Please validate your belief in your God

[WayneHarropson]

James Madison

Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.
James Madison, letter to Jacob de la Motta, August 1820

So Madison wasn't looking for a Christian foundation of the USA

Madison meant Christian sect.  He also said:I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

Assuming he actually said that, I don't think that it has any real relevance.  For one thing, the Declaration was on July 4; Christmas is celebrated on December 25.  My brother, who's birthday is December 19, has a closer temporal link than the Declaration of Independence.  For another, while the Declaration attributes the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to an unnamed "Creator", and states that governments are instituted to secure those rights, it's more than a stretch to claim that these are a reference to Christianity, or that somehow human government is dependent on Christianity.  For one thing, governments existed before Christianity ever did; before Judaism ever did, for that matter.  For another, you could just as easily substitute some other religion instead of Christianity for this "Creator" and have it be just as true - making it an effectively meaningless statement, since it can mean anything.

The lady gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

[ParkingPlaces]

I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives.

Wayne,

I've corrected you on this already.  Most of the most influential school prayer suits[1] have been brought by religious minorities - jews, jehovah's witnesses, unitarians, and catholics.  Please stop repeating this lie.

1.	ie, the supreme court cases that established the precedence

And after acknowledging what screwtape has said, tell us why you think the stopping of prayer suddenly changed the whole country when before the ruling prayer was only required in five states, and only permitted, as an option, in 25 others. Shouldn't there have been high crime in the non-praying states already? Shouldn't high crime rates have already been optional in those 25 where prayer was optional?

That last sentence is a joke. Don't take it seriously and make up yet another answer, please.

[WayneHarropson]

Oh, and John Adams - speaking rather, I think of something other than a Christian god

It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshiping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ.  You only hope you can serparate them, though I don't know why you'd bother if none exists.  You are not going to win a war of quotes of the founding fathers to prove there is no God.  I think you know that.

[screwtape]

I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

Wayne, what "atheist" initiatives are you talking about?  Please be specific.

How have they "driven out" J-C constraints?  Be specific.

What J-C constraints are you talking about?  Be specific.

I wish I could show you the graphs

Why can't you?

...here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.

You speak as if there were nothing else going on in the 60s.  Don't you think there were other possible cultural factors? 

All to fulfill the atheist amoral agenda people like your pioneer MMOH selfishly promoted.

What is the agenda?  be specific.

What is amoral about it?  Be specific.

Please state the difference between amoral and immoral.

Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?

In 1962 American society was functional but there were many problems that you cannot blame on atheists.  For one, it was a time of great racial inequality.  There was great gender inequality as well.  There was a Cold War.  There was a war in Vietnam.  The first Wal-Mart was opened.  There was no EPA or clean water act.   

It is not the golden era you seem to think it was.  Some things may have been better then.  But some things were much worse.  Your assessment is bigoted and simplistic to the point of being childish.


edit - fixed quote and added two lines I forgot.

[WayneHarropson]

Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.

Wayne, why do you persist in insulting all the members here?

Uhh, what?

[jaimehlers]

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ.  You only hope you can serparate them, though I don't know why you'd bother if none exists.  You are not going to win a war of quotes of the founding fathers to prove there is no God.  I think you know that.

What you need to understand is that this is your belief, not necessarily the reality.  Other people who refer to "the Creator" or "the Supreme Being" (etc) are not necessarily speaking of your god.  As long as you keep insisting that they must be, people will easily be able to point out this flaw in your reasoning and will be able to use it to rebut your argument.  They don't have to prove that the Founding Fathers believed in no gods, they just have to prove that the Founding Fathers were not referring to Christianity in particular.  There's ample evidence to show that and practically nothing that shows a specific devotion or reference to Christianity.

[wright]

Others (who apparently are on East Coast time)  have already addressed most of your assertions. But I will reply to this.

Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?

It was a functional society in that it was relatively peaceful, safe for the vast majority, and arguably more prosperous than any other before it. And it remains functional, though less safe and less prosperous than it was. It's also markedly improved in many ways since 1962, though you clearly don't agree.

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

As pianodwarf and others have said, you need to show not just correlation but causation. The former is easy, the latter much less so. I doubt that such a connection exists because if it did, then there would be corresponding results in the real world that would back your assertion up.

Instead, the opposite occurs in countries where religion plays a lesser role in government and public life. Japan and Scandanavian Europe in particular; a phenomenon you have yet to address. Such societies have far less violent crime, greater levels of education, better public health and less disparity between rich and poor. Those countries are not paradises, but they show marked success over the US in many areas.

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.  If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.

As yet, you fail to convince that atheists are even on the hook. I deny that Christianity has any particular success in restraining evil, because all I have to do is look at history and the modern world to see evidence of that. Christianity is just another religion whose ethics its followers (for the most part) simply give lip service to. Christians get as many divorces as non-believers, commit as many violent crimes and are (as opposed to atheists) well-represented in US prisons.

[WayneHarropson]

I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

Wayne, what "atheist" initiatives are you talking about?  Please be specific.

How have they "driven out" J-C constraints?  Be specific.

What J-C constraints are you talking about?  Be specific.

I wish I could show you the graphs

Why can't you?

Theyre on a video tape and I have looked on the web for their counterparts.  If I find them I will.  Have you ever tried to digitize a video tape?
  Now screwtape, I know there a miriad of dynamics involved, but I'm on an atheist site right now talking to atheists who's core non belief in any higher law than themselves is a chief cornerstone to those forces that have crippled America's respect for righteous living.  Don't drag me off into all this other unrelated smegma to posture youself.  The higher law of the Ten Commandments made this most prosperous and free nation excel, the forces you side with that removed them, (and they have been removed) don't bear any more responsibility for it than  you do.  Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them, on the state level they would have been shunned, and rightfully so as all their initiatives played into the hands of the enemies of god and that would be atheists.  It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

So, those false religious strains did a lot of your atheist work for you.  That's what happens to with bad religion.

[ParkingPlaces]

Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.

[Dante]

It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

No Wayne, that doesn't follow. You're the one asserting that these horrific incidences are your deity's method of showing Americans the error of their ways, so it follows that your deity had a hand in these messages, no? So, if your god had a hand in it, what was it?

Was it simply to sit back and watch it happen to show us those errors of disbelief? Well, that didn't work simply because there's still an absence of this little thing we like to call "evidence", which we tie to this other little thing we like to call "reality". My reality requires evidence. But, perhaps my standard of evidence differs from yours? If so, I hope you're never on a jury of my peers, because your evidence for your god's existence, or your causation of schoolyard massacres, isn't even circumstantial.

Why can your deity not clearly communicate? Does it have some sort of speech impediment?

The free will argument is as flawed as ever. Omniscience precludes free will. If your deity knows all that ever was and ever will be, it already knew the path America would take, the path that you would take, the path that each and every on of us will take. There is no changing it, for changing it would either go against your god's plan (which I assume you believe is impossible), or not align with what is known as omniscience. There is no way around it, Wayne. Either it knows, or it does not know. And if it knows our path, then our path is already set. There is no free will to be had in this scenario.

Why does your deity not want everyone to believe and be saved?

Listen carefully, Wayne. Most of us atheists don't believe your deity exists. We don't believe ANY deity exists. We're not angry, and we don't actually choose to disbelieve. We just don't see any compelling evidence. For most of us, there's simply no choice in the matter, just as there's no choice in the matter of your disbelief in Santa Claus.

Furthermore, would your deity come out of hiding, and make it's presence unambiguously known, all of us would become believers (believer being a misnomer, as we would become "knowers", I suppose.)! We really would! It's all any of us ask for, ad nauseum!

That's not to say there would be a 100% worship ratio, because there could still be rejection of it's rules based on our personal wants and desires and moral character, but we would at least know it existed! And hey, that's something, right?

Unfortunately, it seems your god doesn't want everyone to know it exists. Which, if true, seems pretty fucking sadistic for a "loving god", considering the punishment for this slight transgression is purported to be ETERNAL DAMNATION!

If an omnipotent being WANTS for anything, it is obviously not omnipotent. That's the very definition of omnipotent; ALL POWERFUL! So explain to me how an all powerful deity can want for anything? How an omnipotent deity can get angry? Be jealous? Have any emotion at all?

It cannot, Wayne. It simply cannot. Or, it's not omnipotent.

Or, it's imaginary.

[WayneHarropson]

Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I know.  I deserved that.  Funny huh?

[ParkingPlaces]

Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them

This from a semi-mormon. I personally know five republican christians who refused to vote for Romney because of his religion. Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I know.  I deserved that.  Funny huh?

Our demand for religious freedom includes you, dude.

[WayneHarropson]

It's complicated, but none of your gesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.
That is what this whole discussion is about.

No Wayne, that doesn't follow. You're the one asserting that these horrific incidences are your deity's method of showing Americans the error of their ways, so it follows that your deity had a hand in these messages, no? So, if your god had a hand in it, what was it?

Was it simply to sit back and watch it happen to show us those errors of disbelief? Well, that didn't work simply because there's still an absence of this little thing we like to call "evidence", which we tie to this other little thing we like to call "reality". My reality requires evidence. But, perhaps my standard of evidence differs from yours? If so, I hope you're never on a jury of my peers, because your evidence for your god's existence, or your causation of schoolyard massacres, isn't even circumstantial.

Why can your deity not clearly communicate? Does it have some sort of speech impediment?

The free will argument is as flawed as ever. Omniscience precludes free will. If your deity knows all that ever was and ever will be, it already knew the path America would take, the path that you would take, the path that each and every on of us will take. There is no changing it, for changing it would either go against your god's plan (which I assume you believe is impossible), or not align with what is known as omniscience. There is no way around it, Wayne. Either it knows, or it does not know. And if it knows our path, then our path is already set. There is no free will to be had in this scenario.

Why does your deity not want everyone to believe and be saved?

Listen carefully, Wayne. Most of us atheists don't believe your deity exists. We don't believe ANY deity exists. We're not angry, and we don't actually choose to disbelieve. We just don't see any compelling evidence. For most of us, there's simply no choice in the matter, just as there's no choice in the matter of your disbelief in Santa Claus.

Furthermore, would your deity come out of hiding, and make it's presence unambiguously known, all of us would become believers (believer being a misnomer, as we would become "knowers", I suppose.)! We really would! It's all any of us ask for, ad nauseum!

That's not to say there would be a 100% worship ratio, because there could still be rejection of it's rules based on our personal wants and desires and moral character, but we would at least know it existed! And hey, that's something, right?

Unfortunately, it seems your god doesn't want everyone to know it exists. Which, if true, seems pretty ducking sadistic for a "loving god", considering the punishment for this slight transgression is purported to be ETERNAL DAMNATION!

If an omnipotent being WANTS for anything, it is obviously not omnipotent. That's the very definition of omnipotent; ALL POWERFUL! So explain to me how an all powerful deity can want for anything? How an omnipotent deity can get angry? Be jealous? Have any emotion at all?

It cannot, Wayne. It simply cannot. Or, it's not omnipotent.

Or, it's imaginary.

Did I accuse you of being angry?  I must have somewhere. You don't have to tell me you aren't angry, I would never have thought such a thing.
OK, I'm playing with you.
He's a mysterious and mostly silent God.  Much of what you blaze about here I can affirm as to be quite frustrating, and you articulate it well.  He gave you great abilities to articulate your rational world and then throws you irrational curve balls.  It's weird. I agree. 

Maybe you could lighten up on me if you realised that I  don't know the answers, and on a rational basis no better than you at figuring God out.  But just think about a God that would be providing me these premonitions to share with you.  Hey, I'm just the messenger after all.

You want to hear something funny?  I grew up with the name Speed.  I didn't even know my name was DeWayne until kindergarten.  (I dropped the De).  About a year and a half ago my business hit the skids with the economy, and that's when I got the thirteen volumes out of my attic that contained premonitions.  While discovering these amazing connections in my writings to this present day that old nickname speed came to mind, and when I looked into its origins I discovered that in old English it was commonly used for "messenger".  It's synonymous with Rush.  There is a movie out now called premium rush. about a messenger. My parents didn't give me that name but an uncle did when he was told how I was born before they could get me to the hospital.  He  called me speedy.  It stuck.  it really stuck.  That uncle was the product of some of my ancestors polygamous past just to add a little spice to the story.  Now I know that this is kind of a personal quirky thing, but that uncle spiritually christened me with a moniker without knowing what he was doing.  And the name stuck for reasons I know that no one knew, certainly not me.  But when those volumes came out of the attic, and their contents revealed prophetic information, I for the first time discovered that I was a messenger. Speed.

So now you know (some of ) the rest of the story.
Good Day!

Ps. I let spell check correct your part of this message, or I might not have been able to respond.  It says duck now.

[screwtape]

Theyre on a video tape and I have looked on the web for their counterparts.  If I find them I will.  Have you ever tried to digitize a video tape?

If the information is so esoteric as to only exist in one place, chances are it's a fraud.  And while I have never personally digitized a video tape, I know people who have.

atheists who's core non belief in any higher law than themselves is a chief cornerstone to those forces that have crippled America's respect for righteous living.

Wayne, I am afraid I am going to have to use some blue language to convey just what I mean.  Be prepared.

Don't fucking tell me what I believe you arrogant, emptyheaded fuckwad.  You have already demonstrated you don't know shit about shit.  So hows about you drop the stupid prejudices and listen to what people are telling you about themselves?

Don't drag me off into all this other unrelated smegma to posture youself.

Wayne, you give yourself too much credit.  You have no idea where I'm going with this.   

The higher law of the Ten Commandments made this most prosperous and free nation excel,

Actually, they didn't.  Democracy is based on Greek and Roman philosophy and culture.  There is nothing democratic about judaism or xianity.  In fact, they are anti-democratic because they are monarchic hierarchies.  That is to say, they portray an ideal universe as one where one king in the sky rules one king on earth who rules a bunch of priests or tribal leaders, who rule the rest of us.  That is not democracy.  That is monarchy.  And monarchy is what the American colonists sort of fought against.   

As for the 10 commandments, you haven't said which 10 commandments.  There are a couple versions.  One version includes "thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk".  Whacky, huh?

And if they are the 10 I think you mean, at least half of them are irrelelvant to a good society.  The others were not original to judaism and predated them by hundreds if not thousands of years.  Don't kill people, don't steal stuff, don't pork other people's spouses, don't lie.  All those predate the OT.  And, not coincidentally, atheists agree with them. 

That's the thing.  We don't want to get rid of morality.  We just want xians to keep their fricken religion to themselves and to follow the constitution.  Is that too much to ask?

Here's the problem Wayne.  You think you know things.  You don't.  You don't know anything.
 

Catholics, Jews, Jehovahs witnesses all are bad strains of the true gospel, on a national level the founders were wise to tolerate them, on the state level they would have been shunned, and rightfully so as all their initiatives played into the hands of the enemies of god and that would be atheists.  It's complicated, but none of your jesticulating can remove your complicity in those children's deaths.

That's just your bigoted opinion.  There are no facts or winning arguments there.  Just your petulant, ugly wishes without any evidence that we should take them to be true.

So, those false religious strains did a lot of your atheist work for you.  That's what happens to with bad religion.

More of the same.  They just wanted to not have other people's religion shoved down their throats.

[Dante]

He's a mysterious and mostly silent God.  Much of what you blaze about here I can affirm as to be quite frustrating, and you articulate it well.  He gave you great abilities to articulate your rational world and then throws you irrational curve balls.  It's weird. I agree. 

Yeah, weird. Or, it could be your beliefs are irrational, and your god is imaginary.

Edit to add: Also weird[1] that you didn't address any of the questions or points, and fall back on "mysterious ways" malarky. You seemed to have all the answers before. I was hoping for better from you, Wayne.

You want to hear something funny? 

Most of what you've already said is quite funny, if not for the fact that you really believe it. Then it's just scary.

Do you wanna hear something funny? My birth name is John Christopher, and yet here I am, about as atheist as it gets. Weird, huh?

Ps. I let spell check correct your part of this message, or I might not have been able to respond. 

You might not have been able?

Duck you.

1.	not really, we all saw it coming

[wheels5894]

Wayne,

As people have said above it is no good ranting. We really want to understand your logic and working out that the lack of prayers was the problem. Can you set it down in steps for us to see?

[Hatter23]

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ. 

So says you, other people say differently. There's an issue though, every 'proof' people produce operates on some sort of logical fallacy. There's nothing to seperate what you are say from the rantings of a mad man other than popularity and tradition. There is nothing to seperate what other religions say is true from the rantings of a mad man other than popularity and tradition.

Logically speaking, every brand of theism can't all be right. It is quite possible for all brands of theism to be wrong. The position that each other brand of theism is wrong is not mad, after all you agree with it. If we listed 100 gods, the only one you would select as real would be Yahweh/Jesus...you would show yourself 99% atheist.

So we have atheism which esentially takes the poistion of unless you can provide a compelling argument that your version of of theism is the only and correct one that could not equally apply to one of your competitors, we will go that extra 1%. Despite billions of dollars spent, wars fought, and hundreds if not thousands of book of Apolgia...none of you have come up with said compelling reasonable argument. I, for one, have gotten the point, your Jesus doesn't exist. There may have been some historical legend it was based off of, but the one you believe is still around as an invisible intangible superbeing doesn't exist, never existed, using the tri-omni paradox couldn't possibly have existed.

 

[12 Monkeys]

 Does the pre 1962 thing just mean in terms of religion or is it an African American freedom thing also,Wayne? Are you saying America started the downhill slide when they started the civil rights movement or is that just coincidence?

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne,

As people have said above it is no good ranting. We really want to understand your logic and working out that the lack of prayers was the problem. Can you set it down in steps for us to see?

Thanks Wheels. 

A lot of personal insulting and profanity going on around here.  What if god set you all in a world with a whole heck of a lot of evidence that everything is determined by science and math and logic and all the stuff that really does help you get on well in this world.  You know, like what makes you feel secure in your ability to make sense of things and stuff.  After a while, you would probably think that you knew all the rules that govern things and then might get the notion that there is no god because, from all the rules you have figured out, he doesn't quite compute.  Would your inability to detect his presence with the tools he left you mean he isn't there?

Someone whose name I shall not mention above is as certain that this god doesn't exist as he is that I don't know (nothing), (expletives deleted).  That's one heck of a persuasive argument. 

I believe the best balance between the known world and the unknown world is to affirm all we know, and admit humbly that there is a supernatural world that you don't know.  I don't frankly see a problem with that, except in the area like where bad religious hucksters start selling supernatural snake oil. 

That is an area of this issue that might make me side with atheists.  More lies are perpetrated in the name of religion that anything else.  But that does not cause me to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Evil is in the world and what better place for it to hide than behind false religion?

You asked me for steps.
Well, let's see.  How to detect the presence of God that purposefully hides himself from unbelievers.  Would you excuse me for a while, I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.

In the mean time I will postulate some personal theories that simply come from my own experiences.  I used to read a book series called His mysterious ways.  I think, along with my evangelical sunday school background these books did more in helping me recognise God' hand than even maybe the bible itself.  Oh they fully affirm the bible in every aspect but what is remarkable about them is the examples of God's providence in peoples lives.

I know you have heard stories like these, PP mentioned a Readers Digest story that had a similar theme.  Now, my curiosity for the God of the bible made these stores particularly inviting.

I just read a new one like what I'm referring to just a couple of weeks ago on line.  Here's a summary of it.  A Pastor of a church in California is traveling with his family by car in Washington state.  They stop for a rest and while the wife and kids are in a store he walks around stretching his legs sipping on a slurpee when a telephone rings at a gas station pay phone.  It rings and rings and rings, and starts getting on his nerves.  He finally picks up the receiver and the operator says she has a long distance call for, and says his name.  He understandably reacts with shock and asks how they knew he was there.  So he takes the call and the woman on the other end said that she was about to take her life, and prayed to god for help.  A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.
Now the rational mind would be able to take this account and be forced to attribute it to a prank, because there is no other possible explanation.  But for someone like me it is entirely believable because it matches the uncanny experiences of my life. 

http://www.smilegodlovesyou.org/kengaub.html

I don't know this guy, never saw him on TV, all I know about is this story I read, but  like the stories I read in the  His Mysterious Ways series, I became attuned to how God works.

Another one that is so bizarre is a story about a missionary that goes alone to speak to the natives before the gospel is translated to the native tongue.  The guy contracts a dread disease, held at spearpoint, threatened with death, and then a helicopter flies over, unaccountably.  He's able to hail the pilot who was not looking for him, got rescued, hospitalized,and after his recovery returned to the villiage with a new found respect among the villagers because of the miraculous bird that took him away.  They listened raptly to every word of their messanger from god and he was able to translate the gospel successfully to them. During the process he's trying to tell them about how the gospel comes from a book.  What he doesn't know is that they have in their native folklore a story that attributes good luck of some kind to a banana stalk/Pod of some kind.  I think they called it their god pod , or god tree or something. While he is trying to describe the pages of the book one of them takes this big pod thing and slams it in front of him like trying to ring a bell  with a giant mallet, the pod pops open and its contents flays out just like the pages of a book.  It turned out that god had given the villiage a premonition in their own folklore that confirmed that god would send them a book, before they knew what a book was. Extraneous stuff.  It not only confirmed the meaning to the natives, but assured the missionary that he wasn't on some fools errand to be out there in the first place. 
So if there is a step, I'd say the first is curiosity.  If you don't want to know, then forget it.

[WayneHarropson]

On the contrary, there is no other  SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe than Jesus Christ. 

 If we listed 100 gods, the only one you would select as real would be Yahweh/Jesus...you would show yourself 99% atheist.

Is it too late to change my screen name.  I want to change it to:  99% atheist.

Then maybe Ill get some respect around here!

Great post.

[ParkingPlaces]

Wayne

First of all, your comment on our insults seems to neglect the ones you've thrown our way. Here are a bunch of them, all in one text box.

I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn' t he have under the atheist philosophy?

My premonition is like another 9/11 judgment that atheists can take the full blame for.

And while you are at it maybe you should take a close look at your philisophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.     

 Atheists infiltrate and let off a big fat stink bomb in the middle of everything and  that's where I'll  have to leave you hanging.  My eyes are watering it stinks so bad.

As you can imagine, we don't take to being belittled any more than anyone else. I only opened up on you when you started saying things like you did above. Yes, we use a little more profanity, but the effect is similar either way. So, as a kettle calling the pot black, you are no better than we are. No worse either. But no better. If you are willing to participate in renewed effort at civil discourse, I, for one, am also. I can't speak for the others however. See, we don't actually have a philosophy, so I don't know how they feel about such things. But you and I can try.

Now. Are you able to respond to these two questions (modified: one question and one point of discussion):

1. Only five states required prayer prior to 1962. Twenty-five allowed it as optional in the classroom. Twenty did not allow it. Can you find statistics to show that the twenty states that did not allow it in the first place already had sky-high crime rates, or not? If there was no measurable difference between said rates, and crime went up everywhere over the decades after the ruling, is it not possible that there are other reasons for the crime increase.

Bonus question. Crime rates in most categories have fallen dramatically in the last 10-15 years. How would that be possible if the prayer issue was the catalyst for the problem in the first place.

2. The atheist among us do not believe in your god. It is fine for you to say that you do, and explain why certain things in your life seem to require a god, but for gosh sake dude, don't make blanket statements that depend entirely upon the actual existence of said god and then assume we will accept them carte blanche. When you say things like this,

You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?

the "Need I say more?" thing is rude. Of course you need to say more. And more importantly, you need to be willing to listen to us when we protest your conclusions.

You have stamina, and you are irking us adequately, so I hope you stay around. But when all of us get into radical insult mode, the fun goes out of the discussion rather quickly. Some of us have quicker tempers, others minimal patience, while still others are just all around nice people who tend to stay out of the more pithy conversations.

We would love it if you would respond to some of our questions, like the one I asked in item #1. I know you're getting whopped upside the head a few more times a day than you planned, but if you are going to take the time to talk at us, please also take the time to respond to our sincere efforts at debating you on the issues you have provided. I've given up on the premonition thing myself. You don't understand odds and/or stastistics and you accept here say as truth whenever you like what you heard. So I personally will give you all the premonition you want. I don't believe it for a second but I've decided that's beside the point. I am much more interested in the political end of your argument, and the tendency you have to assign truth to things you've read on theist web sites. Because I know all to well that the O'Hair/prayer issue isn't something that you originated. Now that you've been shown that we don't see the statistical link that you claim is so important, we would like to know why you are still so attached to it.

And in your last post, with the phone call at the gas station. A) I have no reason to believe it and B) why didn't the school kids get to make a phone call. That is, why would god allow this woman in distress to somehow get in touch with the pastor (I won't even ask why a christian would be in distress. I thought everything was kittens and candy), while totally ignoring the school gunman and the plight of the innocents there. If god is real, has that sort of ability, and did nothing, he will never get my respect anyway.

Your turn.

[WayneHarropson]

Does the pre 1962 thing just mean in terms of religion or is it an African American freedom thing also,Wayne? Are you saying America started the downhill slide when they started the civil rights movement or is that just coincidence?

I'm not being scientific.  There were forces leading up to this before 1962.  Actually there was some other court decision prior to that in '58 as well but  I can't recall off the top of my head.  Civil rights has Zero to do with anything I'm talking about here.  Separation of church and state had everything to do with the Federal government not imposing a specific Denomination on the nation, and nothing to do with limiting Christianity influence on the Federal Government.

An honest Atheist would be able with their considerable logical powers come to that conclusion from the evidence in what Jefferson said.

The real test of honesty is when someone can admit that a commonly misconstrued rumor doesn't support their viewpoint as well as their less honest allies say it does.

[ParkingPlaces]

An honest Atheist would be able with their considerable logical powers come to that conclusion from the evidence in what Jefferson said.

An honest theist would know that getting everything your way is both wrong and selfish. If what you wish were true actually was the founding fathers would have just formed a theocracy and left no doubt. They did not.

This planet is inhabited by many. Your god, if he exists, did not bother spreading his word to all the cultures of the world 2,000 years ago. Multiple religions exist, and as much as you love yours, you need to acknowledge that others, others who are as good and kind and loving as you, believe differently. On top of that, there are some of us, also kind and caring and loving, who do not think that there is a god. None of the other groups are automatically less human, but you want all to follow your way or leave. You want all to be just like you. And the planet doesn't work that way. Your hopes and dreams for a monoculture society in which everything is perfect because all love god in identical ways is a pipe dream at best. To a large portion of the population, it would be a horror story.

We are willing to have you amongst us. You are not willing to have us amongst you. Who's being the wrong sort of person here. Where is your gods love if you can't even practice it?

[WayneHarropson]

Wayne

First of all, your comment on our insults seems to neglect the ones you've thrown our way. Here are a bunch of them, all in one text box.

I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly by victims of the outlawing of the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

Just to remind you, the office manager killed and mutilated them.  I ask you, why shouldn't' t he have under the atheist philosophy?

My premonition is like another 9/11 judgment that atheists can take the full blame for.

And while you are at it maybe you should take a close look at your philosophical origins to detect whether what influenced your perspective didn't come from the same rotten place as hers.     

 Atheists infiltrate and let off a big fat stink bomb in the middle of everything and  that's where I'll  have to leave you hanging.  My eyes are watering it stinks so bad.

As you can imagine, we don't take to being belittled any more than anyone else. I only opened up on you when you started saying things like you did above. Yes, we use a little more profanity, but the effect is similar either way. So, as a kettle calling the pot black, you are no better than we are. No worse either. But no better. If you are willing to participate in renewed effort at civil discourse, I, for one, am also. I can't speak for the others however. See, we don't actually have a philosophy, so I don't know how they feel about such things. But you and I can try.

You might have noticed in all my criticism I was blanketing you all together, and none of you personally.  I get your point but to me all of you are operating in the spirit of MMOH.  Some of you have tried to put some distance between you and her character and her very notable and instructive demise.  I have yet to insult you as you have me personally.  We have grave arguments, you make it personal, I make it general.  You think your association with MMOH leaves you without a stench, but it's hard to smell something when you have chosen to live in it.

Now. Are you able to respond to these two questions (modified: one question and one point of discussion):

1. Only five states required prayer prior to 1962.  allowed it as optional in the classroom. Twenty did not allow it. Can you find statistics to show that the twenty states that did not allow it in the first place already had sky-high crime rates, or not? If there was no measurable difference between said rates, and crime went up everywhere over the decades after the ruling, is it not possible that there are other reasons for the crime increase

.

You are insisting scientific precision no matter how I explain that I use prayer in school as emblematic of the whole progression of animus for Christianity that is enveloped by that and every other anti Christ movement that followed it.  MMOH's was bible reading, not prayer.  Later it was the Ten Commandments and don't tell me you don't know which ten.  You insult only yourself by asking. 

Bonus question. Crime rates in most categories have fallen dramatically in the last 10-15 years. How would that be possible if the prayer issue was the catalyst for the problem in the first place.

OK, so the scale starts out at a two out of ten prior to 1962.  Animosity for Christian values begins and the rate progresses in to the eightys at a logarithmic rate.  It stabilises at say seven to eight out of ten, and than tapers off and you want to attribute all the wonders of atheism to it miraculously staying under eight?  You won your fight, the harm is not only well entrenched but persists.  And all of this because of a lie, the lie of separation of church and state.  Remember OJ Simpson's Glove analogy.  You got away with murder whether you can be honest with yourself about it or not.  Don't take it personally, I'm talking to all of you.

2. The atheist among us do not believe in your god.

Hello

It is fine for you to say that you do, and explain why certain things in your life seem to require a god, but for gosh sake dude, don't make blanket statements that depend entirely upon the actual existence of said god and then assume we will accept them carte blanche. When you say things like this,

You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?

the "Need I say more?" thing is rude.

Would somewone else like to chime in and concur with how rude that statement is?

Of course you need to say more. And more importantly, you need to be willing to listen to us when we protest your conclusions.

I try.

You have stamina, and you are irking us adequately, so I hope you stay around. But when all of us get into radical insult mode, the fun goes out of the discussion rather quickly. Some of us have quicker tempers, others minimal patience, while still others are just all around nice people who tend to stay out of the more pithy conversations.

Maybe I don't take it as personally as you do.  I'm rather enjoying myself.

Because I know all to well that the O'Hair/prayer issue isn't something that you originated.

David Barton's efforts have influenced me.  Look him up.

And in your last post, with the phone call at the gas station. A) I have no reason to believe it and B) why didn't the school kids get to make a phone call. That is, why would god allow this woman in distress to somehow get in touch with the pastor (I won't even ask why a christian would be in distress. I thought everything was kittens and candy), while totally ignoring the school gunman and the plight of the innocents there. If god is real, has that sort of ability, and did nothing, he will never get my respect anyway.

Why God lovingly entertains his children with joy, and answers their prayer with wonders in one case and then allows grizzly disasters in another is a dilemma that no Christian can explain.  But he does do it all.

I've been offering you an answer specifically to the grizzly one, He want you to know that there are long term real effects to anti christian policies.  How else is he going to get your attention.  It has been fifty years since the demon seed was spawned in all those disastrous policies.

I suggest, for your own sake and for the sake of the ones you love that you look into what it takes to get on the good side of the creator of the universe.  A good Christian church can give you the basics.  If you can get past the fact that God uses imperfect men to disperse his truth, he will use those imperfect churches and people to supplement your personal search and devotion, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't speak to you in a manner or circumstance that will impress his power and dominion for a lifetime. 

That pastor that got the phonecall was in the dregs when that call came in.  Just imagine how much his attitude changed from one small incident. Some of these encounters can sustain a Christian for the rest of their lives, never doubting.  The following is from scripture detailing that even the Christian lives in a mystery, but not without help.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
 
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
 
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
 
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 

Taken from II Corinthians 4

And so is the life of the believer.

Many of you have likely never encountered Christ in your realm of influences.  He can meet you right where you are if you are open to him.  He can put you on the road to redemption.

[ParkingPlaces]

I'm not going to fix your posts anymore. I consider your inability to follow a few simple step and quote properly is indicative of your inability to do anything right. You are making up numbers, misattributing quotes (I never said a thing about the ten commandments, but your response above indicate that I did) and generally thinking us fools because you don't realize that you're looking into a mirror.

We are blanketing you all together as well. However, since there is just one of you, you get to take it personally.

I am not a christian for a variety of reasons. Here are four.

1. I am morally superior to the entity that you call god. Both of my kids are still alive.
2. If I had the power to help any person or any group or any planet with power that are far beyond anything they could muster, I would do it. I wouldn't make my own rules that prevented me from being, oh, I dunno, loving?
3. All religions have invisible gods. They have to. None exist. You can excuse that fact to yourself, but never to me.
4. Religion is in disarray because it is made up. And because it is made up, every single, I repeat, every single believer that shows up here has a unique view of his or her religion. Every single one. We usually have to spend the first three or four days figuring out WTF they believe so we can talk to them in a language they understand. One true god should, if omnipotent and stuff, be able to get one true religion down to planet earth and have followers that are not simply taken in by tall hats and gold tablets, and not given permission to customize it any way they want. Like you have done.

There once was a fellow who was a member of the KKK. At a meeting one evening he stood up and asked the Grand Asshole or whatever they're called what the Klan would do once it got rid of all the blacks. The Grand Pedobear responded "Start getting rid of brown-eyed people". Which shook the questioner, since he had brown eyes. He left the group and never looked back. That made him understand the deep hole that is prejudice.

If you get your way, and only christians are allowed in this country (which, as a democracy would have to be the case because nobody else would have any say in the government and might was well leave), then you folks would start fighting amongst yourselves so fast that the Irish Troubles would look like a ballerina birthday party for a four year old girl. And if you survived, holed up in a cave in the woods, and got word the the Pentacostal snakehandlers had taken over and dictated a rattlesnake in every classroom, you would find yourself in the postion we are in now. Wanting a say in a hostile political system.

Well, you can go ahead and shoot bullets at the side of the barn and then draw chalk circles around each one and call yourself the best shot in the land all you want. Your attitude has finally put me off. There is no need for me to discuss anything with a person I otherwise enjoy if all you can do is command us to do it your way. I'd rather go talk about numbers with Olivanus.

[wright]

You are insisting scientific precision no matter how I explain that I use prayer in school as emblematic of the whole progression of animus for Christianity that is enveloped by that and every other anti Christ movement that followed it.  MMOH's was bible reading, not prayer.  Later it was the Ten Commandments and don't tell me you don't know which ten.  You insult only yourself by asking. 

We are insisting on verifiable evidence because that is what's needed for your assertions to become more than personal opinion. That's the gold standard on this forum. It doesn't have to be precise, but it does have to be specific. That is, if you could show a direct link, preferably with multiple sources of evidence, between the cessation of state-endorsed religion in US public schools, and a rise in crime rates.

ParkingPlaces:

Bonus question. Crime rates in most categories have fallen dramatically in the last 10-15 years. How would that be possible if the prayer issue was the catalyst for the problem in the first place.

OK, so the scale starts out at a two out of ten prior to 1962.  Animosity for Christian values begins and the rate progresses in to the eightys at a logarithmic rate.  It stabilises at say seven to eight out of ten, and than tapers off and you want to attribute all the wonders of atheism to it miraculously staying under eight?  You won your fight, the harm is not only well entrenched but persists.  And all of this because of a lie, the lie of separation of church and state.  Remember OJ Simpson's Glove analogy.  You got away with murder whether you can be honest with yourself about it or not.  Don't take it personally, I'm talking to all of you.

Ok, what you need to understand Wayne, is that you just threw out some more assertions and did not back them up. Leaving aside your entirely arbitrary animosity scale, and that you don't even define what you mean by "animosity", where is the evidence of all this?

You do not link to sources. You do not refer us to any (within the last few years would be ideal) published books or articles. Your opinions are clearly heartfelt, but without any facts that we can look at and evaluate for ourselves, they remain just that.

[DumpsterFire]

I just read a new one like what I'm referring to just a couple of weeks ago on line.  Here's a summary of it.  A Pastor of a church in California is traveling with his family by car in Washington state.  They stop for a rest and while the wife and kids are in a store he walks around stretching his legs sipping on a slurpee when a telephone rings at a gas station pay phone.  It rings and rings and rings, and starts getting on his nerves.  He finally picks up the receiver and the operator says she has a long distance call for, and says his name.  He understandably reacts with shock and asks how they knew he was there.  So he takes the call and the woman on the other end said that she was about to take her life, and prayed to god for help.  A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.

The story is not true. In Gaub's own testimony (re: your link) he says the woman wrote down the random numbers and then dialed them, ringing the gas station pay phone. When he answered, supposedly a phone operator asked him if he was Ken Gaub. The story apparently takes place sometime in the 1990's (Gaub's testimony, dated 11/17/99, says the event happened "several years ago") when direct-dialed calls were standard. He later testifies that the woman dialed the number herself, which would mean there would have been no operator on the line. Including the detail about the operator asking for him by name is just an attempt to make the false story more compelling.

[12 Monkeys]

Does the pre 1962 thing just mean in terms of religion or is it an African American freedom thing also,Wayne? Are you saying America started the downhill slide when they started the civil rights movement or is that just coincidence?

I'm not being scientific.  There were forces leading up to this before 1962.  Actually there was some other court decision prior to that in '58 as well but  I can't recall off the top of my head.  Civil rights has Zero to do with anything I'm talking about here.  Separation of church and state had everything to do with the Federal government not imposing a specific Denomination on the nation, and nothing to do with limiting Christianity influence on the Federal Government.

An honest Atheist would be able with their considerable logical powers come to that conclusion from the evidence in what Jefferson said.

The real test of honesty is when someone can admit that a commonly misconstrued rumor doesn't support their viewpoint as well as their less honest allies say it does.

Yes but your viewpoint as I understand it was the focal point 1962.......I asked if you were meaning the separation of church and state or the civil rights movement that lead to God being pissed? or both? The focal point for me would be 100 years earlier 1862......when the good Christians used smallpox,TB and influenza to wipe out 90% of my population.

 Your delusions of grandeur where it comes to what YOU know what your "God" thinks and why he acts the way he does is amazing

[WayneHarropson]

I just read a new one like what I'm referring to just a couple of weeks ago on line.  Here's a summary of it.  A Pastor of a church in California is traveling with his family by car in Washington state.  They stop for a rest and while the wife and kids are in a store he walks around stretching his legs sipping on a slurpee when a telephone rings at a gas station pay phone.  It rings and rings and rings, and starts getting on his nerves.  He finally picks up the receiver and the operator says she has a long distance call for, and says his name.  He understandably reacts with shock and asks how they knew he was there.  So he takes the call and the woman on the other end said that she was about to take her life, and prayed to god for help.  A number came into her mind and the name of the preacher,(who she had seen on TV).  She dialed the number and so he was able to talk to her.

The story is not true. In Gaub's own testimony (re: your link) he says the woman wrote down the random numbers and then dialed them, ringing the gas station pay phone. When he answered, supposedly a phone operator asked him if he was Ken Gaub. The story apparently takes place sometime in the 1990's (Gaub's testimony, dated 11/17/99, says the event happened "several years ago") when direct-dialed calls were standard. He later testifies that the woman dialed the number herself, which would mean there would have been no operator on the line. Including the detail about the operator asking for him by name is just an attempt to make the false story more compelling.

I misundertand.  Are you saying I lied about the story, or Ken Gaub lied about the story?
It's his story, I  was recounting my understandin of it.  My rendition can be completely ignored if you have read the original.
I'm glad you read it though.