and it may be on account of overwork here. Asking you to imagine what I experienced was quite a bit different than imagining a earthquake, which many non Californians think of when they visit here.  They think, wow, is it going to happen?  And it seemingly never does for their sake, and that's a big disappointment, at least for me.  I always want one to happen while my friends visit because it makes for cool memories. 

Here's where I'm going with this.  I'm a Californian and have experienced most of them since the late 60's.  The day I had the vision even after the vision, I wasn't thinking of an earthquake.  Now that's the part you have to imagine to think what you would do.  Let that disruption I described play out with no thought of an earthquake. 

See when you do it that way you can absolutely rule out that I just got lucky thinking of an earthquake then one happening.  Thinking of an earthquake and then having one happen would have been a cooincidence with an uncertain corelation. 

Mine, the one I'm asking you to imagine living out, was so much more remarkable than that.  I was in what you could call a trans while the eggs went cold, and NOT thinking of earthquakes. I was brought back to the same exact seat, and it played out, to my surprise, as an earthquake.  And of course I spent the next couple of days on an adrenelin rush, like a chicken with his head cut off, wondering what in the world I was supposed to do about it.  Awsome.

See, there is a distinction here.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:31:56 PM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline Jag

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #879 on: February 11, 2013, 08:31:21 PM »
And of course I spent the next couple of days on an adrenelin rush, like a chicken with his head cut off, wondering what in the world I was supposed to do about it.  Awsome.

And what you decided to do was come to an obviously atheist website and talk about it for 25 pages? That's the best you could come up with?

Really?

Here's what I'm thinking Wayne - I have two operating theories going here. I'm betting you've tried this out at theist sites, and gotten one of two reactions, and ultimately, those reactions led you here. Follow along please...

Hypothesis 1: You tell your stories and get some credulous people ooh-ing and aah-ing over your amazing proof of the existence of God. They encourage you to share your story with others, you set up a feedback loop of reinforcement from other believers, and suddenly, you think you're ready to tackle the toughest theist crowd, the atheists.
Flaw in this plan: we're not credulous, and we start from a position of dis-belief. You're not working with reinforcement, you don't know how to tailor your message to your audience, and you don't understand empirical evidence.

Hypothesis 2: You tell your stories and get a few people doing ooh/ahh's, but many are dismissive - your fellow believers aren't giving you the appreciation you think you deserve, so you aim for a different audience altogether - non-believers! We're dumb enough to think GOD doesn't exist, there's no way we can possibly withstand the strength of your convictions as you set us straight!
Flaw: we're not credulous, and we start from a position of dis-belief. You're not working with reinforcement, you don't know how to tailor your message to your audience, and you don't understand empirical evidence. And you're really, really arrogant.

Our share in the responsibility:we continue to patiently correct your mistaken ideas of who and what atheists are, we answer your questions while repeatedly requesting that you do the same and answer ours, we indulge your need for attention while you: condescend to all of us, insist that we accept at face value extraordinary claims with no empirical evidence to support them, and endlessly promote your personal website. We should stop helping you promote your particular brand of BS.

I think you're trying to take advantage of the popularity of this website to promote your own by keeping your name attached to the topic. Very christian of you, sadly. Shameless, Wayne, absolutely shameless*. Your god told you not to do this - I hope your fully prepared to explain yourself to him when the time comes.



*unless you're a mormon - then it's called "lying for the lord", and completely acceptable to god.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 08:33:50 PM by Jag »
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #880 on: February 11, 2013, 08:33:08 PM »
Wayne

Perhaps you don't know this, but it may be relevant.

It is quite common for memories, especially memories brought up over and over, to end up being distorted, sometimes to the point of becoming complete fictions, because each recollection of the event starts becoming a recollection of the previous time the event was remembered, and not the actual original memory. The more a memory is recalled, the less accurate it is. Your many dozens of retellings of the earthquake tale and other stories invited further error. You could easily be telling us what you remember as the whole truth, while telling us something that is a complete fabrication, without even knowing it.

How often are human memories actually accurate? Virtually never.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112697785/human-brain-memory-telephone-game-092012/


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #881 on: February 11, 2013, 09:13:24 PM »

I misunderstood what you were asking me the first time, I'm sorry about that.  I would tell them about the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that he is the only God worthy of their devotion, and to ignore the myths from their false gods.  I would depend on the Spirit of God to support what I testify to them more than I would depend on my ability to disuade them their error.

Wayne, I think you have misunderstood the question even more here. Nogodsforme wasn't (if I recall) asking you what you would say to the tribes who believe in Eshu. She was restating a question which almost all of us have asked in some form or another, and which you have yet to answer.

The point is that these people DO believe in their god. Just as Muslims believe in Allah, Just as countless adherents of countless faiths have believed in their deities. Every bit as fervently as you believe in your version of God.

And for each of these faiths, there are countless people who believe that certain, completely natural occurrences are brought about by their god. There are countless people who have unswerving faith that their god speaks to them; that they have experienced miracles--coincidences every bit as amazing, and probably more so, than those you have related here.

You would say they are wrong. They would say you are. Each of you has your own scriptures backing up your claims.

Logically, you cannot both (or all) be right, but there is nothing that precludes you all being wrong.

The question is not one of prosyletizing to these people. It's one of recognizing that you are, in effect, no different from them
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:15:38 PM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #882 on: February 11, 2013, 09:19:27 PM »
...tell me what the incident would have meant to you if it had happened to you.

So what did the incident mean to me?  Very little, truth be told.  A daydream that shared a couple of similarities with later events (which happens quite a lot), but for which the number of differences means I could not regard it in any way prophetic.  What it DID do was give me a very cool story to tell, which (as is often the case with stories told to others) I would probably polish and embellish over time.  It would be "my earthquake story", and possibly in time I might even come to believe it a little myself....but when I look back carefully on it, I can see that there was nothing really inexplicable about the experience at all.

I am completely and utterly impressed by how thorough your analysis is Anfauglir.  Well done!

Now, that makes me want to expound on the vision in a way to distinguish it from an idle imagination.

The very fact that I was being led step by step those days needs further description.  (Indeed I have countless incidents where I have been aware of my every step being guided, this being by far the most astounding). Allow me to expound.

Paul's was a place I would frequent no more than once a week, if that, during that time.  It wasn't unusual for me to be there but it could be said that to frequent it twice in three days was very rare.

That vision was astounding.  I had never had anything happen like that before.  I had had things just as amazing happen but nothing quite like this vision.  I knew it meant something and I wanted to know more or I wouldn't have likely gone back to the restaurant that soon.  So I was,  on Oct. 1, "returning to the scene" out of curiosity and it was providential that the same seat was unoccupied, but I went back with intent to sit in the same spot, because I was still fixated on that vision, hoping to discover more.  Man did I! 

I have had other spiritual incidences, one in the local foothills, and one while driving that still remains one of the biggest mysteries of my life.  The foothills incident like the counter stool at Paul's I returned to see if I was to receive further instructions, but repeat performances like the Paul's thing never happened in the foothills.

I was reading Tale of Two Cities the other day, and was amazed how a writer the likes of Dickens would not leave out the kind of details like the ones I've omitted.  I do need to learn how to be more complete in my descriptions. Mine is not fiction but after reading your articulate recounting of the events as I described them and your final analysis I realised that I have a way to go in doing the actual incident justice in print.

You are being very helpful. Thank you.  If I do my job as well describing  what happened as you did recounting it, I believe you will be come to see that my experience is indeed supernatural.

I can't thank you enough.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #883 on: February 11, 2013, 11:09:42 PM »
And of course I spent the next couple of days on an adrenalin rush, like a chicken with his head cut off, wondering what in the world I was supposed to do about it.  Awesome.

And what you decided to do was come to an obviously atheist website and talk about it for 25 pages? That's the best you could come up with?

Really?

There is a marked time delay here, you must take that into consideration.  I shared the story from time to time over the years, but went along about my business leaving it in the past and maybe wondering and asking that the Lord might tell me what the purpose was.  I was able to forget about it for the most part until about the time of my 58th birthday when it was time to gather it all together.  That is a story you haven't heard.  1987 mind you is a long time ago.

Here's what I'm thinking Wayne - I have two operating theories going here. I'm betting you've tried this out at theist sites, and gotten one of two reactions, and ultimately, those reactions led you here. Follow along please...

I have never posted on an atheist site, and have never even imagined doing so until I was guided by a dream of amputation, and my subsequent arrival on this 'pirate ship' as I have affectionately called it.  You have my hand on a stack of bibles word on that.  (along with everything else I've said on this site minus the hopefully obvious jokes about owning a jet, and having three legs).  Let me know if you missed the three legs thing.  It's hysterical.

Hypothesis 1: You tell your stories and get some credulous people ooh-ing and aah-ing over your amazing proof of the existence of God. They encourage you to share your story with others, you set up a feedback loop of reinforcement from other believers, and suddenly, you think you're ready to tackle the toughest theist crowd, the atheists.
Flaw in this plan: we're not credulous, and we start from a position of dis-belief. You're not working with reinforcement, you don't know how to tailor your message to your audience, and you don't understand empirical evidence.

errr... nope.  Your whole presumption here is that I'm selling a bill of goods to aggrandize myself.  If I were a shyster you'd be on to something.  As far as knowing how to tailor the message, you might have something there, but there is no spinning going on here, it is all truth and my tailoring would be better described as better describing for clarity, see my last post response to anf......r  I can't adjust it for believability because I'm doing no doctoring for believability.  The feedback loop thing.. kind of, or mostly, non existent,  I could have hoped though.

Hypothesis 2: You tell your stories and get a few people doing ooh/ahh's, but many are dismissive - your fellow believers aren't giving you the appreciation you think you deserve, so you aim for a different audience altogether - nonbelievers! We're dumb enough to think GOD doesn't exist, there's no way we can possibly withstand the strength of your convictions as you set us straight!
Flaw: we're not credulous, and we start from a position of dis-belief. You're not working with reinforcement, you don't know how to tailor your message to your audience, and you don't understand empirical evidence. And you're really, really arrogant.

You are right in a few things on this one.  Many have been dismissive, or at least quiet. I suppose getting more reinforcement than I have would be nice, but there is a certain stubbornness to someone who had been getting revelations from a higher power, it matters not how many people are dismissive, it isn't and never was a popularity motivation.  The worst thing that could happen is to get popular because I tweaked the truth to make it popular. 

I am not personally responsible for the content, only for reporting it accurately, and ultimately I'm not even really responsible if anybody believes it. If God induced it, he is ultimately responsible for its acceptance and believability.  I have been disappointed in the past that people are reticent to take it all at face value, but fully understanding that I would have trouble believing it myself, if it hadn't happened to me.  It is hard to adequately describe how, having been dismissed or let's say not exactly 'reinforced' I can walk away and simply be amused at the spectre of the circumstance I'm in. There is an abiding peace and assurance that His time is not my time and that He is able to accomplish in me what He intends, when He intends it.  It is amazing actually.

My admiration for your hypothesis still fails to lend any more merit to it than that.

Our share in the responsibility:we continue to patiently correct your mistaken ideas of who and what atheists are, we answer your questions while repeatedly requesting that you do the same and answer ours, we indulge your need for attention while you: condescend to all of us, insist that we accept at face value extraordinary claims with no empirical evidence to support them, and endlessly promote your personal website. We should stop helping you promote your particular brand of BS.

I'm not writing fiction here.  God is my witness. His method by using me in this circumstance is to throw you a curve.  My personality is not just my own arrogant invention.  I'm being humored with some really fantastic personality enhancing 'coincidences'.  Did you see the pale rider thing?

God apparently means for me to have a humorously enhanced persona to make his points.  These things are a surprise and a delight to me.  How about that cowboy song? the racing suit? If it is arrogant, I can declare with all assurance  to you that I could have never dreamt it up on my own.  Just watch what else happens.  It is all hilarious.

I think you're trying to take advantage of the popularity of this website to promote your own by keeping your name attached to the topic. Very christian of you, sadly. Shameless, Wayne, absolutely shameless*. Your god told you not to do this - I hope your fully prepared to explain yourself to him when the time comes.

I think He's laughing with me at you on this comment.  You have no idea.  Well maybe you do.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 11:17:35 PM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #884 on: February 11, 2013, 11:19:11 PM »
Now, that makes me want to expound on the vision in a way to distinguish it from an idle imagination.

So instead of simply agreeing and recognizing that there isn't enough of a reason to think of your experience as supernatural (which you're basically doing here by admitting to Anfauglir that you're not providing anything convincing to anyone other than yourself), you're going to give us more 'evidence' of the exact same type that you've already given us and that we've already easily rejected?  What are you going to give us now?  You're favorite color was blue and the chair you were sitting in was blue?  PRAAAAAISE JEZUZ!!   

Unless you have something that requires a supernatural explanation, then this is a useless process for you.  You really might have something supernatural to give, and if you do, I want to hear it, but if you haven't given it yet, then it just seems highly unlikely that you're going to produce it in the future.  You would have done it by now.  So give us something that can't be explained naturally or GTFO.  I've said it before that the only reason you think of these things as special is if you FIRST believe that God exists and that he's giving you, super, special, egotistical Wayne, clues about his existence.  People who don't do that will see these coincidences as either evidence for their god, as just pure coincidence, or as something different altogether.  It's the initial belief in God that separates us here, and THAT'S what requires analysis.  Until you've proven that God exists, then saying that these coincidences are more than just coincidences is nothing more than the theological standpoint you go through your life with.  It's the way you square the supposed existence of an invisible, undetectable, unmeasurable deity with a reality that appears to be totally devoid a god.  The most glaring flaw is that you've already admitted that coincidences that are not related to God in any way happen all the time, so therefore, coincidences CAN NOT BE evidence for God as they can also be explained without God actually existing.

The bottom line here is that to you, they're more than coincidence, but to us, they're not.  Both are reasonable stances given our world views.  So all that's left is for you to prove that God exists.   If you can prove that the God that you believe in exists, then it would get you further along in the discussion, because it would at least seem reasonable to make the claim that God is giving you messages.  Obviously, if God isn't real, he's not giving you messages.  But if he IS real, you'd still have to prove your experiences were messages from him, because they could still just be coincidences.  Remember, God could exist and still not give a shit about you.

Do you agree that if your first premise (God exists) is wrong, then each and every event that you've written about or talked about with relation to God could be explained solely as coincidences and possibly uncommon, yet mundane events?  I know that, to you, it seems like with ALL the stories you've written, that at least ONE of them HAS to be more than coincidence, but think on a smaller scale... event by event.  Pick any of your events you want and analyze it.  Even the earthquake one... Could it have been a coincidence that you were in Paul's restaurant at the time of an earthquake?  Could you have coincidentally sat in the same spot in a restaurant you frequented?  Could you have had a very strange and astonishing vision like millions of other people around the world have every day?  Could you have been talking to someone about Pat Robertson and said a word that doesn't really have anything to do with earthquakes when an earthquake happened?  The answer is yes to all of them, Wayne.  Yes to all of them. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #885 on: February 11, 2013, 11:35:35 PM »
Wayne

Perhaps you don't know this, but it may be relevant.

It is quite common for memories, especially memories brought up over and over, to end up being distorted, sometimes to the point of becoming complete fictions, because each recollection of the event starts becoming a recollection of the previous time the event was remembered, and not the actual original memory. The more a memory is recalled, the less accurate it is. Your many dozens of retellings of the earthquake tale and other stories invited further error. You could easily be telling us what you remember as the whole truth, while telling us something that is a complete fabrication, without even knowing it.

How often are human memories actually accurate? Virtually never.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112697785/human-brain-memory-telephone-game-092012/

You make  a good point.  I'm actually very dependent on what could be called original sources to correct my current understanding of things.  The glory of all this is that I took copious notes at the time of the incidences and I have had to correct my current memories by going back to those notes. 

Now this is where it really gets fun.

I will have told a story as I remember it and when I return to the original account, it not only is different in some respect from my memory, but actually better.  I've had to call  people back and tell them the part I left out because it made the story that much more fantastic.  I am not kidding.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 12:12:23 AM by WayneHarropson »
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #886 on: February 12, 2013, 12:01:12 AM »

Do you agree that if your first premise (God exists) is wrong, then each and every event that you've written about or talked about with relation to God could be explained solely as coincidences and possibly uncommon, yet mundane events?
Nope
 
I know that, to you, it seems like with ALL the stories you've written, that at least ONE of them HAS to be more than coincidence, but think on a smaller scale... event by event.  Pick any of your events you want and analyze it.  Even the earthquake one...
They all pretty much stand alone for the wonders they are.


Could it have been a coincidence that you were in Paul's restaurant at the time of an earthquake?  Could you have coincidentally sat in the same spot in a restaurant you frequented?


On the coincidence of being in a restaurant during an earthquake, no big deal. But you  must know that you are wasting your time trying to eliminate the premonition, and you must know it.
 
I intended to sit  in the same place and it was ready waiting for me, that by itself is no big deal.... but who was sitting next to me?  It gives me shivers to recall it all.  Every single detail has it's own wonder.

Could you have had a very strange and astonishing vision like millions of other people around the world have every day?  Could you have been talking to someone about Pat Robertson and said a word that doesn't really have anything to do with earthquakes when an earthquake happened?  The answer is yes to all of them, Wayne.  Yes to all of them.

Your millions of astonishing visions that you imagine in your imaginary argument is not an element to be considered.  We are confining this to the walls of a pretty dinky coffee shop.  Give me a break.  I'd say nice try, but that would be giving you credit you haven't deserved.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 12:13:59 AM by WayneHarropson »
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #887 on: February 12, 2013, 12:11:38 AM »
The question is not one of prosyletizing to these people. It's one of recognizing that you are, in effect, no different from them.
 

You may make that assessment from your perspective  if you wish. The bible says:
Quote
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.Romans 14:11
I am only diffeent rom them in that My God is the one they will be bowing to when they discover the true God.  I know it now, you and they will know it later. Otherwise were the same.  God is just, I trust his judgement.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #888 on: February 12, 2013, 12:29:35 AM »
Your premonition story is just a STORY,we have no way of verifying it as true. As for earthquakes,animals often run to the hills or some other safe place just before an earthquake,something imprinted in their DNA lets them sense an impending earthquake,they run to safety.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/15945014

 So you are no more special than most four legged animals out there.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #889 on: February 12, 2013, 12:42:27 AM »
Here's a couple things you should seriously consider, Wayne.

First, you had this vision of yours, and so you went back to the restaurant sooner than you normally did, intending to sit in the very same seat.  So that's not a coincidence - the two are causally linked.  It is little different than someone who has a fortuitous experience, and who repeats the steps that led up to that experience in order to have it again.  That means the only coincidence that has any bearing on this discussion is that there was an earthquake on your return visit - the other ones you mentioned (getting involved in that woman's conversation about Pat Robertson, finding out she was a telephone prayer adviser, etc), only seem significant to you, but they're pure coincidences that aren't even low probabilities.  That means that only the earthquake led you to believe there was some connection between them.  If there had been no earthquake, you would have had an interesting conversation, but it wouldn't really be noteworthy.  And, honestly, in a state like California, during a time when it had above-average seismic activity, having a relatively minor earthquake isn't really noteworthy either.

And second, relating to your statement that the only difference between you and other believers is that they would bow to your god in the end, I'm sure they would say the same about you.  Indeed, this is a fairly common belief - that they'll be proven right in the end, that they picked the right god to worship.  But you have no evidence to support this belief of yours.  Nor do they.  You could both be wrong.  And you simply can't prove that you're right, nor can they.  People have argued over who's god is the right one, or which way to worship is correct, for thousands of years.  Indeed, for much of history they've killed nonbelievers and heretics based on what their beliefs say is true.  And even today, in this country, there's still people who believe that nonbelievers and heretics should die because they don't believe in the 'right' god and the 'right' way to worship.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #890 on: February 12, 2013, 01:08:42 AM »
The day I had the vision even after the vision, I wasn't thinking of an earthquake.  Now that's the part you have to imagine to think what you would do.  Let that disruption I described play out with no thought of an earthquake. 

See when you do it that way you can absolutely rule out that I just got lucky thinking of an earthquake then one happening.  Thinking of an earthquake and then having one happen would have been a cooincidence with an uncertain corelation. 

Mine, the one I'm asking you to imagine living out, was so much more remarkable than that.  I was in what you could call a trans while the eggs went cold, and NOT thinking of earthquakes. I was brought back to the same exact seat, and it played out, to my surprise, as an earthquake. <snip>

See, there is a distinction here.

You seem to think making the point that your 'vision' was not specifically of an earthquake, but of a more general commotion/disruption somehow makes it more remarkable. In fact, the opposite is true. Moving from a position of greater to lesser detail makes the story even less compelling.

Think of it this way:
If I came to you and said, "Man, the craziest thing happened! I should have bought a powerball ticket, because I would have won!" based on one of the following, which would be more remarkable to you?:

1. I had a dream about ping-pong balls floating in midair the night before.
2. I had a vision of the numbers 2, 14, 17, 26, 35, and 9 repeating over and over again. These were the winning numbers of the lottery drawing the next day.

Clearly, option 2 is the more amazing story because it contains more specific information. How does making your story less specific make it more convincing?

BTW, I would posit that the best thing about being a retroactive prophet is that you get to decide at your leisure which events your visions foretold, whether they happen 2 days or 23 years later. Make a prophecy general enough and apply it to an unrestricted timeline and you pretty much have a recipe for success, don't you?
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #891 on: February 12, 2013, 01:36:39 AM »
I am only diffeent rom them in that My God is the one they will be bowing to when they discover the true God.  I know it now, you and they will know it later. Otherwise were the same.  God is just, I trust his judgement.

I'm not planning to bow, if only to falsify the Bible quotation.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #892 on: February 12, 2013, 05:23:40 AM »
Now, that makes me want to expound on the vision in a way to distinguish it from an idle imagination.
.....
Paul's was a place I would frequent no more than once a week, if that, during that time.  It wasn't unusual for me to be there but it could be said that to frequent it twice in three days was very rare.
.....
That vision was astounding.  I had never had anything happen like that before.  I had had things just as amazing happen but nothing quite like this vision.  I knew it meant something and I wanted to know more or I wouldn't have likely gone back to the restaurant that soon.  So I was,  on Oct. 1, "returning to the scene" out of curiosity and it was providential that the same seat was unoccupied, but I went back with intent to sit in the same spot, because I was still fixated on that vision, hoping to discover more.  Man did I! 

There's two important points I want to make here.

Firstly, you'll recall I spent some time, and several posts, trying to get as many relevant details about the experience as I could.  During that process, you got rather patronising with me for doing so.  But I persevered, and spent the time on it, trying to get all the information that was relevant before I answered.

Then I answered.....and all of a sudden you start offering more detail and more facts that you hadn't offered while I was asking the questions.  At the very best, that means you've wasted my time, because I wasn't in possession of all the facts.  Do you think in the circumstances I will feel more, or less likely to want to answer the next question you put to me?  And at the worst, one might suspect that you had deliberately withheld certain facts, so that you could spring them out later in an "aha! But this!" manner. 

Secondly.....have you seen the element of self-fulfilling prophecy in your answer there, in bold?  You chose to go back when you normally would not have done, to see what would happen.  And I'm betting that - had nothing happened on that first visit back - you'd have made a point of continuing with extra visits until something DID happen.  Which of course makes coincidence far more likely.

If you'd said "after the vision, I tried my hardest NOT to go back there - but on the day, there was a diversion, and a flat tire, and no parking, and this that and the other, and I found myself FORCED back there" - then that might - might - be worthy of interest.  But to say "and I deliberately put myself into the situation more often than I would otherwise do" vastly increases the chance of coincidence coming into play.  As a resident of the area, you're going to experience quakes - so by your own actions your making the coincidence far, far more likely.

.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 06:02:53 AM by Anfauglir »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #893 on: February 12, 2013, 05:25:14 AM »
I intended to sit  in the same place and it was ready waiting for me, that by itself is no big deal.... but who was sitting next to me?  It gives me shivers to recall it all.  Every single detail has it's own wonder.

Who was sitting next to you?  Someone who you have been at pains to stress was NOT in the vision.  Its therefore quite irrelevant who was, or was not, sitting where, since you recognised nobody from the vision.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #894 on: February 12, 2013, 06:00:09 AM »
My 5K was great, thanks for asking Anfauglir . 

And there's no change with my mother, thanks for asking Wayne.  We're not friends, Wayne, and what your hobbies are off this forum is a matter of supreme indifference to me, so perhaps you should use less of the sarcasm that you are so quick to castigate us for?

What I asked you, was how DID you determine that?  What makes you so positive that that you have no ability to predict earthquakes?


The point, I suspect, is this - that you are saying that YOU are not the earthquake predictor, but rather than your god is.  And that is where the correlation/causation thing comes in.

So you have asserted here that there is no causal relationship between your ability to predict earthquakes, and sciences.
But how do you know that, Wayne?  How can you state it so certainly?  How - if you'll excuse me banging the point home - do you determine if two things have a causal relationship, or not?

Wayne, you're still not answering my question - you are answering A question, but its not the one I am posing.  You overall answer is that:

The more of these incidents kind of pile up in my dossier, the less apt I am to trouble myself with statistical analysis, and I think you can understand why in my case.

That essentially, because you believe in your particular god, you assume that every incidence is directly attributable to your god, and you will not attempt any other explanation.  So actually, I guess in a way that DOES answer my question:

"How does Wayne determine if two things have a causal relationship? Answer: he doesn't, he just assumes causality in every situation."

If that's the case, then fine - confirm that and we can drop the subject.  But if that is NOT the case, and there ARE situations where something happens and you DO ascribe it to coincidence, then can you please give an example - and take me through the thought processes you use to come to that conclusion?

Quick hypothetical for you, on a similar subject.  I put it to you that EVERY intervention in your life that you have ascribed to your god, was actually carried out by Satan.  This has led you to a deeper belief in your god…..but has also fooled you into thinking you had a special place in your god's attentions.  Regardless of whether he puts on earthquakes for your enjoyment, or spends inordinate amounts of time directing the actions of you and others to move and speak at precise points, the result is that you have believed that your god is, specifically, ordering things to give special messages to you.  With the result being that you are so sure of your experiences that you come to an atheist forum to tell us those tales…..tales that - as we have intimated before - are driving us FURTHER from your god.

In short, Satan has done all this in your life to ensure that you will lead to many, many souls being driven to him rather than to god.

Can you explain by what means you would determine that that scenario is incorrect?

How are you driving us towards Satan, you ask?  Like this:

It would be awfully flattering to me that he would have said, I'm going to blow Wayne's mind and cause an earthquake for his sake when he says the word IMPACT.  Alternatively he, being omniscient, knew the precise moment and simply got me up, put me in the car, guided me to Paul's, had those ladies waiting, and a seat open, then gave her the idea to talk about Pat Robertson, had me respond at precisely the time that the earthquake had been scheduled for the millenia.  The second scenario is a little less flattering to me and so that is the one I tend to believe.

But I have to be careful, because I don't want to limit God's power to say that he didn't just line up the earthquake with my words.  He did break the diaphragm on my gas pump spontaneously, (or made sure that the batman movie and that particular Colorado screening of it waited until my gas pump was ready to fail).  See the problem?

Because what you describe, over and over again, is a god that - although he will not go so far as to cause or prevent earthquakes, is more than ready to take innumerable attentions to one special little snowflake, not only with direct interventions in their life (break that gas pump!  Cut those lights!  Shout in his ear!) but also to take immense and subtle pains to direct the steps of him and others to line things up juuust right.  What pains your god took to somehow push your steps to that restaurant!  What pains he took to ensure that that woman was there!  And what pains he took, either to force his way into your brains to have you be saying just the right words, or to have directed their lives so precisely over the months and years beforehand such that they "just happened" to be saying those things right them.

The picture you paint, Wayne, is of a god who can and will take immense pains in the life of one man, who will directly and materially intervene in his life, time and time again.  A god who steps in and DOES stuff.  Which is all fine and dandy, and may indeed be the case.  Every thing you say has happened, everything you say your god does, may be true.

But then the question that we ask ourselves is: where was this interventionist god when this girl was raped?  When this baby was killed?  Where was the subtle influence on her life that made her think "I'll take this road instead of that" and so avoided her rapist?  Where was the broken fuel pump that delayed the killer and put that child out of his reach?  The god you describe is proven entirely able to do those things, entirely prepared to step in and take action…..but doesn't.  And I've yet to hear a definite answer to that question: when I ask it of you, all I get in response is "I've answered that somewhere" (to which I repeat: where?  Because I've certainly no recollection of your answer).  With the result, Wayne, that I am left to come up with my OWN answer - which is that your god is NOT a Very Nice Guy, and so I am left feeling that he either cannot exist, or exists but is a being that I consider to be scum.

You can choose to answer my questions, or not.  But be aware that if you do not, then you give me another push away from your god…..and you may want to factor that in to your answer as to how you tell that your god, and not Satan, was responsible for all the good things and "signs" in your life.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #895 on: February 12, 2013, 10:38:06 AM »
Mine, the one I'm asking you to imagine living out, was so much more remarkable than that.  I was in what you could call a trans while the eggs went cold, and NOT thinking of earthquakes. I was brought back to the same exact seat, and it played out, to my surprise, as an earthquake.  And of course I spent the next couple of days on an adrenelin rush, like a chicken with his head cut off, wondering what in the world I was supposed to do about it.  Awsome.
The problem, Wayne, is that it really isn't any more remarkable than me thinking about a bunch of people and cars clustered at the side of the road, and then driving past an accident some time later.

This isn't about whether or not you were thinking about earthquakes at the time.  This is about the fact that your vision was too nonspecific to be useful.  A number of different situations would have fit the scene of panic that you saw; for example, a robbery, a fire, an accident outside, even a simple power outage.  All of these would have caused some level of panic in the patrons of the restaurant, and would have fulfilled what you saw happening.  As for the laughing, who was actually laughing?  You and someone you were talking to about this vision you had.  I think it's pretty likely that you would have laughed when your vision was 'fulfilled', because it would have seemed like an amazingly accurate prediction to you, and to anyone else primed to look for God's hand in the world.

But to anyone else, it would have been an interesting coincidence from a daydream you had some time previously.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #896 on: February 12, 2013, 10:49:33 AM »
Wayne,as Anfauglir stated,it could be Satan steering you away from God,as Satan rules the earth right now. Why would you dismiss this possible scene?
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #897 on: February 12, 2013, 12:12:05 PM »


BTW, I would posit that the best thing about being a retroactive prophet is that you get to decide at your leisure which events your visions foretold, whether they happen 2 days or 23 years later. Make a prophecy general enough and apply it to an unrestricted timeline and you pretty much have a recipe for success, don't you?

I respect your scepticism but please allow me if you will to maintain that all of what I have told you is true and it is proof to me of an omniscient God.  Not to have made my case to you in the best way I know how would have been a failure on my part.  It is not my responsibility to make it more believable than it is for you by providing proofs beyond what I have received.

In law there is what is called circumstantial cases on which prosecutors procure convictions.  In these cases the jury makes a judgement call based on hopefully a preponderance of circumstances that make up for the lack of direct evidence.  It is a tough sell for a prosecutor, but not impossible.

What I offer you is a preponderance of circumstantial evidence in leu of the direct evidence that you most prefer.

So, we have the darkknight thing,  then the earthquake thing, then I told you about the odometer, and the whole list of other accounts of guidance.  After a while, for a reasonable person, the preponderance of evidence begins to add up to a conclusion that one single incident might be too speculative to draw a conclusion from.

Please don't take my playful retro-prophet idea as anything more than my way of categorizing the few incidences that have actually played out as prophecy.  I don't claim to know the future, but I do claim to know who knows the future, and in a way, I like it that way.  The way my accounts have played out, that is the one conclusion that can be derived, and all of it proves that IT IS NOT ME.

The retro prophet is as amusing to me as it sounds to you.  I have a history of having written things under the guidance of the Holy Spirit that turned out to have meaning I didn't know it meant.  I'm not LRon Hubbard, devising a start for a new cult by making stuff up.  I suspect that if the same things happened to you you might tell others about it just as I am.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 04:00:07 PM by WayneHarropson »
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #898 on: February 12, 2013, 12:22:27 PM »
Wayne,as Anfauglir stated,it could be Satan steering you away from God,as Satan rules the earth right now. Why would you dismiss this possible scene?
I'm sure he'd love to do that.  He tried with Job.
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