Please validate your belief in your God

[WayneHarropson]

One of these two guys need some feedback from you Wayne. Presumably it has deep meaning but everyone is mistakenly looking at it as a coincidence. I'm pretty sure you can figure it out and let the news media know what is actually going on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6762605/Two-retired-policeman-with-same-name-ended-up-side-by-side-in-hospital.html

I'm going to doubt only one portion of that story from Britain, but it does little to diminish its wonder.  The administrators saw the coincidence and assigned them to the same room, other than that, it is fantastic.  And ofcourse, like that chair at the coffee shop counter for me, it just may have been the one open bed and if so, that is really cool.

[WayneHarropson]

You are right when you say that three dead people out of the billions on the planet is not that many. Would you say that "three lives is not that many" if we were talking about three teenage girls having first trimester abortions that day? That would also be god's will, just like an earthquake killing three people.

Or is it only god's will if it was late term miscarriages of babies that three married Christian women really wanted?

You live in a strange world, Wayne.

Strange is right, and you are here with me aren't you? 

[DumpsterFire]

Now,  If I were God, and really wanted to drive a point home to the military infrastructure that I'm not smiling on them, I would punk them with so many bizarre coincidences to expose how utterly defenseless they are without my favor that their knees would rattle and their jaws would go slack.

So, by extension, the fact that the 911 attacks were carried out successfully is indicative of god's approval of and favor for Al Qaida and the Taliban. Considering your ultimate goal seems to be an American theocracy, I suppose that makes sense.

[ParkingPlaces]

One of these two guys need some feedback from you Wayne. Presumably it has deep meaning but everyone is mistakenly looking at it as a coincidence. I'm pretty sure you can figure it out and let the news media know what is actually going on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6762605/Two-retired-policeman-with-same-name-ended-up-side-by-side-in-hospital.html

I'm going to doubt only one portion of that story from Britain, but it does little to diminish its wonder.  The administrators saw the coincidence and assigned them to the same room, other than that, it is fantastic.  And ofcourse, like that chair at the coffee shop counter for me, it just may have been the one open bed and if so, that is really cool.

They probably assign rooms in alphabetical order. I, of course, was more interested to know which of these two men is supposed being talked to by god and told about the terror attack of 2019?

[12 Monkeys]

Now,  If I were God, and really wanted to drive a point home to the military infrastructure that I'm not smiling on them, I would punk them with so many bizarre coincidences to expose how utterly defenseless they are without my favor that their knees would rattle and their jaws would go slack.

So, by extension, the fact that the 911 attacks were carried out successfully is indicative of god's approval of and favor for Al Qaida and the Taliban. Considering your ultimate goal seems to be an American theocracy, I suppose that makes sense.

No you got it wrong....God hates fags,equal rights,feminism,un-gaurded schools,anti-gun nuts,Atheism and ALL other things the "progressives" have changed about the baseball and apple pie loving red-neck America....thats why the attack was allowed to happen

[ParkingPlaces]

One of these two guys need some feedback from you Wayne. Presumably it has deep meaning but everyone is mistakenly looking at it as a coincidence. I'm pretty sure you can figure it out and let the news media know what is actually going on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6762605/Two-retired-policeman-with-same-name-ended-up-side-by-side-in-hospital.html

I'm going to doubt only one portion of that story from Britain, but it does little to diminish its wonder.  The administrators saw the coincidence and assigned them to the same room, other than that, it is fantastic.  And ofcourse, like that chair at the coffee shop counter for me, it just may have been the one open bed and if so, that is really cool.

They probably assign rooms in alphabetical order. I, of course, was more interested to know which of these two men is supposed being talked to by god and told about the terror attack of 2019?

Oh, and by the way, when Roger Moore was offered the part of James Bond many years ago, his phone number ended in 007. Was that a warning that Queen Elizabeth was going to serve at least 40 more years or something?

And is it a coincidence that both of these coincidences happened on the same island? What does that mean?

And the one I really like. Everyone here thinks your coincidence stories are ridiculous. What are the odds? That all of us would agree I mean. Astounding. That must mean something too.

[Willie]

What is a SPAG

SPAG is shorthand for "self projection as God". It refers to the tendency of many believers to define God, at least in part, as a projection of themselves. If the believer hates gays, then God hates gays. If the believer condones slavery, then God condones slavery. etc. This is sometimes rationalized by picking bits of the bible that fit while either ignoring or rationalizing away any that conflict.

[screwtape]

People called GW Bush a liar

He was.

and attributed amazing feats of fantastical diabolical skulduggery to him

I do not know anyone who gave Jr any credit for complicated evil plans.  He was aided and abetted - or just manipulated - by the most evil being to ever inhabit North America.  Dick Cheney.

and then called him an idiot.

He is.

They couldn't make up their minds.

I'd like to know who this mysterious "they" is.  Them? 

Meh.  It doesn't matter really, because GWB Jr is not the topic.  I was not talking in abstractions or ambiguities.  I was talking very specifically about you and that dingus Barton.

The guy was a victim ... alternatively allow it to finish its mission. 

blah blah blah.  Not the point.

Oh, sorry, the subject was that I'm likely just a garden variety liar that just can't help myself and so my word can't be trusted. 

No, Wayne.  That was not my point.  Try again.  This time, read what I wrote.

Pretty scary huh.

What is scary is that you are walking the streets, a free man, with liberties and the privilege of voting.  You should be in a straight jacket somewhere, getting the proper medical care you need.

What is a SPAG

I thought you would never ask.  Self Projection As God.  It means every person's idea of god is just a projection of his or her own personality.  It is a funny thing.  No one who believes in god disagrees with god.  The god loves the things they love, hates the things they hate, punishes the sins they loathe and forgives the sins they make.  Funny coincidence, that. 

Yet somehow, all those god believers disagree with each other.  How is that possible?  Everyone seems to intimately know what god wants, yet no one agrees on what that is?  Turns out, how you interpret the bible is a Rorschach test - it says more about you than it does the bible.

I'd link to the guy who coined the term, but right now the old forum is inaccessible.

His promises might not seem fulfilled in the material world, I'm just going to see how it goes in eternity.  I'm resigned that his fulfillment means is up to him.

No, Wayne.  The moral of Job is clear.  Xians love to talk about the old covenant.  Do you know what a covenant is?  It is a pact, like a contract.  And in the old covenant, yhwh promised wealth, protection and prosperity in exchange for the jews following his laws.  Quid pro quo.  It was all about what happened in the material world.  For the jews, there was no "eternity" or "hereafter".  You never hear about them entering the kingdom of heaven.  When they died, they died.  They went to the underworld - Sheol.  The rewards of worshiping yhwh were in the here and now.  How does Job begin?

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

bold mine.  He was blameless and upright.  By the old covenant, he kept up his end of the bargain.  yhwh reneged.  And amazingly, yhwh still demanded through bullying, intimidation and threat of violence that Job continue to hold to the laws and worship even though the covenant was broken by yhwh. 

So if I were you, I wouldn't count on yhwh to do squat for you.

I'm being a bit flippant I know but I did quote a scripture that says exactly that,

I know that Wayne.  You are not the first bible believer with whom I have spoken and had that verse quoted at me.  And that makes my point even more valid.  We are talking about what the bible says, not some loopy interpretation of yours.  When I point out I have been abandoned by god, your iron age reference agrees.  There is no arguing with me on this one, Wayne. My point is supported by the bible.

I wonder where this supposedly all good, just and merciful god is hiding, because he is not to be found in the bible.

My report stands as stated.

My point had nothing to do with your report.  My point had to do with the horribly unjust god you worship. Your god is like a teacher who only teaches some of the class and then murders the rest for not passing the test.

For good or for bad, I hope you can forgive me that I cannot, and likely shall never have the option of concluding that He doesn't exist, no matter what should happen to me. 

Wayne, if I believed in yhwh, I would reject it completely on moral grounds.  The way yhwh behaved in the OT was abominable.  If I reversed the words "God" and "Satan" in the bible, and read it to someone who'd never read it before, they would think Satan (yhwh, actually) was completely evil.  I also cannot accept the NT because it says my salvation comes at the expense of someone else.  I reject that as morally reprehensible.  Other people cannot pay for my crimes.  There is no justice in that.

So maybe what I am trying to show you is not that you should stop believing that yhwh exists, but that the moral thing to do would be to reject this monster.  How about you just start there and we'll get to showing his nonexistence later?

Maybe you'd like to read about that one here.  http://tinyurl.com/PaleMustang

Thanks, but no.  I do not find your tales convincing.

My observed reality confirms many bible beliefs, even in a scary way.

No, Wayne.  You completely missed the point. 

I have only the obligation to proclaim what the supernatural god of the bible has told me,

Putting the cart before the horse.

I'll let scripture answer that one for me.

That answers nothing.  My point stands.

Would you like to bow in prayer now?

No.  I would like to have you committed to a psychiatric hospital.  You are dangerous.

[Astreja]

Would you like to bow in prayer now?

Not to your alleged god, Wayne.  Perhaps later this evening I'll raise a glass of mead to Allfather Oðinn (Hei, Dad! *wave wave wave*), or chat up Ma'at or Athena or Lakshmi.

To be frank with you, your brushing aside of 3 lost human lives as "not that many" was quite appalling and a definite turn-off.  If that's what your beliefs have done to your moral compass and your sense of empathy, I'm going to stay as far away from those beliefs as I possibly can.

[Anfauglir]

1) Your god had the means and opportunity to save the lives of three people.

First off, three people aren't that many people.....

Oh, well that makes it okay then.  Its okay to take no action to save lives because people die all the time.  I'm sure that will be a comfort to you if your daughter is ever in danger and nobody stops to help.

I want to know exactly why your god chose to do what he did.
And I want to know exactly how you define the actions it took as "good".

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian

So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?  If I did nothing and let her die, when I could have saved her, that would be good?

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

  I'm glad you are not talking about me.  You know I had no idea.  God knew, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about it.  He's God after all.  We would like him to worry about things at the level that we see them but that just isn't the case, and that is obvious. 

I can understand your frustration but this dilemma didn't start with my vision, and it won't end with our discussion about it.  To put it in perspective three deaths in an earthquake is about as weak of an example of this dilemma as can be imagined, what about 911.  Now that is dramatic.  What about tsunami's? Let's rattle some global disasters off.  This is peanuts.  I'm not diminishing your quandary I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.

Wayne, are you actually incapable of answering a direct question?  It sure seems that way.

Let me try again.

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

Not you, not your god.....just ME, in that hypothetical I described.  Simple question Wayne - why are you so scared to answer it?

[Anfauglir]

So yhwh has hidden his himself from us.  How can we be blamed for not believing?  It might help you to know that I was once xian.  I spent several years trying to find yhwh.  He apparently did not want me to find him.  Either that, or he just does not exist.  The latter made more sense to me.

For good or for bad, I hope you can forgive me that I cannot, and likely shall never have the option of concluding that He doesn't exist, no matter what should happen to me.  I think that is why I was sent here to talk to you all.

If that is REALLY what you believe, then you need to stop your general preaching and actually ENGAGE.  Because at the moment, you are not presenting any case for your god.

What you ARE doing is presenting the same sad old image of a Christian that we have seen time and time again.  I've lost count of the Christians who come here, all sure they have been given the word by their god to come convert us, all sure of their own reasonings.  And yet.....all they can do is slip and slide, and dodge, and spout scripture.  And eventually, they all leave, shaking their heads about how blind we must be not to see the glory of their god, never understanding that with their evasions and truth-shading and refusal to engage, all they have done is reinforce our view that their god does not exist, and that they have no answers that are not smoke and mirrors.

If you truly, honestly believe you were sent here to bring us to god, you need to change your approach.  Because the evasions and shifting goalposts simply aren't going to work.

[WayneHarropson]

1) Your god had the means and opportunity to save the lives of three people.

First off, three people aren't that many people.....

Oh, well that makes it okay then.  Its okay to take no action to save lives because people die all the time.  I'm sure that will be a comfort to you if your daughter is ever in danger and nobody stops to help.

I'm flattered that you think that I could tell you why God does a specific thing, or why anything ever ever dies.  We would have to start with the imagination that nothing or no one should ever die and then start blaming someone or something if it should ever happen.  You are wearing yourself out from that perspective and I can't help you with it.

If you haven't gotten used to the fact that people die, I can see why you keep needling me about it, but aperantly my God has proved in my case that just because three people die in one part of the state, it isn't incumbent upon me to forgo the enjoyment of an obviously unrelated ironic event.  God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  If during that quake my daughter or someone I knew died, I wouldn't be laughing.  Mourn over every single death.... somehow, I think unnecessary.

I want to know exactly why your god chose to do what he did.
And I want to know exactly how you define the actions it took as "good".

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian

So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?

No that would be bad.

If I did nothing and let her die, when I could have saved her, that would be good?

Are you accusing me of this?  I hope not.  If you are talking about God doing it then he has that privilege doesn't he.  I'm over it, and I recommend you get over it too.
 

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

  I'm glad you are not talking about me.  You know I had no idea.  God knew, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about it.  He's God after all.  We would like him to worry about things at the level that we see them but that just isn't the case, and that is obvious. 

I can understand your frustration but this dilemma didn't start with my vision, and it won't end with our discussion about it.  To put it in perspective three deaths in an earthquake is about as weak of an example of this dilemma as can be imagined, what about 911.  Now that is dramatic.  What about tsunami's? Let's rattle some global disasters off.  This is peanuts.  I'm not diminishing your quandary I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.


Wayne, are you actually incapable of answering a direct question?  It sure seems that way.

Let me try again

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this question.  I would say that it would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil, and that would apply in many other cases as well.  So yes you would be evil.  But you want to apply that standard to God, and you are just wasting your time.  But I get your drift, you are angry that God allows bad things to happen.

Not you, not your god.....just ME, in that hypothetical I described.  Simple question Wayne - why are you so scared to answer it?

I didn't mean to ignore it, I wasn't afraid to answer it, I just have a more resigned attitude to what God wants to do, or allows to happen and that attitude makes me less interested in the question than you are.  Sorry.

[WayneHarropson]

So yhwh has hidden his himself from us.  How can we be blamed for not believing?  It might help you to know that I was once xian.  I spent several years trying to find yhwh.  He apparently did not want me to find him.  Either that, or he just does not exist.  The latter made more sense to me.

For good or for bad, I hope you can forgive me that I cannot, and likely shall never have the option of concluding that He doesn't exist, no matter what should happen to me.  I think that is why I was sent here to talk to you all.

If that is REALLY what you believe, then you need to stop your general preaching and actually ENGAGE.  Because at the moment, you are not presenting any case for your god.

What you ARE doing is presenting the same sad old image of a Christian that we have seen time and time again.  I've lost count of the Christians who come here, all sure they have been given the word by their god to come convert us, all sure of their own reasonings.  And yet.....all they can do is slip and slide, and dodge, and spout scripture.  And eventually, they all leave, shaking their heads about how blind we must be not to see the glory of their god, never understanding that with their evasions and truth-shading and refusal to engage, all they have done is reinforce our view that their god does not exist, and that they have no answers that are not smoke and mirrors.

If you truly, honestly believe you were sent here to bring us to god, you need to change your approach.  Because the evasions and shifting goalposts simply aren't going to work.

I'm doing my best.  If you dont see my detailed response it is that the moderator may have culled a few of my posts.  There are a few that didn't appear in pink this morning that I published yesterday. Maybe he just hasn't caught up and they simply dissappear from my view until he approves of them. Ask Parking Places about it. 

[JeffPT]

I'm flattered that you think that I could tell you why God does a specific thing, or why anything ever ever dies.

Um... we do that because you (in your immense arrogance) have done exactly that on several occasions.  Didn't you arrogantly claim that God caused the gas leak at the movie theater precisely because he didn't want you and Dana to see the Batman movie?  Isn't that a claim to understand why God did something?  In fact, you've said before that God gives you these coincidences in order to show you his omniscience.  That's another claim to know why God did something, isn't it?   It's not flattery; it's picking apart your incredible, inflated ego.  The funny thing is that we all know you're wrong, so the egoism just comes off as comical. 

We would have to start with the imagination that nothing or no one should ever die and then start blaming someone or something if it should ever happen. 

This would be true ONLY if you believe in God and believe God is good.  If you abandon that idiotic notion, none of the problems with it arise.  Death just becomes a natural part of life and blame is only important in cases where death is caused by some sort of responsible party. 

Do you really see a problem (if God existed) with nobody suffering and nobody dying?  Do you really think that would be awful? 

If you haven't gotten used to the fact that people die, I can see why you keep needling me about it, but aperantly my God has proved in my case that just because three people die in one part of the state, it isn't incumbent upon me to forgo the enjoyment of an obviously unrelated ironic event.

It's very funny to hear you use the words 'obviously unrelated ironic event'.  Do you know that is the perfect description for everything about your gas leak stories?  Except for the fact that they were ironic.  They weren't.  They were just unrelated events. 

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 

We are capable of experiencing fear and love.  God is completely unnecessary to understand how we got both. 

If during that quake my daughter or someone I knew died, I wouldn't be laughing. 

Yes, but someone else (only someone similar to you) would be laughing Wayne.  How would that make you feel? 

So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?

No that would be bad.

Why would it be bad?  If he killed your daughter, could you not say God wanted your daughter to die? 

If I did nothing and let her die, when I could have saved her, that would be good?

Are you accusing me of this?  I hope not.  If you are talking about God doing it then he has that privilege doesn't he.  I'm over it, and I recommend you get over it too.

How would you determine whether or not God wanted your daughter to die?  It seems to me that if your daughter died, God wanted it to happen regardless of who pulled the trigger.  Daughters die every single day all over the world.  If God didn't want them to die, he wouldn't let them die, would he?   Would you blame the human for pulling the trigger or God for not stopping the act from happening?  Couldn't God stop it? 
 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this question.  I would say that it would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil, and that would apply in many other cases as well.  So yes you would be evil.  But you want to apply that standard to God, and you are just wasting your time.  But I get your drift, you are angry that God allows bad things to happen.

Why are you not allowed to judge God as bad?  You are using your normal judgement to conclude that God is good, and you see the good things in the world as verifying factors for it.  But when it comes to bad things, you ignore that normal judgement and give God a free pass as if that's just the way it is.  No Wayne.  You're completely biasing the situation when you do that and you know it.  If what you interpret to be the 'good things' are evidence that God is good, then bad things are evidence that God is bad.  End of story.  But here's the kicker.... If there were no God in charge of all of it, then good and bad things are simply a matter of perspective.  You said that your daughter dying would be bad, but those 3 people who died in the earthquake are no big deal.  From my perspective, your daughter dying would be no big deal, but my sons dying would be unbearable.  Perspective... 

We aren't angry that God allows bad things to happen because God isn't real.  Bad things happen to everyone and good things happen to everyone.  What is that REALLY evidence for?  The most likely situation is either A, a completely uninvolved deity or B, no deity at all.  The only deities that make NO SENSE at all are the ones that are all good or all bad. 

[nogodsforme]

You are right when you say that three dead people out of the billions on the planet is not that many. Would you say that "three lives is not that many" if we were talking about three teenage girls having first trimester abortions that day? That would also be god's will, just like an earthquake killing three people.

Or is it only god's will if it was late term miscarriages of babies that three married Christian women really wanted?

You live in a strange world, Wayne.

Strange is right, and you are here with me aren't you?

Are you going to answer the question about whether three deaths (of unwanted fetuses, of wanted babies, of unknown random people) matter?

[12 Monkeys]

was there only one theater in town?......if there was,as there is in most towns(more than one) how could God stop him from going to another theater?

 I was on vacation in a small seaside town in Oregon.....there was 3 there

[caveat_imperator]

Are you going to answer the question about whether three deaths (of unwanted fetuses, of wanted babies, of unknown random people) matter?

Not if it yet again shows his beliefs as laughable.

[WayneHarropson]

What is scary is that you are walking the streets, a free man, with liberties and the privilege of voting.  You should be in a straight jacket somewhere, getting the proper medical care you need.

What is a SPAG

I thought you would never ask.  Self Projection As God.  It means every person's idea of god is just a projection of his or her own personality.

I don't necessarily disagree with this where it might apply. 

It is a funny thing.  No one who believes in god disagrees with god.    The god loves the things they love, hates the things they hate, punishes the sins they loathe and forgives the sins they make.  Funny coincidence, that.

 I would call this a hysterical exaggeration.  I absolutely don't always agree with God.  He has made judgements and decisions that I would have never made.  I still don't know why some things happened that I didn't like.  For example, I hold him responsible for foisting Barack Obama's re election on the United States, which he could clearly have blocked.  The day after election day was devastating.  I flew my flag upside down for weeks. (That is an interesting story by the way)...  But his ways are not my ways, and I have to live with it.  Am I as angry as you at him?  Maybe.  Does it do any good for me to be angry at him? Probably not.  If you read my Idi Amin story I said how I thought Obama should be deposed, and I still wish it could happen, but in time I came around to understand his purpose in it.  It still isn't pleasant and I can tell you for a certainty that your silly self projection theory doesn't apply in any way shape or form with me.  Nice try with your incessant slanders, I know they make you feel superior, but after a while you just look silly.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln agreed with watching all those Americans die?  I can tell you that he hated it.  It wrung him out.  I think that by the time it was all over James Wilkes Booth did him a big favor, and fulfilled his final wish that he spoke in the ear of Mary that night in the theater.  and I quote:

"He said he wanted to visit the Holy Land and see those places hallowed by the footprints of the Saviour. He was saying there was no city he so much desired to see as Jerusalem," Mary Todd Lincoln told the Springfield, Ill. pastor who presided at Abraham Lincoln's funeral.  She explained that the 16th president told her of his desire moments before he was fatally shot in Ford's Theater on April 14, 1865."

So I suppose Lincoln was just a SPAG.  Screwtape, please do give me an answer on this one.  I really want to hear you slander Lincoln and the God he served.  Right here, right now, I double dare ya.

Yet somehow, all those god believers disagree with each other.  How is that possible?  Everyone seems to intimately know what god wants, yet no one agrees on what that is?  Turns out, how you interpret the bible is a Rorschach test - it says more about you than it does the bible.

All the confusion, disagreements, and conundrums you find among believers are an interesting study, but none of it gets you off the hook.  If you are so much smarter, then you are more responsible for your idiocy.  God is just. 
 

His promises might not seem fulfilled in the material world, I'm just going to see how it goes in eternity.  I'm resigned that his fulfillment means is up to him.

No, Wayne.  The moral of Job is clear.

I'm glad you have it all figured out.  I really do.  You might be wrong in your conclusions but the fact that you have studied it will give you the tools you need if you enter into the new covenant and see how it all ties together, and in your case you might understand it even better than I will.  You say it's clear,  I say we see through a glass darkly. 

Let me over simplify the whole thing. 
(Job 1:10) says: "Should we accept only good from God and not accept evil?"   Just like the example of Lincoln, the bible isn't just mamby pamby stuff.  It's dead serious. Take a look at my visions and dreams (like having my leg amputated so that I would stop by and visit WWGHA) and then tell me again that I'm a SPAG.  See my point?

I'm being a bit flippant I know but I did quote a scripture that says exactly that,

I know that Wayne.  You are not the first bible believer with whom I have spoken and had that verse quoted at me.  And that makes my point even more valid.  We are talking about what the bible says, not some loopy interpretation of yours.  When I point out I have been abandoned by god, your iron age reference agrees.  There is no arguing with me on this one, Wayne. My point is supported by the bible.

I can see your point here without being as certain about it as you are.

I wonder where this supposedly all good, just and merciful god is hiding, because he is not to be found in the bible.

It is a severe mercy for sure.  My deepest laughs came in the midst of some of the most hopeless of moments in my life.  Once, in the middle of a severe and bewildering back problem I was hit by a thunderbolt of a pain spasm in an intensity that cannot be described.  After the initial yelp, I laughed so deep that there was only one explanation.  It was the peace that passes understanding.  I suppose I could have cursed God and others might have, but I was being visited at that very moment by a severe mercy.  I don't think anything could scare me much after that.  He wasn't hiding in a bible. On a subsequent night while lying prone on the floor I was alone, and hands (of an angel?) gripped my ankles and pulled me, I thought across the carpet into the other room.  A warm massage of comfort visited me with a relief I hadn't felt in days, I slept for a couple of hours and awoke to find that I hadn't moved an inch.  I wasn't alone, but I was made to go through a recovery period like anyone else with my ailment.  A strange and powerful but severe mercy like that can stay with you many years.   

My point had nothing to do with your report.  My point had to do with the horribly unjust god you worship. 

  It can seem that way.  Job had every reason to think that way, but the seeming obvious injustice to him somehow didn't crush him.  That's what I think was amazing about it and my back problem was a little example of God's secret way of sustaining in the midst of agony.  This is tuff stuff. 

For good or for bad, I hope you can forgive me that I cannot, and likely shall never have the option of concluding that He doesn't exist, no matter what should happen to me. 

Wayne, if I believed in yhwh, I would reject it completely on moral grounds.  The way yhwh behaved in the OT was abominable.  If I reversed the words "God" and "Satan" in the bible, and read it to someone who'd never read it before, they would think Satan (yhwh, actually) was completely evil.  I also cannot accept the NT because it says my salvation comes at the expense of someone else.  I reject that as morally reprehensible.  Other people cannot pay for my crimes.  There is no justice in that.

I don't understand all of it.  I'm not convinced that anybody on earth does, but my consolation, as is my point throughout this is that I have been comforted in terrors.  Without the abiding Holy Spirit, those terrors would have brought me to the same conclusion as you, but instead they became memories I wouldn't trade for all the gold in the world.

So maybe what I am trying to show you is not that you should stop believing that yhwh exists, but that the moral thing to do would be to reject this monster.  How about you just start there and we'll get to showing his nonexistence later?

I sense a contradiction in the last two sentences, the second part I think to be a weak declaration from someone who only wishes an entity exists that he just got done making a definitive description of.

I can see that you are in a tight spot here screwtape, but I'll not have you drag me into it with you.  I will however, throw you the rope I have, maybe  God will pull you out of it.
 

Maybe you'd like to read about that one here.  http://tinyurl.com/PaleMustang

Thanks, but no.  I do not find your tales convincing.

I expressly sense that  you fear mentioning with any specificity elements of my stories to insulate your self from the acknowledgment that there really are supernatural realities that contradict your flailing hope that there isn't a God.  I don't mean to sound self centered here, but my stories are my validation of my God, my powers of logic are not. The bible says man's logic will fail him in the face of God's power, and that is what I have.  Your curt dismissal of their remarkable details  your discomfort with them or that you really just won't read them, which is what you mean to do now.  I know it's a challenge.  I have more than I have published here.  It's all real.  I didn't wash up on this pirate ship for nothing.

{{{{Please note that the response below was deleted by a moderator other than parking places in the wee hours, but I was able to re post it and then add the above comments presently luckily a browser window stayed open all night and retained the three culled posts.}}}}
My comments to you last night were:

I just knew I could convince you screwtape, you are such a pushover.  I like this part the most:

I would like to have you committed to a psychiatric hospital.  You are dangerous.

That's such a nice touch, and must make you exceptionally popular around here.

When your communist comrades take over, you can have them round us all up as you wish.

I do have a question.  Did you ever read darkknight?  Forgive me if you have commented on it but I got a lot of blazing from you like this long before you ever read it because it wouldn't open for you, and don't recall ever hearing that you have and I have always been fascinated by that fact.

And what about Idi Amin. And about the earthquake. It is all from that monster you don't believe in.  I sense a chink in your atheist armor.  You actually are a believer, you just don't like the big Guy.  I suspect that is really behind a large percentage of atheism is just being on the side of Satan in this battle, and Satan, being the liar that he is, would certainly push the 'there is no god' theme. 
Can you be an atheist and believe in Satan?  You don't really need to answer that question for me but your peers on this site would probably be interested in the answer.

[WayneHarropson]

Are you going to answer the question about whether three deaths (of unwanted fetuses, of wanted babies, of unknown random people) matter?

I'm sorry if I was dismissive.  These are heavy questions. I'll say that they matter.  I am at God's mercy to give you anything that could live up to the gravity of what you are saying.  I suppose that you are relating this to the attempt to make me somehow responsible for three people that were crushed under a wall in Whittier when I was laughing in a coffee shop.

It could be interpreted as wicked, and all I can say is, the knowledge of those three people would only come later.  The unbelievably grave message delivered to me at that coffee shop related specifically to those who might die without Jesus Christ, but joy is for those that have put their trust in him.  It is my personality to laugh in wonder of these rapturous incidences that happen to me, but I'm not a madman as that might imply. That is the best i can do for you on that, and sorry again if I was trite on the matter.

[Astreja]

Mourn over every single death.... somehow, I think unnecessary.

Wayne, I'm going to put this as gently as I can.

If I had been laughing in a coffee shop at the time of an earthquake, and had later discovered that three people had died, I'd be ashamed of and confused by My laughter.  I certainly wouldn't take it as a sign from a loving god.  Perhaps from a trickster-god or an overtly malevolent being.

Out of respect for the deceased, please consider not repeating the coffee shop incident to other people in the future.

I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.

How would you know?  One can speak of one's own vision, but not someone else's.

I would say that it would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil, and that would apply in many other cases as well.  So yes you would be evil.  But you want to apply that standard to God, and you are just wasting your time.

Logical fallacy:  Special pleading.

I just have a more resigned attitude to what God wants to do, or allows to happen and that attitude makes me less interested in the question than you are.  Sorry.

That kind of attitude is extremely unappealing, IMNSHO.  It also seems just a wee bit unstable, given your stated anger at your god supposedly letting Obama win the election.

[Anfauglir]

I'm flattered that you think that I could tell you why God does a specific thing….

Then what can we discuss?  If you can't tell me why your god does, or does not, do something, then there is no way that you can convince me that it is good.  Its as simple as that. 

…..or why anything ever ever dies.  We would have to start with the imagination that nothing or no one should ever die and then start blaming someone or something if it should ever happen.  You are wearing yourself out from that perspective and I can't help you with it.  If you haven't gotten used to the fact that people die, I can see why you keep needling me about it……

Gosh, people die, do they?  Thanks for letting me know, Wayne - I hadn't realised that.

Of course people die.  And I hope that - like me - you would get angry with anyone who could prevent death but chose not to.  It seems you may agree…..

If during that quake my daughter or someone I knew died, I wouldn't be laughing. 

….but ONLY if the person who dies is someone you like.  If not…..screw 'em, right Wayne?  All part of your god's plan. 

If your daughter dies tomorrow, Wayne, I advise you to simply

get over it

…because death is just something that happens.

And I want to know exactly how you define the actions it took as "good".

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian

So if I killed your daughter, that would be good?

No that would be bad.

I'm confused.  You said that the end of a life, to a Christian like you, is good.  But if I took the life of your daughter, it would be bad.  What is the difference?

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

 

I would say that it would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil, and that would apply in many other cases as well.  So yes you would be evil.  But you want to apply that standard to God, and you are just wasting your time.

So why is there a different standard, Wayne?  Lay it out for me. 

Because you've told me, up there, that you CAN'T tell me why your god does what it does.  So how do you come to apply a different standard to a being you can't understand, than you would apply to any other being?

But I get your drift, you are angry that God allows bad things to happen.

Heh - no Wayne, I'm not angry at your god, because I don't believe it exists.  How angry are you at Batman?  Not at all, I suspect, because you are intelligent enough to know that Batman doesn't exist.  But I suspect you ARE angry at the things that the character of Batman represents, at the things that belief in Batman makes some people do.

If you detect anger in me Wayne, it's that - the anger at what the belief in your god can make people do.  In your case, it has taken a man who has clear ideas of what is good and evil, and make him indifferent to deaths that occur around him.  Indifferent to any deaths (oh, except of course when they impact on his nearest and dearest).  It’s a belief that has made him twist his understanding of good and evil so that he can award a "get-out" to his god.  A creature whose actions he cannot explain, whose actions he defines as the exact opposite of good, but who he will, nevertheless, call "good".

That makes me angry, Wayne, angry and sad.  That like so many others, you are so ready to ascribe hidden motives to a creature whose actions - without your unsubstantiated preconceptions - you would not hesitate to describe as evil.

[Azdgari]

I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.

How would you know?  One can speak of one's own vision, but not someone else's.

They are one and the same.  Wayne is his god.

[screwtape]

For example, I hold him responsible for foisting Barack Obama's re election on the United States, which he could clearly have blocked.

But Wayne, if god made it happen then it must ultimately be for the best, right?  And if that is so, then how can you disagree?  I think god is telling you to get on board the Liberal Express.  Otherwise, you are opposing god's will.

Am I as angry as you at him? 

I'm not angry at god any more than I am angry at Emperor Palpatine or Tony Soprano.  I am angry that there are people who cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is imaginary.  I am angry that those people wish to impose rules on the rest of us that are based on their imaginary friends. I am angry that we are not allowed to feed those people to lions.

I can tell you for a certainty that your silly self projection theory doesn't apply in any way shape or form with me.

Oh, it applies alright. You see, it is about how you view god.  The bible does not paint a consistent, coherent portrait of this being.  So necessarily you must make choices. These choices reflect your personality. 

Let me ask you this - would you allow women to speak in church?

Nice try with your incessant slanders, I know they make you feel superior, but after a while you just look silly.

Wayne, I don't need to "slander" you to feel superior.  I feel superior because I am superior. 

Do you think Abraham Lincoln ...

irrelevant to the discussion and stoopid.

So I suppose Lincoln was just a SPAG.

Lincoln was not a SPAG.  Lincoln engaged in SPAG.  All god believers engage in SPAG.  He was a man of his times.  Saying he SPAGed is like saying Jefferson had slaves.  Both statements reflect the unfortunate but unvarnished truth.  Both men were mortals and were influenced by the place and time in which they lived. 

Lincoln pooped, too.

All the confusion, disagreements, and conundrums you find among believers are an interesting study, but none of it gets you off the hook.  If you are so much smarter, then you are more responsible for your idiocy.  God is just. 

Nope.  yhwh is not just.  If yhwh deliberately hiding from me and cutting me off does not get me off the hook, then yhwh is not just.  That has already been established and you helped me prove that with your bible quote.  Repeating your claim is not an argument. 

You say it's clear,  I say we see through a glass darkly. 

Wayne, we are no longer having a conversation.  I have tried to put together an explanation for you understand, consider and discuss.  However, it seems you have stopped doing any of that. You are just talking at me now, trying to get an emotional rise out of me.  I do not appreciate that.  I have put in considerable effort.  You... have not.

Let me over simplify the whole thing. 

You have oversimplified alright. So much so that you have rendered your point useless.  Latching on to one sentence, completely out of context is meaningless. 

Take a look at my visions and dreams (like having my leg amputated so that I would stop by and visit WWGHA) and then tell me again that I'm a SPAG.  See my point?

No, I don't see your point.  You are actually saying very little.  You are pointing to your dubious "visions" as if they are supposed to mean anything to me.  They don't.  I know you see them in a rather self-agrandizing way.  I do not.  I see mundane coincidences to which you have applied your gigantic ego.  You have placed yourself in the center of the universe, but given me no reason to accept your position there.

I can see your point here without being as certain about it as you are.

That's a start. Here is another thought to add to that.  If yhwh really wants everyone to go to heaven, and the sole requirement to get there is to believe in him, then why is yhwh only helping the people who don't really need help (the people who already believe) and cutting off the people who need it the most (the people who don't)?  It is like giving charity to the rich. It makes no sense.  It is confusing.  So somewhere in there one of your beliefs is wrong. 

It could be yhwh isn't actually good.  It could be yhwh doesn't actually want everyone to go to heaven.  It could be the people who claim they are being aided by "the spirit" are mistaken or lying.  It could be a lot of things. But one thing we can be sure about is that some part of that idea is wrong.

It is a severe mercy for sure. 

Severe mercy?  What the heck does that even mean?  It sounds completely selfcontradictory.

It can seem that way.  Job had every reason to think that way, but the seeming obvious injustice to him somehow didn't crush him. 

It is not seeming that way.  It is that way. It is like you admit it and deny it all at once.  There is something very wrong with your brain. 

And it did crush Job.  He was not buoyed by yhwh's love.  He was bullied and intimidated by yhwh and did the only thing he could - submit to this alien being or be destroyed. 

That's what I think was amazing about it and my back problem was a little example of God's secret way of sustaining in the midst of agony.  This is tuff stuff. 

Enough with the delusions of grandeur please.  You are not Job.

Without the abiding Holy Spirit, those terrors would have brought me to the same conclusion as you, but instead they became memories I wouldn't trade for all the gold in the world.

Why do you get the holy spirit and I get nothing?  What makes you so special?

I sense a contradiction in the last two sentences, the second part I think to be a weak declaration from someone who only wishes an entity exists that he just got done making a definitive description of.

No, Wayne.  No contradiction.  I speak of yhwh as a character in a story.  Literary criticism.  It was one of my minors in college.  I speak of yhwh like MacDuff in MacBeth or Luke Skywalker in Star Wars.  In the stories presented in the bible, yhwh is a villain.  If, as so many people believe, yhwh is a real being, then it is certainly an immoral being to be rejected and overcome like Morgoth^Wiki on the Silmarillion.

I can see that you are in a tight spot here screwtape,

Moi?  In what way?  What the flip are you talking about? 

I expressly sense that  you fear mentioning

Your spider-sense has failed you.  I don't fear your stories.  That idea is your ego protecting itself.  I'm not interested in your stories because they are silly.  You are a silly, deluded man who sees himself as special, more special than everyone else.  A minor prophet.  I don't know how you got that way.  Perhaps your mother didn't pay enough attention to you.  Perhaps you were dropped on your head as an infant.  Maybe it was a lot of drugs in the 70s.  Whatever it was, I don't know how to fix you.  But I do know that reading your stories is a pointless waste of my time, just like I know watching Oprah is a pointless waste of my time.  And the chances that Oprah or Wayne Harropson revealing uncomfortable truths are both near zero.   

I do have a question.  Did you ever read darkknight?

do you mean this?
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Returns-Frank-Miller/dp/1563893428
if so, yes. 
If you mean something else, then no.

And what about Idi Amin. And about the earthquake.

What about them? 

It is all from that monster you don't believe in.

So says you.  And you are not very convincing.

I sense a chink in your atheist armor.  You actually are a believer, you just don't like the big Guy.

No.  I stopped believing in "the big guy" long before I decided he was a villain.

Can you be an atheist and believe in Satan?

I don't see how.

 

[screwtape]

something else for you to chew on, Wayne.  This from a religious guy:

Many believers today want to have that same kind of experience.  They want personal, spiritual direction from the Lord.  Attempting to receive guidance from God, they listen longingly for His audible voice or wait for some intuitive, emotional prompting or impression that will unveil His will for their lives.

But that kind of communication, whether it’s audible or intuitive, is nottrustworthy.  In fact, it’s useless — and can even be dangerous.

Why isn’t it trustworthy?  To begin with, there’s no valid way to discern divine truth in what a person hears or feels.  Experience is unreliable because it’s always subjective.  There are no means set forth in the Bible to test or prove or discern the meaning of some inner voice or prompting you may think you heard or felt.  In fact, Scripture never gives believers even the slightest encouragement to listen for private revelations from God.
...
Using your own experiences to determine divine truth gives too much weight to your own perspective and interpretation.  Scripture says, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool” (Proverbs 28:26).  The church does not receive new or private revelation, either corporately or individually.  Scripture clearly warns against adding to the completed revelation given in the Bible (Revelation 22:18).

http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2012/06/25/on-hearing-gods-voice-the-dangers-of-this-way-of-thinking-and-the-sufficiency-of-scripture/

bold mine.  Your personal revelations are heresy.

[kaziglu bey]

something else for you to chew on, Wayne.  This from a religious guy:
<snip>
http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2012/06/25/on-hearing-gods-voice-the-dangers-of-this-way-of-thinking-and-the-sufficiency-of-scripture/

The part you quoted from this is probably one of the most honest things I have ever seen a theist write.

[WayneHarropson]

Mourn over every single death.... somehow, I think unnecessary.

Wayne, I'm going to put this as gently as I can.

If I had been laughing in a coffee shop at the time of an earthquake, and had later discovered that three people had died, I'd be ashamed of and confused by My laughter.  I certainly wouldn't take it as a sign from a loving god.  Perhaps from a trickster-god or an overtly malevolent being. 

Out of respect for the deceased, please consider not repeating the coffee shop incident to other people in the future.

I can understand your concern without making it mine.  I appreciate you making your point gently because I actually respect it, and understand it to be a valid point of view.  Others here want to put me in a mental institution actually destroy their credibility, but yours is well taken. 

The trickster thing is not an unreasonable allegation from the point of view of the listener of the story.  If I have been tricked, this being tricking me has been dabbling in the peace that passes understanding, and he has been tricking me by showing me that what I have written twenty and more years ago has it's biblical application today.  This trickster has made me acutely aware and sensitive to things like profanities both in word and in deed among those who deny him.  This trickster dug deep into my heart and scoured it of the profanities it was harboring and freed me from certain habits I prefer not to mention here that I doubt I would have freed myself from on my own. 

Yes, I have tested this thing for being a trickster and if any of this has been of the devil with the intent to deceive I can only test it by the fruit it has produced.  In me it has inspired a desire for righteousness, it has comforted me, it has led me through the valley of the shadow of death without fearing evil.  (That's an 'E Ticket' ride by the way.)

And about not telling the story, sorry, I can't not tell what I've been told to tell, I don't want to lose that peace thing I've been enjoying.  If telling the story causes fear and trembling in the hearer, that would not be out of character for a God whose hand appeared: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_writing_on_the_wall 
That's pretty scary stuff, but only for the disobedient.  It didn't scare Daniel.  Now if you look at that story you can imagine how those who desecrated the sacred would would hate the "trickster" that wasn't going to let them get away with it. 
Here's a modern example.  Homosexual behavior is a grave sin against nature and has always been with us.  It has its own consequences individually either in this life or the next and that is a function of men's free will, but when a government institutionalises it, that sin must be punished in this life, because governments don't have an afterlife.  Our Government has contracted aids, and now is defenseless of the perils that befall it. 
If I'm delivering a message that is meant to be heard, the three people dying somewhere, put in perspective, are indeed small change, but certainly not to me.  I don't like it when people die, but God sees death from his side different than you and I do.  That doesn't excuse me for laughing, but I'm going to cut myself a break because it was him tickling me about another subject.  That was a great trick by the way!

I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.

How would you know?  One can speak of ones own vision, but not someone else's.

  I'm pretty confident that god sees things differently.  Sometimes He gives me a peek at his way of seeing something and it surprises me, it's not my way at all.  His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts.

I would say that it would be evil if you knew to do good and decided to instead do evil, and that would apply in many other cases as well.  So yes you would be evil.  But you want to apply that standard to God, and you are just wasting your time.

Logical fallacy:  Special pleading.

I had to look that up:

Special pleading, also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment,[1] is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.[2]

If it is a logical fallacy when applied to arguments among men about men, that might be the case.  I wouldn't be so certain that it applies between a person and the God that created them.  I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to keep that definition handy in case I become one.

I just have a more resigned attitude to what God wants to do, or allows to happen and that attitude makes me less interested in the question than you are.  Sorry.

That kind of attitude is extremely unappealing, IMNSHO.

If I adjusted the facts simply to appeal to you, then you should call me a liar.

It also seems just a wee bit unstable, given your stated anger at your god supposedly letting Obama win the election.

A hard but wise decision had to be made apparently.  I have to live in the fallout of God's righteous judgement, even though I plead with him for another way, but He knows better than I.  God's choice for President is a man that He would have counted a sin for me to vote for.  How's that for a conundrum?

See, the decisions that God makes are often as confusing to me as they are for atheists, I just don't have to go through all the silliness of saying it's not him making those questionable judgmant calls.  He still hasn't made me a millionaire by the way and there is absolutely no accounting for that.

You had excellent comments here Astreja.  That trickster thing is not off the table with the stories I write and I commend you for thinking of it. Your argument however does cause some atheist issues, I hope you know that.

[WayneHarropson]

something else for you to chew on, Wayne.  This from a religious guy:
<snip>
http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2012/06/25/on-hearing-gods-voice-the-dangers-of-this-way-of-thinking-and-the-sufficiency-of-scripture/

The part you quoted from this is probably one of the most honest things I have ever seen a theist write.

Wow, I listen to MacArthur all the time I will read this with rapt interest.  I have visited his church and attempted to contact him directly on this very same issue. I have not gotten a response, he's a busy man, and just for the fun of it, I'm going to tell you an interesting fact.  I was listening to John MacArthur when investigating the LDS Church.  I prayed for wisdom on whether I should join, and my answer came from John MacArthur.  Funny huh?
Thanks, Really.
edited to say, it looks like screwtape posted  the link.

[WayneHarropson]

For example, I hold him responsible for foisting Barack Obama's re election on the United States, which he could clearly have blocked.

But Wayne, if god made it happen then it must ultimately be for the best, right?  And if that is so, then how can you disagree?  I think god is telling you to get on board the Liberal Express.  Otherwise, you are opposing god's will.

 
I'm not always sure when you are tongue in cheek screwtape, but I assume you are kidding here.  You may have missed the memo.  I can be resigned to his ultimate will without having a party when it becomes bad news.  I can also resign myself to his ultimate will without just making up my mind that he doesn't exist.  I can understand that Obama is president just like I understand that the Assyrians laid waste the Temple.  If I was a Jew I wouldn't like that, but I might understand it.  I would be lying if I said that it appeared that everybody get's a fair shake in the bible or in this world, there is a lot of evidence of unfairness.  Would you tell your kids to get ready to have a life where everything is fair in this world? 

I can tell you for a certainty that your silly self projection theory doesn't apply in any way shape or form with me.

Oh, it applies alright. You see, it is about how you view god.  The bible does not paint a consistent, coherent portrait of this being.  So necessarily you must make choices. These choices reflect your personality.

 
My personality can enter into it without being the controlling mechanism your definition requires.  I think you know that but you like your theory so much as a shotgun that you're not going to give it up on any individual to which it does not apply.  You are wrong, at least in my case.

Let me ask you this - would you allow women to speak in church?

They do it all the time in my church, I've benefitted from it many times, but there is a principal of order that's in place and when the spirit of that principal is breached, it can be uncomfortable, and inappropriate.  Let's just say it is spiritually determined and affirms God's order.  I have my favorites in my church, some are really good.

Nice try with your incessant slanders, I know they make you feel superior, but after a while you just look silly.

Wayne, I don't need to "slander" you to feel superior.  I feel superior because I am superior.

 
That's funny.  I like you better when you joke around.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln ...

irrelevant to the discussion and stoopid.

Your brevity speaks for itself.  I wouldn't get too deep here if I was you, that superior thing is quite precious. Just remember this next time you accuse me of dodging.

So I suppose Lincoln was just a SPAG.

Lincoln was not a SPAG.  Lincoln engaged in SPAG.  All god believers engage in SPAG.  He was a man of his times.  Saying he SPAGed is like saying Jefferson had slaves.  Both statements reflect the unfortunate but unvarnished truth.  Both men were mortals and were influenced by the place and time in which they lived. 

I'm glad you backed off the SPAG there, I didn't think you could defend your shotgun in the face of reality.

Lincoln pooped, too.

You lost me, I guess it's that superior thing you have going.

All the confusion, disagreements, and conundrums you find among believers are an interesting study, but none of it gets you off the hook.  If you are so much smarter, then you are more responsible for your idiocy.  God is just. 

Nope.  yhwh is not just.  If yhwh deliberately hiding from me and cutting me off does not get me off the hook, then yhwh is not just.  That has already been established and you helped me prove that with your bible quote.  Repeating your claim is not an argument.

I'm with Lincoln all the way.  We say just, you say not.  It's two against one, you lose. I know you have read the second inaugural sometime in your life.  You're abilities to wrangle may be highly advanced but I doubt that you have evolved somehow beyond Lincoln. He no lightweight. 

You say it's clear,  I say we see through a glass darkly. 

Wayne, we are no longer having a conversation.  I have tried to put together an explanation for you understand, consider and discuss.  However, it seems you have stopped doing any of that. You are just talking at me now, trying to get an emotional rise out of me.  I do not appreciate that.  I have put in considerable effort.  You... have not.

I know you know that comes from scripture.  If you think your declarations of superiority have awarded yourself perfect clarity, maybe you have stopped the conversation.

Let me over simplify the whole thing. 

You have oversimplified alright. So much so that you have rendered your point useless.  Latching on to one sentence, completely out of context is meaningless.

 

Not as much as you want to think.  My God owns the Devil, can you understand that?  It is the ultimate good cop bad cop routine on steroids.  My simplification is so unbelievably profound here that it just busts your chops now doesn't  it.

Take a look at my visions and dreams (like having my leg amputated so that I would stop by and visit WWGHA) and then tell me again that I'm a SPAG.  See my point? 

I know you see them in a rather self-agrandizing way.

I won't walk you through the sequence again. I know you understand it. The self aggrandizing part is a cheap shot and a dodge.  I have no ability to assemble for my self aggrandizement when i have had absolutely no input into the construction of the sequence of events that makes an event occur that follows a dream that precisely.  It is not me.  Here's another quickie.  I had a dream of a guy riding one of those circus bicycles that you mount from a ladder.  That day, I saw the guy on the bicycle on my way to work riding around a jack in the box restaurant.  That had me going.  Weird. Don't waste your time complaining that that can be easily explained by statistics, I know it was a dry run from someone that has a history of blowing my mind with humor.  If that reality appears to be self aggrandizing, blame that guy you wish didn't exist, don't blame me.

I do not.  I see mundane coincidences to which you have applied your gigantic ego.  You have placed yourself in the center of the universe, but given me no reason to accept your position there.

Be very very careful here.  You are telling me that you don't see my point. You, screwtape, blazed me and blazed me incessantly, insulted me, and complained about me, and then admitted that you had never read the basis of my arguments, and you are afraid to admit you have read even now.  I know what you are doing, and so do you.  You have this canned Christian killer schpiel and you are convinced that it is so air tight that you don't even have to acknowledge a Christian's evidence.  The last thing you want to do is admit that you have actually lowered to the level of having read it, because the Christian is so inferior to you that he doesn't deserve that dignity.  You are about to snidely dodge my question about my dark knight premonition because actually discussing the absolutely stunning reality that God inspired me to write it, and followed it up with a gas leak in my truck to cement the deal, is a discussion you in your phony superiority cannot afford to have.  The earthquake incident.. I wouldn't talk about that one if I was you, because your preset Christian killer program does not compute does it?

It could be yhwh isn't actually good.  It could be yhwh doesn't actually want everyone to go to heaven.  It could be the people who claim they are being aided by "the spirit" are mistaken or lying.  It could be a lot of things. But one thing we can be sure about is that some part of that idea is wrong.

The world is just chalk full of injustices, but take a break from that depressing reality and take a quick look at two things, Israel and America, and that god thing they have in common, and the amazing contributions god minded people from there have given the world.  Just think about it.

Severe mercy?  What the heck does that even mean?  It sounds completely selfcontradictory.

 

Some verse in II Hesitations.  I don't know, I heard it somewhere and it applies to achingly contradictory manifestations of pain mixed with the glory of God.  It's like the shadow of death thing turning out to be an amazing affirmation of faith. 

Without the abiding Holy Spirit, those terrors would have brought me to the same conclusion as you, but instead they became memories I wouldn't trade for all the gold in the world.

Why do you get the holy spirit and I get nothing?  What makes you so special?

I beg.  I'm not kidding.  But I guess God knew I would so he gave me a tattoo at birth.  I told you he knows everything.  It's OK to beg by the way, George Washington did it and Lincoln too.  Lincoln said:

“I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go. My own wisdom and that of all about me seemed insufficient for that day.”

And there are many witnesses of GW praying privately like here:

Temple said that in the absence of a chaplain Washington would read the Scriptures to his troops and lead in prayer. He also said that “on sudden and unexpected visits into his (Washington’s) marquee, he has, more than once, found him on his knees at his devotions.” http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/George-Washington-Did-He-Pray-at-Valley-Forge-EXTENSIVE.html

Did you ever read darkknight?

do you mean this?
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Returns-Frank-Miller/dp/1563893428
if so, yes. 
If you mean something else, then no.

This is the obvious dodge I had a "premonition" about earlier on this page.  You give me a lot of grief, but refuse to acknowledge the basis of my proof. Bad form.

Dear moderator, the following is relevent to the topic in that it validates my belief in my God.
Did you see that picture in my article I played Pale Rider  of me with Clint Eastwood?  Somebody emailed it to me a couple of days ago and I shopped my face into it BEFORE I made the connection that Paul Neuman was wearing a racing suit. It fit into my story so well, I scared myself.  Be sure to play the song (link in the article), and the movie trailer.

OK, maybe the racing suit was a coinkiedink. You decide.




This is the article:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/I%20played%20Pale%20Rider%20in%20Chicago.pdf

Or http://tinyurl.com/PaleMustang  different link same PDF

[WayneHarropson]

something else for you to chew on, Wayne.  This from a religious guy:

Many believers today want to have that same kind of experience.  They want personal, spiritual direction from the Lord.  Attempting to receive guidance from God, they listen longingly for His audible voice or wait for some intuitive, emotional prompting or impression that will unveil His will for their lives.

But that kind of communication, whether it’s audible or intuitive, is nottrustworthy.  In fact, it's useless — and can even be dangerous.

Why isn't it trustworthy?  To begin with, there's no valid way to discern divine truth in what a person hears or feels.  Experience is unreliable because it's always subjective.  There are no means set forth in the Bible to test or prove or discern the meaning of some inner voice or prompting you may think you heard or felt.  In fact, Scripture never gives believers even the slightest encouragement to listen for private revelations from God.
...
Using your own experiences to determine divine truth gives too much weight to your own perspective and interpretation.  Scripture says, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool” (Proverbs 28:26).  The church does not receive new or private revelation, either corporately or individually.  Scripture clearly warns against adding to the completed revelation given in the Bible (Revelation 22:18).

http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2012/06/25/on-hearing-gods-voice-the-dangers-of-this-way-of-thinking-and-the-sufficiency-of-scripture/

bold mine.  Your personal revelations are heresy.

When I read this post, I had just got back from exercising and listening to John's "False Teachers mp3".
Man do I just love getting this kind of definitive theological advice from an atheist.  I'm kidding.  I'm glad you brought it up.

I read the article in complete and found all the relevent admonitions.  In my experience I can't remember more than once that I thought I heard a voice, but even that didn't mean anything to me.  A "still small voice" is biblical and that is at the level of suggestion.  I could say that my Montclair story had a shout, That's enough!  It was sharp and definite, without actually being audible.

John is actually controversial in that he tamps down these supernatural things and admits that it has never happened to him.
He tells a joke that's funny, he says that he never hears from God, he married a prophet and that was the end of it.

If this is a topic you would like a resolution to screwtape, and know someone that knows John MacArthur, I have already done what one man can to call my case to John's personal attention.  I have great respect for this man, but he hasn't responded.  I may have freaked him out writing to him that a sermon he gave made me join the LDS church. 
Yippie kai yo...
Am I a hard case or What?