Please validate your belief in your God

[Azdgari]

Since you appear to be such a big fan of posting data to back up your arguments, how about conjuring up any pertinent information detailing actual, detrimental effects same-sex marriage has caused in the United States (or anywhere else in the world for that matter)... besides the agita that appears to only afflict the religious right.

Well there are those awful hurricanes you've been getting down there.  Look at New Orleans.  Coincidence?   

[wheels5894]

Could the fact that out prime minister announced he would be legalising gay marriage in the UK have caused all the rain and flooding we have had in the last year, perhaps?

[bertatberts]

Though it is most likely Wayne had been told by god that our prime minister was going too, 20 years ago. And he's only now realized it was premonition.

[wheels5894]

Good premonitions if it takes 20 years to find out what it means! A person could be dead before finding out at that rate!

[ParkingPlaces]

All I have time to say right now is that for a non-scholar, he sure has a lot of definite answers.

I'll be back a little later and berate him. In a non-scholarly way, so he'll understand.

[ParkingPlaces]

I'M BAAAAAAACK!

I'll go easy. Quick question Wayne. I know you think you've answered this but I'm going to add something new. Information.

You provided the crime chart from the good Mr. Barton, and called it accurate. We provided data that said it was no longer accurate and you called told us that we were using biased data.

Here is the question. Do you realize that our data was from exactly the same place the Mr. Barton got it? That the only difference was that it was 20+ years newer. I just need to know that you understand that we weren't making it up, we were getting it from the FBI just the same way Mr. Barton did. Our graphs match his graphs, but continue on past 1989, when the fall in crime started showing up.

Do you understand this. And though you've already excused yourself from those numbers in an earlier post, do you understand that if the numbers had happened to keep rising, you would be clinging too them like a leech and using them as proof that you are right? You have rejected them because they don't go well with your premises. If the criminal population in this country had done as you wanted, then you would be loving those same charts. (I'm doing a Rush Limbaugh and repeating myself a million times, because right wingers like that). Do you get it?

You are trying to win every argument because it would be inconvenient of you to do otherwise. You are still talking at us. We have been extraordinarily lenient with you but I'm guessing that by the end of the day our patience will run out and both the tone of our posts and the list of your options here will have changed.

One more thing. You're old enough to remember Idi Amin? If he were like Idi Amin, and killing people at the same rate, we would have buried an additional 12,000,000 Americans since he took office. Are you still alive?

Then Obama is no Idi Amin.

[DumpsterFire]

First of all, science makes no claims about God one way or another, so it is not the scientists who are for the most part claiming God does not exist on the grounds that there is a lack of evidence, but the scientific layman asserting it.

Science makes no specific claims about gods because there is absolutely zero quantifiable evidence that any exist. Science makes no claims about leprechauns for the same reason.

Second, science for all its great accomplishments is still in the infant stage, there is much about nature it simply does not know, even on this planet. So to conclude that a discipline, which has limitations here and now, somehow can conclude that something beyond its immediate ability to study is the final word, is logically speaking, a fallacy.

The vast majority of folks here do not assert that there are absolutely no gods, they simply say that the utter lack of evidence for gods indicates that they are unlikely to exist. It is at least as fallacious to conclude with certainty that a god exists just because science doesn't have all the answers yet.

I would add that any god that needs to kill children to make a point does not deserve to be worshipped. Clearly you disagree. If you want to equate anyone with Idi Amin, it should be the guy you're praying to.

What I am here to introduce is a God that did not show himself to Franklin in the same way he did to me.

God hasn't shown himself to you either, Wayne, but you sure as heck believe he did.

The proof I have is in twenty year old writings that I was spiritually guided to rediscover long after I had forgotten them that unknownst to me portended a future of spiritual punishments to a nation that reneged on first principles.

And here we are back at square one, your '89 Batman story, the very foundation of all your pronouncements here. Its clear that you simply won't give credence to any reasonable interpretation of it that doesn't support divine intervention, so let me try another approach. Does it seem odd to you that god would go to such lengths to protect your little girl from seeing a film containing content that you found questionable, but later did nothing to prevent her from becoming an alcoholic? I would guess you said more than a few prayers for help when she started down the road to substance abuse.

This is real.  It is realer than real, and if you haven't yet taken a look at my Obama is America's Idi Amin, then you don't know the half of it.  We're in big heap'em trouble.  The nation is going to HE double hockeysticks for gay marriage, and you all that keep parroting the liars about separation of Church and state are going to get the afterlife version of that judgment.

Why is it that you automatically interpret a dream about Idi Amin driving a Jeep on the road to your place of business as a sign that Obama will become America's dictator? That seems more than a little racist to me. Let's see, the most obvious thing Amin and Obama have in common is...

Now don't try to position yourself on Franklin's side here.  Deist or not, Franklin's assertions fully support the same divine hand that gave me premonitions, and those premonitions don't come from No God.

No, they actually come from No Gods For Me. She has amazing telepathic powers.

edit: punctuation

[Disciple of Sagan]

Well there are those awful hurricanes you've been getting down there.  Look at New Orleans.  Coincidence?   

 And don'tcha just love how god always used the "sledge hammer" approach to dish out punishment to those whose displease him? And as for any of his flock who just so happened to also die in the distaster? Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

[Nick]

God needs to get with the times.  We just don't understand or get his messages when he brings storms and/or earthquakes and stuff.  Now a twitter account or facebook page would do a much better job of messaging.

[Disciple of Sagan]

God needs to get with the times.  We just don't understand or get his messages when he brings storms and/or earthquakes and stuff.  Now a twitter account or facebook page would do a much better job of messaging.

Just better hope he doesn't unfriend you...

[Anfauglir]

.....you talk about your family, you refer to someone sounding like "one of my ex-wives", and also refer to your current wife, which would make this at least your third marriage. Plus, your daughter appears to have spent considerable time as some sort of addict, and estranged from you (though I am very glad to hear she is clean now).

Does it seem odd to you that god would go to such lengths to protect your little girl from seeing a film containing content that you found questionable, but later did nothing to prevent her from becoming an alcoholic? I would guess you said more than a few prayers for help when she started down the road to substance abuse.

It's all becoming clearer.  Wayne, you've had a shitty life.  A couple failed marriages, a daughter who turned to drugs.....I'm not in the least surprised you want to cling on so hard to your idea of a "loving god".  Lose that, and what have you got left?  At least your god will always love you, and never let you down.      I'd find it hard to look objectively at things if I had that same emotional need for my beliefs to be true.

[median]

Wayne,
I am new here and have been reading your (1989) "story", as well as the lion-share of this thread (which has gotten severely off topic) and wanted to reply. So here are a few points to consider.

RESPONSE REQUESTED:

1) Early on, you readily admitted that your INTERPRETATION of your experience (i.e. - "story" in 1989) was being "filtered" by your preconceived belief about Christianity, the Bible, etc. Why did you accept the bible (uncritically) and then go about filtering everything through it? That is FAR from honest inquiry into the facts of life. It's not OK for other religions to do this, and it's not OK for you. Why not throw down the filter and look for the real truth? Don't you care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?

2) You seem to have a severe misconception of what atheism is. Atheism is ONLY the lack of belief in a god. That is all. Atheism is NOT a worldview or "system" of thought. It is a response to the question of whether one holds a belief in a deity or not. That's it. Nothing more. Anything else besides that, is NOT atheism. So calling atheism our "religion" is absurd b/c atheism holds no tenants, practices, or creeds. Please stop using the term that way.

A - no
Theism - belief in a god

3) Why do you find it OK for you to spin and rationalize the counter-arguments that have been raised against your assertion that government mandated prayer being taken out of schools (in 1962) somehow caused more crime and "moral degradation"? Did you know that countries which have less religion, have less crime? How much evidence would it take for you to change your view? Have you looked at the evidence that counters your favorite 'scholar'? There are in fact many studies, you know.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

4) If you admit that you are "99% atheist", then are you admitting that you don't KNOW whether there is a god, but just believe? But why believe? What good reason is there? It seems you have lowered your standards of evidence for one religion and not the others. 


The purpose of this thread was for you to "validate" your belief in your God. Can you please explain why you came to believe in this deity in the first place? What makes you think the bible (or the Book of Mormon) is authoritative on any subject?


Faith is not a pathway to truth.

[WayneHarropson]

The nation is going to HE double hockeysticks for gay marriage

Since you appear to be such a big fan of posting data to back up your arguments, how about conjuring up any pertinent information detailing actual, detrimental effects same-sex marriage has caused in the United States (or anywhere else in the world for that matter)... besides the agita that appears to only afflict the religious right.

Tell me, when same-sex unions started to become legal in some states, did you turn to your wife (if you are married) and sighed "Honey, I feel our marriage is a sham now that those gays can legally wed."?

Have you heard of steady sweethearts in your neck of the woods deciding that it was no longer worth getting married solely because the gays have "defiled the sanctity of marriage"?

Pray tell, just exactly how is gay marriage dooming our country in any quantifiable way? And please, I do so hope you pull out the fallacious "slippery slope" argument....

You are addressing someone that believes that God inspired those who wrote the bible and that the Attitude that the bible takes on homosexual behaviour is the same today as it was when the bible was written.  You live in another world  than a bible believer lives in.   If you'd like to know what else I've written on the subject you can look here: 

http://tinyurl.com/7dt2h42      Gay Marriage Is Covetousness.  (For that reason alone it is a sin.)

http://tinyurl.com/JRoyMoore  About a Mormon that has same sex attraction that isn't selfishly afflicting his wife his children and society with the shameful behavior of acting on it. He's a hero.

September eleventh was one of the first indications that God means to punish the United States for reneging on it's first principles.  More is to come as I eluded to with the two Sandys.

Take a look at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn on the NY Times Best Seller list.

As I said, the nation pays in calamities in this life, you and I, in the next.  If there is a God, and if there is a punishment for unrepented homosexual behavior in the next life as the bible says, then you should reconsider your position.

If you took the time to digest the twenty three year delay in my dark knight premonition, and then still want to give me some credit for the way my amazing mind works, I'll not accept such flattery.  I know it wasn't me, it wasn't anything resident in my abilities.  It was from outside of me and my purpose is only to report it.  America is going in the toilet for conceding to homosexual demands to codify that which breaks the Ten Commandments.

[Disciple of Sagan]

Wow. I mean, wow.

I honesty was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were one of the more... for lack of a better word... "grounded" Christians, but instead I find the next head wacko of the Westboro Baptist cult.

And funny, no statistics were given to back up your claim.

Since it is now blatantly obvious that having an intelligent, fact-based discussion with you is about as likely as you donning leather chaps and marching in the next gay pride parade, I am going to leave you with with this little quandry to ponder:

If these tragedies are meant to be punishment for the increasing and inevitable acceptance of same-sex relationships, then why is your omnipotent god killing his own followers to make his point?. Since I live 12 miles from Sandy Hook elementary school, was the shooting meant to send me (being one of them there "abominations") a message, or perhaps your god's getting a little senile in his old age and just doesn't have the motor skills to smite the wicked with any precision?

Thank you for the response, though. Hope you have fun in the little delusional world inside your head.

[WayneHarropson]

The Idi Amin thing is metaphorial.  Terrible terrible things happened under Idi Amin, a godless dictator.  God is currently allowing Obama to play out America's version of that disaster and he's not done yet.  If you actually got a look at my Idi Amin Premonition, concentrate on how God lead me to look at a specific scripture to back up the fact that he was bringing back things from the past.  The scripture read:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26

Now for you Christianity doubters, that is a new testament and therefore a Christian verse.  Just because Franklin doubted certain assertions about Christ doesn't mean the Deity He did believe in isn't the same one that pointed me to that Christian verse.  I'm totally persuaded that it is, and maybe you can now understand why.

Some Atheist here tries to muddy the water asserting that there are many Gods and therefore I couldn't know mine was the same as Franklin's.  I think he just likes to hear himself argue so much that he decided that inventing gods could throw me off my game.  He really needs to make up his mind about the god , no god thing first before he starts multiplying them.

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne,
I am new here and have been reading your (1989) "story", as well as the lion-share of this thread (which has gotten severely off topic) and wanted to reply. So here are a few points to consider.

RESPONSE REQUESTED:

1) Early on, you readily admitted that your INTERPRETATION of your experience (i.e. - "story" in 1989) was being "filtered" by your preconceived belief about Christianity, the Bible, etc. Why did you accept the bible (uncritically) and then go about filtering everything through it? That is FAR from honest inquiry into the facts of life. It's not OK for other religions to do this, and it's not OK for you. Why not throw down the filter and look for the real truth? Don't you care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?

When I introduced that my interpretation was filtered is an admission that I am self searching enough to entertain that I may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line.

and, By the way, Hi median.

I hope you aren't too hard on me for, from time to time using a less than definitive posture to invite debate.  The truth of the matter, as was illustrated in the Idi Amin episode, is that having been specifically directed to New Testament scripture that was meant specifically for me in the context of haveng been directed to twenty year old writings makes me more certain that Christianity is its origin than the more passive reference to filtering may have indicated.

If it isn't a Christian God giving me premonitions, it is most definately a God that wants me to think he is.  How's that for an answer?

2) You seem to have a severe misconception of what atheism is. Atheism is ONLY the lack of belief in a god. That is all. Atheism is NOT a worldview or "system" of thought. It is a response to the question of whether one holds a belief in a deity or not. That's it. Nothing more. Anything else besides that, is NOT atheism. So calling atheism our "religion" is absurd b/c atheism holds no tenants, practices, or creeds. Please stop using the term that way. A - no
Theism - belief in a god

Roger Wilco.  I toy with the atheist religion to needle you guys.  Be careful, I might actually substantiate it later, just be ready.

3) Why do you find it OK for you to spin and rationalize the counter-arguments that have been raised against your assertion that government mandated prayer being taken out of schools (in 1962) somehow caused more crime and "moral degradation"? Did you know that countries which have less religion, have less crime? How much evidence would it take for you to change your view? Have you looked at the evidence that counters your favorite 'scholar'? There are in fact many studies, you know.

I like and trust the motivations of David Barton.  I believe the U.S. is currently buckling under a welfare state that is the product of turning the state into the husband of unwed mothers and the father to their children and make a direct corelation of that fact to Atheists getting their way in removing moral foundations formerly vested in a belief in God.  Barton's charts from 87 mean something, though some here may wish they didn't exist.  I can't help them with that, and have no motivation to dismiss them to make them feel validated.

4) If you admit that you are "99% atheist", then are you admitting that you don't KNOW whether there is a god, but just believe? But why believe? What good reason is there? It seems you have lowered your standards of evidence for one religion and not the others.

 

You either don't get the joke, or I don't.  There is only one God.  On a scale of 100 total fake gods and the one God combined I am 99% Atheist.  I mused at one time as this for a screen name, but quickly dismissed it when faced with the possibility of more than a hundred.

The purpose of this thread was for you to "validate" your belief in your God. Can you please explain why you came to believe in this deity in the first place? What makes you think the bible (or the Book of Mormon) is authoritative on any subject? [/size]

I may in another thread or at another time.  I'm not sure I'm qualified to make the best use of space here attempting it.  If you haven't read my Why God Let Those Kids Die article, then it would explain that it is, for this discussion, the central piece of evidence that I'm using to answer the the question the thread asks.  After you have read it in it entirety, including the part about how God booby trapped my truck, you are likely to find a different list of questions to ask. 
Take a look here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/My%2023%20Year%20Old%20Premonition%20of%20the%20Colorado%20Dark%20Knight%20Tragedy.pdf

Faith is not a pathway to truth.

You are talking to someone who believes that Jesus Christ is who he said he was, Truth incarnate.  He said: I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by Me.  That for me is an authoritave statement from someone I trust.  I may not know a lot of things, but I know that.

I don't read psychology today, as you may have guessed.  The next thing I expect them to start arguing and promoting is that pedophelia is just a sexual orientation.  Sorry but I am openly bigoted on such matters.

[WayneHarropson]

Wow. I mean, wow.

I honesty was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were one of the more... for lack of a better word... "grounded" Christians, but instead I find the next head wacko of the Westboro Baptist cult.

And funny, no statistics were given to back up your claim.

Since it is now blatantly obvious that having an intelligent, fact-based discussion with you is about as likely as you donning leather chaps and marching in the next gay pride parade, I am going to leave you with with this little quandry to ponder:

If these tragedies are meant to be punishment for the increasing and inevitable acceptance of same-sex relationships, then why is your omnipotent god killing his own followers to make his point?. Since I live 12 miles from Sandy Hook elementary school, was the shooting meant to send me (being one of them there "abominations") a message, or perhaps your god's getting a little senile in his old age and just doesn't have the motor skills to smite the wicked with any precision?

Thank you for the response, though. Hope you have fun in the little delusional world inside your head.

My premonitions didn't come with statistical data.  There is a chance, if you are new that you haven't read about them.  There is a link to one of them below and If you want to Read the Idi Amin one here's a link here.  https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Obama_is_a_Type_of_Idi_Amin2.pdf

You are right about the Chaps thing.  Welcome.

[WayneHarropson]

God needs to get with the times.  We just don't understand or get his messages when he brings storms and/or earthquakes and stuff.  Now a twitter account or facebook page would do a much better job of messaging.

Just better hope he doesn't unfriend you...

Oops  too late!

[Disciple of Sagan]

Just better hope he doesn't unfriend you...

Oops  too late!

That was actually a pretty good comeback.

How 'bout yourself? Been poked by Jesus lately? Or is that more of a Catholic priest sorta thing....

[ParkingPlaces]

Wayne:

This green text is again me as an administrator. But now it is indeed a ticket.

It is time for you to stop preaching and start responding to the questions so many have asked of you. To glibly brush off all criticism of your thought processes and resources and to continue with the same repetitious meanderings is accomplishing nothing. You are displaying no respect for anything but your own mind, and dissing or, worse yet ignoring, absolutely everything that you didn't say.

You need to A) stop preaching about your POV and B) start participating in this thread as a discusser rather than an egotist. We don't actually have to listen to what you are saying. And not because we don't like it, but because your approach is untenable. Everyone else here has better things to do that let you be the center of attention.

You need to decide right now if you want to continue with this conversation or leave.

Note: Given that you probably haven't read the rules, you should be warned that you are not allowed to argue with an administrator. We have argued as participants in this thread, but as of right now I can no longer participate because I am being forced into this admin mode.

[12 Monkeys]

The nation is going to HE double hockeysticks for gay marriage

Since you appear to be such a big fan of posting data to back up your arguments, how about conjuring up any pertinent information detailing actual, detrimental effects same-sex marriage has caused in the United States (or anywhere else in the world for that matter)... besides the agita that appears to only afflict the religious right.

Tell me, when same-sex unions started to become legal in some states, did you turn to your wife (if you are married) and sighed "Honey, I feel our marriage is a sham now that those gays can legally wed."?

Have you heard of steady sweethearts in your neck of the woods deciding that it was no longer worth getting married solely because the gays have "defiled the sanctity of marriage"?

Pray tell, just exactly how is gay marriage dooming our country in any quantifiable way? And please, I do so hope you pull out the fallacious "slippery slope" argument....

You are addressing someone that believes that God inspired those who wrote the bible and that the Attitude that the bible takes on homosexual behaviour is the same today as it was when the bible was written.  You live in another world  than a bible believer lives in.   If you'd like to know what else I've written on the subject you can look here: 

http://tinyurl.com/7dt2h42      Gay Marriage Is Covetousness.  (For that reason alone it is a sin.)

http://tinyurl.com/JRoyMoore  About a Mormon that has same sex attraction that isn't selfishly afflicting his wife his children and society with the shameful behavior of acting on it. He's a hero.

September eleventh was one of the first indications that God means to punish the United States for reneging on it's first principles.  More is to come as I eluded to with the two Sandys.

Take a look at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn on the NY Times Best Seller list.

As I said, the nation pays in calamities in this life, you and I, in the next.  If there is a God, and if there is a punishment for unrepented homosexual behavior in the next life as the bible says, then you should reconsider your position.

If you took the time to digest the twenty three year delay in my dark knight premonition, and then still want to give me some credit for the way my amazing mind works, I'll not accept such flattery.  I know it wasn't me, it wasn't anything resident in my abilities.  It was from outside of me and my purpose is only to report it.  America is going in the toilet for conceding to homosexual demands to codify that which breaks the Ten Commandments.

Marry your rapist,kill unruly teens,women have no place speaking in public and the myriad of other things your "Christians" have abandoned.

[median]

When I introduced that my interpretation was filtered is an admission that I am self searching enough to entertain that I may have misinterpreted something somewhere along the line.

and, By the way, Hi median.

I hope you aren't too hard on me for, from time to time using a less than definitive posture to invite debate.  The truth of the matter, as was illustrated in the Idi Amin episode, is that having been specifically directed to New Testament scripture that was meant specifically for me in the context of haveng been directed to twenty year old writings makes me more certain that Christianity is its origin than the more passive reference to filtering may have indicated.

If it isn't a Christian God giving me premonitions, it is most definately a God that wants me to think he is.  How's that for an answer?

It wasn't. And in fact you managed to pretty much dodge each and every one of the questions I asked. How is a rare occurrence a "premonition" from some deity? How do you know that "a God" is giving you premonitions? There are plenty of unlikely stories like yours, from other religions such as Islam. Did you ever think to question your subjective personal interpretation, first, instead of buying it wholesale? Did you ever stop to think that it is b/c of your presumptions (regarding the Bible etc) that you have come to this conclusion, and that it is NOT a correct interpretation? 

You, "may have misinterpreted something along the line" seems quite right. Have you explored this option in detail? What other options of interpretation have you considered? How about the fact that gases and liquids are different?! A gas leak is NOT the same as a fuel leak, and those are both naturally occurring things. Do you call it a supernatural miracle (i.e. - 'premonition' from the heavens) when someone wins the CA LOTTERY, wins at the Indian Casino, or gets better after being in the hospital with a virus?

Roger Wilco.  I toy with the atheist religion to needle you guys.  Be careful, I might actually substantiate it later, just be ready.

Feel free to attempt whatever you'd like, but I've already provided the definition of what atheism is. Anything outside of that is NOT part of the definition (but deals with something else).

I like and trust the motivations of David Barton.  I believe the U.S. is currently buckling under a welfare state that is the product of turning the state into the husband of unwed mothers and the father to their children and make a direct corelation of that fact to Atheists getting their way in removing moral foundations formerly vested in a belief in God.  Barton's charts from 87 mean something, though some here may wish they didn't exist.  I can't help them with that, and have no motivation to dismiss them to make them feel validated.

But "like" and "trust" are not pathways to truth. However, they ARE often pathways to ERROR. Of course you like Barton, because he agrees with your presuppositions. But that is aside from the question I asked you. Why are you dismissing the counter-examples, and other information, that disproves your assertion?
 

You either don't get the joke, or I don't.  There is only one God.  On a scale of 100 total fake gods and the one God combined I am 99% Atheist.  I mused at one time as this for a screen name, but quickly dismissed it when faced with the possibility of more than a hundred.

This doesn't answer the questions I asked you.

I may in another thread or at another time.  I'm not sure I'm qualified to make the best use of space here attempting it.  If you haven't read my Why God Let Those Kids Die article, then it would explain that it is, for this discussion, the central piece of evidence that I'm using to answer the the question the thread asks.  After you have read it in it entirety, including the part about how God booby trapped my truck, you are likely to find a different list of questions to ask. 
Take a look here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/My%2023%20Year%20Old%20Premonition%20of%20the%20Colorado%20Dark%20Knight%20Tragedy.pdf

The thread asks you to provide sound evidence and sound argument for believing your deity is real (and not just imaginary). That is the OP. But you haven't done that. You've given a story of a coincidence (at best). In fact, you even called it a "remarkable coincidence" yourself! How can you tell the difference between a rare occurrence and something from your alleged deity? Please read Mark 16, because this story doesn't come anywhere near something Jesus supposedly claimed his disciples would all do. 1 Corinthians 2 also has a bit to say about this (as well as passages in Matthew).

So, the OP clearly calls upon you to demonstrate how you know your interpretations of said happenings are in fact accurate. At present, you haven't given any good distinction between yourself and those who are extremely superstitious, gullible, or credulous.

Faith is not a pathway to truth.

You are talking to someone who believes that Jesus Christ is who he said he was, Truth incarnate.  He said: I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by Me.  That for me is an authoritative statement from someone I trust.  I may not know a lot of things, but I know that.

I don't read psychology today, as you may have guessed.  The next thing I expect them to start arguing and promoting is that pedophelia is just a sexual orientation.  Sorry but I am openly bigoted on such matters.

You do realize that you've just thrown out your credibility entirely, right? You've admitted that you are bigotted (and willfully ignorant) when it comes to questions of fact - which is another way of stating that you don't care whether or not your beliefs are actually true. You just want to believe. And if that is the case, then why not just say it? Admit that you don't really care if you're beliefs are true and that you'd rather just be comfortable believing what you have for a long time. That would be true honesty.


I am well aware of what you believe (at least to some extent). But what we are asking is WHY. What good reason do you have to think that your deity exists? This 1989 story cannot be the main reason because you believed this stuff BEFORE that. So what is the reason? I said earlier that faith is not a pathway to truth. If your only reason is that you "just have faith" then OK. But then I have to ask why faith is valuable, because as far as I'm concerned it is not a virtue but a vice. You believe that Jesus said X,Y, and Z but why? And even if so, so what? Why take it as authority? Haven't you just accepted the bible uncritically from the beginning and are now filtering everything through your assumption?

Here are your own words:

My belief in God is primarily of my upbringing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and secondarily because I have a life just filled with incidents that cannot be explained in any other way than the supernatural.

So your belief is based on what someone else told you (what you assumed), and on a big Argument from Ignorance fallacy...and you don't find flaw there?


Nearly every religion tries to do what you are doing. It doesn't work for them and it doesn't work for you (i.e. - It is irrational).

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne:

This green text is again me as an administrator. But now it is indeed a ticket.

It is time for you to stop preaching and start responding to the questions so many have asked of you. To glibly brush off all criticism of your thought processes and resources and to continue with the same repetitious meanderings is accomplishing nothing. You are displaying no respect for anything but your own mind, and dissing or, worse yet ignoring, absolutely everything that you didn't say.

You need to A) stop preaching about your POV and B) start participating in this thread as a discusser rather than an egotist. We don't actually have to listen to what you are saying. And not because we don't like it, but because your approach is untenable. Everyone else here has better things to do that let you be the center of attention.

You need to decide right now if you want to continue with this conversation or leave.

Note: Given that you probably haven't read the rules, you should be warned that you are not allowed to argue with an administrator. We have argued as participants in this thread, but as of right now I can no longer participate because I am being forced into this admin mode.

So, PP. before I respond, Just how many adninistrators have there been on this thread that I should have not argued with.  Were you the only one?

[ParkingPlaces]

Wayne:

This green text is again me as an administrator. But now it is indeed a ticket.

It is time for you to stop preaching and start responding to the questions so many have asked of you. To glibly brush off all criticism of your thought processes and resources and to continue with the same repetitious meanderings is accomplishing nothing. You are displaying no respect for anything but your own mind, and dissing or, worse yet ignoring, absolutely everything that you didn't say.

You need to A) stop preaching about your POV and B) start participating in this thread as a discusser rather than an egotist. We don't actually have to listen to what you are saying. And not because we don't like it, but because your approach is untenable. Everyone else here has better things to do that let you be the center of attention.

You need to decide right now if you want to continue with this conversation or leave.

Note: Given that you probably haven't read the rules, you should be warned that you are not allowed to argue with an administrator. We have argued as participants in this thread, but as of right now I can no longer participate because I am being forced into this admin mode.

So, PP. before I respond, Just how many adninistrators have there been on this thread that I should have not argued with.  Were you the only one?

The issue isn't arguing. It is ignoring. Everyone. I have a responsibility as an administrator to keep discussions civil and useful. You were sitting there posting your little heart out, over and over, and continuing to ignore what others had said while preaching away like a little trooper. No other mods were online at the time and I had to take action myself.

Like jesus, your survival here is not guaranteed. Your rules do not apply. It is up to you to decide if you want to stay around or just go away.

I am ignoring the argumentative content of your response. This one time. You don't get a second chance.

[WayneHarropson]

If it isn't a Christian God giving me premonitions, it is most definitely a God that wants me to think he is.  How's that for an answer?

It wasn't. And in fact you managed to pretty much dodge each and every one of the questions I asked. How is a rare occurrence a "premonition" from some deity? How do you know that "a God" is giving you premonitions?

One example is that he has awakened me and pointed me to Bible scripture and had me focus on a particular scripture to emphasize that the 23 year old stories are things he is remindking me of.  That is how I know.

There are plenty of unlikely stories like yours, from other religions such as Islam. Did you ever think to question your subjective personal interpretation, first, instead of buying it wholesale? Did you ever stop to think that it is b/c of your presumptions (regarding the Bible etc) that you have come to this concussion, and that it is NOT a correct interpretation?

I might have worried about the correct interpretation of why my old stories match new events until God reinforced it with the confirming scripture.  And secondly, I do doubt my interpretation of obscure incidences like I had no freaking Idea waht a dream about my leg being amputated means.  After finding this site, I interpret it as a premonition of being here.  So yes I do question my interpretations all the time.

You, "[/size]may have misinterpreted something along the line" seems quite right. Have you explored this option in detail? What other options of interpretation have you considered?

Sometimes, it is rally easy to figure out,other times I have no idea... for a while.

I like and trust the motivations of David Barton. 

But "like" and "trust" are not pathways to truth. However, they ARE often pathways to ERROR. Of course you like Barton, because he agrees with your presuppositions. But that is aside from the question I asked you. Why are you dismissing the counter-examples, and other information, that disproves your assertion?

I'll answer that one with a question.  Do you believe that my assertion that single motherhood leads to dependency and the overwhelming of the welfare system?  I ask because others here celebrate single motherhood and Barton and I think that's a bad Idea.  Your stats, whatever they are, and my stats that some here wish to dismiss could all be misrepresentitive of something, but what we can get form this discussion is that Atheist philosophies as demonstrated here are what Barton and I would call anti family.  The anti family element tends to dependence, and a welfare state that is bankrupting the country. Barton and I are pointing to truth.  I like that and as you said: But "like" and "trust" are not pathways to truth. However, they ARE often pathways to ERROR.  It just may be that my liking Barton is not, in this specific case difinitively a pathway to error.  I'm sure you could agree with that.

The thread asks you to provide sound evidence and sound argument for believing your deity is real (and not just imaginary). That is the OP. But you haven't done that. You've given a story of a coincidence (at best).

I'd like to correct myself here.  I have used coincidence in cases where that term doesn't apply.

In fact, you even called it a "remarkable coincidence" yourself!

Consider that an error of mine.

How can you tell the difference between a rare occurrence and something from your alleged deity?

An occurrence could be rare and not be from God.  The best description of the difference is in the meanings that can be derived from remarkable incidences.  I will give many examples for you to peruse at the bottom of this post.

Please read Mark 16, because this story doesn't come anywhere near something Jesus supposedly claimed his disciples would all do. 1 Corinthians 2 also has a bit to say about this (as well as passages in Matthew).

I'll paste some of it in herre for you and comment;
"And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Wow, that was really inspired of you to pick that verse.  Paul nailed it right on the head didn't he.  There is no way I could have picked a better example of what is going on here.  See, I'm like Paul, unable to intelectually persuade you, only offer you proof of God's power in my stories.

How did you do that median?  That was amazing, the scripture you gave us just answered your question for me.  My God is so great!  "...that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

So, the OP clearly calls upon you to demonstrate how you know your interpretations of said happenings are in fact accurate. At present, you haven't given any good distinction between yourself and those who are extremely superstitious, gullible, or credulous.

My stories below will speak for themselves.  The body of them together should substantiate that my interpretations of them aren't supersitious. 
[/size]

Faith is not a pathway to truth.

You are talking to someone who believes that Jesus Christ is who he said he was, Truth incarnate.  He said: I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by Me.  That for me is an authoritative statement from someone I trust.  I may not know a lot of things, but I know that.

I don't read psychology today, as you may have guessed.  The next thing I expect them to start arguing and promoting is that pedophilia is just a sexual orientation.  Sorry but I am openly bigoted on such matters.

You do realize that you've just thrown out your credibility entirely, right?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the casual observer, hearing that I admit that I'm bigoted with regard to pedophelia, can see it as a wry way of pointing out the direction of psychology in justifying aberrent behaviors as normal is something that I am critical of.  It may satisfy a need of yours to dismiss me altogether because I have heard all I need to hear from studies like the one in the news from Britain that is pointing in that direction.  Psychology today has published articles that I disagree with.  Let's just say, I trust them as much as you trust Barton.  Can't we all just get along?

You've admitted that you are bigotted (and willfully ignorant) when it comes to questions of fact - which is another way of stating that you don't care whether or not your beliefs are actually true. You just want to believe. And if that is the case, then why not just say it? Admit that you don't really care if you're beliefs are true and that you'd rather just be comfortable believing what you have for a long time. That would be true honesty.

You went a long way to say that I don't like the truth, and you neednt do that.  I am fully committed to the truth.

I am well aware of what you believe (at least to some extent). What we are asking is WHY.

I believe because he has proved himself personally to me as my stories below attest.

This 1989 story cannot be the main reason because you believed this stuff BEFORE that.

I have stories that predate that, I use that one because this site asks Why God Doesn't Heal Amutees, My story explains Why God Let Those Kids Die.  There is a connection between my story and this site that My God specifically directed me here to expound on and he did it and confirmed it to me by giving me a dream beforehand about having my leg amputated.  My God guides me and I believe in him for that.  He guides me and therefore He is real.

So what is the reason? I said earlier that faith is not a pathway to truth.

I think taht my experiences confirm faith and therefore I'm not entirely guided by faith, but by experience.  It may not be the case for others as it is with me,  but faith is a key element. 

I don't agree that faith is not a pathway to truth, that only works for Aheism. (Or doesnt work, whatever.)  You use it as a maxim, I say it is false.

If your only reason is that you "just have faith" then OK. But then I have to ask why faith is valuable, because as far as I'm concerned it is not a virtue but a vice. You believe that Jesus said X,Y, and Z but why? Haven't you just accepted the bible uncritically from the beginning and are now filtering everything through your assumption? And you don't find flaw there?

I might have a tendency to take the bible seriously more thatn others simply by the fact that I have been directed specifically by it.  I don't undserstand it all but my experience has persuaded me that God has messages for me in it if I am willing to listen when his spirit speaks, as it did with the confirmation taht he was reminding me of things that he had previously taught me.  See John 14:26

I think I understand what you mean by faith is not a pathway to truth, because for you it is true, it just isn't for me.  But it just might be that for someone like me that has had the kind of direct encounter with incidences that are often misnamed coincidences, the question that this thread asks might not just be an intellectual excersize.  I have tried to translate it intellectually though. 

I really don't think it is lost on everyone here what my part in validating my belief in god has to do with remarkable incidents whose unlikelyhood eliminates them from the cooincidence category.  Now, I have been accused of being an egoist and wanting to be the center of attention, and if I was making these remarkable non coincidental things up or imagining them then I might be guilty as charged. 

As I see it, I was given these incidences by God to share and it has nothing to do with my ego.

Since my case for the existence of god centers around my remarkable supernatural incidences, let me rattle off a list of them that I know are more than  coincidence.  Here we go:

I catch a plane with a 007 movie star.  My phone number ends in 0070. The crew makes a big big deal about my cell phone actually creating a drama before me about the whole thing, and doesn't themselves know that my phone ends in 0070.  I find out later the movie star has become a dedicated Christian and tells of his (supernatural) conversion that saves him a life of alcoholism.  This was not a coincidence it was an encounter staged by god.  http://tinyurl.com/007Revisited

In the 70's I get a sharp repremand while driving a car in the dark at high speed that causes me to virtually slam on the brakes.  A group of cows and I would have been slaughtered if I hadn't.

http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclair    Montclair (Protection) link to Ford Social

I was awoken in the 70s by a presence in the middle of the night that lead me to a typewriter.  In the dark I could sense where all the keys were and experienced the intuitive typing that I couldn't achieve in a college class.  Now (in retrospect) I know it was an early visitation telling me that I would be a writer, but the writing subject matter would be prophetic information hidden in otherwise obscure but interesting stories I'd write.  So I was being told for instance that a spirit would guide me to write things in the 1990s that wouldn't reveal their complete meanings until for example 2011.

Here's a story how, I like an early American preacher, reverse course from a spiritual prompt to discover something remarkable.  http://tinyurl.com/PrecinctsOfRepublic 

Here's one about Alfred Hitchcock's cinematographer whose son in law just awarded me a certificate of completion for passing a course on the Constitution.  http://tinyurl.com/movieodyssey

Here's one on how the Spirit of God helped me in a tough decision to euthanize my dog Toby.  http://tinyurl.com/85xd4wx

In this one I hear my computer reboot unaccountably and when I go to the computer it has opened in Word with a fresh page, and I for the first time make a connection between two unrealted incidences.  Someone was telling me, OK, now it's time to write.   http://tinyurl.com/JudgeGuilford

Here a kidney stone gives me something funny to write about. http://tinyurl.com/WaynesVirtualBaby

Here I'm wakened in the middle of the night and my hand is placed before my eyes for me to see a birthmark that never meant anything before.  I knew exactly what it was.  It was a signature of the Holy Spirit.  http://tinyurl.com/7vgquq2

I'm feeling depressed one day about something out of my control and God sends me a friend to change my attitude     http://tinyurl.com/maxsquirrel

An auto repair venture shows God's specific guidance http://tinyurl.com/JeepDeathWobble  Warning, this one is about gay marriage.  God doesn't like it.

CrazyEyes (being treated like Michele Bachmann) in New York on a TV show. http://tinyurl.com/7zn63zv

The gas Company and Colombo (Guidance as contractor)
http://tinyurl.com/WayneAsColumbo   

God tells me my step mother broke her ankle, I deliver her a car.  http://tinyurl.com/7d3he5f    More about the 77 Buick Regal.

http://tinyurl.com/7s5smvh  Greenlight (Protection)  I stop unaccountably at a green light.

http://tinyurl.com/williamshakes  What I have in common with William Shakespeare (it's not the hair)

The mystery of TwelveThirteen http://tinyurl.com/HWY101101


http://tinyurl.com/CattleOnThousandHills  I got a lot of guff earlier here from Jag for  stealing gas.

Now, if the administrator decides that this post is inappropriate, you will not have access to my substantial body of evidence that God guides, provides, teaches, He knows stuff we don't know, and for some reason has my number.

 I do appreciate all of you having put up with me as long as you have.  I did my best in answering when I could, and obviously I don't have all the answers that can satisfy your intellectual curiosities.  I think we can conclude that the God I am validating can at will transcend the rational.  I want to remind you  that I did in fact have a dream that my leg was amputated, and then cauterized by fire just a day or two before meeting you all.  I want to thank you all for being that blow torch, it hurt but only for a while, and I'll manage to live without the use of the rest of it and shall not require of god to make it reappear.  The amputated leg will have been one of my most entertaining premonitions because of you.

If I'm allowed back I may share with you my now-incomplete angels wing story.  Like the amputated leg, it is currently in the stage where I'm not exactly sure what it means.  Until I found this site I didn't know what amputated leg meant, now I know.

So, In conclusion, my God is real, he gives me joy as you can see, his judgements scare the bejesus out of me, and He is the same God that the bible talks about because he uses bible scripture to tell me things.

He is also a God that blinds unbelievers to his existence.  I quoted that Scripture earlier.

I hope I came close in this attempt to answer questions directly.  I'm going to bed now.  Thanks again.


I'm sure that my refocusing on the incidences as my validation of the existence of the Judeo Christian, and fail  If it is true, that God himself set up these incidences for me to write about, and I only cast it

Note from moderator: I hesitated to approve this post but since part of it was in response to another member, I went ahead and did it. I could have (and still could) edited out the many new links you provided. I'll be more stringent next time you spend most of the post giving us more links. One of the intentions of moderating you is to get you to respond to the many posts people have made responding to previous links. Don't get too far ahead of yourself.

I repeat. Our expectation is that you will enter into a conversation with various members instead of talking at us. Obviously you are one person and can't respond to everyone, but you can make an effort. None of this precludes your trying to get your message across, as long as you do it in the form of a response rather than from atop a soapbox.

[WayneHarropson]

I am ignoring the argumentative content of your response. This one time. You don't get a second chance.[/color][/size]

If it sounded argumentative, it certainly wasn't my intent.  I thought I  saw the admin on others as well and was just curious. And you were right, I didn't know that I couldn't argue with you.

medias questons were answered to the best of my ability.  I do hop you give me another chance.
Thanks in any case.

Moderator note: This post is approved. Do keep in mind that there are things you can do to stick around. And there are things that you can do to get yourself banned. You've been told our expectations, you are capable of meeting them. Please do. If you do as we have asked, and converse with us, the approval process presently required can be lifted pretty quickly. It is up to you.

[Astreja]

Some Atheist here tries to muddy the water asserting that there are many Gods and therefore I couldn't know mine was the same as Franklin's.  I think he just likes to hear himself argue so much that he decided that inventing gods could throw me off my game.  He really needs to make up his mind about the god , no god thing first before he starts multiplying them.

Wayne, I didn't assert that there are "many gods."  I do think that many gods are just as likely (or unlikely) as one super-powered god; therefore, you and Benjamin Franklin could very easily be speaking of completely different deities.  What I believe really has nothing to do with this; this is a question of whether you and Mr. Franklin believe in the same god.  Unfortunately, Mr. Franklin is long dead and cannot definitively answer this question.

I don't have to "invent" gods, either -- If one reads the OT with even a cursory knowledge of Canaanite mythology, it quickly becomes obvious that at one time the Israelites were polytheists with a pantheon headed up by the god El.

Oh, and I'm a "she," not a "he."

[JeffPT]

You are talking to someone who believes that Jesus Christ is who he said he was, Truth incarnate.  He said: I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by Me.  That for me is an authoritave statement from someone I trust.  I may not know a lot of things, but I know that.

A few questions for you then... 

Who wrote it?  Did you know them?  Did Jesus himself write it?  How do you know Jesus even said it?  Were you there?  How do you know you can trust the author?  Is it not simply more likely that he's lying, or that he really believes it but is just wrong about it?  Could the people who told you to trust the bible have been wrong about it?  Why do you not trust Mohammed?  Or L. Ron Hubbard?  They said stuff too, and the only difference is that you weren't raised to believe that everything they said was right.  That's the only difference and you know it. 

But here's the problem Wayne.  You believe things too easily, and then you only look at and focus on things that reinforce your deluded beliefs.  You don't really stop to consider the alternate position, and that's why you dodge around so much of what we tell you here.  You're spewing and spewing stupid stuff that doesn't mean anything to thinking people, but I'm sure in your personal life, you've been around people who fall for this stuff as easily as you do, and that's really, really sad. 

I'll give you an example of what I mean to prove my point.  You say you trust what Jesus said, but step back out of your God belief for a moment and consider it from a standpoint of 'I don't know if God is real'.  Like any statement in any book, what Jesus said could either be true or false.  This is a fact that you can't escape from and that you can not ignore.  Now... the bible authors (whoever they may be) wrote that Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the light.  Fine.  Now, ask yourself... if you found 10 holy books on a table, all of them with people making claims that were supernatural in origin (including one which has Jesus saying that he was the way, the truth and the light), how do you distinguish between which one is trustworthy and which one is not?  What it would boil down to is the individual statements in each book and how they stack up against reality, correct? 

Given this, is it more likely that Jesus is ACTUALLY the way, the truth and the light, or that he just said he was, and really he wasn't?  Or that they made it up, or some other possibility that we haven't looked at?  The point is that the least likely thing is that Jesus really was what he said he was.  If you disagree, then ask yourself what you would say to a man who came up to you on the street and said it to you today.  Would you simply buy it?  You're gullible, but I doubt you'd buy it.  Then imagine you lived 100 years ago and someone said it.  Would you believe it then?  1000 years?  2000?  Whats the difference?  Nothing.  It would be just as dumb back then as it is now.  The notion that he is who he says is the least likely for the same reasons that it is least likely for the supernatural claims of the 9 other books to be true.  Do you disagree with that?  Does that not make you see how you've been brainwashed to believe that ONE book out of the literally thousands of books you could read with supernatural events in them, holds truth while the others do not?   

In a nutshell, you are completely abandoning the normal way you determine whether a book can be trusted in favor of simply going along with what other people (whom you trust) have told you throughout your life.  Maybe it's time you stop thinking like a little boy and start thinking like a man.  Use your reason for once.  Stop being an idiot.  You've been lied to.  The whole thing is a myth. 

You're premonition / low odds take on things is theologically sound for you given your assumptions about the world, Wayne.  Unfortunately for you, if this world had no god in it, things that you hook together can be easily explained as just very minor (and sometimes even ridiculously lame) coincidences.  Nothing more.  They aren't even like... "WOW what a coincidence" things.  They're really weak.  You're brain just can't see them that way, but truthfully, you're probably a statistics and probability class away from laughing at your own stupidity.   

[Anfauglir]

I like and trust the motivations of David Barton. .....Barton's charts from 87 mean something, though some here may wish they didn't exist.

As has been explained to you over and over again, Wayne, Barton's charts mean nothing - because all the data in his charts that goes up, comes right back down again in the years that follow.

What you have done, effectively, is taken Barton's small snapshot of time, and said to yourself "that applied then, so it MUST be the same now".  But it isn't.  You've been shown, repeatedly, that the data you claim supports your point no longer applies.

If we were arguing in 1990, you might have had a point.  You could point to Barton's charts and say "see? It ALL goes up from 1963!".  And we would be harder pressed to answer.

But its 2012.  And we are pointing at the longer-term charts, that show data from a 40-year period, and saying "it went up, then it went down".  But you are still saying that your 1989 data proves the point you are making in 2012.

I'm not sure how many other ways this point can be made to you Wayne.  I'll repeat the specific questions I had from the other day.  Specific questions are in bold.

1)   Barton shows crime went up from 1963 to 1989 – the end of his data.
2)   All later studies then show crime going DOWN from 1989 to today – to 1963 levels.

Why precisely are you unwilling to accept ANY of the later studies – none of which, incidentally contradict Barton’s work.  What they DO do is contradict the conclusions that you have drawn from a far, far, earlier study – which is therefore, for the purposes of your argument, incomplete.

Is that the only reason you automatically reject ALL the later data Wayne?  Because it doesn’t fit the conclusions that you have drawn?  Because you can’t – despite repeated arguments – explain the mass of data within the scenario you have constructed, and so therefore it MUST be wrong?
I’ll repeat these again in closing, in the hopes that you will be able to live up to your own ideals.

The real test of honesty is when someone can admit that a commonly misconstrued rumor doesn't support their viewpoint as well as their less honest allies say it does.

Because, frankly Wayne:

I find you in the most part unable to concede any point, or allow for any doubt that you might be faced with accurate information that weakens your case. 

Pot – meet kettle, as they say.