Please validate your belief in your God

[WayneHarropson]

And honestly, I don't care if every event took place exactly as you said it did (which it probably did not).

   
See what I mean by whistling in the dark.  This is your whole argument, you probably could have saved yourself a lot of typing.

Have you ever had a coincidental event happen in your life that you didn't attribute to God? 

Yes, just like everybody.  I don't consider the vision and the earthquake one  of those.
Have you ever had a vision in the manner that I described it.  Don't feel bad, you are not alone.  If you wish not to believe my account then just admit right now that you believe that I am lying and get it over with. If I did have the vision, then you and your objections are in trouble, and that's why you are compelled to blast me incessently.

I'm enjoying it all so it's OK.  I'm glad for your concern about how unpopular I am, but I'm absolutely content with my unpopularity among atheists, so you needn't worry so much.

[WayneHarropson]

  This isn't even a "test" as such, as I am more interested in how (and why) you determine the difference than in whether you get it "right" or not.

Glad to see you Anfauglir

So your all in on this flattery of me about my being a one man earthquake detecting machine huh.  You guys are hopeless you know that don't you?

So lets see how the coorelation causation thing applies to a God induced vision.  Please explain.

[WayneHarropson]

I am really ready for this Anfauglir but it's 11PM and I'm running a 5K at 7AM and I've got tostop having fun here sometime
Goodnight everybody.

[wright]

Are you thereby giving me credit for being just a little ahead of the curve on the earthquake prediction evolution of man or something. wright! you have to be kidding me.

Cant you see, that for any of you to introduce the advancements we have made in our ability to predict earthquakes is so utterly irrelevant as to be laughable?  What in the world does it have to do with my having a vision sitting in the same seat two days before an earthquake and then being in that same seat when it occurred.  What does that have to do with mans ability to predict earthquakes scientifically.

Wayne, for your claim that your vision was an divinely-inspired prediction of that quake to be taken seriously, we need evidence. This you have so far failed to deliver. Jaime, on the other hand, has provided a plausible alternative explanation.

I admit to misunderstanding your emphasis on earthquake detection, which is why I went into some detail there. But even leaving that aside, jaime's points about earthquakes hardly being a rare event and the human mind's well-known ability to make erroneous correlations stand.

I'm shocked and embarrassed for you both now.

If that's all it takes to shock you, your nervous system must be supercharged.

You assign supernatural cause to everyday events so readily. It strikes me as a kind of animism, only substituting a monotheistic god in place of spirits being responsible for every noteworthy happening. It seems a very limiting, superstitious view to have at this time in human history, with knowledge exploding and the overall human condition improving immensely.

That said, good luck in your 5k! Let us know how that turned out.

[DumpsterFire]

This is what happened to you. Nothing more. And absolutely nothing supernatural.

Which is the conclusion I, as someone who is not desperate to validate my own ego by being considered special by god, would come to if it had happened to me.

I guess you just had to be there dumpster.

I was there (SF, that is) over the holidays, and I did imagine myself experiencing an earthquake there. The only difference between your story and mine is that you actually[1] experienced an earthquake and I did not. Had I coincidentally traveled to SF at the same time you were there I would have experienced the fulfillment of my own earthquake vision, just like you. And I would take from it that sometimes when one is in an area prone to earthquakes, one experiences an earthquake.

It is rather disingenuous of you to ask us how we would react if we'd had a similar experience as you, then dismiss the answer with a "you just had to be there". You asked me to describe my reaction if I had been there, then belittle my reply because I wasn't actually there?!! Nevertheless, I gave an honest answer based on the rational perspective of someone who's interpretation of events is not predicated by a desire to have his world view validated by god.

1.

allegedly

[Anfauglir]

So your all in on this flattery of me about my being a one man earthquake detecting machine huh. 

Nope.  I DON'T think you are.  But then, I didn't for one moment suggest that you were.  Nor did you - you were pretty clear that you weren't (albeit using the incorrect term).

What I asked you, was how DID you determine that?  What makes you so positive that that you have no ability to predict earthqakes?  After all, you had a vision of one, then later one happened.   Was there a connection, or was there not?  You seem to be pretty vehement that there is not.....but if that is so, what is the point of the story?

So lets see how the coorelation causation thing applies to a God induced vision.  Please explain.

The point, I suspect, is this - that you are saying that YOU are not the earthquake predictor, but rather than your god is.  And that is where the correlation/causation thing comes in.

The evidence that you are presenting to us is that "Wayne experienced a vision of an earthquake.  Later, an earthquake happened".  If we assume the truth of the two events described, then there IS potential for correlation.  I don't think anyone would deny that, given, as I said, the assumption of truth, and with the proviso that to definitely assert correlation we would need to track ALL your earthquake visions and ALL the earthwuakes that occurred to see if there really IS a correlation between the two.  That part is the thrust of the statistical analysis that others have been discussing with you.

YOU, however, are further asserting two things.  Firstly, that there is not only correlation, but causation as well - that your incidence of an earthquake vision had an effect on the real earthquake that happened: essentially, that the vision HAD to be followed by the real earthquake (for it to be a vision as opposed to a fantasy).  We are asking, time and again, how you determine the causal effect, how you determine that it is NOT plain chance.  The statistical analysis we have been discussing is an important factor here.

And secondly, your strong assertion here that YOU did not produce the vision - that YOU donot have the earthquake-detecting skill.  You are quite clear that you do not claim this skill.  And I think you are correct.  But - and this is a serious question - on what basis do you make that claim?  How can you be so sure that you are not the world's first earthquake-detector?  You poo-poo the suggestion, and I do not fault you for doing so....but I think it would be helpful if you explained exactly WHY you have decided to eliminate that possibility before looking for an alternative explanation.  What is it that leads you to think "human earthquake predictor? Impossible!"

I'm sure you think it is a ridiculous question to ask, and I can quite appreciate why you would think that.  But I promise you, despite the appearance it IS a crucial question - and I'm sure that most people here would agree with me.

[jaimehlers]

The man protesteth too much methinks.

Whistling in the dark huh?  It's OK, just lt let it sink in....it will.

That's what you don't understand.  This isn't a matter of going away and thinking about something for a while and having it sink in.  You see, religious belief is emotional in nature; a person has an experience which arouses their emotions and causes them to react in certain ways.  The problem comes when they tell others about the experience and expect them to react the same way.  Anecdotes are subjective, not objective; a person who hears an anecdote will have their own subjective reaction to it.  Since religious experiences are subjective by nature, it isn't realistic to expect other people who hear about it later to feel the same way (unless they shared the same belief as you beforehand).

Indeed, when you're dealing with a bunch of skeptics like us who demand objective evidence to support statements, the saying about a snowball's chance in hell comes to mind.

By the way, "whistling in the dark" means expecting a good outcome when it isn't likely; for example, expecting a Powerball ticket you just bought to be a jackpot winner.  So I'm honestly not sure what you were trying to imply there.  However, I can say that it isn't a matter of your anecdotes "sinking in".  That comes from your expectation that other people will have the same subjective response to them as you.  Most of us here don't respond to odd occurrences and assume "supernatural, thus God" or anything like that.

[nogodsforme]

Wayne, you said, IIRC, that I was "wistling [sic] past the graveyard" when I said that religious people like you compartmentalize religion in their brains so that they can accept scientific reality even when it conflicts with their beliefs. To paraphrase the well-known Spanish philosopher Inigo Montoya, I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. 

Wayne, you spend a lot of time and effort logging in here and telling us that our ideas are not worth your time and effort. You could just address the stuff we say instead. That would be more productive in the conversation.

And you don't have to keep on telling us how ignorant we are because we don't believe the exact same things you do. We are part of the 99% of the world that does not believe the exact same things that you do. And you don't need to tell us that no amount of evidence would convince us, because we are convinced by evidence of lots of things every single day.[1] We just have not seen or heard any convincing evidence (like in a courtroom, beyond the shadow of a doubt) of any supernatural events.

We know that you believe in god. We know that you have visions that you think are from your god. You don't have to keep on repeating different versions of those statements. We got that already.You need to address the stuff that we say regarding those statements. Or admit that you cannot address our points. That is cool too. It is okay to say you don't know or can't say.

Please tell me why, even though Eshu's magic number is 3, he does not cause triplets to be born. If you cannot address this, I and everyone here will have to assume that you do agree that Eshu, the African diety of crossroads, beginnings and decisions, really does cause triplets to be born, all over the world. Should everyone begin praying to Eshu or not? If not, please explain why not?

(And don't just say, "Eshu is a false god." You need to explain what makes Eshu a false god. And why he has nothing to do with triplets.)

I hope that you understand the point of my asking you this question about Eshu. Eshu happens to be one of my favorite dieties, along with the Hindu goddess Durga. If I believed in gods, those are the two I would definitely believe in to start. They are awesome!

If you don't want to discuss Eshu, you could try this one: if a person ran up to you right after an earthquake and said that several days before they had had a vision that an earthquake was going to happen, would you believe their vision was from your god? Would it matter if the person was a Christian, a Muslim or a Scientologist? In other words, does your god talk to anyone else besides you?

1.	I am convinced, by evidence, that when I turn on my cell phone, it will enable me to call my husband. I am not convinced that my cell phone will enable me to call Thor. Damn. I wish somebody could convince me of that!

[12 Monkeys]

To paraphrase the Python's Cheese Shop :
   Atheists:  Wayne, is there, in fact, any chance of you changing your views at all?
   Wayne:   No, not in the slightest.

   Wayne:   Atheists, is there, in fact, any chance of you all adapting my views?
   Atheists:  No, not in the slightest.
John Cleese:  Well, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid we are going to have to shoot this thread.

You won't be the first one to suggest such a thing. 
There are one's here that want to keep a converstion going with me and have no interest in reading my supporting articles, dismissing the thought of reading them out of hand.  That would be an admission that no amont of new information would ever change their minds, and to protect themselves from being threatened buy it, avoid it altogether.

Some of them are short enough to paste here so I'll do that now and see if some who couldn't open the links might have some comments about them.

Thanks Snozzola.


Montclair
In the early 70s I was driving 60 Mercury Montclair with a 430 cubic inch engine. It was a well preserved “grandma” car I bought from a retired couple for $200. One night on a dark desolate highway rabbits were getting crunched sometimes flopping around the wheel-wells as I barreled along at 90 miles an hour. I was tired, it was dark, I was driving entirely too fast, but the adrenalin from the stimulation of the anticipated hits and near misses of the countless rabbits kept me from nodding off.

I kept this pace up until suddenly all the lights on the car went completely out.

So there I was, going 90 miles an hour in the pitch dark. I couldn’t even see the dashboard let alone anything outside. I held the steering wheel straight and braced myself while kicking at the floor mounted high-beam switch, all the while pulling the light switch in and out on the dashboard. I had slowed to about 45 mph when the low beams finally came on.

That was the first warning.

I continued at about 50 mph until my pulse settled down. I then tried the high beams. They worked. I picked up my speed to 60, then 70 and after a while I was again traveling upwards of 85 and 90 mph. I continued again at these speeds for about 10 minutes when, again, everything went black.

That was the second warning.
 
This was not a straight road it curved and was hilly. With all the running lights there was no challenge negotiating at those speeds, but in the total darkness, there was nothing to do but brace, hit the brakes, and hold it straight.
 
Obviously the high beam circuit was overloading. So I drove with only the low beams, and for a while, exercised some common sense and kept my speed down.

My better sense left me once again. So with only low beams I picked up speed to 85 miles an hour with a dramatically shortened view. This was crazy, and I knew it. The excitement however was keeping me from falling asleep, and the rabbits that I would normally see afar off were only in my view for a split second before they were crunched.
 
The third and final warning rang out, but this time is wasn’t a short circuit. It was a shout inside my head:

“THAT’S ENOUGH!”
 
I didn’t just slow down, jammed on the brakes, slowing to about 45 mph, and while my foot was still firm against the brake pedal, a herd of cows came into view. My foot bore down tighter on the brake and though I was only going 45 when I first saw them, I very nearly had to lock up the brakes to avoid hitting the last one clearing the highway! I was not alone!

The spirit possessing Montclair was no Christine.
 
Wayne Harropson
 
PS
 Though I repaired the shorting wire, I thank God for the warning circuit.
Published at FORD here: http://social.ford.com/your-stories/cars/Montclair/my-montclair-was-no-christine/

The brake light switch on my 64 fairlane stopped working,the weather was supposed to be good and I was going to take it out for a nice drive,took my regular car instead.....it rained about 30 minutes after I left the house.......The Raven must have been warning me that the rain was coming by making my 47 year old car have and electrical failure.....Praise the Raven

 Your STORY is RETARDED

[WayneHarropson]

Haven't had time to reply, but looking forward to it.  Maybe Monday.

[JeffPT]

See what I mean by whistling in the dark.  This is your whole argument, you probably could have saved yourself a lot of typing.

No.  Actually that was just a tiny bit of my argument that I still completely stand by.  It is just unlikely that you're recollection of the events is 100% accurate.  That's not a slight on you, it's a common thing that everyone does.  Eyewitness testimony is highly unreliable and you'd know that if you took the time to look it up. Its simply far more likely that you confabulated the story, but again, even if you didn't, that doesn't mean it's supernatural at all.  It can be explained without God, and therefore, can not be used evidence for God.  Just because the events fit with your theological positions, that doesn't mean your theological positions are true.  As an example: A lightning bolt hitting a tree in front of someone's yard isn't evidence for Zeus, although it does fit seamlessly with the theology behind believing in Zeus.  But don't feel bad, ignorant people a long time ago thought lightning bolts were evidence of a deity too.  Maybe one day you'll stop thinking like an ignorant, ancient person too. 

But that's 2 posts now that I've made that you failed to address anything with. I guess I can't blame you for that because it seems you have a track record of doing it for most everyone's arguments here.  But for someone who insists that everyone spends time reading your stupid shit, its extremely hypocritical of you to single out small parts of what people say and dodge the rest.  Why can't you address everything else Wayne?  Did you read it over and realize that I'm right and did that scare you?  Is the reason you dismissed jaime's point by point breakdown of your earthquake story because you couldn't find fault with it? 

Have you ever had a coincidental event happen in your life that you didn't attribute to God? 

Yes, just like everybody.  I don't consider the vision and the earthquake one  of those.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. What specific distinguishing characteristic does your earthquake story possess that make it impossible to be the same sort of coincidence as anything else?  I'm looking for you to do some self-analysis here Wayne.  Could it not be just like all other coincidental events?  You've admitted you could be wrong before.  You've now admitted that coincidences happen that are not the result of God.  Isn't it likely that you're earthquake story is nothing more than pure yet unlikely coincidence? 

Why don't you give me an example of an event that's happened to you that you do NOT believe was connected with God, so we can compare the two. 

Have you ever had a vision in the manner that I described it.

Actually, I've had a better one than yours, and not once did I ever attribute it to a god.  I played college baseball and one afternoon before a game, I had a flashbulb type vision that I was going to be hit in the head with a pitch by a red haired pitcher.  I was half asleep when it happened and it almost threw me out of my chair.  Later that day, I was hit in the back of the hand (which was up near my face).  Same red haired pitcher, same cloud cover, same everything.  The thing about it, however, was that we'd played that team earlier in the year and that same pitcher faced us (I didn't know we'd be facing the same pitcher, however).  Plus, it was cloudy outside before I had the vision.  Highly irregular, and I've not had anything like it since, but I'm absolutely sure that no god was behind it. 

If you wish not to believe my account then just admit right now that you believe that I am lying and get it over with. If I did have the vision, then you and your objections are in trouble, and that's why you are compelled to blast me incessently.

I blast you incessantly because of the dodging, the arrogance and the stupidity.  You can claim it's for other reasons, but we both know that arrogance, dodging and stupidity are valid reasons for blasting you.  You are doing all 3. 

I don't know you well enough to call you a liar, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that you lying about your story is out of the question.  You certainly could be lying, couldn't you?  I mean, you have the capacity to lie, right?  You know what it is, right?  You've done it before, right?  Yeah, you could be lying about the whole thing.  Easily.

Do you know me enough to say whether or not I'm a liar?  Would you just believe me if I told you I had a vision directly from Zeus (over a cold pile of pancakes) that a bolt of lightning would strike a tree in front of my house, and then 2 days later, it did after I said the word 'zap' to one of my children? Sure, I could prove that lightning hit the tree for you, but that's about all I could do to verify the story.  Why should you believe me?  Wouldn't you think I was, at the very least, confabulating the story a bit?  It's absolutely possible that you lied.  People lie all the damn time, especially when they're desperate.  Now, all that being said, move on to the next paragraph before you stupidly respond (which you most likely will) to the mere suggestion that its possible for you to be a liar...

Whether or not you lied is irrelevant, because even if your telling of the event was an exact description of how thing went down, there is a fully natural explanation for it, which makes God completely unnecessary as an explanation.  Given your seemingly desperate need for validation of your God belief, however, I really do think you confabulated it; and until you can back up your story with any sort of evidence, what reason do I have to change my mind?  The thought that you could remember the exact word you were saying at the moment an earthquake hits is pretty ridiculous.  I would bet that the word impact might have been part of your sentence, but not the exact moment.  And you've had a few years to subconsciously embellish your 'vision' story as well (just like the man who tells the story of the fish he caught that was 'this' big the first year and 'T  H  I  S' big a few years later).  Again, your memory isn't as sharp as you think it is Wayne.  Even if you really, really, REALLY think it happened EXACTLY as you say, it probably didn't. 

I'm enjoying it all so it's OK.  I'm glad for your concern about how unpopular I am, but I'm absolutely content with my unpopularity among atheists, so you needn't worry so much.

It's not that you're unpopular.  As of now, you're quite popular because you're one of the only theists coming here.  The problem is that you seem to be of the mind set that you're making people reconsider their positions based on your 'evidence'.  That's just not happening.  You really don't have anything here.  And maybe deep down inside in places you don't like to acknowledge, the fact that intelligent people reject your shit probably scares you a bit.  But I'm sure, when you stop coming here, you'll go back to your circle of friends who believe your nonsense and reinforce your position.  But for us, we'll look back on you as just another guy that most of us shake our heads at.  I highly doubt that will make a dent in an ego as big as yours, but it is what it is. 

You're wrong about everything to do with the Christian God, Wayne.  It's not real.  It's just not. 

[Add Homonym]

WAIT... WAIT... I got one. You won't be able to explain this fabulous coincidence.

I decided to remove the thick skin on my foot, using an Ozito rotary tool   -> https://bnnn72.ssl-cdn.s.mel.secureinf.net/Product-800x800/846bc6a9-ef34-47bf-a3bd-436a4d45e0d7.jpg

As you can see, the tool looks a bit like Obama, because it has a small knob, and when you put a sanding bit on it, it looks about the right size to be Obama's head (very small).

Unfortunately, I ground down the skin a bit too far on my left foot, and this caused a some thin skin, and a bloody fissure to develop on my heel. So, I had to walk around on the tippy toes of my left foot, for the next 5 days.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/08/10/Obama-Obsessed-With-Press-Clippings-Thin-Skinned-About-Unfavorable-Stories

Why did Obama injure my foot, and then decide to impart his personality onto it?

Two days later, owing to the fact that I'd been standing on my tippy toes, my foot arch tendons inflamed, and every day for the last 2 months, I have been wondering how to get rid of the problem. I slowly reaslised that the Crocs I have been wearing, have been pushing up into the arch, as the tendons stretch, and making them sore. I found that when I wore my Australian-manufactured shoes, with no arch support, my feet got better.

http://myaimistruth.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/vacation/

Obama wears Crocs. What are the chances of that? Not only did Obama injure me, but his shoe preferences have been gnawing away at me for the last 2 months.

What has God been trying to tell me all the time?

Obviously that Obama is responsible for destroying USA, by letting cheap shoes and other imports ruin the economy!

OK, I did lie a little bit, to make the amazing story work. My Australian branded Blundstones are manufactured in China as well.  http://www.blundstone.com.au/about/overview

But, I think you see, over-all, it's quite an amazing set of coincidences.

[jaimehlers]

The thing is, coincidences happen, even unlikely ones[1][2][3].  Strange things that are difficult to explain happen too, like your personal anecdotes.  People have been trying to explain these things as the acts of gods (or demons) pretty much for all of human history.  But honestly, when you get right down to it, supernatural explanations don't survive the application of Occam's razor; they require too many assumptions to be viable.

Here, I have a couple of interesting anecdotes of my own.  Once, when I was a kid, I decided not to go on the Philmont Scout ranch trip.  The driver got in a bad accident on the way there; he died and several of the boys were injured.  However, I don't account that as being the actions of a deity (or guardian angel), warding me from harm; simply my desire not to be stuck in a van for several hours with people who tended to give me quite a bit of grief.  Another time, last year, I lost my temper because I spilled a bit of water on my laptop, and the speakers started malfunctioning.  I threw the bottle against the wall hard enough to break it, and just got angrier.  I slammed my fists down on the desk where the computer was, it bounced a bit, then I was about to do it again, and 'heard' a voice yell "Don't!" at me.  That voice was no guardian angel or deity either; simply the part of my mind that wasn't infused with rage trying to keep me from breaking the computer.

The point is, I'm sure everyone has personal anecdotes like that - things that aren't easily explained.  But when you have something that's not easy to explain, you should try to explain it, not take the lazy way out by attributing it to a god.  We've made huge amounts of progress in the past several hundred years because people started actually trying to figure out why those things happened and to explain them.  Our whole way of life is only possible because of that - just to name one example, because we stopped seeing lightning as something thrown by a god (to smite sinners or as a warning) and actually figured out what it was and why it worked, we can make use of electricity.

1.	Take the person who bought a lottery ticket, then had a friend buy another one because he thought he'd bought the wrong sort of ticket, then bought another one when he got back because he thought his friend had screwed up, and ended up with three winning tickets.
2.	Take the man who entered a lottery and won it, like his father had twelve years before.
3.	Take the time there were 110 second-place winners in a single Powerball lottery, traced back to a fortune cookie manufacturer in New York.

[EV]

What has God been trying to tell me all the time?

Obviously that Obama is responsible for destroying USA, by letting cheap shoes and other imports ruin the economy!

Does that mean he is not the Obamessiah?

[Anfauglir]

Why don't you try this: strip away any commentary of what I think God meant by the earthquake incident, and tell me what the incident would have meant to you if it had happened to you.

Okey-dokey: I'm now ready to tell "Anfauglir's Story" of the '87 quake, and what it means to me.

One morning at Paul's Coffee shop as I was staring into my eggs, in my mind I envisaged an event from a fixed perspective.  I couldn't recognise any specific people.  I could hear shouts and noise, but somewhat muffled, nothing distinct.  People were running, screaming, laughing…clearly something was going on in this vision.  There was no sensation of shaking and nothing to indicate why the commotion was happening - there was no apparent damage to the diner, nothing was falling off walls or from the ceiling.  I was still aware of my eggs as this scene played out in my mind - it felt very much like a dream, comparable to a daydream or a memory.

When I snapped back to reality, everything was fine.  I entirely dismissed the vision I had had.

Two days later I returned to the same restaurant, sat in same counter stool and then an earthquake happened - two shocks with a second or so interval in between, lasting in total about five seconds.  I felt entirely in control of my actions during the earthquake.  There was nobody I recognised from the vision, and there were significant differences - I was not restricted to a specific perspective, there were people there in reality that I could not recall from the "vision", I was talking in reality and not in the vision, and I experienced shocks in reality that were not present in the vision. 

It was therefore most deifinitely NOT the case - as some might report - that the reality was "Exactly like the vision".

So what do I think about it?

The vision, as it happened, could have had any "cause" as to the commotion.  Earthquake would indeed be a possibility - but so would (for example) a gunman in the restaurant, a large explosion from outside, a vehicle crashing outside…..any number of possibilities could have caused the commotion in the vision.  With the fixed viewpoint, I could not see what was happening in the retaurant behind me - and with no sensation of shaking in the vision, I didn't immediately think "whoah - earthquake vision!"

But it was interesting - was it a coincidence coupled with some wishful thinking and embellishment, or was it something more?  So I did some research. 

There were three major earthquakes felt in California in 1987, eight in the decade before, and 25 since then (so one major earthquake each year): that's quakes of magnitude 5 or over, it doesn't include the thouands each year that register below that but which are still capable of being felt.  So there was nothing at all unusual in my experiencing an earthquake in that locale.

As I mentioned above, there was nothing in the vision to indicate it was an earthquake as opposed to any other cause.  Certainly there was nothing in the vision that overly troubled me or made me consider it as a vision - if I HAD been troubled, you can be sure there would be no way I would return to the same diner just a couple of days later!  If I thought something was due to happen there, I would have avoided it like the plague.  What if the commotion in the daydream WAS down to a gunman?  Going back could have seen me get killed!  So no - I thought nothing of the daydream at the time, and it was only the fact that a common quake happened a couple days later (in an event that differed markedly from the daydream) that made me - in hindsight - decide there was anything remarkable about my musings at all.

I realised I had to honestly consider whether I would have taken the vision as foretelling any other episode.  Given the lack of information in the vision itself, if I had experienced gun crime in the diner at any point I would have had as good cause to match that episode to the vision.  That said, California has almost twice the level of gun crime as any other state in the US, so there would have been nothing particularly suprising had that been the case either.

...tell me what the incident would have meant to you if it had happened to you.

So what did the incident mean to me?  Very little, truth be told.  A daydream that shared a couple of similarities with later events (which happens quite a lot), but for which the number of differences means I could not regard it in any way prophetic.  What it DID do was give me a very cool story to tell, which (as is often the case with stories told to others) I would probably polish and embellish over time.  It would be "my earthquake story", and possibly in time I might even come to believe it a little myself....but when I look back carefully on it, I can see that there was nothing really inexplicable about the experience at all.

[sun_king]

Wayne, I would have knelt before you if you had dreamed/predicted that the Pope is going to resign.

Earthquakes are fairly common, but a pope resigning comes once in 600 years!

[ParkingPlaces]

sun_king, Wayne is half mormon. They've got a history of great prophets. Like President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Joseph Fielding Smith, who said this in 1961:

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it… The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

They are frickin' uncanny, man!

[pianodwarf]

sun_king, Wayne is half mormon. They've got a history of great prophets. Like President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Joseph Fielding Smith, who said this in 1961:

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it… The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

That statement is even more foolish than it appears, because he said that after we already had sent a man into space.

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne, I would have knelt before you if you had dreamed/predicted that the Pope is going to resign.

Earthquakes are fairly common, but a pope resigning comes once in 600 years!

He was probably tired of hanging around with a bunch of pedophiles.  Who could blame him.  It's a tough gig.

I haven't had time to digest all of what you've written, I intend to do my best.  Particularly for Anfauglir.

If you don't mind, I'll start from the top although I have skimmed through most of it.  I got the dig about the mormon prophet and space.  Pretty funny huh.  That prophet business isn't for the squeemish.  Let me see what I can do to avoid originating the next false prediction.  I can, with absolute certainty proclaim that my predictions of future events do not even approach normal random probability.  But that doesn't mean I'm not currently enrolled in prophet school.  I'll talk a little about that next.  Thanks for your patience.

[screwtape]

I like what Prophet Spencer W. Kimball had to say in 1960 about Native Americans:

“The day of the Lamanites is nigh.  For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.  In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome.  The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation....  At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation, in the same Hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.  There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation.  These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness.  One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.”

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/native.htm

delightsome is a funny word.

[WayneHarropson]

My 5K was great, thanks for asking Anfauglir . 

I never thought I would be relieved to be speaking with you Anfauglir, but after reading your last two responses I have the feeling that we are about to accomplish something here, and I hope others listen in.

I'm particularly happy to talk to someone that might be able to dismiss all this quasi earthquake prediction nonsense you scientific minded people seem to embrace.  It's funny that I'm the one talking about premonitions, and having to beat down the foolishness that man has evolved with an increasing ability predict an earthquake.... separate from science, and without the existence of God.  You thought I was loopy!

Now I detect that some of you moderator types might be taking on the role of kindergarten teacher making sure to protect the hurt feelings of the slower children by telling them they have good arguments, when they haven't a clue.  You may fool them with this patronising, but I have no obligation to protect them from the truth.

I probably should tell you that the earthquake story you have heard is one of three.  God 'placed me' for three consecutive earthquakes to prove himself to me, but the first is the only one of the three that He gave me a hint ahead of time.  And all three it could be said were as much a surprise to me as they would be to any person when they occurred. 

The fact that he gave me a preview of disruption on the first one never translated for me to an earthquake until it actually occurred.  So, I didn't predict anything.  I've been toying with the term retroactive prophet, because of the number of things God inspired me to write that coorelate to the present. 

Now, it could be that he is in fact enrolling me in prophet school here, but I'll make no such claim of knowing the future until enough proof comes in to justify such a claim.
Think of all the goofy things Christian leaders have prophesied that fell flat. (The one from the Mormon leader duely noted and added here after the fact.  I'd like to know if he made the statement after we had been to the moon as pianodwarf mentioned.  I simply chaulk it up to men, obligated by their earthly office to make proclamations and supplying no mor than their best guess to offer as prophecy.  It can be embarrassing.)  I'm not invested in defending any man's prophecy, it it can't defend itself.

I'm tempted to go straight into the Obama thing right here because every spiritual message I got regarding him added up to him being reelected, but that reality was straining against my own hope that it could never happen.  When He did win, I looked back and thought in retrospect kind of a latent "I told you so!". 

Pretty useless. 

The fact is... God told me so, I just didn't like it.  So I ran around like a chicken with my head cut off hyperventilating about the disaster that was about to happen, and I even manned phones for Romney thinking I had to do my part to stop what, I was beginning to realise, was God himself, or I should say Satan having been cut loose.   A number of you have been ribbing me about my not recognising God's will that Obama be president.  You were all right about that, but not for the reason you wish.

Now, let me look at some of your ideas and questions:

So you're all in on this flattery of me about my being a one man earthquake detecting machine huh. 

Nope.  I DON'T think you are.  But then, I didn't for one moment suggest that you were.  Nor did you - you were pretty clear that you weren't (albeit using the incorrect term).

Thank you.  My faith in reason has been restored.

What I asked you, was how DID you determine that?  What makes you so positive that that you have no ability to predict earthquakes?

Though I started by explaining this I'll reiterate, It has never crossed my mind that I could predict them because I have always been certain of the purpose of the vision was a Christian message, not the hope of knowing when to brace for a quake. 

 

After all, you had a vision of one, then later one happened.   Was there a connection, or was there not?  You seem to be pretty vehement that there is not.....but if that is so, what is the point of the story?

 

I can't see where I said there wasn't a connection, there clearly was. The point of the story in bible terms played itself out in the following week.  One of the posts that got moderated out (deleted) included an illustration of Christ returning to earth.  I will attempt a second time to post it here with its story.

You may recall that I mentioned that I joined the LDS Church, having been brought up as an evangelical.  The earthquake was on Oct. 1.  I was baptised LDS Oct 16th following, a Saturday.  In the intrim, the local mission leader invited me to a meal at his home where I recounted for him the wonder of the earthquake.  The elements of the vision, the disruption, the screaming, the laughing, the column of light pouring in the door, caused the mission leader to escort me to his livingroom to look at a piece of art on the wall, and he said that my description of the event makes him think of this picture.

So lets see how the coorelation causation thing applies to a God induced vision.  Please explain.

The point, I suspect, is this - that you are saying that YOU are not the earthquake predictor, but rather than your god is.  And that is where the correlation/causation thing comes in.

That sounds about right.

The evidence that you are presenting to us is that "Wayne experienced a vision of an earthquake.  Later, an earthquake happened".  If we assume the truth of the two events described, then there IS potential for correlation.  I don't think anyone would deny that, given, as I said, the assumption of truth, and with the proviso that to definitely assert correlation we would need to track ALL your earthquake visions and ALL the earthquakes that occurred to see if there really IS a correlation between the two.  That part is the thrust of the statistical analysis that others have been discussing with you. 

A minor correction: I think you understand that the vision was of a disruption.  I completely failed to think of it as an earthquake in the vision.  I honestly think there is a reason for that that other of my writings illustrate.  Just as the Darkknight premonition left me no imagination of impending disaster, neither did the disruption vision translate into an earthquake until it's fulfillment (one 23 years later, one two days later). 

Now either I'm an inept interpreter of very clear prophetic warnings, or God intended me to miss the meanings until his good time.  The latter is the reality, wether or not it was His intent.  However, that imagination has never troubled me, as though I was too stupid to understand something the first time, they are instead just amazing and even playful surprises, and that is how I have taken them.

I noted and will repeat here that of three consecutive earthquakes that clearly had meaning to me, (I can't wait to tell you of the other two), only one had a vision preceding it so we can stop imagining any of this as even a divine scheme to employ me as an early warning system.  what fun would an earthquake be if we all knew it was going to happen anyway?

YOU, however, are further asserting two things.  Firstly, that there is not only correlation, but causation as well - that your incidence of an earthquake vision had an effect on the real earthquake that happened: essentially, that the vision HAD to be followed by the real earthquake (for it to be a vision as opposed to a fantasy).  We are asking, time and again, how you determine the causal effect, how you determine that it is NOT plain chance.  The statistical analysis we have been discussing is an important factor here.

Having a divine purpose, (an illustration of Christ's return) kind of throws all the statistical analysis out the window I would say.  The vision didn't cause the earthquake, God caused the vision, and he may have caused the earthquake as well, which is an interesting thing to think about.  It would be awfully flattering to me that he would have said, I'm going to blow Wayne's mind and cause an earthquake for his sake when he says the word IMPACT.  Alternatively he, being omniscient, knew the precise moment and simply got me up, put me in the car, guided me to Paul's, had those ladies waiting, and a seat open, then gave her the idea to talk about Pat Robertson, had me respond at precisely the time that the earthquake had been scheduled for the millenia.  The second scenario is a little less flattering to me and so that is the one I tend to believe.

But I have to be careful, because I don't want to limit God's power to say that he didn't just line up the earthquake with my words.  He did break the diaphragm on my gas pump spontaneously, (or made sure that the batman movie and that particular Colorado screening of it waited until my gas pump was ready to fail).  See the problem?
The more of these incidents kind of pile up in my dossier, the less apt I am to trouble myself with statistical analysis, and I think you can understand why in my case.  I'm glad for your forensic questioning though and intend to clarify any points that you want.

And secondly, your strong assertion here that YOU did not produce the vision - that YOU do not have the earthquake-detecting skill.  You are quite clear that you do not claim this skill.  And I think you are correct.  But - and this is a serious question - on what basis do you make that claim?  How can you be so sure that you are not the world's first earthquake-detector?  You poo-poo the suggestion, and I do not fault you for doing so....but I think it would be helpful if you explained exactly WHY you have decided to eliminate that possibility before looking for an alternative explanation.  What is it that leads you to think "human earthquake predictor? Impossible!"

It is not impossible, it is just unnecessary as I have explained.

I'm sure you think it is a ridiculous question to ask, and I can quite appreciate why you would think that.  But I promise you, despite the appearance it IS a crucial question - and I'm sure that most people here would agree with me.

That is crucial to an atheist maybe but not to me.  Enough with the silliness.

Edited to say:
Moderator, could you please edit thi post to place the graphic in the text where i attempted to put it, and PM me with a tutorial.  I looked in help and couldn figure it out.  It jsut ends up[ on the bottom.

[screwtape]

Now I detect that some of you moderator types might be taking on the role of kindergarten teacher making sure to protect the hurt feelings of the slower children by telling them they have good arguments, when they haven't a clue.  You may fool them with this patronising, but I have no obligation to protect them from the truth.

You will make moderation a self-fulfilling prophecy by keeping this up.  Dispense with the insults and get to your point. 

[12 Monkeys]

What a surprise first it was one earthquake now its three,why would God feel the need to prove himself to you Wayne Why do you feel YOU are so important? Why would it take so many visions for you to get the message?

[12 Monkeys]

And more important what are some of your visions telling you about Obama in the next four years? please share Prophet Wayne,so that I may prepare myself. (and so I can return 4 years from now and see how accurate you are)

[nogodsforme]

Wayne is a "retroactive prophet"! I love it. 

Not a regular old everyday prophet who hears the voice of god and then tells us what is going to happen. Nooo. Those are a dime a dozen, and are always proven wrong.

"See, at the time I did not know that the vision was actually about an earthquake, but then the earthquake happened and I knew that was what the previous vision had been about. No use to anyone, but hey, I'm just a retroactive prophet, bro. God likes me best."

Wayne thinks being a "retroactive prophet" makes him special, not realizing he has just written a job description anyone can meet. Not to mention a cool folk rock album title.

Plus he believes in the African deity Eshu.

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne is a "retroactive prophet"! I love it. 

Not a regular old everyday prophet who hears the voice of god and then tells us what is going to happen. Nooo. Those are a dime a dozen, and are always proven wrong.

"See, at the time I did not know that the vision was actually about an earthquake, but then the earthquake happened and I knew that was what the previous vision had been about. No use to anyone, but hey, I'm just a retroactive prophet, bro. God likes me best."

Wayne thinks being a "retroactive prophet" makes him special, not realizing he has just written a job description anyone can meet. Not to mention a cool folk rock album title.

Plus he believes in the African deity Eshu.

And more important what are some of your visions telling you about Obama in the next four years? please share Prophet Wayne,so that I may prepare myself. (and so I can return 4 years from now and see how accurate you are)

Obama is as much a symptom as he is the problem.  I think my Obama is America's Idi Amin retro-prophecy is continuing in it's fulfillment in ways I don't want to imagine. 

Why has God chosen me for special treatment? because he can do anything he wants to anybody he wants any time he wants.  I can't be certain that he won't take me out at any moment.  (He's given me that hint more than once) but He has surprised me with what I consider proof that he had made his choice before I was born.  There is this recurring 12-13 thing that has followed me for decades that I didn't understand, but now here we are at the cusp of 12-13 now aren't we?  All I can say is...Hold on to your butts!

I have some errands to run and intend to go back up the line and catch up to earlier responses later.

[wheels5894]

Obama is as much a symptom as he is the problem.  I think my Obama is America's Idi Amin retro-prophecy is continuing in it's fulfilment in ways I don't want to imagine. 

Wayne, since you are suggesting Obama is like Idi Amin I think you need to justify that statement by elaborating on it. Given what a dreadful man Amin was and the numbers of people he killed and drove out of his country perhaps you would list what you think is wrong with Obama alongside the actions that Amin did so we can see juts what you mean.

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne is a "retroactive prophet"! I love it. 

Pretty funny huh.  as long as I'm always predicting what has already happened, I won't be wrong about it.  It's a cool concept, you have to admit.  Now God does have a sense of humor doesn't he.

I do want to empasise a rally important rescource to back up the Idi Amin Claim.  You can watch the movie called Dreams from My Real Father on Netflix as well as Agenda (By Bowers) 
Agenda is currently streaming online as well here: [http   ://vimeo.com/52009124]  Edit the HTTP yourself because I don't think it will play in this window.



I promise to catch up later.

[wheels5894]

Come on, Wayne, you expect us to read piles of your writings and now expect us to watch over an hour of movie. Come on, we aren't all completely without anything to do.

You tell us in your words what this is all about.