Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 39994 times)

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #638 on: February 01, 2013, 08:49:17 AM »


I thought this was relevent here...

@Wayne

You really dont see how youre imposing your wants and dreams onto this god-template you have created? Really? You dont see how you simply interepret things the way you want to and never consider that perhaps YOU are wrong? That perhaps yahweh (if he existed) felt that Obama is the one to lead this country out of the darkness the politicians you like, put us is in. This 'discussion' is feeble at best.


Oh, and you mad doggy?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #639 on: February 01, 2013, 09:24:35 AM »
I'm not always sure when you are tongue in cheek screwtape, but I assume you are kidding here. 

I'm not.

...when it becomes bad news. 

That's a matter of perspective.  Many xians - and I would not be shocked to learn you count yourself among them - are looking forward to a final nuclear war because they think that will herald a new age in which jesus H comes to earth to rule.  And as for a second Obama presidency, I don't see that as a bad thing at all.  And maybe you should consider the possibility that was yhwh telling you your priorities and values are completely backward.

It's like, every time there is a hurricane or earthquake or tornado, some butthole televangelist declares it to be god's judgment on the nation for not murdering homosexuals, or for witchcraft, or for not making atheism illegal.  But the overwhelming number of these events take place in solidly bible-thumping areas.  The gay marriage capital of the world - Massachussetts - never, ever seems to have natural disasters like that. No judgment from yhwh.

So to me, the only conclusion is the would-be prophets have the message completely backward.  It is god punishing xians for their horrid values. (of course it isn't god doing anything.  They are just natural phenomenon with no meaning or intent.)  They (the xians) are just too wrapped up in ego and pride and delusion to get the message.  When Louisianna throws Piyush Jindal into the gulf with an anchor tied to him, restores abortion providers and enacts gay marriage, maybe then the hurricanes will abate. (of course, even if Louisana got its act together there will still be hurricanes.  Nature cares not for righteousness.)

My personality can enter into it without being the controlling mechanism your definition requires.

It cannot.  And it's not my theory. It is the theory of former member DTE.  He was a theologian who came to his senses and became an atheist.

Let me ask you this - would you allow women to speak in church?

They do it all the time in my church, I've benefitted from it many times...

Then you and your church have engaged in SPAG.  You have made a decsion based on your personal preferences, assuming your opinions and values are yhwh's. 
Since I know you like 1Corinthians...
Quote from: 1Cor14:34-35
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

And to back that up, 1 Tim...
Quote from: 1Tim2:11-13
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Anything else is SPAG.  Obviously, in this case, as well as many other, SPAG is good.  You are using better morality than what it in the bible.  You will find it typical that modern morality is superious to biblical morality.  That is part of the overall point I am making with you.  That is because we've learned some things over the last 2000 years.  Which begs the question - why bother with the bible?

Your brevity speaks for itself.  I wouldn't get too deep here if I was you, that superior thing is quite precious. Just remember this next time you accuse me of dodging.

It's not a dodge Wayne.  Your weird ramblings about Lincoln had no relevance to the conversation at hand.  I did not want to go off on a tangent.  If you would like me to talk about it, copy your statement in context and start a new thread.

I'm glad you backed off the SPAG there, I didn't think you could defend your shotgun in the face of reality.

If that is the message you got, then you completely misunderstood possibly everything I have written in this entire thread.  I did not back off at all.  I said straight up Lincoln engaged in SPAG.  Maybe you should reread my post, more slowly this time.

Lincoln pooped, too.

You lost me, I guess it's that superior thing you have going.

It looks like I lost you long before that. That is not a barb intended to dig at you.   

I'm with Lincoln all the way.  We say just, you say not.  It's two against one, you lose.

That's not how it tallies.  I've not had the chance to present my case to Abe, so he doesn't get a vote here.  Plus, he's been dead for 160 years. And why does it seem like you are whistling past the graveyard?  Lincoln is a red herring.  Address my arguments or concede them.

I know you have read the second inaugural sometime in your life. 

Actually, I've not.  I had memorized the Gettysburg address at one point, though.

My simplification is so unbelievably profound here that it just busts your chops now doesn't  it.

no.  It saddens me that you think you can boil the point of Job down to one sentence and ignore everything else I wrote.  It tells me you are barely reading what I am telling you and you certainly are not trying to understand.  It tells me our conversation has become a playground stand off to you, an exchange of Your Mama jokes.  You are not engaged. 

I won't walk you through the sequence again. I know you understand it. The self aggrandizing part is a cheap shot and a dodge.

It's not.  It is rather the point.  You are operating under the delusion that you are so special that yhwh, the omnipotent creator of the universe, is sending messages to you, Wayne Harropson, a contractor, one man out of 6.5 Billion on one planet that circles a star in a galaxy that has 300 billion stars in it, in a universe that is 150 Billion light years across and holds at least 100 Billion galaxies.   

Does that put too fine a point on how special you think you are?  You are less to the universe than a single electron orbiting a single hydrogen atom in your body.  Yet you are getting visions and messages from God.  Right.

It is not me.

But it is you.  Other people experience similar things and do not assume they are receiving messages from the Almighty.  That would be egotistical.  Things have happened to me that I cannot explain. For example, one day when I was home alone, my cell phone turned on all by itself.  I cannot explain it.  I could say it was yhwh, or the devil or goblins or faeries or aliens.  Or I could say it was some natural phenomenon, some quirk of electronics I do not understand.

I chose the latter as my answer.  It does not require me to be be special in any way.  It requires I acknowledge my limitations.  You, on the other hand, chose the answer that puts you on par with Elijiah and Moses.

Here's another quickie.

This is what I mean.  You fail to understand you are not the hero of The Story.  There is no Story. In your mind it is always all about you.

...you don't even have to acknowledge a Christian's evidence.

You've not brought evidence.  You've brought your weird and egocentric interpretations of dreams and coincidences. None of which has any bearing on xianity.  Even if they were genuine visions or premonitions, they could be a natural phenomenon or they could be related to other supernatural, non-xian entities.  You've not connected all the dots.  You have only jumped to your own favored conclusions in a rather unconvincing manner.

the absolutely stunning reality that God inspired me to write it,

But that is a leap.  You may have been inspired but you have no idea whether it was god, baal or your own overactive imagination.  You are pointing to these things and saying "viola.  Proves xianity."  I am saying xianity undermines itself long before your stories come into the picture, so discussing them is putting the cart ahead of the horse. 

The world is just chalk full of injustices,

We're not talking about the world.  We are talking about yhwh.  Remember?  The god who is supposed to be the embodiment of justice?

the amazing contributions god minded people from there have given the world. 

?  what's israel given the world?  I mean, besides another apartheid state?


Severe mercy?  What the heck does that even mean?  It sounds completely selfcontradictory.
 

Some verse in II Hesitations.  I don't know, I heard it somewhere

II Hesitations.  That's funny.  I had to look that up.   But seriously dude, how do you get dressed and find your way to work in the morning?


I beg.  I'm not kidding. 

You think I didn't? 

And there are many witnesses of GW praying privately like here:

Don't care.  Bush is a war criminal but could probably avoid the gallows by reason of mental incapacity. Still, I'd like to see him hang.  So, you're not getting any traction with me by talking about Bush.   

This is the obvious dodge I had a "premonition" about earlier on this page. 

what dodge are you talking about?  You asked me a question and I answered.

Did you see that picture in my article

I have not been able to access any of your articles. I have clicked the links on different computers with different browsers and they never came through.  So, no.

edit - I assume the lack of access I mentioned is due to my equipment or software, not Wayne's.  I did not mean to imply otherwise.  I was only trying to say that I at least tried, but was unsuccessful.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:31:10 PM by screwtape »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #640 on: February 01, 2013, 01:49:41 PM »
Hi Wayne

I am writing in green to indicate I have assumed my role as a moderator.  In a post above you quoted a reference:


I had to look that up:
Quote
Special pleading, ..

I very much appreciate that you took the time and effort to do the research yourself.  I would like to remind you though, that when people reference other material or sites, it should be properly attributed or linked. In the future, please make sure to include the attribution.  Thanks.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #641 on: February 01, 2013, 06:41:34 PM »
Roger on the references.  I'll be careful not to argue with the green text.  I'm a little distracted with other writing but will resume as soon as i can pay proper attention.  Let me know if you get the pdf thing resolved. And what if anything you were able to read.

I spend more time now than ever wrapping those quotes properly.  If I were able to look over one of your shoulders to see how you make the process flow, I'd be way ahead.

I have yet to use II Hesitations 3:34 while giving a talk in church, I'd like to get it on video so I can catch people looking for it.  Maybe I am the trickster.

Thanks screwtape.

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He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #642 on: February 01, 2013, 11:30:50 PM »
Wayne, why did you not respond to my posts a few pages back? Those took some time. You have been dialoguing with others AFTER my posts but skipped over my responses. Can you please respond?

Secondly, earlier Jeff asked you the question, "How do you know you can trust the author?" [pertaining to the bible] and you answered:

Quote
Faith I guess.

So you're entire belief system (in the bible) hinges on an "I guess..."?? Do you not see your circular reasoning here? The bible itself is what others assumed in order to SELL you the very idea of "faith" (i.e. - the bible itself is what tells you of this "faith" thing). So basically, you believed the bible because someone else read it and believed it (i.e. - took it "on faith" b/c it just said to - it just claimed it) and now you are doing the exact same thing as those who assumed it and sold you the idea. Do you not know that people of other religions do the same things with their kids, and their kids (later in life) claim to be just as "sure" as you?? How are you able to separate fact from fiction if you are relying on faith? Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is unreliable.

Have you ever explored (not just thought about) but explored, the possibility that you could have been mislead about the bible and about "faith" (and that you are practicing confirmation bias)? Why do you need to take things on faith when faith is just being gullible? Do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are actually true? If so, why are you lowering your standards of evidence for your religion but keeping them high for other religions and other things in the world? Why are you not applying a consistent standard of evidence to all of life? Do you not see this hypocrisy?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 12:15:08 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #643 on: February 02, 2013, 03:24:44 AM »
Worry not Median - Wayne has missed a couple of my posts too.  I'm sure he'll get to them in time.  The questions of mine he still hasn't addressed are:

1) We had an exchange which went:

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian
So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?
No that would be bad.

I've asked Wayne to explain the apparent contradiction in his statements.  Either the ending of a life is a good action according to his philosophy, or a bad one.

2) Wayne has also said:

It would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil.

...which seems pretty absolute.  However, he wishes to say that in his god's case, that does not apply.  I've asked him to explain why - bearing in mind that he has also said that he is unable to explain why his god does what it does.  So I've asked by what measure he is able to reverse his normal ideas of morality to excuse a being whose actions he is unable to explain.

I suspect the answer to the second question will ultimately boil down to "Faith, I guess" as Median points out.  And to a point, if that works for Wayne based on his life experiences, then fair enough.  But I'm wondering whether Wayne will be able to accept that for people like us, who have NOT had the benefit of the many "interventions" he has experienced, we would naturally come to the opposite conclusion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #644 on: February 02, 2013, 03:28:37 AM »
Wayne, why did you not respond to my posts a few pages back? Those took some time. You have been dialoguing with others AFTER my posts but skipped over my responses. Can you please respond?

I am so sorry I havn't given you all the answers you deserve .

Quote
Secondly, earlier Jeff asked you the question, "How do you know you can trust the author?" [pertaining to the bible]
Quote

It's a great question that I have gotten close to answering, but probably not directly to you. I have had many incidences in which the text of the bible confirmed what I experience.  That does not occur with all scripture.  If it was ever proven to me that there were erroneous parts of the bible as we know it, I would have to wheigh whether any of the proven false portions changed anything in my knowledge, but I rather doubt that anything will be proven to reverse that which I have affirmed from my own spiritual affirmations.  The bible mentions a unicorn.  I think that is a mistranslation.  It doesn't cause me to through the whole book out and for only one very important reason.  My faith is spiritually affirmed.  I can guarantee you that the Spirit of God breaths life into scripture in every case that the affirmations have come directly to me.  If mistakes have been made in transcripton, my faith is not in the book, the letters, the ink, the paper, or even the text that very well could be misleading and even totally misunderstood by me.  My faith is in the spirit that guides me personally to those parts of the scripture that are meant for me.  so it is faith and it is spiritually discerned.  I'm not throwing the baby out because of some tainted bathwater.  I am not a bible scholar. My faith does not require that of me.  God is a spirit, and they who wourshop, worship in spirit and in truth, not in the letter.

Quote
So you're entire belief system (in the bible) hinges on an "I guess..."??
Sorry if I was ambivelent in a response. See above for clarity.
 
Quote
Do you not see your circular reasoning here? The bible itself is what others assumed in order to SELL you the very idea of "faith" (i.e. - the bible itself is what tells you of this "faith" thing). So basically, you believed the bible because someone else read it and believed it (i.e. - took it "on faith" b/c it just said to - it just claimed it) and now you are doing the exact same thing as those who assumed it and sold you the idea. Do you not know that people of other religions do the same things with their kids, and their kids (later in life) claim to be just as "sure" as you?? How are you able to separate fact from fiction if you are relying on faith? Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is unreliable.

The god I worship can spiritually guide me through all the possibilities of error in what has been presented me over a lifetime by his very direct and personal leading.  I can even survive being wrong about some parts of it because God is not requiring perfect understanding, just perfect trust.  It would be idolotrous to even trust in my understanding, someone elses understanding or in a not always perfectly accurate text.  I am not an idolater.
The parents and sunday school teachers taught me what they understood to be the truth and I absolutely trust the pureness of their intent and that spirit that guides all true believers.  what little I did learn while I was young returned to me in marvelous affirmations of the love of God, so I was taught very well indeed.

Thanks so much for asking.
Quote
Have you ever explored (not just thought about) but explored, the possibility that you could have been mislead about the bible and about "faith" (and that you are practicing confirmation bias)? Why do you need to take things on faith when faith is just being gullible? Do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are actually true? If so, why are you lowering your standards of evidence for your religion but keeping them high for other religions and other things in the world? Why are you not applying a consistent standard of evidence to all of life? Do you not see this hypocrisy?

I'm going to leave you with my previous response along with my well thought out answer to the confirmation bias issue.  You may not have gotten to see it because of a moderator mixup or a deletion.   Please take the time and read it and let me know if it helps answer your questions.  I may have skipped over screwtapes last set of comments to answer so I apologise. I'll respond when I have time.  Thanks for the questions, they're good ones. The link to Confirmation bias HELL follows:  http://tinyurl.com/BiasHell 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #645 on: February 02, 2013, 03:44:53 AM »
Worry not Median - Wayne has missed a couple of my posts too. 

I answered the best I could regarding death caused by man different than that caused by God. Why don't you just ask me, just one more time in this clean new window what I've missed.

I'm teaching a Boy Scout Merit Badge Class in the morning and It's almost one o'clock.  It could be as long as monday at this point.  Thanks.

You may have noticed I added a link some of what I've written.  Take a look below.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 03:48:48 AM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Online median

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #646 on: February 02, 2013, 11:46:52 AM »
Worry not Median - Wayne has missed a couple of my posts too.  I'm sure he'll get to them in time.  The questions of mine he still hasn't addressed are:

1) We had an exchange which went:

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian
So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?
No that would be bad.

I've asked Wayne to explain the apparent contradiction in his statements.  Either the ending of a life is a good action according to his philosophy, or a bad one.

2) Wayne has also said:

It would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil.

...which seems pretty absolute.  However, he wishes to say that in his god's case, that does not apply.  I've asked him to explain why - bearing in mind that he has also said that he is unable to explain why his god does what it does.  So I've asked by what measure he is able to reverse his normal ideas of morality to excuse a being whose actions he is unable to explain.

I suspect the answer to the second question will ultimately boil down to "Faith, I guess" as Median points out.  And to a point, if that works for Wayne based on his life experiences, then fair enough.  But I'm wondering whether Wayne will be able to accept that for people like us, who have NOT had the benefit of the many "interventions" he has experienced, we would naturally come to the opposite conclusion.

By this post I am reminded of the question of goodness. Wayne, do you think that your God is all good? If the answer is yes, by what standard are you making that judgment? If you say the bible, the next question is, why do you accept the bible (and why do you think you can judge your God as "good" but not the other way)? If you say, "faith, I guess" then you have now entered into circular reasoning. Saying "I accept the bible on faith" is fundamentally no different from saying "I accept the bible because I accept the bible" (b/c the very idea of "faith" was given to you by that same bible). So then you have given no reason at all. We are asking why accept ANY of it as authoritative at all (including the "faith" idea which was also take from IT).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #647 on: February 02, 2013, 01:47:20 PM »
Worry not Median - Wayne has missed a couple of my posts too. 

I answered the best I could regarding death caused by man different than that caused by God. Why don't you just ask me, just one more time in this clean new window what I've missed.

Why don't you spell it out, nice and clearly.  It shouldn't be a long and complex argument, surely - just a quick couple of lines that explains why something that would be evil for aman to do becomes good when done by your god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #648 on: February 02, 2013, 02:35:06 PM »
Here's my guess - if god does something it is good by definition but what a man does is bound by god's rule - which are right by definition!

Whoops, was that too circular?
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #649 on: February 02, 2013, 02:42:28 PM »

I have had many incidences in which the text of the bible confirmed what I experience.  That does not occur with all scripture. 

In what way are you at all qualified to judge or determine that your interpretations of your subjective personal experiences are in fact confirmations of the things you already believed in the bible (i.e. - since it seems you already are vested in this belief and are looking to confirm it)? Wayne, this is another case where you are not telling us the whole truth. Jeff (and myself) are asking you HOW exactly you know these authors are reliable, and all you've done is point to things that have come AFTER your presupposition regarding the bible. These "incidences" you claim to have experienced (which are based in your INTERPRETATION of the facts - based in your assumptions about your religion) are post facto. That is, you already believed BEFORE those things took place. So how can you claim that these are honest answers about HOW you know these things are true when you are clearly slanted toward confirmation (i.e. - you assumed the bible from the outset)?

Again, you STARTED with your conclusion instead of doing honest investigation. You already admitted earlier that these "incidences" are being FILTERED through your bias. Isn't that backwards Wayne? Shouldn't you have started with "I don't know", and then went about doing an honest, disinterested, critical investigation?


If it was ever proven to me that there were erroneous parts of the bible as we know it, I would have to wheigh whether any of the proven false portions changed anything in my knowledge, but I rather doubt that anything will be proven to reverse that which I have affirmed from my own spiritual affirmations. 


Oh the irony!

Notice how you have just contradicted yourself. First you say, "If it were ever proven to me..." but then you go about setting up a wall which is impossible to surmount (i.e. - rendering your position unfalsifiable). It's like saying, "If you could ever prove me wrong I might change my mind, but it's impossible to prove me wrong" or "Prove it to me but you can't prove it to me." This is intellectual dishonesty. It demonstrates that you are NOT open to any new ideas (i.e. - that you have closed your mind to reason and counter-evidence that is inconvenient to your worldview) and that you really, truly, DO NOT care about truth and whether or not your beliefs are actually true. You're just looking for comfort in what your parents raised you to believe.


The bible mentions a unicorn.  I think that is a mistranslation.  It doesn't cause me to through the whole book out and for only one very important reason.  My faith is spiritually affirmed.  I can guarantee you that the Spirit of God breaths life into scripture in every case that the affirmations have come directly to me. 

Wayne, this false "guarantee" doesn't have any meaning because you've already exposed yourself as someone who is not even in the slightest bit open to the possibility that he could be mistaken (i.e. - you have closed yourself off from good reasoning, critical thinking, and sound evidence). How can you demonstrate this "guarantee" when you've already shown that you are willing to just SPIN (and rationalize) the bible in whichever direction that fits your presuppositions about it?

If mistakes have been made in transcripton, my faith is not in the book, the letters, the ink, the paper, or even the text that very well could be misleading and even totally misunderstood by me.  My faith is in the spirit that guides me personally to those parts of the scripture that are meant for me.  so it is faith and it is spiritually discerned.  I'm not throwing the baby out because of some tainted bathwater.  I am not a bible scholar. My faith does not require that of me.  God is a spirit, and they who wourshop, worship in spirit and in truth, not in the letter.

This is more circular reasoning Wayne, and it's really surprising that you can't see your irrational thinking. Without the PRESUMPTION of the bible you wouldn't even have the idea of faith in Jesus, the "holy spirit", or any of it. When you say "the spirit that guides me" you are assuming the bible (i.e. - what it is you need to prove). But you can't assume your position, you need to demonstrate it. That is how honest investigation works.
Just accepting the claims that an old book makes, because your parents taught it to you at an impressionable age, and then going about the world trying to fit every piece of data into that presumption is simply dishonest. It's quite backwards and should be abandoned as absurd and useless for determining fact from fiction.

The god I worship can spiritually guide me through all the possibilities of error in what has been presented me over a lifetime by his very direct and personal leading.  I can even survive being wrong about some parts of it because God is not requiring perfect understanding, just perfect trust.  It would be idolotrous to even trust in my understanding, someone elses understanding or in a not always perfectly accurate text.  I am not an idolater.

But this is more circular reasoning. You have to assume there is this "God" who "guides" you. You have to assume Proverbs 3:5 (the "lean not on your own understanding" passage - assuming the bible). And you have to assume your interpretation (and your theology) on "idolatry" - as if there is such a thing. Again, you are not telling us the REAL reason why you are believing and defending this stuff in the first place (i.e. - because you assumed it from the outset and are now heavily emotionally invested - just like the other religions of the world). This is just erroneous thinking.


The parents and sunday school teachers taught me what they understood to be the truth and I absolutely trust the pureness of their intent and that spirit that guides all true believers.  what little I did learn while I was young returned to me in marvelous affirmations of the love of God, so I was taught very well indeed.

There it is! You just trusted them and then went about confirmation. First, pureness of intent is not a pathway to truth. Just b/c someone "intends" to tell you the truth doesn't mean they actually have it. So you JUST TRUSTED these people, but every person of every religion in the world does that. It's not a reliable pathway to discovering truth (especially about such a huge question as this).

Second, and again, these "affirmations" you claim to have had came about AFTER you already ASSUMED (and accepted) what these people told you. So you weren't/aren't going about investigating the facts honestly. You were/are practicing confirmation bias. You are actively TRYING to make all your experiences (some more odd than others) FIT into the assumption you made from your childhood. Muslims do the same thing. Again, it fails for both of you. It's not a reliable way of separating fact from fiction. If you disagree, then please answer. How can you claim that your method of separating fact from fiction is reliable while holding that other religions (such as Islam) are not (when they are using the same reasoning processes you are - just believe and go try to prove)??

Wayne, if you are actually honest with yourself, and others, you will have to admit that faith is not a reliable pathway to distinguishing fact from fiction.

I'm going to leave you with my previous response along with my well thought out answer to the confirmation bias issue.  You may not have gotten to see it because of a moderator mixup or a deletion.   Please take the time and read it and let me know if it helps answer your questions.  I may have skipped over screwtapes last set of comments to answer so I apologise. I'll respond when I have time.  Thanks for the questions, they're good ones. The link to Confirmation bias HELL follows:  http://tinyurl.com/BiasHell

The URL you provided doesn't work. It says, "Error (404)We can't find the page you're looking for. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home."


 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 03:12:52 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #650 on: February 02, 2013, 08:45:03 PM »

I have had many incidences in which the text of the bible confirmed what I experience.  That does not occur with all scripture. 

In what way are you at all qualified
God, in his amazing wisdom and mercy has created a program whereby his blessings, guidance, understanding can be achieved without qualifying in any academic way. 

I make no self qualification claims of authority personally.  So in as simple of terms as i can think of, I make no claims of being qualified, nor am I required to be qualified academically. 

An academic answer is what you seek because you think that should be required.  It's not. 

I have to return to the question this thread asks.... To validate my belief in God.  It cannot be validated academically. 
I'm not seeking to validate it academically.
If I had the chops to do so I would, but it's not worth the time if I would not gain anything from the persuit.



The shear volume of your questioning is going to put me in a position where I'm going to dissapoint you because I can't type fast enough or diagram your sentences enough to answer, let alone understand what would satisfy you.  I'd love to try though, just can't.  Try to reduce the questions to maybe two or three in a post  each separated by a paragraph.  Compounded questons like this one:

In what way are you at all qualified to judge or determine that your interpretations of your subjective personal experiences are in fact confirmations of the things you already believed in the bible (i.e. - since it seems you already are vested in this belief and are looking to confirm it)? Wayne, this is another case where you are not telling us the whole truth. Jeff (and myself) are asking you HOW exactly you know these authors are reliable, and all you've done is point to things that have come AFTER your presupposition regarding the bible. These "incidences" you claim to have experienced (which are based in your INTERPRETATION of the facts - based in your assumptions about your religion) are post facto. That is, you already believed BEFORE those things took place. So how can you claim that these are honest answers about HOW you know these things are true when you are clearly slanted toward confirmation (i.e. - you assumed the bible from the outset)?


I can't diagram it in my mind, sorry.


I reworked the link to Confirmation Bias HELL  here:
http://tinyurl.com/BiasHelll



 
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He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #651 on: February 02, 2013, 09:00:08 PM »
Why don't you spell it out, nice and clearly.  It shouldn't be a long and complex argument, surely - just a quick couple of lines that explains why something that would be evil for aman to do becomes good when done by your god.

I have done my best.  It has been asked.  It has been answered to the best of my ability.  It is a mystery above my paygrade.  Please look at my response to median about the academics of it all here.  It might just be an unaswerable question in your case, I only wish I could satisfy you.

I have written a whole slew of stories of how this non academic thing works that Validates God for me in the links page below, where I give you the opportuity to have me committed.  They are all absolutely true stories about a God that sends very mysterious messages like riddles, that I sometimes figure out right away and sometimes don't for twenty years. 

In a very real way, I don't really figure anything out, the riddle gets solved by another surprise.  So, you see, it's not me, and its not my qualifications, I'm just going along for the ride.

Being with you all is part of the ride and I'm grateful for it.  Thanks for keeping the questions easy enough for a carpenter, I'm a simple guy.



The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #652 on: February 02, 2013, 09:16:32 PM »
Here's my guess - if god does something it is good by definition but what a man does is bound by god's rule - which are right by definition!

Whoops, was that too circular?

Hi wheels.

Take a look at 1 Timothy 1:6  The vain jangling thing in it reminds me of what god would say I'm doing if I tried to complicate something that he meant to be simpler.  High and mighty religious people do it all the time and I just might be dodging the whole thing by keeping it simple.  And like it or not that means trust in God and avoid the confusions of questioning his competence.  It again is as simple as faith after a desire to be obedient.

Take a look at palemustang and tell me if I'm crazy or not.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #653 on: February 02, 2013, 09:17:12 PM »
Why don't you spell it out, nice and clearly.  It shouldn't be a long and complex argument, surely - just a quick couple of lines that explains why something that would be evil for aman to do becomes good when done by your god.

I have done my best.  It has been asked.  It has been answered to the best of my ability.  It is a mystery above my paygrade.  Please look at my response to median about the academics of it all here.  It might just be an unaswerable question in your case, I only wish I could satisfy you.

I have written a whole slew of stories of how this non academic thing works that Validates God for me in the links page below, where I give you the opportuity to have me committed.  They are all absolutely true stories about a God that sends very mysterious messages like riddles, that I sometimes figure out right away and sometimes don't for twenty years. 

In a very real way, I don't really figure anything out, the riddle gets solved by another surprise.  So, you see, it's not me, and its not my qualifications, I'm just going along for the ride.

Being with you all is part of the ride and I'm grateful for it.  Thanks for keeping the questions easy enough for a carpenter, I'm a simple guy.
Its not unanswerable. You just refuse to see the folly in your line of thinking. Out of one side of your mouth you say you cant judge yahwehs actions then before the page refreshes you are doing exactly that. Its dishonest.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #654 on: February 02, 2013, 09:21:15 PM »
Q: "Sir, why is it wrong for this man to steal, but right for you to steal?"

A: "Oh, that's one of life's unanswerable questions.  Sorry."

That works, right?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #655 on: February 02, 2013, 11:39:19 PM »


My personality can enter into it without being the controlling mechanism your definition requires.

It cannot.  And it's not my theory. It is the theory of former member DTE.  He was a theologian who came to his senses and became an atheist.

He would not entertain that theory if he had had an earthquake vision two days before an  earthquake that translated into a play on the theme of god's judgement.  His personality, like mine would NOT be the controlling mechanism, period.  End of story.  It is a different paradigm and he may have fallen away from faith by battling faith academically.  If you  still know him have him read my stuff.

Let me ask you this - would you allow women to speak in church?

......Then you and your church have engaged in SPAG.
 

I may be a victim of spag being played out by others in this case, I'm going to give that one to you.  When Women become preachers over men, I am always dubious, and the biblical principle supports my apprehensions though I tolerate and concede to its existence.  I may be attracted to the LDS Church because the standard is held up there to a greater degree than in other places, and so made me comfortable to join. 

Which begs the question - why bother with the bible?


As you can tell, my spiritual sense confirms the need for that very principle to be reinforced.  I'm not in a position to be a perfectionist on this or I wouldn't be worshipping anywhere, but I'm content that the rule is acknowledged in spirit, if not in the letter.  If You have some knowedge of the bible, you know that the letter kills. 2 Corinthians 3
 

It's not a dodge Wayne.  Your weird ramblings about Lincoln had no relevance to the conversation at hand.  I did not want to go off on a tangent.  If you would like me to talk about it, copy your statement in context and start a new thread.


You are going to have to talerate quips about the founding fathers that support my arguments with you.  Your refusal to acknowledge the profound influence men like Lincoln causes me to be suspect of your depth. 

If that is the message you got, then you completely misunderstood possibly everything I have written in this entire thread.  I did not back off at all.  I said straight up Lincoln engaged in SPAG.  Maybe you should reread my post, more slowly this time.


Engaging is not controlling. You clearly softened your demand for your magic acronym to stick to  Lincoln.  I'm saying personality or not god's intervention controlled, Lincoln resigned himself to it.

I've not had the chance to present my case to Abe, so he doesn't get a vote here.  Plus, he's been dead for 160 years. And why does it seem like you are whistling past the graveyard?  Lincoln is a red herring.
 

Shallow screwtape. Your contemporary arguments don't trump because of a 160 year gap.  That's the red herring. I missed the graveyard thing..  It's OK, I don't need it explained.

Actually, I've not (read the second inaugural).
 

That explains your shallow SPAG argument.   
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

It's not.  It is rather the point.  You are operating under the delusion that you are so special that yhwh, the omnipotent creator of the universe, is sending messages to you, Wayne Harropson, a contractor, one man out of 6.5 Billion on one planet that circles a star in a galaxy that has 300 billion stars in it, in a universe that is 150 Billion light years across and holds at least 100 Billion galaxies.


The volume of my work in the links below, and one particular article describes a tour I took of that very universe.  Commit me if you can, it was as real for me as it was for John Adams.  I wasn't self aggrandizing anything when it happened.  It's here: http://tinyurl.com/JohnAdamsMilkyWy   

Does that put too fine a point on how special you think you are?  You are less to the universe than a single electron orbiting a single hydrogen atom in your body.  Yet you are getting visions and messages from God.  Right.

If you must put it in those terms then I must concede. Except me being special, I can be chosen without being special.  Moses was an apprehensive leader, and didn't like public speaking, yet God chose him.  I would say Pharaoh would be 'special' with the attributes of amazing talents within himself, Moses from out himself.  Please don't take me to task on my attempt here to differentiate but yes my experience is extraordinary, and yes, He is doing it.  If you ever hear of me taking personal credit, other than satire like just having fun with the Eastwood picture, which is absolutely hilarious, you have my permission to take me out and shoot me.  (The sequence of my assembling these weird song and picture things are outside of me I could never dream this up it is so absurd with regard to my personality).

You've not brought evidence.

Sometime along the way you are going to acknowledge (if only to yourself) that a statement like this from you is less than valid for someone that has not (Been able to?) read what I have submitted in full.  You wish for it to not qualify as evidence within your academic standard, I say my evidence is being compiled (not by me acting alone) to circumvent academics.  When you ar finally able to access those files and address them, level the charge if you wish, but only then will you be able to make that statement anything but a dodge.

You've not brought evidence.  You've brought your weird and egocentric interpretations of dreams. [/quote]

I cannot disassociate my person from them, they are often fun, and flattering, in that for some reason they are being bestowed upon me, but I'm not personally responsible that they happen.

What's Israel given the world?  I mean, besides another apartheid state?

Now, this is where I get to have some fun.  I created a web link just for you.  It is written by a Muslim.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/WHY%20ARE%20JEWS%20SO%20POWERFUL.pdf
Your apologies are not necessary, how could you know this if you haven't read the Lincolns inaugural.

GW praying privately like here:

Don't care.  Bush is a war criminal but could probably avoid the gallows by reason of mental incapacity. Still, I'd like to see him hang.  So, you're not getting any traction with me by talking about Bush.

Whoops, I meant the other GW, the Washington one. And amazingly, you cared so little to read it that you overlooked that, though pasted in for you, the story was not ambivalent about which GW.  Have you trained yourself to avoid controverting evidence to such a degree as this?
Bad form screwtape.   

I will again paste it in from the post in the same way I gave it to you the first time.

Temple said that in the absence of a chaplain Washington would read the Scriptures to his troops and lead in prayer. He also said that “on sudden and unexpected visits into his (Washington’s) marquee, he has, more than once, found him on his knees at his devotions.”
http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/George-Washington-Did-He-Pray-at-Valley-Forge-EXTENSIVE.html
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #656 on: February 03, 2013, 02:24:47 AM »
Thanks for keeping the questions easy enough for a carpenter, I'm a simple guy.

I guess that's why you can't answer for me what was and is one of the most crucial questions I have about your god.

....explain why something that would be evil for a man to do becomes good when done by your god.

It is a mystery above my paygrade.  Please look at my response to median about the academics of it all here.  It might just be an unaswerable question in your case, I only wish I could satisfy you.

Seems you aren't even willing to try.  I thought you were here at the beest of your god, Wayne?  Is the point to try to convince people of the goodness of your god?  If so, you're failing, time after time.

I have written a whole slew of stories of how this non academic thing works that Validates God for me.....

Good for you Wayne.  But, once again, its all about YOU.  How about trying to write something that has any value whatsoever for someone else?

I'm nearly done here Wayne, as I'm getting rather tired having to ask the same vital questions over and over and getting nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders from you.

So let's make it clear.

If you/your god want me to come to your faith, then answering that key question above to my satisfaction is the minimum that needs to happen.  Can you understand that?  You are failing to answer - and therefore you are pushing me away from your god.  Is that what you want?  If not, you need to try harder Wayne.

If you can't do it, then you can't do it.  But you need to be quite clear in your mind that your failed attempt here is yet another push that a Christian has given me away from their god.  And you may want to ask yourself what kind of god is happy for his believers to do that.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #657 on: February 03, 2013, 07:54:39 AM »
Asw you suggested, Wayne, I consulted 1 Tim 1:6 adn I wondered how you thought it applied to the question in hand - i.e. Why is it that anything god does it right but if a man does it it might be wrong.

Quote
Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

Now I suggested that maybe it was that whatever god does is right juts because god does it. Is that right? Just a yes or no will do.

(Quoted from here)
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #658 on: February 03, 2013, 09:52:16 PM »

God, in his amazing wisdom and mercy has created a program whereby his blessings, guidance, understanding can be achieved without qualifying in any academic way. 

I make no self qualification claims of authority personally.  So in as simple of terms as i can think of, I make no claims of being qualified, nor am I required to be qualified academically. 

An academic answer is what you seek because you think that should be required.  It's not. 


Wayne, do you know what circular reasoning is? Because you keep trying to use it here, over and over. You keep saying "God" this or "amazing blessing" that, and then when asked how you know your interpretation is "God" you ultimately wind up appealing to something which you derived from the bible (your first assumption that precedes all of this). It's a vicious circle. Again, you are being irrational and trying to justify it, rationalize it, and SPIN it so that it doesn't sound invalid, when in fact it is. Case in point, we asked why you trust the biblical authors and you answered, "Faith I guess." But why do you need faith? That idea ASSUMES your bible!

Now, your second irrational (logically invalid) argument above comes in the form of a Straw Man. I did NOT say that you need some "academic" qualification. I asked you what qualification you have AT ALL in order to be able to rightly make a conclusive determination that your interpretation of said facts is, in fact, accurate. Simply being a human being, or assuming your deity in advance ("My God gives it to me") is circular - and tried by nearly every other religion on the planet. I asked you earlier if you had explored (not just thought about but explored) ANY other possible interpretations of your claimed/alleged "miracle" stories. You dodged the question, didn't answer it, and then just started saying things to the effect of "I'm not going to be able to satisfy your questions."

This whole thing comes down to a question I asked you earlier, that is, do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true?? With the assumptions you have made, and the irrational arguments you keep making in order to try and justify those assumptions (confirmation biases) it certainly does not seem, at all, like you actually care (Where is your critical thinking?). Your arguments/actions are quite indistinguishable from those of other superstitious religious people who were taught their religion from a young age, and now want to defend it.

I have to return to the question this thread asks.... To validate my belief in God.  It cannot be validated academically. 
I'm not seeking to validate it academically.
If I had the chops to do so I would, but it's not worth the time if I would not gain anything from the persuit.

Now you are contradicting yourself again! You said early on in this discussion (or at least you acted like) you COULD in fact validate your belief in "God" (i.e. - with solid evidence and sound reasoning) about why God won't heal amputees. But you didn't give us any evidence. All you gave was your personal subjective interpretation of your alleged miraculous experiences (which were never tested, are not falsifiable, and are quite open to counter-interpretation). Evidence would be a video of you praying for a dead man (dead for 3+ days) and having the man rise, moving a mountain, or drinking snake poison and not dying (as Jesus supposedly said you WOULD do!). Read your bible Wayne (Mark 16 etc). These alleged miracles you keep citing are NOT AT ALL what your bible speaks of. You need GREATER miracles than Jesus, not LESSER ones.


The shear volume of your questioning is going to put me in a position where I'm going to dissapoint you because I can't type fast enough or diagram your sentences enough to answer, let alone understand what would satisfy you.  I'd love to try though, just can't.  Try to reduce the questions to maybe two or three in a post  each separated by a paragraph.  Compounded questions like this one:


I know your answers are going to disappoint me, because I used to try the same fallacious reasoning (and confirmation bias) that you are trying here. But you ought to be really disappointed in yourself! That is to say, your own credulity and willingness to slant all evidences in the direction that suits your presuppositions should cause you to be disappointed in yourself enough to withhold making judgments about these occurrences until further study and critical examination has been done. You are practicing intellectual dishonesty b/c you don't live your life this credulously (with a salesman at the door, or nearly anything else - except your faith).

The question remains - Why are you trusting "faith" instead of evidence and good reasoning?

Would you accept the claims of other religions...on faith, like you did with the bible? It's surprising how you can't see that you are abandoning critical thinking here, and doing so quite hypocritically.



I can't diagram it in my mind, sorry.


So you have a belief, which you assumed was true from childhood (one that you are always looking to confirm), which you believe based on an "I guess...", and which you can't articulate or "diagram" in your mind - and this is a belief which you base your ENTIRE life upon? Wayne, can you not see how utterly irrational (and self contradictory) you are being?? If you have a belief that you can't articulate, is based on an assumption (an "I guess" from childhood), and have never allowed critical examination to take place then you have an IRRATIONAL BELIEF! Further, if you have this belief but can't articulate it, then how is it a belief at all?!


Wayne, how is this any different from superstition?



Trying to insulate your belief system from any critical examination is extremely dishonest. Can you not see that?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:11:49 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #659 on: February 03, 2013, 10:55:29 PM »
quote from Median:
Quote
Wayne, how is this any different from superstition?


because it needed to be emphasized and repeated.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #660 on: February 03, 2013, 11:59:42 PM »
Now I suggested that maybe it was that whatever god does is right juts because god does it. Is that right? Just a yes or no will do.

Let me quote Lincoln from the second inaugural I have mentioned before.
Quote
".....as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

http://www.godweb.org/lincoln.htm

Here's my one word answer.
YES

Thanks wheels, that was easy.

Here's where it gets interesting, and challenges my mind.
Look in the first chapter of James where it says you shall not attribute evil to God.  He apparently has left that to his bad cop, Satan who does nothing without God's knowledge, the knowledge of a Guy who created everything and controls everything, including Satan.
That's my best understanding of it anyway.  I recommend you beg your way into God's prescribed favor, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is what I did.  You know, that "foolishness of preaching" stuff.  It is meant to be irritating to the intellect, and I'd say it is meeting it's objective.  (These are all new testament principles I've referenced to scripture in past posts.)

Any takers on the have me committed challenge yet?



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He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #661 on: February 04, 2013, 12:13:37 AM »
Trying to insulate your belief system from any critical examination is extremely dishonest. Can you not see that?

Belief system is an interesting term, like I went out and bought one off the shelf. 

I don't mind if it gets critically examined.  I believe it because it happens to me the way it happens to me.  If it happened to you, you would believe it too.  There is absolutely no issue of honesty involved.  I'm not lying about what happens so why is that dishonest?

For me it's not a belief system, it is a reality.

Take a look at the surrounding posts and how questions are posed.  I know you are passionate, but I'm going to limit responses for the reason I already explained.  Does not compute.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:33:33 AM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #662 on: February 04, 2013, 12:31:53 AM »
quote from Median:
Quote
Wayne, how is this any different from superstition?


because it needed to be emphasized and repeated.

There is crossover I suppose because it is all spiritual.  The real trick is to discern the real from the impostor. Satan is an impostor and is capable of churning up a lot of superstition to divert from truth and keep people from God.

I don't want to repeat it here but some superstitions among the primative had truth hints inbedded in them to prepare them for the truth when it finally came.  I might be misnaming it superstition in that case, because it was for them a truth, that affirmed the real truth.  So that would be a crossover.
Very interesting to think about.

See now that is a great question. 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #663 on: February 04, 2013, 12:37:59 AM »
Its not unanswerable. You just refuse to see the folly in your line of thinking. Out of one side of your mouth you say you cant judge yahwehs actions then before the page refreshes you are doing exactly that. Its dishonest.

I'm certain of some things, but not arrogant enough to suggest a know all things.  No dishonesty involved.
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #664 on: February 04, 2013, 12:53:40 AM »
Here's where it gets interesting, and challenges my mind.
Look in the first chapter of James where it says you shall not attribute evil to God.  He apparently has left that to his bad cop, Satan who does nothing without God's knowledge, the knowledge of a Guy who created everything and controls everything, including Satan.
That's my best understanding of it anyway.

Hi, Wayne.

I don't wish to interupt the existing debate any more than necessary, but your comment happened to grab my attention.

If god created satan, controls satan and has knowledge of eveything satan does as you have stated... then that would make satan a proxy of god, and god an accessory before the fact for any evil perpetuated by his "bad cop". Therefore, by your own comment, evil can and should be attributed to your god.

For example, Hitler never directly murdered any jews, gypsies or homosexuals during WWII, but it was on his orders and with the full knowledge that those serving underneath had carried out his commands. So, would you or would you not attribute evil to Hitler?
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #665 on: February 04, 2013, 12:58:55 AM »
Its not unanswerable. You just refuse to see the folly in your line of thinking. Out of one side of your mouth you say you cant judge yahwehs actions then before the page refreshes you are doing exactly that. Its dishonest.

I'm certain of some things, but not arrogant enough to suggest a know all things.  No dishonesty involved.
Its outright lying. Utmost dishonesty.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #666 on: February 04, 2013, 01:06:59 AM »
Quite simply Wayne, how can this be true:

Satan is an impostor and is capable of churning up a lot of superstition to divert from truth and keep people from God.

If this is true:

Satan does nothing without God's knowledge, the knowledge of a Guy who created everything and controls everything, including Satan.

????
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