Please validate your belief in your God

[wright]

FWIW Wayne, I admire your persistence. I'm no closer to agreeing with you than I was before, but I certainly wouldn't have lasted as long as you have, were I the only atheist answering a bunch of Christians.

[DVZ3]

Wayne reminds me of none other than a male version of my mother at times.  My mom, who has been a Christian most of her adult life (Christians got a hold of her mind after she was first divorced, go figure) refuses to believe I could possibly be an atheist. I should add here that my mom is a very smart women but is surprisingly naive and gullible, especially when it comes to cob-webbing mundane things deemed by her to be not coincidences, but signs from god. Every time she starts doing that with me I start to smirk... Can't help it.

But even when I was old enough to finally openly admit to her that I didn't believe the whole bible thing as she did she was very upset. To this day she still doesn't really get it but is understanding. She'll say things like "but you can't be an atheist! You're such a loving, caring, sensitive, and compassionate person... You just can't be!" as if it took an ancient book to bequeath these human traits.  Or maybe it was by pure, unimaginably large, statistical mix of dice in the DNA helix. 

Sadly, she has been indoctrinated to think this by the church and other Christian zombies who can't ven think alike among their own kind.  ; I know this because I remember sitting at church while the pastor would totally misrepresent atheism as I understand today outside looking in.

Sadly moreover, I have to sit and see all the Facebook god type posts as well as all the Christian pro-gun bs after such tragedy as this last one. All the while this evil atheist, liberal wants to see some sort of gun control moving forward.  I told my mom and other Christians... You want a sign for gun control!? How bout a mass shooting of kids happening in none other than a town called "Newtown"....... In "New Town" folks...

Blind hypocrites, blind hypocrites, blind hypocrites...

I now understand why in the bible the character Jesus says "forgive them father, for they know not what they do!"

.... And they still don't. 

[WayneHarropson]

Madalyn O'Hair hardly succeeded in removing "Judeo Christian principles from public life". She certainly played a part in stopping state-sanctioned promotion of religion in US public schools, but you're really giving her too much credit. Students are still free to pray on their own, bring and study their bibles in their free time, organize religious clubs, even proselytize to other students within limits. And that's just in the public schools. I find it amazing that you and some other Christians still don't think that's enough.

I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.  I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.  All to fulfill the atheist amoral agenda people like your pioneer MMOH selfishly promoted.

He shouldn't have murdered them because virtually every functional society in human history has agreed that's unacceptable. A community of hunter-gatherers can't last with such maladaptive behavior running rampant, much less a modern nation of almost half a billion people. The vast majority of human beings manage to coexist without resorting to homicide, despite what the mass media might tell you in order to sell ad slots.

Did you consider the pre 1962 American society a functional society?  If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion?  Or will you hold to your guns no matter who is harmed by an empty godless philosophy?

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.  If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.

[WayneHarropson]

20,000,000 NASCAR fans can't be right, so they watch races instead. Please buy a lifetime pass.

I'm a car guy that never watches nascar. Other than that, everything else you said made about as much sense and applies to me just about as much.  I'm not sure but did you just try to insult me personally?  I might have missed something.

Good night.

[nogodsforme]

Wayne,
You cannot make someone believe something. And you should not try to force people to believe something by threatening them with discrimination or persecution. Because then people will just lie, say they believe in god, and you won't be able to tell the difference. So what is the point? 

If the founders of the US had wanted this country to be a theocracy based on Christianity (or any other religion) they would have said so, clearly in the Constitution. You would not have to dig and search for obscure references and try to infer what they might have meant. It would be right there in the Constitution, the law of the land.

If the bible was supposed to be in the laws, or if the 10 commandments was supposed to be in the laws, they would have written that. They would have written, "for more details, look in the bible" or "read the 10 commandments". If it was important to have bibles in all the schools, and they wanted that to be in the law, they would have written that.

The founders never put any of that into the laws of the US.  Instead, they wrote the bill of rights where the first thing they said was no religion in the government. No religious test. No established state religion. No religious discrimination. And they did not need any atheists telling them to do that.

They were not stupid men, although they were products of their time. They therefore got some things wrong (discrimination against women, and slavery, but the bible is okay with both of those). However, on the no religion in government thing, they were very clear. And very right.

And I became an atheist as a result of being raised in a strict fundamentalist religion that made no sense. I had never heard of this murdered woman you keep talking about.

FACT: Crime rates are lower in the less religious countries of the world. Like France, Japan, Denmark and Sweden.
FACT: Crime rates, divorce rates, poverty and teen pregnancy rates are lower in the less religious states in the US. Like Minnesota and Massachusetts. Compared to Arkansas and Texas.

Nobody is stopping anyone from praying in the US-- the state just can't make you do it.. More bible reading obviously does not make a society better--the US is way more religious than any other industrialized country. The US needs less praying, fewer guns and more rational thinking.

[ParkingPlaces]

Do you realize that only FIVE states required prayer in school? Only five. It was allowed in only 25 others. How does the elimination of mandatory prayer in five states a crime wave make? Do you have statistics that show crime to be a horrid problem in 20 states, somewhat of a problem in 25, and no problem at all in five?

No you don't. You have only that picture in your mind of an instant transformation from tranquility to Mr. Rogers violent neighborhood. Like with your premonitions, you have only what you interpret to be true, not what is actually true. Everything you know comes from christian propaganda, not facts. And you are excoriating us as the guilty party even as you ignore revelation after revelation from us.

And why is crime falling if we're still not praying. Not in every category, but in most of them. Why is that? Why is violent crime down? Why is robbery down? How can that be. We're still not praying.

Be sure you don't read the link I provided earlier in this thread that makes a case for lead in paint and gasoline poisoning our population. And especially don't read the part where the increase, and later decrease, in crime matches increases and decreases in lead levels. The last thing we would want you to have is valid information that you could take into consideration. That would hurt your head.

I say again. You want things to be simple. And you insist on being right. Neither is realistic. Its fine when you look at the world in ways that is right for you. But it is not fine when you look at the world and insist it be right for me as well.

I am not your enemy. Your insistence that I be, that all who are not just like you be, does not bode well for our future. I'm not talking about this web site. I'm talking about our country and the world. Because you are not the only one, and many places where such opposition exists have armed folks. Hating each other. And you and me and everyone else. And someday it is going to hurt.

Don't worry. I'll be among the first to go. I'm too nice a guy to ever shoot back.

[Anfauglir]

You believe this story - so you believe that your god will - somehow - ensure that bullets will not harm a person he particularly cares about.  So tell me, Wayne - why DIDN'T your god care about the people in the theatre?  Why DIDN'T he care about all those schoolchildren just a few weeks ago?

 

Their souls are with Him now.  It's not pleasant for us down here. My heart breaks for those family members.  If my premonition means anything at all it does mean that they were taken meaninglessly……

WHILE YOUR GOD SAT BY AND DID NOTHING.

THAT is the crucial point I take from your tale, Wayne.  That you are 100% clear that your god CAN and WILL deflect bullets, and who therefore chose NOT to intervene for the children.

You say its "my fault" for producing an environment where the killer was free to do what he can do.  That I chose not to act, and this led to the deaths.  Then your god is exactly as guilty as I am for their deaths - it likewise chose not to act, and so they died.

….. the inculcating of biblical morality in public that your precious atheism insists upon.  There is a consequence to over ruling biblical morality.  Atheism is the culprit.  You should be ashamed.

So you assert.

I claim, by contrast, that the fault lies in the failure of self-professed Christians to correctly follow the teachings of their god.  The millions upon millions who do not correctly practice the faith that god clearly laid out for them….you know, the way that YOU practice it.  God is angry at THEM, not at the athesists, and THAT is why all the bad things are happening….note that this also explains why "bad things" happen to "Christians" so much, and why so many atheists live rich and happy lives.

So that's MY assertion, Wayne, as to why all the bad stuff happened.  Can you give us one single shred of evidence as to why your chosen interpretation is more rational than mine?  Especially since, as I've pointed out, my explanation provides more answers than yours?

I mention in the introductions thread a dream I had that my leg was amputated and the opening was cauterised by a blowtorch.  That was a yawningly achingly unpleasant dream.  I did't know what to make of it, and I assumed that it was no good.  A few days later, I came upon this site. 

Interesting.  How exactly DID you "come upon" this site?  Are you in the slightest bit open to the suggestion that your random dream, rattling around in your subconscious, made you more open to spotting the word "amputee" for the next few days?

You see, Wayne, if an idea gets put into your red,  then you'll find that red will stay within your consciousred, and you'll find red you spot that red a lot more red than you red bered.

Bet you you'll see a lot more red cars today than you normally do.  Is that because I changed reality to make more red cars pass you?  Or because a thought in your head makes you more aware of concepts related to it?

And if you want to let it really bug you you can put yourself in that dream, because it is you I ended up talking to.  It is you that were meant to read my story.  I really can't help it its just what happens.

Doesn't bug me Wayne.  Your persistent dodging and refusal to address the meat of the questions you are asked means that you are doing an excellent job of driving me further from your god.  Is that the effect you wanted to produce in me?  Was that the effect your GOD wanted you to produce when he "sent you" to me?

[wheels5894]

Look, Wayne, you keep on insisting that the lack of prayer in schools brought about the school shooting despite the fact that you have been shown other ways of understanding it. So, please, now shown us how you worked your way to this conclusion. We have a shooting carried out by an apparently deranged killer. How can you come to the conclusion you have about this?

I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives. If you read my story I refer to the whole institutionalized animus against the founders faith and principles.  The rabid offense taken at the mention of christian principles has had its full effect over fifty years.  My premonition is like another 9/11 judgment that atheists can take the full blame for.

Thanks for the reply, but I still quite get how you have made the connection. What you call a premonition appears not to have included in it any details that might include shooting so it was clearly nothing that might have been helpful in avoid the incident. However....

Earlier in the thread you will have seen statistics showing that as a country become less religious crime tends to fall and violent crime in particular. Hence the incidence of violent crime in Europe -and especially the less religious countries like the UK, Norway, Sweden etc. Now this doesn't mean there are not the very rare incidents of shootings in these places but they are so rare that they can be easily remembered. The cause is usually a person with mental health problems who manages to get hold of a gun though, of course, in Noway recently it was a man with very extreme political tendencies. In France the most recent case was caused by a very extreme Islamic person.

Now, although in the USA official prayers are not said in schools - after all how many religions would insist on theirs being said so as to be fair? - the USA remains a very religious country. Just look at the results of opinion polls for this. Yet there are far more of these shooting incidents in the USA than anywhere else in the world. How on earth do you ignore all the other facts - the degree of religiosity of the population, the free availability of guns and the lack of affordable mental health care - and focus solely on prayers in school. What is your thinking that does this?

[Add Homonym]

Are we there, yet?

[wheels5894]

Are we there, yet?

I rather doubt it - though I think we have established, against Wayne's views that his so-called premonitions are just him looking back well after events and seeing connections.

[Anfauglir]

I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after. 

That's fine - just give us the ISBN of the textbook they are published in, or the issue number of the particular journal, if they aren't freely available on the web.  Easily done, you know.

If I showed you a graph that proved skyrocketing crime disease and divorce after Atheists got their way would that change your opinion? 

Absolutely.  The moment you show me a graph that proves causation between the two factors, then yes.  Of course, if all you are asserting is correlation, then no, of course not.  Because you may as well then say that it was Russia's agreement to dismantle its missiles in Cuba that led to the rises in bad stuff.

So please, please, go ahead.  SHOW us this graph that proves causation between those two things.  You know, like we have been asking you for several pages now.

Oh, just one more thing:

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this. 

Those kids died because an omnipresent god who specialises in stopping bullets elected to stand back and do nothing.  I'm not going to let you off the hook on this.

[pianodwarf]

I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum

"And this is my point:"

[pianodwarf]

I use MMOH like I do school prayer.  They are emblematic of a wide range of Atheists and their initiatives that have purposefully driven out the judeo christian restraints against... Killing in this most stark example.

I see no such restraint in scripture, at least not really.  True, there is "Thou shalt not kill", but on the other hand, scripture also prescribes the death penalty for just about everything except jaywalking.  And that's probably only because there were no traffic lights back then.

I wish I could show you the graphs here that show the rapid rise in crime, divorce, venereal disease and other factors after being stable prior to 62 skyrocketed in the years after.

You can't -- crime has actually been declining for the most part since then (homicide, for example, is currently at a forty-year low) -- but even if you could, it wouldn't matter.  Such a graph would show only correlation, not causation.

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this.

I'm not sure how much you follow this kind of thing in the news, so if I'm telling you something you already know, please excuse me.

Various freethought organizations across the United States put up various signs, billboards, and the like advertising their viewpoint.  (They're most prominent during the holiday season, but they do appear the rest of the year as well.)  They're routinely vandalized and stolen.  This past holiday season, of all the various signs that the Freedom From Religion Foundation put up, just under half were damaged or destroyed.  In one case, the vandalism was carried out under the observation of a television news crew; when the vandal was done destroying the sign, the news crew interviewed him on camera and broadcast the interview.  The FFRF contacted the police, who declined to take any action.  I have yet to hear of any Christian voicing any objection of any kind, let alone attempting to help in any way.

Conversely, in June of 2011, a couple of churches were vandalized by people who spray-painted freethought images and slogans all over them.  The freethought community, upon hearing of this, organized a fundraising drive and took up a collection to help the churches clean up the graffiti and repair the damage.  About $3,000 was raised in just the first day of the drive.

Don't try to claim that religion (Abrahamic or otherwise) has a monopoly on ethics or compassion.  It doesn't.  Not even close.

If you continue to deny that Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil, then you have decided to lie to yourself, and endanger even more children.

If the "Judeo Christian ethic restrains evil", then why are Christians disproportionately represented in our prison population?  Indeed, why are atheists only 0.2% of the prison population, even though we constitute approximately ten percent of the nation's population?

[Dante]

Those Kids died because of what you atheists foisted on the american public.  I'm not  going to let you off the hook on this. 

Those kids died because an omnipresent god who specialises in stopping bullets elected to stand back and do nothing.  I'm not going to let you off the hook on this.

This is the thing that so bothers me about the crap Wayne is spouting.

His god, if omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, should have the balls to unambigously make its presence known, if the secular movement is such a percieved slight. Instead, it relies on believers interpreting actions of men and nature as "god's will". The believers have to make all kinds of excuses as to why their god's presence is hidden, why its actions cannot be differentiated from natural or human-caused events.

And before Wayne starts on the free will argument, let me ask this; did those children at Sandy Hook have free will? Did the teachers? Obviously, according to Wayne, the shooter did not have any free will whatsoever, as he was all part of his god's omniscient plan to show all us heathens what happpens when we maintain a seperation of church and state.

So what gives, Wayne? Why can't your omnipotent god make a point without ending the lives of schoolchildren? Why did your god take away the free will of Lanza? And why do you suppose, since Lanza was an agent of your dark lord, that he would be a rational atheist?

[ParkingPlaces]

I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum

[/quote]

Is that how you chose which religion to believe? Based on YouTube statistics? I did. That's why I'm a Russian DashCamist. Here, watch some of these and join me. (warning: stupid, oft times gory and actually pretty bad. Just like religion. Don't actually watch these. I just wanted to demonstrate my point)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo

[WayneHarropson]

FWIW Wayne, I admire your persistence. I'm no closer to agreeing with you than I was before, but I certainly wouldn't have lasted as long as you have, were I the only atheist answering a bunch of Christians.

Thank you wright.

[wheels5894]

I'm talking about 475,000 separate youtube videos with Amazing Grace in their titles.  There are pages upon pages, reams upon reams, ad infinitum

Is that how you chose which religion to believe? Based on YouTube statistics? I did. That's why I'm a Russian DashCamist. Here, watch some of these and join me. (warning: stupid, oft times gory and actually pretty bad. Just like religion. Don't actually watch these. I just wanted to demonstrate my point)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russian+dash+cam+compilation&oq=russian+dash+&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l10.128.4724.0.8006.21.13.4.4.7.0.194.1222.4j9.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.E6NgwqwjfYo
[/quote]

Thanks for the links, PP. I think we ought to get this new religion going - by the look its more fun than most religions!

[WayneHarropson]

I have read through and intend to reply to some of your thoughtful remarks. 

During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

[WayneHarropson]

And again:
"The cultivation of the religious sentiment represses licentiousness . . . inspires respect for law and order, and gives strength to the whole social fabric. Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."

Daniel Webster

[wheels5894]

Another from Adams

Religion, charity, pure benevolence, and morals, mingled up with superstitious rites and ferocious cruelty, form in their combination institutions the most powerful and the most pernicious that have ever afflicted mankind.

journal, Nov. 22, 1831

[Anfauglir]

...the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior....

Founding Fathers kept slaves too, as sanctioned by the Bible, despite their protestations that "all men are created equal".  Ergo, we should all be allowed to keep slaves, yes?

You're right Wayne, it IS entertaining - almost everything you post gives me a good old belly laugh!

[Anfauglir]

Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens.

Wayne, why do you persist in insulting all the members here?

[wheels5894]

Of course, John Quincey Adams was a supporter for the abolition of slavery despite the bible's insistence that slavery was OK and even giving rules to those who own slaves.

no one has ever satisfactorily explained why the rules in the bible can be ignored - unless it was pressure of popular opinion of those who religion wasn't so strong. A quaker led the war against slavery in the UK  for example.

[jaimehlers]

During this brief intermission may I entertain you with a statement by John Quincy Adams, who said:

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

Assuming he actually said that, I don't think that it has any real relevance.  For one thing, the Declaration was on July 4; Christmas is celebrated on December 25.  My brother, who's birthday is December 19, has a closer temporal link than the Declaration of Independence.  For another, while the Declaration attributes the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to an unnamed "Creator", and states that governments are instituted to secure those rights, it's more than a stretch to claim that these are a reference to Christianity, or that somehow human government is dependent on Christianity.  For one thing, governments existed before Christianity ever did; before Judaism ever did, for that matter.  For another, you could just as easily substitute some other religion instead of Christianity for this "Creator" and have it be just as true - making it an effectively meaningless statement, since it can mean anything.

[ParkingPlaces]

Adams also said, in a letter to Jefferson:

“They all believe that great Principle which has produced this boundless universe, Newton’s universe and Hershell’s universe, came down to this little ball, to be spit upon by Jews. And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.”

Isn't quote mining fun!

[ParkingPlaces]

And Jefferson said this (My bold):

“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[wheels5894]

James Madison

Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.
James Madison, letter to Jacob de la Motta, August 1820

So Madison wasn't looking for a Christian foundation of the USA

[screwtape]

I'll only add here that I use the removal of prayer as one example of the atheist initiatives.

Wayne,

I've corrected you on this already.  Most of the most influential school prayer suits[1] have been brought by religious minorities - jews, jehovah's witnesses, unitarians, and catholics.  Please stop repeating this lie.

1.	ie, the supreme court cases that established the precedence

[wheels5894]

Oh, and John Adams - speaking rather, I think of something other than a Christian god

It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshiping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.
John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776