Please validate your belief in your God

[screwtape]

Oh screwtape.  Why so angry? 

Oh wayne, I'm not angry.  I'm frustrated.  I know, I probably shouldn't be.  But to be honest, I have always been impatient and had a low tolerance for stupidity.  Call it a character flaw.  I'm a work in progress. 

What aggravates me is the way xians accuse me of all manner of atrocity and immorality while blilthely ignoring pretty much every commandment.  Barton's, and your to a degree, has been to break Ex20:16 "You shall not bear false witness to your neighbors." 

Barton is lying outright.  That has been shown.  You cannot fudge quotes the way he has accidentally.  He has surgically cut out the parts that disagree with his point and kept the parts that make his point.  That is lying.  You, Wayne, have retold his lies despite having been made aware of his deception. 

May I surmise that you are not a Christian by your behavior?

No, wayne.  You may surmise that from me coming right out and saying it.  I have not noticed xians behaving any better than anyone else.  In fact, in my experience they tend to be the ones trying to shove their stupid beliefs down everyone else's throats.

[jynnan tonnix]

  My God guides me and I believe in him for that.  He guides me and therefore He is real.

Aha! Now here is something that makes perfect sense. Just look at the way you have stated it.

You receive "guidance" from a source you do not recognize as being natural, although it is. It's all in your subconscious, waiting to be incorporated into something which fits into your confirmation bias. To you these coincidences seem too perfect and too frequent (even though they quite frankly are neither) to have come from a natural source. You incorporate these coincidences into your belief system in such a way as to make them seem like guidance, and you believe in the source you have attributed them to because of that. Therefore God is real. To you.

Think about this question again...it's been asked in various ways by a number of people.

To a Muslim, who follows the Quran, and for whom coicidences in his life seem to back up his beliefs, he will see it as guidance from Allah. Therefore Allah is real. To him. Ditto for a Hindu or believer in some other god or pantheon.

To someone who studies astrology, the patterns of the stars can appear to have an amazing relevance to the path of a person's life when all the coincidences are added up. Therefore astrology can be just as real.

Whatever a person becomes attuned to, more and more bits and pieces will "miraculously" seem to become part of the narrative. And if this tuning strays over the edge into obsession, there will be hardly anything which does not escape being somehow linked to it. Pattern recognition. It's just the way the mind works.

And for every one of these people, the guidance they receive IS perfectly real in backing up their preconceived notions. The part of their mind formulating it all into patterns back in their subconscious is real as well. Their source is just as real as yours.

[DumpsterFire]

Your premonition / low odds take on things is theologically sound for you given your assumptions about the world, Wayne.  Unfortunately for you, if this world had no god in it, things that you hook together can be easily explained as just very minor (and sometimes even ridiculously lame) coincidences.  Nothing more.  They aren't even like... "WOW what a coincidence" things.  They're really weak.  You're brain just can't see them that way, but truthfully, you're probably a statistics and probability class away from laughing at your own stupidity.

This is the crux of the problem. Wayne, you are absolutely, unwaveringly convinced that these very minor coincidences you've experienced are clear, self-evident proof that you are being guided by god, but to anyone who's not already strongly leaning towards supernatural belief your stories simply are not compelling. In the least.

I had no intention of clicking any more of your links, but due to your "Gay Marriage Warning" my curiosity got the better of me and I read your JeepDeathWobble story. Holy crap[1], was that a waste of time! Folks, let me just save you the time and give you the following summary:

Wayne needed a part for his car and found a seller on Craigslist. In giving Wayne directions to his house, the seller referenced a Chik-Fil-A as a landmark. Wayne considers the mere mention of Chik-Fil-A to be undeniable proof that god hates gay marriage.

That's the entire ridiculous story.

Wayne, if you honestly cannot understand how anyone can read such a story and not agree with your conclusions then you are by far the most delusional person I have ever encountered. This story literally means nothing. There is absolutely nothing supernatural about a guy living near a Chik-Fil-A. That you believe there is only reveals the utter desperation of your confirmation bias.

1.	pun intended

[Quesi]

I apologize for going off topic, but I cannot help myself.   This is the second thread in which Wayne bashes single mothers, and blames us for the nation’s ills.  I feel that I must respond. 

I'll answer that one with a question.  Do you believe that my assertion that single motherhood leads to dependency and the overwhelming of the welfare system?  I ask because others here celebrate single motherhood and Barton and I think that's a bad Idea.  Your stats, whatever they are, and my stats that some here wish to dismiss could all be misrepresentitive of something, but what we can get form this discussion is that Atheist philosophies as demonstrated here are what Barton and I would call anti family.  The anti family element tends to dependence, and a welfare state that is bankrupting the country. Barton and I are pointing to truth.  I like that and as you said: But "like" and "trust" are not pathways to truth. However, they ARE often pathways to ERROR.  It just may be that my liking Barton is not, in this specific case difinitively a pathway to error.  I'm sure you could agree with that.

I cannot tell you how disturbed I am by your repeated demonization of single mothers.  And how baffled I am by the fact that you associate single motherhood with atheism.  Let’s go over a few facts, shall we? 

1.    It is tough to be a single mother.  No one should be forced to be a single mother.  A woman  should only enter single motherhood if she genuinely wants to be a single mom.  That is why sex education, birth control, and access to abortion are so important.  Sadly, young women in highly religious neighborhoods and communities are less likely to have access to the appropriate information and resources to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. 

2.   It is patently absurd to pretend that there is a correlation between single motherhood and atheism.  According to this study on single parenthood https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:5oM3t568_LIJ:www.wkkf.org/~/media/5116bc1348704bd883d4bb90a4d39cb3/greenberg%2520report.pdf+single+mothers+and+religion&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj4TyFKp_ilywmGGJKMw6MiOS38s4VmLUuBzF40InM18j-vTbTodUz3uidL3dgOa_FYsug9JDMiQ83lfgNCugLZQXHg6vbKI3EX8BACxGPkEGZ0-y1Rkzy5h8tvcqg3ZUMst-qP&sig=AHIEtbRqRUVNvzFzTM4a_WlrPokR0M4IUw  44% of single mothers believe that the single most important value to teacher their children is “faith in god.”  This comes before “treating others as you want to be treated” at 30% and “education is the key to success” at 27%. 

3.   The disproportionate percentage of single mothers living in poverty is due to a wide range of factors.  That is because most of the routes to single motherhood are paths which put women (and their children) at an economic disadvantage.  When a woman becomes a single mother due to unplanned pregnancy, or due to divorce, she is at an automatic disadvantage.  In the case of young, unwed mothers, I consider the disruption of education to be the most harmful factor impacting both on instances of unwanted pregnancies, and in terms of long-term economic disadvantages.  (Looking back at item #1, we see that lack of sex education, and sometimes lack of self-worth, are contributing factors to pregnancy in girls and young women.)  Single girls and young women who become pregnant without wanting or planning a pregnancy, often  drop out of school, and subsequently have less earning power over the lives of their children.  This is compounded by the continued economic and social disparities in which women still earn less than men for equivalent positions.  Poverty sucks.  Education is the best way to alleviate poverty in first world nations. 

4.   An increasing percentage of single mothers are older, highly educated women, who consciously pursued single motherhood.  We defy your clichés about welfare or even atheism, because many among our ranks are highly religious.   

5.   Single mothers are bankrupting the country?  Really?  I thought that wars and corporate welfare and greedy banks and unwise trade practices were the primary factors contributing to the fiscal crisis in the US.  .7% of your tax dollars go to fund “welfare” as in TANF, while 3.7% goes to support “food and nutrition assistance,” which includes food stamps, subsidized school lunches, nutritional assistance for expecting moms, and a variety of other services.  http://www.whitehouse.gov/2011-taxreceipt  To put this in perspective, 24.9% goes to support the military.  The cost of military salaries and benefits (5. far exceeds the federal dollars spent for welfare AND all nutritional services combined.   

6.   The vast majority of single moms became single moms with the participation of a man, who either represented himself as someone who wanted to build a family with her, or he was just someone who was much more invested in the short-term interests of his dick, than that of the interests of the girl or woman, than the national debt, and certainly more invested in his dick than in the life of the child. 

[median]

I'M BREAKING UP MY RESPONSE INTO 2 PARTS

PART ONE:

1.

One example is that he has awakened me and pointed me to Bible scripture and had me focus on a particular scripture to emphasize that the 23 year old stories are things he is remindking me of.  That is how I know.

But this is Confirmation Bias. Just like nearly all religions, you are MAKING the text FIT what you already assumed. It is also Circular Reasoning Wayne. You are trying to answer my question with the assumption of the subject of the question. I asked, "How do you know God did X" and you answered with "Because God..." I am asking how you know it's Yahweh - or why you believe it's Yahweh. Lots of religions make your same claims. How do you distinguish true beliefs from false beliefs?

2.

I might have worried about the correct interpretation of why my old stories match new events until God reinforced it with the confirming scripture.  And secondly, I do doubt my interpretation of obscure incidences like I had no freaking Idea waht a dream about my leg being amputated means.  After finding this site, I interpret it as a premonition of being here.  So yes I do question my interpretations all the time.

What you are attempting to call "questioning" your interpretations is indistinguishable from Confirmation Bias. You aren't taking a critical or disinterested look into the facts. You are actively seeking to CONFIRM what you are already believed in the first place (i.e. - You started with the conclusion).

I'll ask again. How, exactly, does a coincidence equate to a miraculous supernatural event? How can you distinguish the two? All you've given us so far is, "I interpret rare events as miracles from the Yahweh I already wanted to believe in."

3.

Sometimes, it is rally easy to figure out,other times I have no idea... for a while.

WOW. You doged the question AGAIN. Really? I asked you what other options of interpretation you have explored. From your response I'll take it the answer is NONE.

Do you know what Confirmation Bias is? How is what you are doing any different?

4.

I'll answer that one with a question.  Do you believe that my assertion that single motherhood leads to dependency and the overwhelming of the welfare system?  I ask because others here celebrate single motherhood and Barton and I think that's a bad Idea.  Your stats, whatever they are, and my stats that some here wish to dismiss could all be misrepresentitive of something, but what we can get form this discussion is that Atheist philosophies as demonstrated here are what Barton and I would call anti family.  The anti family element tends to dependence, and a welfare state that is bankrupting the country. Barton and I are pointing to truth.  I like that and as you said: But "like" and "trust" are not pathways to truth. However, they ARE often pathways to ERROR.  It just may be that my liking Barton is not, in this specific case difinitively a pathway to error.  I'm sure you could agree with that.

What "atheist philosophy" Wayne? There is NO "atheist philosophy"! This is what the idiot in the pulpit of your ward/church keeps telling you, and you buy it b/c you assumed his theology from the outset. Had you read the article I posted, regarding the correlation between nations with less religion and crime, perhaps we'd be having a different discussion. You have these misconceptions that atheism (the lack of belief in a deity) is the cause of broken families. This assertion is 100% false! Again, you are buying bullshit from those you want to believe, instead of looking at ALL of the available facts. You really need to stop only reading those that confirm your bias (unless of course you don't really care if you're beliefs are true). There are lots of countries that have stronger families (less broken) then the US does, and those countries are FAR LESS RELIGIOUS. So this assertion plainly fails. Please go back and read the link to the article I posted in Psychology Today.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion (Societies with less religion are healthier)
http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/ (Atheism/Non-religion affiliated with societal health)
http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/zuckerman.htm (Least religious nations are most healthy and successful)

Btw, whether or not welfare is caused by single parents has nothing to do with disbelief in your deity. The overwhelming majority believe in God. Besides, it's only 12% of spending.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php

5.

I'd like to correct myself here.  I have used coincidence in cases where that term doesn't apply. Consider that an error of mine.

This is absurd and quite dishonest Wayne. So instead of just admitting to your own words 14 years ago you are erring on the side of supernaturalism, and superstition, instead of admitting that you might not know the actual cause of what happened and that is might be just a coincidence (which is more likely the case)?? Are there any coincidences in the world Wayne? Could you be wrong about this? How about other religions? When they try what you're trying, is it OK for them to practice this tactic and call it a confirmation of their deity?

With all these stories it seems you are desperate to make happenstance into "miracle".

6.

I'll paste some of it in herre for you and comment;
"And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Wow, that was really inspired of you to pick that verse.  Paul nailed it right on the head didn't he.  There is no way I could have picked a better example of what is going on here.  See, I'm like Paul, unable to intelectually persuade you, only offer you proof of God's power in my stories.

How did you do that median?  That was amazing, the scripture you gave us just answered your question for me.  My God is so great!  "...that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

It hilarious that you can't see your own Confirmation Bias here Wayne. Paul is talking about DEMONSTRATION! Not coincidence, not happenstance, not vague gestures that can be interpreted in many different ways, or sillyness. You didn't have a demonstration of "God's power". You had an occurrence of something that you couldn't explain and so you bought the argument from ignorance and called it Yahweh. This is why I quoted Mark 16. "Greater miracles" Wayne, not lesser vague ones open to your misinterpretation and spin (such as calling a liquid a gas).


7.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the casual observer, hearing that I admit that I'm bigoted with regard to pedophelia, can see it as a wry way of pointing out the direction of psychology in justifying aberrent behaviors as normal is something that I am critical of.  It may satisfy a need of yours to dismiss me altogether because I have heard all I need to hear from studies like the one in the news from Britain that is pointing in that direction.  Psychology today has published articles that I disagree with.  Let's just say, I trust them as much as you trust Barton.  Can't we all just get along?

Quote the article you're talking about and we can discuss it. I highly doubt that any distinguished psychologist is going to argue that Pedophelia is "normal". This is why we have fields such as Abnormal Psychology and dismiss the religious witch doctors who call anything abnormal "demon possession". Again, it sounds very much like what you are practicing is gullibility and confirmation bias. If you believe I'm mistaken, please cite the article in Psychology Today and we'll see.

8.

You went a long way to say that I don't like the truth, and you neednt do that.  I am fully committed to the truth.

Except when it disagrees with your pressupositions, right? See that is the problem with faith. It is not tentative but FIXED. It is useless and futile because it causes you to START with a conclusion, instead of starting with a question and following the evidence where it leads.  This is why I said that it seems you don't care whether your beliefs are actually true. You are actively seeking confirmation of your presumptions. That is backwards.

[median]

PART TWO:

9.

I believe because he has proved himself personally to me as my stories below attest.

But now you are being dishonest and not telling the whole truth. You are only telling a half truth. The REAL reason you believe is because YOUR PARENTS TOLD YOU SO (as you admitted earlier). The attempts to confirm the bias of what you already believed came later. And the stories you are providing are indistinguishable from coincidence or happenstance. They are NOTHING like the miracles Jesus allegedly said you would be able to do if you were his disciple (John 14, Mark 16).

10.

I have stories that predate that, I use that one because this site asks Why God Doesn't Heal Amutees, My story explains Why God Let Those Kids Die.  There is a connection between my story and this site that My God specifically directed me here to expound on and he did it and confirmed it to me by giving me a dream beforehand about having my leg amputated.  My God guides me and I believe in him for that.  He guides me and therefore He is real.

He guides you, but just not in any way you can demonstrate in any non-vague (specific) way, right? How do you know this God guides you and that it's not just your own head-voice (confirming what you already assumed from childhood)? You do know that most religions claim this, and have similar stories/claims as yours right?

11.

I think taht my experiences confirm faith and therefore I'm not entirely guided by faith, but by experience.  It may not be the case for others as it is with me,  but faith is a key element.

I don't agree that faith is not a pathway to truth, that only works for Aheism. (Or doesnt work, whatever.)  You use it as a maxim, I say it is false.

And that is because you are practicing Confirmation Bias. If you think faith is a pathway to truth, then is the Muslim religion the correct one? They have lots of faith. How about the Baptists who say Mormonism is a CULT and it is not real Christianity? They have lots of faith too. Has their faith lead them to the truth that Mormonism is a lie and Joseph Smith is a fraud?

Wayne, faith (believing things when you don't have good evidence or reason to) is NOT a pathway to truth - no matter how much you want it to be. Faith does NOT help anyone to separate fact from fiction. The fact that you need faith demonstrates that you are willing to believe on little, obscured, or no evidence. That is called CREDULITY. Pretending to know something that you don't know is not a good thing.

Do you "just have faith" if a salesmen comes to your door selling a "magic potion", for $1000, that will cure many ills? Be consistent.

12.

I might have a tendency to take the bible seriously more thatn others simply by the fact that I have been directed specifically by it.  I don't undserstand it all but my experience has persuaded me that God has messages for me in it if I am willing to listen when his spirit speaks, as it did with the confirmation taht he was reminding me of things that he had previously taught me.  See John 14:26

But "when his spirit speaks" ASSUMES your bible is true. This doesn't address what I asked you, and really, Muslims do the same thing with the Koran. Assuming what the bible says doesn't make it true.

13.

I think I understand what you mean by faith is not a pathway to truth, because for you it is true, it just isn't for me.

100% false. It IS true for you actually - just as it is true for everyone. Simply having faith in something, doesn't make it true. And when you have the facts, you don't need faith - because faith is believing when you don't have good evidence or reason to do so. It is pretending to know something you don't know.

14.

I really don't think it is lost on everyone here what my part in validating my belief in god has to do with remarkable incidents whose unlikelyhood eliminates them from the cooincidence category.

Just how exactly are you qualified enough to make the determination of the "likelihood" of these stories?? Even if I assumed that your retelling of these stories is entirely accurate (which I don't) what makes you think they are "eliminated from the coincidence category"?? Can't you see your own credulity? Extremely rare events happen ALL THE TIME (such as the CA LOTTERY MEGA MILLIONS), but that doesn't make them miraculous. Read Mark 16 again. You need more than just these "unlikely" events.

15.

Since my case for the existence of god centers around my remarkable supernatural incidences, let me rattle off a list of them that I know are more than  coincidence.

But this is completely disingenuous and dishonest because this ISN'T the real reason you believe. You believe because someone taught it to you when you were a child (while you were impressionable and didn't have a choice), just like the other religions do. These stories are a smoke screen. You're not telling us the whole truth Wayne.

16.

So, In conclusion, my God is real, he gives me joy as you can see, his judgements scare the bejesus out of me, and He is the same God that the bible talks about because he uses bible scripture to tell me things.

He is also a God that blinds unbelievers to his existence.  I quoted that Scripture earlier.

This is circular reasoning again. You are saying that you know God is real because the bible says so and that you know the bible is true because God says. You are being irrational Wayne. That is the point here. You can't know that your God "blinds unbelievers to his existence" unless you first ASSUMED the bible was the word of God. Muslims try this trick too. It doesn't work.

Your first assumption (the one you made from childhood) is your primary error. Muslims do it too, with the Koran. It's wrong for them and it's wrong for you.

You have a very low standard of evidence for your assumed religion. Why don't you have that same low standard for other religions?

[Quesi]

Median- Thank you for your smart and thoughtful 2 part response.  Please forgive me if I nitpick a little with regards to the one small issue contained within your posts that was inaccurate. 

And again, I apologize for going off topic. 

Btw, whether or not welfare is caused by single parents has nothing to do with disbelief in your deity. The overwhelming majority believe in God. Besides, it's only 12% of spending.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php

It is not even 12%.  Not even close.  Sadly, when you google stuff on the national budget, the first hits are teaparty charts, which is what you linked.

If you expand the section labeled “Welfare” which constitutes 12% of the national budget, you’ll see some odd things. 

By far, the biggest expense under the “Welfare” category is not welfare at all.  It is “Social Exclusion n.e.c.”  N.E.C is not elsewhere considered.  And the biggest chunk of that is “Earned Income Tax Credits” which are really the only tax breaks available to low income and moderate income working families.  So the money that these families are NOT PAYING in taxes is being counted as welfare.  In this chart, however, they neglected to include the money that higher income individual families and corporations are NOT PAYING in taxes.  When you get to depreciate the value of your investment property, and get a tax break.  I don’t see that anywhere.  When you shelter your money pre-tax in 401k’s or IRAs.  When you get to write off the interest on the mortgage on your second home.  When corporations get “incentives” or “rebates” or “exemptions.”  You don’t see any of that anywhere. 

“Family and Children” make up the second biggest category, and as I previously mentioned, this includes everything from actual “welfare” known as TANF to subsidized school lunches, to the provision of special formula to moderate income women who just gave birth to babies who are unable to nurse. 

The third largest expense under the “Welfare” category is unemployment payments.  That is not welfare.  You (and your employer) been paying into unemployment insurance.  And when you lose your job, you get some of that money back.  It is not welfare.

The next largest category is “Housing.”  While there is certainly a lot of assistance listed there for families facing eviction, for housing for senior citizens, costs associated  with housing projects, and whatnot,   one of the biggest expenses listed under the subcategory of housing is “Troubled Asset Relief Program” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program .  Started under George Bush, this is the bailout to financial institutions who got burned after decades of using increasingly predatory loan practices.  Not much to do with single moms here either.  But the good news is, under this program, many people in the financial industry were able to maintain those 6 and 7 figure bonuses during hard fiscal times. 

[shnozzola]

  Sadly, when you google stuff on the national budget, the first hits are teaparty charts, which is what you linked.

This is what I despise about current American politics.  Power more important than truth.  Future consequences...... Quesi, is there a chart that is not biased one way or the other - or is that impossible these days?

[Quesi]

  Sadly, when you google stuff on the national budget, the first hits are teaparty charts, which is what you linked.

This is what I despise about current American politics.  Power more important than truth.  Future consequences...... Quesi, is there a chart that is not biased one way or the other - or is that impossible these days?

Unbiased?  Probably not.  I mean, the US federal budget is so huge, and so complex, that they only way you can come close to understanding it is by putting stuff into categories. 

And the very act of creating broad categories is subjective. 

So do you put veteran's benefits in with the other defense expenses?  Or do you put it in with social services?  What about scientific research to combat potential biological attacks? Is that a military expense.  Or do you put it with health care?  If the research is conducted in a university, does that funding go in the education category?  Or do you just call it science, and toss it in with SETI and the folks who are studying manatee populations in Florida?   

And it gets even more complicated when you take state and city budgets into account, because federal money is often blended with local money to fund localities' pet projects. 

But when you start deciding that reductions in revenue (such as the Earned Income Tax Credit) are really expenditures, I would consider that  flat out lying.  Unless, of course, you apply the same standards to every tax break that decreases revenue.

I like  http://www.whitehouse.gov/2011-taxreceipt .   

But if I were making the categories, I would probably do it differently. Using this web site, it looks like a ridiculously small percentage of my tax dollars go to elementary school education.  But the truth is, there is not a lot of federal money dedicated to elementary schools.  Most schools are funded by local real estate taxes.    And even the Obama site counted the COBRA tax credit as an expenditure.  That makes no sense to me. 

So an unbiased view of the whole budget?  No.  I mean, you could print out the literally thousands of pages of budget allocations and look at the laws governing how each of the line items may be used.  Or you could group them into categories, based on your subjective interpretation of where each line item belongs.  Or you could zone in and focus on a very specific set of funding streams over time. 

Ummm... if more people are interested in discussing this, maybe the mods could break it off into its own thread?  Because this is pretty off topic.  But clearly, a topic that I'm really interested in.

[median]

Median- Thank you for your smart and thoughtful 2 part response.  Please forgive me if I nitpick a little with regards to the one small issue contained within your posts that was inaccurate. 

And again, I apologize for going off topic. 

Btw, whether or not welfare is caused by single parents has nothing to do with disbelief in your deity. The overwhelming majority believe in God. Besides, it's only 12% of spending.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php

It is not even 12%.  Not even close.  Sadly, when you google stuff on the national budget, the first hits are teaparty charts, which is what you linked.

If you expand the section labeled “Welfare” which constitutes 12% of the national budget, you’ll see some odd things. 

By far, the biggest expense under the “Welfare” category is not welfare at all.  It is “Social Exclusion n.e.c.”  N.E.C is not elsewhere considered.  And the biggest chunk of that is “Earned Income Tax Credits” which are really the only tax breaks available to low income and moderate income working families.  So the money that these families are NOT PAYING in taxes is being counted as welfare.  In this chart, however, they neglected to include the money that higher income individual families and corporations are NOT PAYING in taxes.  When you get to depreciate the value of your investment property, and get a tax break.  I don’t see that anywhere.  When you shelter your money pre-tax in 401k’s or IRAs.  When you get to write off the interest on the mortgage on your second home.  When corporations get “incentives” or “rebates” or “exemptions.”  You don’t see any of that anywhere. 

“Family and Children” make up the second biggest category, and as I previously mentioned, this includes everything from actual “welfare” known as TANF to subsidized school lunches, to the provision of special formula to moderate income women who just gave birth to babies who are unable to nurse. 

The third largest expense under the “Welfare” category is unemployment payments.  That is not welfare.  You (and your employer) been paying into unemployment insurance.  And when you lose your job, you get some of that money back.  It is not welfare.

The next largest category is “Housing.”  While there is certainly a lot of assistance listed there for families facing eviction, for housing for senior citizens, costs associated  with housing projects, and whatnot,   one of the biggest expenses listed under the subcategory of housing is “Troubled Asset Relief Program” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program .  Started under George Bush, this is the bailout to financial institutions who got burned after decades of using increasingly predatory loan practices.  Not much to do with single moms here either.  But the good news is, under this program, many people in the financial industry were able to maintain those 6 and 7 figure bonuses during hard fiscal times.

Thank you very much for this clarifiaction. I am not perfect. BUT, I do think that the chart I posted gives HIM (Wayne) the benefit of the doubt. So, in as many cases as is possible, I would rather quote a site/resource that HE would support (i.e. - a known 'conservative' site) instead of one that he wouldn't. I do believe that makes my argument even stronger, as even IF the national spending on welfare was 12% (which it's not) that number is still not some HUGE majority which is causing the sky to fall in America. However, this issue IS off topic.

As with most religious people (as I was for nearly 20 years), he is delusional and practicing confirmation bias to support a presupposition (and a lifelong emotional investment) in a belief system he's had since childhood. It's the proverbial Santa Claus for grown-ups syndrome. Sad but true.

[WayneHarropson]

You are talking to someone who believes that Jesus Christ is who he said he was, Truth incarnate.  He said: I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by Me.  That for me is an authoritative statement from someone I trust.  I may not know a lot of things, but I know that.

A few questions for you then... 

Who wrote it?

mostly first hand witnesses.

Did you know them?

No
 

Did Jesus himself write it?

The Holy Spirit aided the human writers.

 How do you know Jesus even said it? [/quote] I don't.
 

Were you there?

No I wasn't 

How do you know you can trust the author?

Faith I guess.

I understand why you are asking all these questions but maybe I can simplify it all and tell you that some, but not all of what I have read in the new testament has been confirmed by my personal experience and that which hasn't I take by my faith in the unknown.  There is a scripture that says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct thy paths.  Proverbs 3:5,6.

My personal experience confirms that verse and so lends some leeway for me when I encounter something in the bible that I don't understand.  My confidence is not in my understanding of anything or even in my being able to interpret God's intent with any scripture, but in his Holy Spirit directing me as he will with or without the use of scripture, with or without my understanding of it.  It becomes quite personal and individual as that scripture says it is.

 

Is it not simply more likely that he's lying, or that he really believes it but is just wrong about it?  Could the people who told you to trust the bible have been wrong about it?

 

People can be wrong about a lot of things, even with regard to the meaning of scripture.  I listen to others, I learn what I can, and then I trust God not to be carried off into error.

Why do you not trust Mohamed?  Or L. Ron Hubbard?  They said stuff too, and the only difference is that you weren't raised to believe that everything they said was right.  That's the only difference and you know it.

[/quote]

I get no confirmations from the spirit about what false teachers have said, and hope not to be tricked by them.

But here's the problem Wayne.  You believe things too easily, and then you only look at and focus on things that reinforce your deluded beliefs.  You don't really stop to consider the alternate position, and that's why you dodge around so much of what we tell you here.

I listen to what you tell me, and trust God for the discernment if any of it sheds light on any error I might be harboring, but if it doesn't, you will have to forgive me for dismissing it.
 

You're spewing and spewing stupid stuff that doesn't mean anything to thinking people, but I'm sure in your personal life, you've been around people who fall for this stuff as easily as you do, and that's really, really sad. 

I'm glad for your concern even when I'm certain it is misplaced.

I'll give you an example of what I mean to prove my point.  You say you trust what Jesus said, but step back out of your God belief for a moment and consider it from a standpoint of 'I don't know if God is real'.  Like any statement in any book, what Jesus said could either be true or false.  This is a fact that you can't escape from and that you can not ignore.  Now... the bible authors (whoever they may be) wrote that Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the light.  Fine.  Now, ask yourself... if you found 10 holy books on a table, all of them with people making claims that were supernatural in origin (including one which has Jesus saying that he was the way, the truth and the light), how do you distinguish between which one is trustworthy and which one is not?  What it would boil down to is the individual statements in each book and how they stack up against reality, correct? 

If it weren't for the Spirit of God confirming the truthfulness of these ancient writings all you your scepticism would be well placed.  A believer is not left alone in all of this but is tutored by the spirit of god directly.  When I was a child I took the truths of the bible by rote, when I matured God reinforces what he wanted confirmed to me and that is the basis of my enduring faith in it.  It even works in the case of mistranslated texts in the King James bible, the mistranslations may misdirect my understanding for a time, and maybe forever, but I do not worship the texts, just the spirit that inspired it.  There is nothing sacred about a bible, it can be flushed, burned, torn or desecrated in any way and it would never bother me, as it is the Christ hidden in the meanings of the text that instructs not the paper and the ink.  Tell that to a Muslim about the Koran.

Given this, is it more likely that Jesus is ACTUALLY the way, the truth and the light, or that he just said he was, and really he wasn't?  Or that they made it up, or some other possibility that we haven't looked at?  The point is that the least likely thing is that Jesus really was what he said he was.  If you disagree, then ask yourself what you would say to a man who came up to you on the street and said it to you today.  Would you simply buy it?  You're gullible, but I doubt you'd buy it.  Then imagine you lived 100 years ago and someone said it.  Would you believe it then?  1000 years?  2000?  Whats the difference?  Nothing.  It would be just as dumb back then as it is now.  The notion that he is who he says is the least likely for the same reasons that it is least likely for the supernatural claims of the 9 other books to be true.  Do you disagree with that?  Does that not make you see how you've been brainwashed to believe that ONE book out of the literally thousands of books you could read with supernatural events in them, holds truth while the others do not? 

I think I answered this above.  By the way it's: "I am the way the truth and the LIFE,..."  but no biggie, he just so happens to be the light as well. 

In a nutshell, you are completely abandoning the normal way you determine whether a book can be trusted in favor of simply going along with what other people (whom you trust) have told you throughout your life.  Maybe it's time you stop thinking like a little boy and start thinking like a man.  Use your reason for once.  Stop being an idiot.  You've been lied to.  The whole thing is a myth.

 
Your need to insult doesn't strengthen you case, but I'm learning to expect that from Atheists.

Thankfully all of the doubts that would legitimise normal healthy scepticism is made unnecessary by an abiding Spirit, but without that spirit, all bet's are off, even with an accurate translation of holy scripture.  An example of that is catholics kneeling at images, when the ten commandments forbids it.  False doctrine is rampant and all that confusion legitimises Atheists claims.

You're premonition / low odds take on things is theologically sound for you given your assumptions about the world, Wayne.  Unfortunately for you, if this world had no god in it, things that you hook together can be easily explained as just very minor (and sometimes even ridiculously lame) coincidences.  Nothing more.  They aren't even like... "WOW what a coincidence" things.  They're really weak.  You're brain just can't see them that way, but truthfully, you're probably a statistics and probability class away from laughing at your own stupidity.

You would like to laugh it off and your confirmation bias actually requires it of you. In answer I will simply add one more amazing incident to my preponderance of incidents.  This one is of a premonition that is answered by a more immediate fulfillment that goes like this:

One morning at Paul's Coffee shop I had a vision, the restaurant went into upheaval; some screaming, some laughing, some running out the door, everything disrupted.  This vision occurred as I stared into my eggs as they went cold. 

Two days later I returned to the same restaurant, sat in same counter stool and then the October 1 1987 earthquake caused the same thing I had seen in the vision.  I had just told the lady next to me that Pat Robertson would have an impact on the nation and as I said the word impact the quake began.  A waitress screamed and ran outside, commotion ensued but the lady and I just laughed. Exactly like the vision.

I should mention that Pat Robertson, on that very day, announced his candidacy for presidency in New York, where he got his start.  You would think that I might have known that because I watched 700 Club back then, but I didn't.
The reason I told the stranger lady what I thought about Robertson was that I overheard her telling someone next to her about the announcement. How rude of me to interrupt their conversation.

You can't tell me that's not funny.

Now to summerize how remarkable it all was, this is what God had to do to make it all happen.  He knew exactly to the second when the EQ was going to occur.  He gave me a two day advance notice, without telling me it was going to be an earthquake.  He lead me back to the same chair, which was open and waiting for me at a crowded counter and placed next to me a stranger lady that just happened to be a telephone prayer councellor from a local 700 club location (california is along way from Virginia Beach).  I overheard her talking about Robertson and butted into the conversation.  The timing of my words were so precise that we both went giddy in the midst of a potential disaster. Every element of my vision was represented at that moment.  What a coincidence,  er sorry, there I go again using the wrong term. 
What was it about that statistics class again?  What was it about laughing?



 

[Willie]

There is a scripture that says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct thy paths.  Proverbs 3:5,6.

What would be your reaction if you read or heard a similar scripture from some other religion, one that does not pervade your culture, one that was not drummed into you as a child? What would be your reaction if you heard that same advice from a political leader? Doesn't it seem like exactly the kind of advice that you might expect from someone who's trying to maniupulate you into believing false things?

[edit]

One additional point. Have you noticed that no one here has given you advice like that? Have any of us told you to distrust reason and knowledge and instead just believe what you're told? Have you ever read or heard any advice like that from Dawkins or Hitchens or any other atheist, agnostic, or science figure? Could it be that the atheists, agnostics, and scientists are among the few people who aren't trying to manipulate you into believing false things?

[JeffPT]

I understand why you are asking all these questions but maybe I can simplify it all and tell you that some, but not all of what I have read in the new testament has been confirmed by my personal experience and that which hasn't I take by my faith in the unknown.  There is a scripture that says: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct thy paths.  Proverbs 3:5,6.

Yes, but that could be just as much of a falsehood as anything else, couldn't it?  What if that's simply words in a book?  If you read 'Trust in Thor with all your heart', what about that is worth listening to?  Yet you change it to 'The Lord' (the one you've been indoctrinated to believe in since birth) and suddenly it makes sense?  Whatever...

My personal experience confirms that verse and so lends some leeway for me when I encounter something in the bible that I don't understand.  My confidence is not in my understanding of anything or even in my being able to interpret God's intent with any scripture, but in his Holy Spirit directing me as he will with or without the use of scripture, with or without my understanding of it.  It becomes quite personal and individual as that scripture says it is.

Your personal experience only confirms that verse because you start with that verse and feed everything through it Wayne.  I could tell you to trust in a rock and you'd get the same outcome if you filtered everything that happened to you through the belief that you should trust the rock. 

Let me ask you something... if you believe in Proverbs 3:5,6, what experience could possibly lead you to think it's NOT true?  Is there anything?  What could happen to make you think that you shouldn't trust the lord with all your heart?  If you superimpose this statement on everything that happens to you, then what could possibly make you think otherwise?  Believing that you should trust God no matter what is a perfect barrier to using your own logic.  Even the worst possible tragedies can be explained away by saying 'trust God, trust God, trust God' over and over again. 

What evidence do you have of a 'Holy Spirit'? 

People can be wrong about a lot of things, even with regard to the meaning of scripture.  I listen to others, I learn what I can, and then I trust God not to be carried off into error.

The people who told you to trust the bible, or to 'have faith' could be wrong.  You too, could be wrong. 

I get no confirmations from the spirit about what false teachers have said, and hope not to be tricked by them.

What is a 'confirmation from the spirit'?  What confirmations from the spirit have you gotten from the God you do believe in?  Do you not think Allah could have sent the gas leak to the Batman movie?  Is Allah a fan of that sort of movie?  Or could it not just have been a gas leak? 

If it weren't for the Spirit of God confirming the truthfulness of these ancient writings all you your scepticism would be well placed.

Prove that there is a Spirit of God Wayne, then talk to me.  Otherwise you know it could all be in your head.  You can't sit there and say you're taking that little exercise seriously if you can't admit that there might not be a God in the first place.  You know as well as I do that if you never came upon the bible in your travels and you read it cover to cover, you'd think it was just as nutty as the other 9 holy books on that table. 

When I was a child I took the truths of the bible by rote, when I matured God reinforces what he wanted confirmed to me and that is the basis of my enduring faith in it.

Brain...washed.  All religions do it.  You're so deep in it now you can't even see the top of the hole anymore. 

It even works in the case of mistranslated texts in the King James bible, the mistranslations may misdirect my understanding for a time, and maybe forever, but I do not worship the texts, just the spirit that inspired it.  There is nothing sacred about a bible, it can be flushed, burned, torn or desecrated in any way and it would never bother me, as it is the Christ hidden in the meanings of the text that instructs not the paper and the ink.  Tell that to a Muslim about the Koran.

What if no spirit inspired it? If we don't know the authors, have no original writings, we weren't there, there are no historians that speak of Jesus until 100 years after his death, and can't show a single shred of evidence that there is any such thing as a 'spirit' then maybe it was just written by people who were told things many years after they supposedly happened, but the events themselves never happened.  If that is true, then the God you worship is just all in your mind and you've conjured him after many, many years of being told it's there.  This same thing has happened to millions and millions of people who've been led to believe things about gods that are different than the one you believe in, yet for some reason you think YOU'RE the one who has it right?  Could you possibly be more arrogant?  Why do you think you're immune from being wrong, yet others aren't?  Couldn't you be just as wrong as them?  Of course you could. 

In a nutshell, you are completely abandoning the normal way you determine whether a book can be trusted in favor of simply going along with what other people (whom you trust) have told you throughout your life.  Maybe it's time you stop thinking like a little boy and start thinking like a man.  Use your reason for once.  Stop being an idiot.  You've been lied to.  The whole thing is a myth.

 
Your need to insult doesn't strengthen you case, but I'm learning to expect that from Atheists.

You know what we've learned to expect from theists?  Completely dodging the point and responding only to the insult.  Man up Wayne.  Put your big boy pants on.  You are abandoning the way you determine fact from fiction in order to give credence to the bible and you know it.  The whole thing is a myth. 

Thankfully all of the doubts that would legitimise normal healthy scepticism is made unnecessary by an abiding Spirit, but without that spirit, all bet's are off, even with an accurate translation of holy scripture.  An example of that is catholics kneeling at images, when the ten commandments forbids it.  False doctrine is rampant and all that confusion legitimises Atheists claims.

Stop trying to deflect away from your own idiocy by pointing out the idiocy of other believers.  It doesn't make your position less nuts. 

There is no spirit.  It's all in your head.  If you can't prove a spirit, then you're no better off than where you started from.  We tell you there's no God and you say that would be legitimate if not for the spirit, but all you've done is traded one unprovable thing (God) for another one (spirit) as if you've got the upper hand.  Prove God or prove the spirit... I don't care which.  If you can't, then skepticism is well founded. 

What was it about that statistics class again?  What was it about laughing?

Let me tell you one of mine... Earlier tonight I was sitting at my computer, typing an e-mail, when all of a sudden I heard the television in the other room.  It was playing a re-run basketball game.  Duke versus Miami.  It was near the end and Miami was killing them, but Duke was ranked number 1 in the nation and Miami was hardly in the top 25.  So I thought about it and I was like, alright, Duke... who else is the Duke?  John Wayne!  WayneHarropson!  It all fits!  So I logged in and sure enough, you'd posted to me.  Then I realized I've never been to Miami, but Miami is in Florida and I was in Florida last month for a Disney trip with my kids.  Disney is fictional characters, so God is fiction!  It all makes sense!  The nothingness spirit is telling me God is fiction and it's telling me to make fun of you some more.  So here I am. 

Yes, I'm still laughing at you Wayne.  I don't take what you say seriously when you talk about the events in your life because A, I've known too many liars for Jesus, B, memories can be faulty when you construct them after the fact and you're likely embellishing it to make yourself look better, C, you don't understand statistics and probability, and D, you believe in a spirit of some sort that you can't prove and then expect to use that as a reason to keep believing as you do. 

[Anfauglir]

..... this is what God had to do to make it all happen.  He knew exactly to the second when the EQ was going to occur.  He gave me a two day advance notice, without telling me it was going to be an earthquake.  He lead me back to the same chair, which was open and waiting for me at a crowded counter and placed next to me a stranger lady that just happened to be a telephone prayer councellor from a local 700 club location (california is along way from Virginia Beach).  I overheard her talking about Robertson and butted into the conversation.  The timing of my words were so precise that we both went giddy in the midst of a potential disaster. Every element of my vision was represented at that moment.  What a coincidence,  er sorry, there I go again using the wrong term. 
What was it about that statistics class again?  What was it about laughing?

Hilarious, Wayne.  Three people died in that earthquake.  A regular laugh riot.  Your god knew it was a comin', and sent you a premonition that you didn't recognise until after the event, so that you could go "wee-hoo!  Ain't I special!".

Three people died in that earthquake.  Should I be laughing?

If everything in your paragraph above is true, Wayne, then you have told a story of a god who has all the means and opporttunity necessary to save those people.....and didn't.  It used its colossal power and knowledge to give you a funky little story to tell to make people go "ooooh". 

Three people died in that earthquake.  Should I be impressed?

A waitress screamed and ran outside, commotion ensued but the lady and I just laughed

Keep laughing, Wayne, while you think about how you and yur god between you could have saved those three lives - but didn't.

[Azdgari]

They're with God[1] now, Anfauglir.  Their deaths aren't a tragedy to Wayne, so why wouldn't he find it joyous, or at least trivial, that they died?

1.	Unless they weren't 'born again in Christ'.  Then they're in the other place.

[Disciple of Sagan]

Gotta wonder if Noah & Co. were also getting a good chuckle at all of the men, women, children and infants drowning all around them.

[DumpsterFire]

So can we safely assume that Wayne has finally turned tail and run, or is he simply incapable of posting a reply that won't get moderated?

[wheels5894]

Not necessarily. He does work away from home so can';t always be available and, besides, he posted last Friday and may well have been busy with church over the weekend.

Give him time

[WayneHarropson]

So can we safely assume that Wayne has finally turned tail and run, or is he simply incapable of posting a reply that won't get moderated?

O ye of little faith.

Not necessarily. He does work away from home so can';t always be available and, besides, he posted last Friday and may well have been busy with church over the weekend.

Give him time

Thanks Wheels.  I just got done reading all of your responses and maybe I can do what I can to answer them in this one.  Here Goes.

To JeffPT,

Forgive me but you like others here are shooting at me with a machine gun, basically telling me that I'm a liar as you said and I quote: 

I've known too many liars for Jesus,

Let me ask you something... if you believe in Proverbs 3:5,6, what experience could possibly lead you to think it's NOT true?  Is there anything?  What could happen to make you think that you shouldn't trust the lord with all your heart?

 

That is actually a good question.  Some Christians have lived really miserable lives. All of the heroes of Christianity have endured unbelievable hardship and devestation.  In a way, people of faith are made to endure incomprehensible paradoxes, and it typically drives them closer to God.  Who knows that I might suffer such a plight in my lifetime, but if I do, I can have the assurance that the same spirit that inspired the psalmist to say "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil." is the same one that is with me.  A grand drama is being played out here on earth to test us.  You must know the story of Job.  If the spirit of God could keep Job in all his trials, that same Spirit can keep me.  Without that spirit, I'm certain to be crushed.

If you superimpose this statement on everything that happens to you, then what could possibly make you think otherwise?  Believing that you should trust God no matter what is a perfect barrier to using your own logic.  Even the worst possible tragedies can be explained away by saying 'trust God, trust God, trust God' over and over again. 

If a supernatural being that created you gives you a promise, he has the ability to keep it.  I need to use my logic to adjust to every worldly thing, but still I must submit to a god that transends it all.  It's like give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's.  It's tricky, I know, and I'm doing my best to navigate it all.

What evidence do you have of a 'Holy Spirit'?

    I'm going to simply say that by design, a spirit is something god created to be able to communicate to believers and to shut you out.  The spirit is a spirit for the purpose of defying your need for proof.  I'm guessing about His reasons for a spirit, but you may as well stop asking me to prove something to someone from whom God has hidden the proof. 

You could however  just try to imagine yourself in my place in my stories.  I often ask what others might have done differently than I if the things that happened to me happened to them.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that I interpreted every incident perfectly, in fact, as history proves, I mostly didn't know initially what it means, but God was faithful in time to make the meanings more clear.  The meanings behind three consecutive earthquakes may yet to be revealed..., but what I do know about it is that people are full of Joy, and others are full of terror.  Lucky me.

Brain...washed.  All religions do it.  You're so deep in it now you can't even see the top of the hole anymore. 

Youare absolutely right to be sceptical for that very reason.  Satan is an excellent and highly accomplished impostor.  I pray diligently that I not be carried off on some fools errand.  Satan is smarter than I and I know it.  But he is not more powerful that God.  The scripture says, greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.(Satan)


I'd like to answer each bullet Jeff has sprayed at me but after a while, it is a bit futile to talk to someone that needs so much to insult.  It isn't just Jeff, there are a few other angry people that are taking their frustrations out on me and can't control their need to demean.  I feel sorry for you Jeff.

Now, How about that earthquake story.  I sense from some responses that I'm being treated like I'm not lying and I really appreciate that. 

..... this is what God had to do to make it all happen. 

Hilarious, Wayne.  Three people died in that earthquake.  A regular laugh riot.  Your god knew it was a comin', and sent you a premonition that you didn't recognise until after the event, so that you could go "wee-hoo!  Ain't I special!".

It is weird I know.

Three people died in that earthquake.  Should I be laughing?

Maybe I wouldn't laugh if I was you.  There is a profound and dire message here for those who reject God. 

If everything in your paragraph above is true, Wayne, then you have told a story of a god who has all the means and opportunity necessary to save those people.....and didn't.  It used its colossal power and knowledge to give you a funky little story to tell to make people go "ooooh". 

It's weird isn't it.  What would you do if you were me, not tell anybody about it?

Three people died in that earthquake.  Should I be impressed?

I don't know but I sure was.

Keep laughing, Wayne, while you think about how you and yur god between you could have saved those three lives - but didn't.

I know earthquakes are serious.  I know people die.  It hurts when we lose loved ones, but God obviously has a different view of life and death and has provided for believers an escape for the sting of death.  Believers can suffer, pain, and the loss of loved ones like anybody else.  I am reporting accurately as I can what has happened to me.  It is weird that in my vision someone was laughing and that it turned out to be me, and the lady I was talking to, but Christian's are known to have a peace that passes understanding and so, as strange as the circumstances were, I was visited with the absolute opposite of fear and terror, I was visited with joy unspeakable and full of glory.

This is heavy stuff.  I'm not laughing at you responding like you are to it because for an unbeliever it probably should elicit terror.  I think, between you and I, we are approaching the point of it all.

Gotta wonder if Noah & Co. were also getting a good chuckle at all of the men, women, children and infants drowning all around them.

My laughter was in context to the words that came from my  mouth, and the power of the God who inspired me to speak it as I did.  That Spirit did not trouble me with the thoughts of dying people, and if He had I would have mourned.  As it was in my Dark Knight Premonition I was being blessed with the joy of God's presence and even called the story an example of his sense of humor because he was making me laugh.
But just think about this.  If it is a god that promises blessings to the obedient and cursings to the disobedient, why wouldn't he do things in exactly the way hes doing it with me.  He didn't torture me with a vision of a theater being strafed with a semi automatic rifle and a gas bomb when I was just taking my daughter out to a movie, he waited until twenty three years later, and now my daughter is twenty nine .  When I realised the connection to my old story, I was shocked and stunned, but I began to understand that he is omniscient, and had chosen me to write about it so you could have an opportunity to believe that He's there and he means business..

Did you know that people who believe without seeing are more blessed that ones that have seen?  John 20:29 says:

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

They're with God[1] now, Anfauglir.  Their deaths aren't a tragedy to Wayne, so why wouldn't he find it joyous, or at least trivial, that they died?

1.	Unless they weren't 'born again in Christ'.  Then they're in the other place.

Thanks for your comment.  Death was not on my mind at the time of the laughing, but I'm sure my thoughts pondered in the following days how awesome the whole event was.  Within a weeks time of that event i told the story to a member of the church I joined while we sat in his house.  When i told him about the screaming and the laughter, he pointed to a picture on his wall.  I found a grainy representation of it to past in here.  In the great and terrible day of the lord there will be both joy and anguish.  Joy for those who have hope in Jesus Christ and anguish for those who have rejected him.

Here is the kicker.  I joined the church, and was baptised on the 17th of October, seventeen days after the earthquake.  You may remember that I said that three consecutive earthquakes had significance to me?  Without telling you a whole new story here, one element of one of the other earthquakes was that it occurred on October 17th, Loma Prieta. The fact that it coincides with the anniversary of my baptism is NOT the most remarkable part of the story I haven't told you, but for fun, I'll mention just that part here.  Oh, just one more thing.  Missionaries I was assigned to drive to their appointments Sunday after the October 17th earthquake that I'm not telling you the story of... lived on San Andreas Street in Fountain Valley.  Now, remember, this is only trivia of the real story.

It's past my bedtime.  If there are any Christian's listening in, ones that know of a publisher that would like to help me consolidate my stories, there could be some kind of a finder's fee if anything came of it all.  Feel free to PM me.

[Anfauglir]

If everything in your paragraph above is true, Wayne, then you have told a story of a god who has all the means and opportunity necessary to save those people.....and didn't.  It used its colossal power and knowledge to give you a funky little story to tell to make people go "ooooh". 

It's weird isn't it.  What would you do if you were me, not tell anybody about it?
.....
This is heavy stuff.  I'm not laughing at you responding like you are to it because for an unbeliever it probably should elicit terror.  I think, between you and I, we are approaching the point of it all.

You may not be laughing Wayne, but you sure as hell aren't taking it seriously - and still dodging the point of my questions.  So let me spell it out for you quite clearly, and see if you have the honesty to actually answer the question.

1) Your god had the means and opportunity to save the lives of three people.
2) He chose instead to send you a "message" you could not understand until after the fact.
3) Had your god acted differently - had YOU acted differently - three people would be alive today who are not.

I want to know exactly why your god chose to do what he did.
And I want to know exactly how you define the actions it took as "good".

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.

I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

[screwtape]

basically telling me that I'm a liar

I can see why poeple would think that, Wayne.  You keep repeating information that has been shown to be untrue. (Can it even be called information if it isn't true?)  I've shown you over and over, with evidence, and you keep singing the same wrong tune.  That looks a lot like lying.   

All of the heroes of Christianity have endured unbelievable hardship and devestation.

Baloney.  Billy Graham?  David of the OT?  Solomon?  Jacob? 

And everyone endures some hardship in their lives.  Even spoiled, rich sluts like Paris Hilton.  That is how life is.  Upon us all a little rain must fall.  There is nothing special about xians.

 

You must know the story of Job.

Yes.  And I'm pretty sure we get different lessons from that story.
explanation in this post --> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22901.msg511501.html#msg511501

If a supernatural being that created you gives you a promise, he has the ability to keep it.

Ability?  Sure.  But yhwh is under no obligation to keep his promises to us.  See Job about that.

I'm going to simply say that by design, a spirit is something god created to be able to communicate to believers and to shut you out. 

wow.  So much for the idea of a caring god who loves everyone and wants everyone to be with him in heaven.  No, sir.  Wayne Harropson's god is intentionally misleading some of us and thereby dooming us to eternal torture.  That is quite an evil god you have there, Wayne.

but you may as well stop asking me to prove something to someone from whom God has hidden the proof. 

So yhwh has hidden his himself from us.  How can we be blamed for not believing?  It might help you to know that I was once xian.  I spent several years trying to find yhwh.  He apparently did not want me to find him.  Either that, or he just does not exist.  The latter made more sense to me.

Did you know that people who believe without seeing are more blessed that ones that have seen?  John 20:29 says:

That makes it completely impossible for you to know the difference between wrong beliefs and true beliefs.  Because the only way to tell truth from fiction is to compare the beliefs to observed reality.  But if you are expected to believe without any evidence, well, there is literally no way to find the truth.  I could say yhwh is purple, and I believe it on faith, and there is no way for you to refute it. I could say yhwh is huge talking scrotum, and I believe it on faith, and there is no way for you to refute it.  And I would be more blessed for believing these ridiculous things without having seen evidence.  Wayne, this bible verse is the path to stupidity or madness.   

[DumpsterFire]

So can we safely assume that Wayne has finally turned tail and run, or is he simply incapable of posting a reply that won't get moderated?

O ye of little faith.

Well played, sir.

Apparently, my level of faith is low even by atheist standards. No small feat. 

[wheels5894]

I'm going to simply say that by design, a spirit is something god created to be able to communicate to believers and to shut you out.  The spirit is a spirit for the purpose of defying your need for proof.  I'm guessing about His reasons for a spirit, but you may as well stop asking me to prove something to someone from whom God has hidden the proof. 

That is one way of looking at it and amounts,  think to double predestination. I don't know if you believe this way or not but basically those who believe were destined to do so and will be off to heaven whilst those that don't believe we also destined to do so and we go... to some other place. (I'm taking the butter and my wife is taking the bread and a friend the toasting fork. Might as well enjoy toast, what with all the fires!

Actually, if you believed like this you wouldn't do any evangelising as it would be pointless as not one could be saved that way.

You are absolutely right to be sceptical for that very reason.  Satan is an excellent and highly accomplished impostor.  I pray diligently that I not be carried off on some fools errand.  Satan is smarter than I and I know it.  But he is not more powerful that God.  The scripture says, greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.(Satan)

What good old satan eh! You know Job, Wayne, so you will know in that book he gets a definite article - the accuser. (he's like a prosecution lawyer) he is sitting in the heavenly court, chatting with god. Could you tell me how he gets into the dreaded character (or amusing if UK readers like Any Hamilton's take!) Christianity paints him. Of course, as it stands, satan and god are merely names to which most of us cannot attach a being, given that they are hiding from us. 

It's past my bedtime.  If there are any Christian's listening in, ones that know of a publisher that would like to help me consolidate my stories, there could be some kind of a finder's fee if anything came of it all.  Feel free to PM me.

Why not start buy getting everything typed up in word and then get a converter off the web to create Kindle format. You can then sell them on the Kindle site with Amazon. There is minimal cost to you and, more importantly, no storage of  printed matter. There must be millions of us now looking for electronic books rather than hard copy books. Not only so they save sapce but they can be read on smartphones. Give it a try.

[ParkingPlaces]

One of these two guys need some feedback from you Wayne. Presumably it has deep meaning but everyone is mistakenly looking at it as a coincidence. I'm pretty sure you can figure it out and let the news media know what is actually going on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6762605/Two-retired-policeman-with-same-name-ended-up-side-by-side-in-hospital.html

[wheels5894]

Simples - god would vote conservative (in the UK or course!)

[WayneHarropson]

If everything in your paragraph above is true, Wayne, then you have told a story of a god who has all the means and opportunity necessary to save those people.....and didn't.  It used its colossal power and knowledge to give you a funky little story to tell to make people go "ooooh". 

It's weird isn't it.  What would you do if you were me, not tell anybody about it?
.....
This is heavy stuff.  I'm not laughing at you responding like you are to it because for an unbeliever it probably should elicit terror.  I think, between you and I, we are approaching the point of it all.

You may not be laughing Wayne, but you sure as hell aren't taking it seriously - and still dodging the point of my questions.  So let me spell it out for you quite clearly, and see if you have the honesty to actually answer the question.

1) Your god had the means and opportunity to save the lives of three people.

First off, three people aren't that many people, and just think of all the people that died that day of other calamities that God didn't keep from going to their just rewards.
You flatter me to ask though thanks.

2) He chose instead to send you a "message" you could not understand until after the fact.

  I'm off the hook for those three deaths is what you are saying.  I'm sure glad of that.

3) Had your god acted differently - had YOU acted differently - three people would be alive today who are not.

  I think that's true of God, but again, I'd be allowing you to flatter me to respond in a way that attributed any power to me one way or the other.

I want to know exactly why your god chose to do what he did.
And I want to know exactly how you define the actions it took as "good".

In eternity, the end of life on earth could be defined as good, to a Christian

Final question: imagine I KNOW, 100%, that an imminent event will cause several deaths.  That I have the power to warn someone, someone who may be able to prevent those deaths.
I do not do so.  Am I good or evil, Wayne?

  I'm glad you are not talking about me.  You know I had no idea.  God knew, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about it.  He's God after all.  We would like him to worry about things at the level that we see them but that just isn't the case, and that is obvious. 

I can understand your frustration but this dilemma didn't start with my vision, and it won't end with our discussion about it.  To put it in perspective three deaths in an earthquake is about as weak of an example of this dilemma as can be imagined, what about 911.  Now that is dramatic.  What about tsunami's? Let's rattle some global disasters off.  This is peanuts.  I'm not diminishing your quandary I'm saying God sees it differently than we do.

[WayneHarropson]

basically telling me that I'm a liar

I can see why people would think that, Wayne.  You keep repeating information that has been shown to be untrue. (Can it even be called information if it isn't true?)  I've shown you over and over, with evidence, and you keep singing the same wrong tune.  That looks a lot like lying.

People called GW Bush a liar and attributed amazing feats of fantastical diabolical skulduggery to him and then called him an idiot.  They couldn't make up their minds.  The guy was a victim of circumstances beyond his control and was as honest as he was capable of being about every element of it.  I love the conspiracies though.  As a matter of fact,  I just got done reviewing some 911 conspiracy theories and George and his dad were in way over their heads for sure.  The conspiracy theories really do expose some amazing coincidences not the least of which is the fact that the very day of nine eleven the military had a whole bunch of jets on maneuvers elsewhere doing excersizes emulating responding to passenger jets slamming into buildings.  Now,  If I were God, and really wanted to drive a point home to the military infrastructure that I'm not smiling on them, I would punk them with so many bizarre coincidences to expose how utterly defenseless they are without my favor that their knees would rattle and their jaws would go slack.  I don't know that that is what happened, but I can imagine it.  By the way, George wasn't lying, he believed everything he said.  I do think that they shot down the plane in Pennsylvania though, they lied to us about that and gave all the credit to the guys on board.  The truth is so precious that it needs a body guard of lies is what the British said about WWII.  There are some things I will forgive men of lying for, and that's one of them.  The queston then becomes, if it was an inside job that Bush and Cheney knew all about, why did they shoot down the plane?  Why didn't they take credit for shooting it down to prove they weren't part of the conspiracy to fly the planes into the towers. Or alternatively allow it to finish its mission. 

Oh, sorry, the subject was that I'm likely just a garden variety liar that just can't help myself and so my word can't be trusted.  Good luck with that one.  My extended response may give you a hint at why I was slow to respond. Whatever the conspiracies are, America is sunk and God did it, by simply lifing his hand.  Pretty scary huh.

All of the heroes of Christianity have endured unbelievable hardship and devastation.

Baloney.  Billy Graham?  David of the OT?  Solomon?  Jacob?

 

I did say all, I only meant many. Sorry about that.

And everyone endures some hardship in their lives.  Even spoiled, rich sluts like Paris Hilton.  That is how life is.  Upon us all a little rain must fall.  There is nothing special about xians.

I agree.
 

You must know the story of Job.

Yes.  And I'm pretty sure we get different lessons from that story.
explanation in this post --> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22901.msg511501.html#msg511501

What is a SPAG

If a supernatural being that created you gives you a promise, he has the ability to keep it.

Ability?  Sure.  But yhwh is under no obligation to keep his promises to us.  See Job about that.

   I do seem to be a bit idealistic on this point.  His promises might not seem fulfilled in the material world, I'm just going to see how it goes in eternity.  I'm resigned that his fulfillment means is up to him.

I'm going to simply say that by design, a spirit is something god created to be able to communicate to believers and to shut you out. 

wow.  So much for the idea of a caring god who loves everyone and wants everyone to be with him in heaven.  No, sir.  Wayne Harropson's god is intentionally misleading some of us and thereby dooming us to eternal torture.  That is quite an evil god you have there, Wayne.

I'm being a bit flippant I know but I did quote a scripture that says exactly that, and the presumption is that by believing (repening of unbelief), you at least have the possibility of getting in on a spiritual wonder.  My theories come from both scripture and experience.  I will say that, two alleged Christians may be in the same place at the same time and experience the same event differently.  I didn't really get to know that lady that laughed with me, but we both saw the same irony.  I have often wondered if having gotten to know her if I would have been able to call her for backup when people question my story.  Instead I'm somewhat left alone with the wonder of it without a witness, even though there was one.  Put me on a polygraph, deal with the good vs. evil of it as you must.  My report stands as stated.

but you may as well stop asking me to prove something to someone from whom God has hidden the proof. 

So yhwh has hidden his himself from us.  How can we be blamed for not believing?  It might help you to know that I was once xian.  I spent several years trying to find yhwh.  He apparently did not want me to find him.  Either that, or he just does not exist.  The latter made more sense to me.

For good or for bad, I hope you can forgive me that I cannot, and likely shall never have the option of concluding that He doesn't exist, no matter what should happen to me.  I think that is why I was sent here to talk to you all. I know how weird that sounds but I did have that dream of my leg being amputated, and my story was called: Why God Let Those Kid's Die.  And then here I am.  Everything happens for a reason.  I still haven't told you about flying to Chicago, driving a silver Mustang rental car, delivering my Idi Amin and Obama Has Two American Parents infor to the county City and State offices and then later realising that the silver mustang was a grey horse.  Maybe you'd like to read about that one here.  http://tinyurl.com/PaleMustang
Now I'm starting to scare myself a little bit.

That makes it completely impossible for you to know the difference between wrong beliefs and true beliefs.  Because the only way to tell truth from fiction is to compare the beliefs to observed reality.

 
My observed reality confirms many bible beliefs, even in a scary way.

But if you are expected to believe without any evidence, well, there is literally no way to find the truth.

I have only the obligation to proclaim what the supernatural god of the bible has told me, and it seems to be his intent that it confound your need for non supernatural proof.  How's He doing?
 

I could say yhwh is purple, and I believe it on faith, and there is no way for you to refute it. I could say yhwh is huge talking scrotum, and I believe it on faith, and there is no way for you to refute it.  And I would be more blessed for believing these ridiculous things without having seen evidence.  Wayne, this bible verse is the path to stupidity or madness.   

I'll let scripture answer that one for me.

I Cor. 1: 18- 25
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Would you like to bow in prayer now?

[nogodsforme]

You are right when you say that three dead people out of the billions on the planet is not that many. Would you say that "three lives is not that many" if we were talking about three teenage girls having first trimester abortions that day? That would also be god's will, just like an earthquake killing three people.

Or is it only god's will if it was late term miscarriages of babies that three married Christian women really wanted?

You live in a strange world, Wayne.

[WayneHarropson]

That is one way of looking at it and amounts,  think to double predestination. I don't know if you believe this way or not but basically those who believe were destined to do so and will be off to heaven whilst those that don't believe we also destined to do so and we go... to some other place. (I'm taking the butter and my wife is taking the bread and a friend the toasting fork. Might as well enjoy toast, what with all the fires!

Wheels, you are going to stump me on a lot of this. Predestination is a really interesting subject that I don't have the intellectual chops to do justice to.  I'll do my best without being the least bit dogmatic.  We are just stuck with an omniscient God.  He can't help himself but to already know what you are going to do.  It may be that he has actually given you a choice to trust him by blind faith,(if he hasn't proven himself in ways like he has me), but he hasn't left you alone in that circumstance.  He has surrounded you with people that do believe without seeing.  Predestination can and does sound like a prison sentence and I have to just chalk it up to one of those conundrums that we just have to deal with.  It is my belief that anyone on the toasty side actually does have a choice, it is just God's unique privilege to know before you do how it turns out.  No malice intended. This is all above my pay grade.  I suggest you ask him.  Maybe you could try some simple steps toward him like agreeing with him about sin.  Take a look at the Ten Commandments and visualise your life in full compliance.  Ask him to show you His attitude about some of the non compliant things in your life and if you find that you begin wanting to comply, like a dear child might want to comply to a fathers loving demands, that might prove to be a window into whether you have been predestined off the island.  I can't help you but I trust that His Holy Spirit can.

Actually, if you believed like this you wouldn't do any evangelising as it would be pointless as not one could be saved that way.

I don't believe it.

Of course, as it stands, Satan and god are merely names to which most of us cannot attach a being, given that they are hiding from us.

  John 3:16 is a verse that comes to mind.  If you find yourself questioning it like a prosecuting attorney, you might be approaching it form the wrong attitude. 

Why not start buy getting everything typed up in word and then get a converter off the web to create Kindle format. You can then sell them on the Kindle site with Amazon. There is minimal cost to you and, more importantly, no storage of  printed matter. There must be millions of us now looking for electronic books rather than hard copy books. Not only so they save space but they can be read on smartphones. Give it a try.

Thanks, I'm going to paste this into my to do list.  How do you like the title 'Speed's Tattoo'?  It is a take on the birthmark you may have read about on my hand that looks like a christian symbol of the Holy Spirit.  Most of it is written in word, none of it is organised.  I need help.

Thanks wheels.