Please validate your belief in your God

[WayneHarropson]

You are insisting scientific precision no matter how I explain that I use prayer in school as emblematic of the whole progression of animus for Christianity that is enveloped by that and every other anti Christ movement that followed it.  MMOH's was bible reading, not prayer.  Later it was the Ten Commandments and don't tell me you don't know which ten.  You insult only yourself by asking. 

We are insisting on verifiable evidence because that is what's needed for your assertions to become more than personal opinion. That's the gold standard on this forum. It doesn't have to be precise, but it does have to be specific. That is, if you could show a direct link, preferably with multiple sources of evidence, between the cessation of state-endorsed religion in US public schools, and a rise in crime rates.

ParkingPlaces:

Bonus question. Crime rates in most categories have fallen dramatically in the last 10-15 years. How would that be possible if the prayer issue was the catalyst for the problem in the first place.

OK, so the scale starts out at a two out of ten prior to 1962.  Animosity for Christian values begins and the rate progresses in to the eightys at a logarithmic rate.  It stabilises at say seven to eight out of ten, and than tapers off and you want to attribute all the wonders of atheism to it miraculously staying under eight?  You won your fight, the harm is not only well entrenched but persists.  And all of this because of a lie, the lie of separation of church and state.  Remember OJ Simpson's Glove analogy.  You got away with murder whether you can be honest with yourself about it or not.  Don't take it personally, I'm talking to all of you.

Ok, what you need to understand Wayne, is that you just threw out some more assertions and did not back them up. Leaving aside your entirely arbitrary animosity scale, and that you don't even define what you mean by "animosity", where is the evidence of all this?

You do not link to sources. You do not refer us to any (within the last few years would be ideal) published books or articles. Your opinions are clearly heartfelt, but without any facts that we can look at and evaluate for ourselves, they remain just that.

I made up the numbers to show that the damage is more than done and any tapering off now after fifty years of the effects of driving Christionity out.  If you thought my numbers were anything but hypothetical for the sake of argument then you completely misunderstood.

What did you think of the missionary story?  How about the pastor and the phone booth.  Both of those stories are on the par with my 70s montclaire car almost hits the cows stories.

I've gort more.  I'l take any lie detector test.  I'm an unscientific reporter of the supernatural, and I think you need to understand that by the nature of it, you are not going to get the proof that your Atheist religion requires.  What about my engine shutting down just as the odometer goes to 000,000.7 after my plane flight with the Christian Richard Kyle, from 007, and the motorola phone I was assigned that the pilot fussed about having the number 0070.  Certainly this stuff is worth reporting.

[DumpsterFire]

I misundertand.  Are you saying I lied about the story, or Ken Gaub lied about the story?
It's his story, I  was recounting my understandin of it.  My rendition can be completely ignored if you have read the original.
I'm glad you read it though.

Gaub's original story (as read @ the link you provided) is false. He claims there was an operator on the line when he picked up the phone, but later says the distressed woman dialed the number herself. There would not have been an operator on the line if the woman dialed the number herself.

[keeta]

your 007 stories don't hold water next to me seeing 911 every single day, at least once, but up to 4 times in one day, for the past 12 years, without fail. and it's not always on the clock it's seen, i've seen license plates, date on my milk jug, telephone numbers, my frickin childhood go-cart my dad just gave me a few years back, was #911...every. day. i have a brain injury. i couldn't plan to look at the clock at that same time every day even if i set an alarm for it..i thought it meant my grandfather was going to die on that day, a few years back, as he was ill several months before, as it turned out he died 4 min past midnight sept 12..i was a little off i guess. 12 years is a long time to see the same number everyday. i wish i knew what it meant. i figure i've lost enough people in my life, someone's just f*ckin with me. bastards.

[wright]

Ok, what you need to understand Wayne, is that you just threw out some more assertions and did not back them up. Leaving aside your entirely arbitrary animosity scale, and that you don't even define what you mean by "animosity", where is the evidence of all this?

You do not link to sources. You do not refer us to any (within the last few years would be ideal) published books or articles. Your opinions are clearly heartfelt, but without any facts that we can look at and evaluate for ourselves, they remain just that.

I made up the numbers to show that the damage is more than done and any tapering off now after fifty years of the effects of driving Christionity out.  If you thought my numbers were anything but hypothetical for the sake of argument then you completely misunderstood.

What did you think of the missionary story?  How about the pastor and the phone booth.  Both of those stories are on the par with my 70s montclaire car almost hits the cows stories.

No offense, but I'm not interested in your anecdotes.

I've gort more.  I'l take any lie detector test.  I'm an unscientific reporter of the supernatural, and I think you need to understand that by the nature of it, you are not going to get the proof that your Atheist religion requires.  What about my engine shutting down just as the odometer goes to 000,000.7 after my plane flight with the Christian Richard Kyle, from 007, and the motorola phone I was assigned that the pilot fussed about having the number 0070.  Certainly this stuff is worth reporting.

Okay, sorry I was slow to understand. You don't have any empirical, objective evidence to back up your claims of atheism being such a terrible influence on morality and culture. They can therefore be dismissed until such evidence is presented.

[Anfauglir]

That's fine - just give us the ISBN of the textbook they are published in, or the issue number of the particular journal, if they aren't freely available on the web.  Easily done, you know.

Theyre on a video tape and I have looked on the web for their counterparts.  If I find them I will.  Have you ever tried to digitize a video tape?

No problem at all.  Give us the title of the videotape, and I'm sure we will be able to source a copy.  Better yet, watch the tape again and tell us the source of the data used in the graph - any honest and reliable source will include that information somewhere.

Seriously, Wayne, I just can't understand why you're having so much trouble producing this information.  From what you are saying, it appears that the information in this graph has had a profound effect on you, so I'm struggling to see why you're having so much trouble letting us know where it come from.   

And it would SO help your case!  Like I said before:  the moment you show me a graph that proves causation between the two factors, then yes - I will change my view.

The real test of honesty is when someone can admit that a commonly misconstrued rumor doesn't support their viewpoint as well as their less honest allies say it does.

I wonder, Wayne.  Will you ever be prepared to admit that there IS no evidence for your "it all went to hell because of atheists in 1962"? 

Looking forward to the grapg.  Or the title & publisher of the video.  Or the source of the data.  Or a link.  Or, indeed, ANYTHING other than your bare assertion that you once saw a graph that proves atheists caused all the ills of the world because of a single event some 50 years ago.

[Anfauglir]

.....A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.
Now the rational mind would be able to take this account and be forced to attribute it to a prank, because there is no other possible explanation. 

Actually, there is a far more rational explanation.  It didn't happen. 

But for someone like me it is entirely believable because it matches the uncanny experiences of my life. 

Of course it does Wayne.  Its called "confirmation bias", and its an extremely well-documented phenomena.

I don't know this guy, never saw him on TV, all I know about is this story I read, but  like the stories I read in the  His Mysterious Ways series, I became attuned to how God works.

Well, quite.  Because you want the story to be true, you automatically accept it IS true.  Just as if the same story was told by a Hindu Priest, you would NOT simply accept that Brahma was behind the tale.

Seriously, Wayne - don't bother with these stories.  I know you love 'em, but they are utterly useless to us, because we can find exactly the same tales from every faith there is - so NONE are any use as "evidence" of your god.

So if there is a step, I'd say the first is curiosity.  If you don't want to know, then forget it.

That's the thing, Wayne.  We ARE curious.  We WANT to find out the truth.  But sadly, all we ever get are eighth-hand retellings, or unverifiable assertions, that don't prove anything.

So......where's this graph then?

[Willie]

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

As pianodwarf and others have said, you need to show not just correlation but causation. The former is easy, the latter much less so. ...

Not only has he failed to establish causation, but he hasn't established any meaningful correlation either. Consider these two charts:



Wayne keeps harping on the rising crime after 1962. In the homicide chart above, we see that there's a small trough in the stats right around that time, then a steep rise peaking at around 1973. Unfortunately, the religiosity chart only goes back to 1973, so I can't tell whether irreligiosity correlates with the crime rate in that 1962-1973 period. But, just to be generous, let's assume for the moment that it does. The rather obvious problem is that remainder of the data shows no such correlation. In fact, there's somewhat of an inverse correlation, especially in the period from approx. 1993-2010. During that period, the homicide rate dropped by about half while the number of religiously unaffiliated roughly doubled.

In case you're wondering whether other kinds of violent crime have trended simiarly to the homicide chart above, they have. I don't have a chart to show you, but the trend is easy to see in this table: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

Rape, robbery, aggravated assult, and simple assault, all follow a similar pattern of being roughly flat from 73 to 93, then big decline thereafter, coinciding rather nicely with the decline in religiosity.

Wayne has tried to dismiss the recent decline in crime rates as a mere "tapering off". But if you look at the far right side of the homicide chart, you might notice that 2010 looks like it's about level with Wayne's magical year of 1962. In fact, the text accompanying that chart (document cited below) comments on this. It says "In the last decade (since 2000) the homicide rate declined to levels last seen in the mid-1960s."  The homicide rate in 1962 was 4.6 per 100,000. In 2010 it was 4.8 per 100,000. Very nearly equal.

Correlation does not prove causation, but lack of correlation IS evidence against causation.

One correlation that Wayne has actually shown is that some specific church-state separation court rulings occurred at roughly the same time as a surge in violent crime. But there were a great many important events that happened around that time. And there have also been favorable church-state separation rulings during the period of declining crime in the 90's and 2000's. All Wayne has done is picked out the events he wants to blame while ignoring the rest, proving nothing, other than the extent to which his reasoning is crippled by his prejudice.

Sources:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx

[bertatberts]

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ. 

 If we listed 100 gods, the only one you would select as real would be Yahweh/Jesus...you would show yourself 99% atheist.

Is it too late to change my screen name.  I want to change it to:  99% atheist.

Then maybe Ill get some respect around here!

Great post.

You would need to change it to 99.6637% atheist, as there are roughly 3700 gods not including the Hindu gods. But you still wouldn't get any respect as you are delusional. And as such cannot be taken seriously. (Note you haven't realized that yet have you.

[Add Homonym]

Wayne, both Christians and atheists have been trying to take the Constitution territory.

The Treaty of Tripoli
Signed by John Adams

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
     "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

          -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, US Consul)

Apparently John (and senate) were just lying, to fool Muslims.

Here's another quote: 

Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Here is his son, who didn't get the memo:

the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity,

The way I see it, the Deists and the Freemasons slipped the constitution through, under the noses of True Christians, and the True Christians have been hating it, and trying to claim it back again, ever since.

I have no doubt that USA has been infested with hateful Christians all through that period, and would have liked to have founded the nation on the Christian principles of hate and intolerance, but they missed out. They weren't at the meeting, or something.

[WayneHarropson]

your 007 stories don't hold water next to me seeing 911 every single day, at least once, but up to 4 times in one day, for the past 12 years, without fail. and it's not always on the clock it's seen, i've seen license plates, date on my milk jug, telephone numbers, my frickin childhood go-cart my dad just gave me a few years back, was #911...every. day. i have a brain injury. i couldn't plan to look at the clock at that same time every day even if i set an alarm for it..i thought it meant my grandfather was going to die on that day, a few years back, as he was ill several months before, as it turned out he died 4 min past midnight sept 12..i was a little off i guess. 12 years is a long time to see the same number everyday. i wish i knew what it meant. i figure i've lost enough people in my life, someone's just f*ckin with me. bastards.

There is something about 000,000.7 that leaves an indelible mark, particularly after the Richard Kyle, (loving, dedicated christian) episode.

[pianodwarf]

I'l take any lie detector test.

Polygraphs are pseudoscience; they are not even remotely reliable.  And even if they were reliable, your passing such a test would prove only that you believed what you were saying was true, not that it actually was true.

Atheist religion

Please note: atheism is not a religion.  Atheism is a lack of belief in deities, nothing more, nothing less.  Although it is true that atheists tend to have certain things in common (e.g., a strong pro-science bent, as you indicate), you cannot assume that that will be true for all atheists.  There are atheists who believe in ghosts, reincarnation, or psychic powers, for example, and such things are decidedly not scientific.

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne, both Christians and atheists have been trying to take the Constitution territory.

I have no doubt that USA has been infested with hateful Christians all through that period, and would have liked to have founded the nation on the Christian principles of hate and intolerance, but they missed out. They weren't at the meeting, or something.

John Adams (SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES)
said all of the following:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

"The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation."

"Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell."

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity."

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!"

"I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world. "

"Sounds to me as though Adams was a deep thinker and didn't always take christian claims without rational examination.  He might be a good resource of inspiration as you discover that your bigoted remarks about Christians in general are not well supported by the whole works of Adams."

It sounds to me that Adams did all the heavy lifting and came to the right conclusion after all.

I warned that proof there is no god would fail in a battle of founders quotes, but I like the back and forth.  Keep it up.

You might also enjoy this article about how desperate professors are to tamp down the reality of Jesus Christs influence in our founding.  They resort to the tactics of Saul Alinlky, and Hitler knowing that they only need to appeal to the most ignorant to get their policies to work..

http://www.rickgreen.com/attacks-on-david-barton-same-as-tactics-of-alinsky-hitler/

Don't be hoodwinked.

[WayneHarropson]

I'l take any lie detector test.

Polygraphs are pseudoscience; they are not even remotely reliable.  And even if they were reliable, your passing such a test would prove only that you believed what you were saying was true, not that it actually was true.

Atheist religion

Please note: atheism is not a religion.  Atheism is a lack of belief in deities, nothing more, nothing less.  Although it is true that atheists tend to have certain things in common (e.g., a strong pro-science bent, as you indicate), you cannot assume that that will be true for all atheists.  There are atheists who believe in ghosts, reincarnation, or psychic powers, for example, and such things are decidedly not scientific.

Well stated all.
I think the atheists that believe in ghosts is a little weird. You probably do too.  Maybe agnostic would fit  better for ones that allow for the supernatual.

[WayneHarropson]

.....A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.
Now the rational mind would be able to take this account and be forced to attribute it to a prank, because there is no other possible explanation. 

Actually, there is a far more rational explanation.  It didn't happen.

I'm glad you are so certain of things.

Here's the guys phone number if you want to tell him so.   Better yet, maybe you could PM me for it. I've never talked to him but he does publish his phone number.

[pianodwarf]

I think the atheists that believe in ghosts is a little weird. You probably do too.

Very.  At least in some cases.

I went thru a "woo" period for about three years or so in the mid to late 1980s, where I buried myself in the New Age movement -- reincarnation, the whole schmeer -- but would have still called myself an atheist.  It's a little embarrassing to admit it now, but I do understand why I did it[1], and I'm not sure I ever really believed any of it anyway.  But in any event, yes, it's weird.

The whole "atheist versus agnostic" thing is a completely different can of worms.

1.	I had just suffered an extremely traumatic life event and was trying to make sense out of it.  It's the same kind of motivation that makes Christians say things like "God's ways are not for us to understand."

[screwtape]

You really need to consider the fact that your sources are completely wrong about everything.  Because so far... they are.  You should stop referring to Barton.  He is a liar. And it is making you look like a clown.

John Adams ...said all of the following:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

nope.
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/adams-and-the-general-principles-of-christianity/

"The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation."

nope
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Adams#Misattributed
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/no-mr-beck-john-adams-did_b_608570.html

"Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell."

a partial quote taken out of context to make it sound like he meant something he did not.
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/john_adams_quote_6226

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity."

nope
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/quotation-index/

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!"

I have not found any reliable sources for this. It only seems to appear on right wing websites.

"I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world. "

I have not found any reliable sources for this. It only seems to appear on right wing websites.

[WayneHarropson]

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

I do appreciate your analysis. 

I did find a way to do it from a book.  let me see if I can make this work.  Source David Barton's Myth or Separation 1992

I just added a pdf to the attachments and options, looked at the preview and didn't see anything.
It will  only have statistics to 87 but lets see if it comes up

File size too big, so I'll put a link to my drop box here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/DivineLawRejectedStatistics.PDF
If you find a way to put it in the body, please do so.


Note, for those of you that never got the premoniton story heres another means of reading it.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Wayne%27s%20Dark%20Knight%20Tragedy%20Premonition.pdf

[WayneHarropson]

You really need to consider the fact that your sources are completely wrong about everything.  Because so far... they are.  You should stop referring to Barton.  He is a liar. And it is making you look like a clown.

Why don't you comment on the Saul Alynsky article while you're at it.

You say he's a liar, I say he's not.
You ar an atheist, so was alynsky
I'm a Christian, so was John Adams
Where do we go from here?

[ParkingPlaces]

"The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation."

I was going to stay out of this, but you are depending on modified and incomplete quotes from an unreputable source. Here is the actual quote, verbatim, in context, including the entire paragraph:

But my friend there is something very serious in this business. The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this Earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a Sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost, who is transmitted from age to age by laying the hands of the Bishop on the heads of candidates for the Ministry. In the same manner as the Holy Ghost is transmitted from monarch to monarch by the holy oil in the vial at Rheims which was brought down from Heaven by a dove and by that other phial [vial] which I have seen in the Tower of London. There is no authority civil or religious: There can be no legitimate government but that which is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation. Although this is all artifice and cunning in the sacred original in the heart, yet they all believe it so sincerely that they would lay down their lives under the ax or the fiery fagot [bundle of wood used for burning individuals at the stake] for it. Alas, the poor weak ignorant dupe human nature. There is so much king craft, priest craft, gentlemen’s craft, people’s craft, doctors craft, lawyers craft, merchants craft, tradesmen’s craft, laborers craft and Devil’s craft in the world that it seems a desperate [hopeless] and impractical project to undeceive it.

(My red (which shows the mined parts) and my bold)

In other words, he is saying it is a bunch of crap but that so many are deceived by it that is hopeless to impractical to try the get out the truth. Your source quote mined the sarcastic part, rewrote and/or left out parts of it, then completely removed the authors main point.

This is typical of your scholarship, typical of your bias, typical of your desire to warp reality to fit the one you believe is real. You have no capacity to look critically at that which you desperately want to be true. On the bright side, you are continuously making a fool of yourself on this site and helping all of us who already dismiss the words of theists to reinforce our own views. You, who hold that the ten commandments, including the one about lying, in such high regard simultaneously sanction lying so long as it is in your best interest. You thought that that when John Adams signed the treaty of Tripoli, he was lying for diplomatic reasons, and that was apparently just fine with you. You don't want me to lie, and you imply that the only way that can be possible is for me to become a christian, then you sanction the lies of christians. We call that hypocrisy. You call it morally acceptable, because your only standard is to deceive as necessary in order for the world you want to come true.

Should you succeed, the end results will suck because right and wrong will be of no interest to any of the inhabitants.

Adam's writing was before the Internet. It is no longer hopeless or impractical to rid the world of two-faced believers. All we have to do is get past you and your ilk. And if truth can prevail, we will.

[ParkingPlaces]

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

I do appreciate your analysis. 

I did find a way to do it from a book.  let me see if I can make this work.  Source David Barton's Myth or Separation 1992

I just added a pdf to the attachments and options, looked at the preview and didn't see anything.
It will  only have statistics to 87 but lets see if it comes up

File size too big, so I'll put a link to my drop box here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/DivineLawRejectedStatistics.PDF
If you find a way to put it in the body, please do so.


Note, for those of you that never got the premoniton story heres another means of reading it.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Wayne%27s%20Dark%20Knight%20Tragedy%20Premonition.pdf

Again, you can't quote your way out of a wet paper bag. And you use statistic from a paper written nearly a quarter of a century ago in an effort to rebut the numbers on a charts from 2010. We tell you that the numbers are dropping, Willie shows you charts, and you run as quick as you can back to the dark ages and chisel a graph into stone to make what you think is the perfect retort.

Again, your scholarship sucks.

Edit: forgot his quoting sucked, so my first posting of this ended up in a purple box. Fixed my part.

[Hatter23]

Why don't you comment on the Saul Alynsky article while you're at it.

You say he's a liar, I say he's not.

He shows evidence, you do not

You ar an atheist, so was alynsky

And it still has nothing to do with the price of rice in China

I'm a Christian, so was John Adams

Yes one whom seems to have disparaged religion, Christianity, and even the concept of the Supernatural on a regular basis. It was almost like he knew that he had to maintain the title Christian if he had political asperations.

Where do we go from here?

Obviously nowhere.

[screwtape]

Why don't you comment on the Saul Alynsky article while you're at it.

Will it do any good?  If he is wrong, is there anything I could say that would make you change your mind?  Or would you simply disregard it, cling to your bigoted belief and just find a different source?  Tell me, Wayne, why I should invest the time and effort.

You say he's a liar, I say he's not.

I happened to have provided facts that back me up.  You are just making an assertion.

You ar an atheist, so was alynsky

So what?  Are you saying all people of a given category behave in exactly the same way?  You used to have a beard.  Did you behave as Charles Manson did when you had a beard?  You sort of call yourself a mormon.  Do you behave like the mormons who perpetrated Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Take that bigoted shit out of here, Wayne.

I'm a Christian, so was John Adams

That is debateable in both cases.  I contend mormons are not xians.  You seem to practice your own particular pseudo-creed which does include jesus H, but that in itself does not make it xian. 

Everything you think you know about Adams is in doubt because it seems to have all come from the same tained source.  I do not think it is as simple as a binary label - xian or not.  And even if Adams was a xian, it was not the same vein of xianity as you.  That is for sure.

Where do we go from here?

I dunno, Wayne.  You tell me.  What would it take for you to agree David Barton is a bad reference?  Would someone have to go through his stupid book and find every singly flaw?  If it is that, then I guess we are not going anywhere from here.  Or is it sufficient to find several examples of him being horribly, obviously, and intentionally wrong?  Or is it something else.

I've made other points in other posts which are relevant and you've not addressed them.  That might be a good place to start.

[ParkingPlaces]

^^^ Made me want to shout 'You go girl" even though you're not one. Does that make me gay?

[WayneHarropson]

The out of context portion you caught me on is very revealing.  What's funny is that even though I had it wrong, I rather agree with it in its context.  Adams was brilliant.  All that stuff about priestcraft is absolutely true! 
I'm so glad you corrected me on that one.  There has always been so much corruption in the name of Christianity that it deserves the excoriating Adams lent to it.

I admit, I'm not very scholarly, but I am a willing learner, and not afraid to learn something new from my opponents. Now, with all  that gratitude that I can express in my heart about having been corrected, can we at least come to an agreement that after all the very well deserved criticism of corruption that Adams landed clearly on the side of unadulterated Christianity?

Is that too much to ask?  Remember, I operate on the level of Jesus loves me this I know, and the Lord takes me on really cool plane rides and stuff.

And by the way, being here with all of you is just one more cool ride.

[ParkingPlaces]

^^^If he went all christian in the end, that's fine. But he wasn't a dyed-in-the-wool follower when he helped found the country. And that's the part that is important to this discussion.

If christianity were so important to them, why didn't they form a theocracy. And why do you want one now?

[bertatberts]

And by the way, being here with all of you is just one more cool ride.

Understandable! As ignorance is bliss.

[ParkingPlaces]

I admit, I'm not very scholarly, but I am a willing learner...

One more comment. It is fine that you're not a scholar. I'm not a scholar, so I'm in no position to diss you one that issue. The problem is this. You think you know how this country should be run, you think you know the source of all the problems, you think that only your generic religion should have any say, and yet you admit you're not a scholar.

You don't have enough information about reality to justify causing a negative impact my life, or the lives of American buddhists and jews and muslims and hindus and other atheists and followers of native religions. You want to have it your way, and yet you don't know enough to be making such huge decisions. I understand the emotions. I wish the whole country could be atheist. But I would never assume that my desires are an adequate justification for rearranging the lives of a couple of hundred million people. It is one thing to state a view, another to force it on innocents.

As you center in on just one cause of America's grief, you automatically ignore the big picture and the many reasons that society has been doing a backslide by 1950 standards. There is no such thing as one cause for a complex series of social changes. Nor is there such a thing as a simple answer for those same issues.

In short, you don't know enough to be demanding radical change in the lives of millions. You know enough to see that there are real problems. You know enough to participate in our democracy. But you don't know enough to label your ideas the ultimate answer. And you don't know enough to force me out of the country. Which is what your demands would force me to do should you succeed.

We're both Americans. This is a free country. What part of "free" don't you get?

[Hatter23]

We're both Americans. This is a free country. What part of "free" don't you get?

Like most people, the 'free' part where people operate contrary to what he thinks best. We are all guilty of it to a certain degree, it just seems that he is more guilty of it at least in this regards.

[WayneHarropson]

I better sign out, I'm having more fun here that I can currently afford to take the time for.  I would like to have some feed back on the Hitler alynsky thing.

And I keep forgetting to ask screwtape if he ever read the premonition thing.  I apologise that it for some reason doesn't come up on all browsers.  The link in a prior post will do the trick I think.

If you aren't finished being angry with me here's more fodder.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Judge%20Guilford.pdf  you have to see the video embedded in this one.



https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Adams%20Roams%20the%20Milky%20Way.pdf
I don't expect you to understand this one, it's a spiritual vision thing.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31276689/Obama%20Has%20Two%20American%20Parents%20Plus%20DefiledPoster3.pdf Why the Birthers Have been right, for the wrong reason.

Don't be surprised if you don't hear from me until Friday. 

Here's more to read from David Barton's site.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755