Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 54001 times)

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Offline shnozzola

Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #319 on: January 13, 2013, 07:03:42 PM »
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion.  Mr. Harropson, don't you realize how much the persecution  Europeans put up with led to the freedoms the U.S. form of government is based on. It is one of the most important advances in world government that a society's  leaders learned not to choose and force a type of belief on it's people.

Now, having said that, the following excellent article shows how different states were making different rules that did not always support the idea of religious tolerance.  I consider the well respected Smithsonian Magazine a fairly impartial look at history.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Americas-True-History-of-Religious-Tolerance.html?c=y&page=3

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Madison wanted Jefferson’s view to become the law of the land when he went to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. And as framed in Philadelphia that year, the U.S. Constitution clearly stated in Article VI that federal elective and appointed officials “shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution, but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

This passage—along with the facts that the Constitution does not mention God or a deity (except for a pro forma “year of our Lord” date) and that its very first amendment forbids Congress from making laws that would infringe of the free exercise of religion—attests to the founders’ resolve that America be a secular republic. The men who fought the Revolution may have thanked Providence and attended church regularly—or not. But they also fought a war against a country in which the head of state was the head of the church. Knowing well the history of religious warfare that led to America’s settlement, they clearly understood both the dangers of that system and of sectarian conflict.
Let me know how the article reads to you.  I apologize if I am repeating some of these statements that others have included. My hope is that you look at the differences in religious and non religious belief as part of the patch work of life that is to be celebrated and studied by everyone.  Maybe I'm an idealist, Wayne, but not having the information on all the different beliefs of men keeps me from wanting to condemn any beliefs.
 edit spelling
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 07:11:52 PM by shnozzola »
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #320 on: January 13, 2013, 08:55:12 PM »
I hope you're not saying the Islam isn't a lie - it looks rather like the 'prophet' and his associates made the whole lot up to get a group together so as to get political power. After they won power, it didn't take long to make it look religious though!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html

This article raises the possibility that Mohammed was a fiction, like Jesus, and that the Quran is a bunch of oral traditions stitched together, and then attributed to someone, by other books. This explains its haphazard construction.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #321 on: January 13, 2013, 09:15:22 PM »
Wayne, it seems that no amount of rational, intelligent reasoning will sway you from your conviction that your experiences are anything but supernatural. You refuse to even acknowledge that coincidences, even some that are incredibly unlikely (of which none of yours are), do happen.

Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.  They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.  I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.  I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   

The bible says that God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking.  Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all.  Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.  I'm not sure if I worded that as well as I could have but if you saw George Clooney's character in O Brother Where Art Thou, In it he is told by a blind black guy early in the film that he would see marvelous things, one of them would be a cow on the roof of some kind of shed.  Of course, it came true later in the film during a flood just as the old seer stated, but Clooney continues a conversation while the cow passes his view with eyes wide open and simply dismisses what his eyes see because it didn't fit his rational template.  A be liver would likely blurt out, hey look, there's the cow just like the seer said!  But Clooney drones on with his rationalist soliloquy as if to talk himself out of what obviously happened.   A perfect example of it is below and I quote:

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1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.
2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

and then..

Quote
a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.
b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.
Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.


That is just how George Glazed over seeing the cow on the roof.  Maybe that's why I liked the movie so much because it did so much to illustrate the kind of argument we have here, and it did it with humor that made the rationalist look silly.  For a while it was the only DVD I owned.



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You have said several times that the one true gospel should be taught throughout the land, especially in schools, but Wayne, you are a Mormon! You must be aware that the vast majority of Christians view your religion as little more than a cult. There is no way most Christians would agree that the Mormon faith should be taught in schools. So what one true gospel are you talking about?

Ouch, you got me there didn't you.  I never blame people for calling out that seeming contradiction because it might be the grandest contradiction in my life.  I am a born again Christian in the genere of the Billy Graham variety that has chosen to worship our Savior Jesus Christ among Mormons.  Very weird, I know. I have gotten away with it so far but not because I "believe all the doctrine" but more because I trust that the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine. Which He can.  In God's great mystery that has presented itself in Christianity there is much division.  If I understand the wisdom of God and the founders there is within all those divisions a deep abiding wisdom that defies man's rational preferences.  The Mormons start out with a concept that there must be one true church, and darned if it isn't the one set up by Joseph Smith.  The success of the church to me reinforces a remarkable mini tower of babel wisdom of God that confuses the denominations in order to disperse faith in God across (in this case) the plains, without disturbing the simple "Jesus loves me this I know" core concept, which is the level at which I personally operate.  (I teach seven year olds).

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You are certain that god is unhappy about the '62 ruling that banished school-sanctioned prayer, which is why he allows (or even causes) children to be blown away in schools and theaters today. How petty is this deity, and why would you worship such a monster?

The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 09:17:17 PM by WayneHarropson »
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #322 on: January 13, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion. 

You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #323 on: January 13, 2013, 09:40:56 PM »
Quote

The text states very plainly that the USA is not based upon Christianity.  To suggest otherwise means that they were being deceptive when they wrote it.  That's not a good foundation for "neighborliness" to the world.

I'll respond with a little of what I know about WWII history.  If I remember right, Douglas MacArthur after accepting Japan's unconditional surrender ordered Christian Missionaries funded by the US Government (Or maybe the authority of the Allies) into Japan to begin evangelizing and civilizing the occupied.  Who gave him permission to do that?  I'd be outraged if I were a self respecting Atheist!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 09:52:24 PM by WayneHarropson »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
Have Wayne Committed, Win a Prize!  (V

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #324 on: January 13, 2013, 10:40:40 PM »
You would do well to acknowledge one simple over riding concept in all of this, one that should help direct you to the most profound conclusion, that wonderful freedom was articulated and put into the founding documents by Christians.  Need I say more?

Yeah. You need to explain why Jefferson described the Bible as mostly a dunghill, and why Thomas Paine was victimised for being an atheist. Also, Washington's church attendance recorded in his own diary, and the attestation of one of his slaves, that he spent most of the time boozing and playing card games.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 10:43:14 PM by Add Homonym »
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #325 on: January 13, 2013, 10:50:15 PM »
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #326 on: January 13, 2013, 11:07:36 PM »
No more long essays for Wayne. All he is capable of is tiny responses, at best. And he ignored me. Now I know how screwtape feels

Two can play the terse game.

Besides, I'm easier to quote correctly that way.

So here is my short input this time.

Well, Wayne, how are you going to feel when snake-handling pentecostals take over and mandate, besides prayer, free roaming rattlesnakes in every classroom?

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #327 on: January 14, 2013, 12:00:55 AM »
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.

What are the distinguishing characteristics of a coincidence that happens without the interference of a deity versus one with the intervention of a deity?  Is it simply whether or not it fits with your personal opinion of what God might or might not do?  That would be rather arbitrary if it were the case, and anyone with a belief in any sort of God is capable of saying the exact same thing about their coincidences.     

They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.
A supernatural event is something that could not be explained in any other way except with the intervention of God.  I am not going out on a limb at all here by saying no, nothing like that has ever happened to you.

And without interviewing millions of people, how do you know that 'supernatural' (uncommon) things happen to you more than they happen to other people?  You're just asserting it as if you have some sort of evidence when you know full well that you don't.  I could assert that twice as many uncommon things happen to me than happen to you, and what are you going to say about it? No they don't?  And I'll say, yes they do, and won't that be a fun, childish exchange.  You can't get away with saying stupid stuff like this on this board.  It doesn't fly.  You have to back up what you say. 

I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.

We're laughing right along at you with you.  You're wrong about all of them.  Sorry.  You're just naive, gullible and incredibly credulous. 

I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   
You keep going back to that story (which I painfully read through) but I'd like to point something out to you and it has to do with the word 'gas' that you seem so hung up on.  The term 'gas', as used in a car is actually short for 'gasoline'.  It's a petroleum derived liquid that is useful in internal combustion engines.  A 'gas leak' in a movie theater is not the same 'gas' as you use in your car.  Natural gas is mostly methane, carbon dioxide, etc.   And the 'gas' that was used by the guy in the Batman movie was another completely different thing that's actually known as tear gas (chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile).  You somehow have taken the word 'gas' and the many ways it's used in the English language and thought 'huh, look at those three instances where 'gas' was involved' and treated it as if it's something special.  That is such an idiotic thing to do.  Just because the words gasoline, methane, and chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile are shortened or renamed in the English language to the word 'gas', that doesn't mean anything.  Try retelling your little story using the proper words for those 3 completely different substances and see if it still feels like it's more than a coincidence. Try saying the killer in the movie theater released chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, that your fuel pump was leaking a petroleum based fluid, and that that a pipe in the movie theater was venting dangerous amounts of methane and relating them then.  It's ridiculous.  It's beyond that actually.  It's borderline mentally retarded.  There is no connection, and the very notion that you were responsible for the gas leak (in the letter you sent to the PD) had me laughing out loud. 

Have you seen the first Batman movie since then?  Has Dana?  It's pretty good and I didn't kill anyone after I saw it.  Nor did anyone I know.  Go figure.  You should rent it and see if it drives you to go on a killing spree.  I think it more likely you'd just shrug and move on with your day when it was over. 

The bible says that God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking. 
You're just asserting stupid stuff here Wayne.  I could easily say that I get 10 times more things I seek than you do. 

Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all. 
Prove that something supernatural happened to you Wayne.  Because until you can, not one supernatural thing has ever happened to you.  Uncommon things happen to everyone.  In an 80 year lifespan, uncommon things are going to happen to everyone.  To put that into perspective, that's 42 million or so minutes, which means that if something only has a 1 in a million chance of happening, its likely to happen 42 times in your life.  Until you can prove that something was supernatural, then it's nothing more than your credulity.   

Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.
Actually, that's completely wrong.  Only a rock solid appreciation for the natural world allows someone to distinguish whether or not something was supernatural.  If you don't understand, or are ignorant of the natural world, then you might find yourself seeing many natural things as supernatural things.  It is a lack of understanding of the natural world (ignorance) that leaves you with the limited ability to discern the natural from the supernatural.     

And I am also going to say that you, starting with your belief in a God that somehow has chosen you above others, makes your mind more receptive to the things that confirm, rather than discredit your position.  So you see lots of things as supernatural when they are, after all, not supernatural at all.  It's called confirmation bias, and you reek of it.   

(I teach seven year olds).

The scariest thing you've said so far, bar none, is this.   

The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.

Actually, whether or not God is real, we'd still be talking Wayne.  Whether God exists, or whether you erroneously believe God exists, we'd still be talking.  All it takes is the belief.  Just like the people who believe in other gods that you don't think are real have come here and spoken to us.  You don't know it, but your God is as real as theirs is.  Funny thing is, they didn't know their gods were fake either. 

But let me ask you something...  Can kids pray in school?  Can teachers pray in school?  Are bibles allowed in school?  Yes to all 3 Wayne.  Yes to all 3.  But noooo, you don't see those things, do you.  You only see that school mandated prayer was taken away and you get your pants all in a bunch.  You can't force your religious nonsense on everyone and that's got you mad.  Well get used to it.  Your kind has been torturing, maiming, and killing people who don't believe your fairy tale for a few thousand years now and we're done taking your shit. 

And you didn't answer his question.  You dodged it.  You worship a God that stands by and does nothing when children die.  Imagine it Wayne.  God is watching as the mad man goes rampaging through the school and does nothing while kid after kid is shot down.  He stands by with folded arms as blood splatters on the floor.  He doesn't help.  Doesn't lift a finger.  Doesn't bother to jam the trigger mechanism after the first few kids go down.  Nooo, he wants more kids dead because OTHER PEOPLE decided that religion in schools should not be mandated (which is absolutely, 100% constitutionally correct BTW).  What sort of God is that Wayne?  Seriously, that's fucked up.  You worship that God and you feel good about it?  What is wrong with you?  Why would anyone want to worship that?  If God can make gas leak in a movie theater due to your indecisive nature, the least he could do is jam a trigger mechanism in an automatic weapon.  You don't think anyone in that building was praying for that? 

If God is as unhappy as you say he is, why does he not take it out on the people who made him angry?  Why take it out on the kids?  Why send a completely ambiguous message that nobody except a few whack jobs like yourself can see?  The event will do nothing to get prayer back in school.  Your position doesn't make any sense at all.  It's such a stupid thought.  You're just not an intelligent person if you think this way.  You're just not. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #328 on: January 14, 2013, 12:02:39 AM »
I will promptly respond to anyone who can pass this simple test.  What did a gas pump in my truck have to do with the story I wrote?

A guy who was in a 007 movie is on a flight with you and your phone comes up, an your phone number ends with 0070, and you are astonished.

I think I answered this elsewhere.  There are many more humdrum meaningless coincidences than there are of the supernatural.

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This is all a case of not understanding statistical probabilities and the absolute inevitability of such similarities occurring. There are only ten possible numbers. An author chose one combination, your phone provider chose another, and they happened to match under a specific set of circumstances, and instead of being simply bemused, you think that it is a god talking to you. Hey, England was bombed by terrorists on July 7, 2005. Lets see. James Bond was a British spy. O7/07. Not quite the same, but that must have been what god was talking about and you missed it.


I have and imperfect but healthy filter to keep from letting my mind attribute too much to the meaningless.

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There are not an infinite number of single digit numbers. There are not an infinite number of fiction characters. There are not an infinite number of possible human interactions. There are not an infinite number of ways to heat a theatre or power a vehicle. There are not an infinite number of ways for cows to cross the road and nor an infinite number of ways for your headlights to fail (by the way, you don't have much luck with vehicles. Maybe that's god telling you not to drive).


I have filtered out all the unreasonable associations here.  By the way, I am my own mechanic, I have a passion for auto repair, I love to drive, and the supernatural things that God blesses me with enhance that pleasure like you wouldn't believe.  Now if it were Satan affecting the car's and driving, I might come to the conclusion that I shouldn't drive.  I do appreciate your comprehensive analysis though.

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You are simplifying the social and political problems in our country, in that you are proclaiming that if we still had prayer in schools, by golly we would all be living just like they did in that documentary called "Leave it to Beaver". You want all to be simple because then your solutions can be simple. And you fail to understand that simple answers don't exist because simple problems don't either.

Just because the problems are complex doesn't mean all simple answers are irrelevant.  Not believing in god and not fearing eternal judgement increases the number and frequency of killings.  That's a simple statement that affects a world of complications. See?

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Back in the  30's the St. Valentines massacre, where mobsters shot some other mobsters, took place in a theatre. I assume there were times when some mobsters killed other mobsters with a baseball bat. Theatre. Bats. Man. Looks like your parents missed the signs too, and we were still able to pray.Your god has been trying to tell us for a long time, I guess. He saw it coming.

You are wearing yourself out here.

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I remember reading a story in Readers Digest in the early 60's. It seems that a high school kid walked into a military surplus store with a buddy and the first thing he noticed is that there was a big pile of packed parachutes for sale. "Cool", he thought. His father had been a paratrooper, and hence he was very interested to see the kind of equipment his father had used during the war. He walked up to the pile of parachutes, picked the first one up, looked first at the front of it and then turned it around. There, written in ink, was his fathers name. It was his dad's parachute. This, if Readers Digest is to be trusted, is a true story.

I suppose if I were you I'd write and complain to readers Digest, but truth is, I believe the account and would have thought it a wonderful story.  For me it is anything but surprising, because I know how these things work.  It is quite wonderful actually.

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We haven't had anybody shoot up a jump school or blow up a mall wearing puffy white nylon pants. It was just a coincidence. And that is what you experienced. However, for whatever reason, you have decided to attach significance to the story, so much so that you feel the need to occasionally take flak from others over the incidents. You seem unable to understand that a movie franchise that has made almost 4 billion dollars over the last quarter century is more likely to be involved in multiple incidents than, say, Groundhog Day, which was in and out of the theaters in just a few months. You want to attach importance to gas, as in gas, being similar enough to gas, as in petrol, to be the same thing to you. There aren't that many ages kids can be, but six seems like a magic number to you.

You make it so complicated.  That's so exhausting.

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Its bad enough that we don't agree on religion or politics ( I read some of your blog as well). But we may as well be speaking two totally different languages if you are going to insist that obtuse events in your life in 1989 actually able to portend events in 2012. And that the connection is perfectly clear to you. If only in hindsight.

Fascinating isn't it?
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You did not go to the authorities in 1990 and warn them about an impending slaughter. And if you had, even the most ardent and christian cops among them would have laughed you out of the building.


See how lucky I am?  I had no idea it had anything to do with Aurora, at the time.


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To me, the discussion you are having with others about history are fairly unimportant, because as long as you are going to take the stance that your god was speaking to you via leaks and headlights, I have a heck of a time giving you credibility in any other area. Sorry, but I just can't do it.
You have a lot of company, but I do appreciate your concern.  You know that 007 thing. Was that  bazaar or what?  Something that I didn't mention in the story that I found out later I thought was absolutely fascinating.  That Richard Kyle guy turned out to be a very dedicated Christian.  He was featured on 700 club because through faith in Jesus Christ he was able to stop a destructive drinking habit, and tuned down beer commercial jobs at considerable expense to himself in order to remain a good example to others with drinking problems.  Discovering after the fact that the actor God put on that small plane with me, to have some fun with me, had a deep devotion for Jesus Christ like I do made me realise that God was knocking two of his own devotees heads together for no other reason than that he could. It answered to the observation I had that though the man has a gnarly look and intimidating stature there was a remarkable kindness in his eyes, that was evidence of his faith in God. So God assigned me the 0070 phone number in advance because he could, shut down the engine in my 77 Buick Regal with the odometer at 000,000.7, later, just because he could.  I'm hopeless Parking Places... you may as well give up trying.  But I love you for it.
How's my quoting quotient?

I don't know which I should give up on first. Your premonitions or your quoting  :D
Fixed it for you. Please note that you have a "preview" button next to the "Save" button. Use it and see (towards the top of the page above the text window) what your post is going to look like before you post. Technically speaking, it would be hard to mess up worse than you did on this one.
PP
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 02:46:43 AM by ParkingPlaces »
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #329 on: January 14, 2013, 12:05:45 AM »
No more long essays for Wayne. All he is capable of is tiny responses, at best. And he ignored me. Now I know how screwtape feels

Two can play the terse game.

Besides, I'm easier to quote correctly that way.

So here is my short input this time.

Well, Wayne, how are you going to feel when snake-handling pentecostals take over and mandate, besides prayer, free roaming rattlesnakes in every classroom?

I was so busy answering each of your questions that I neglected to respond to this in a timely manner.

I like all of you guys, I just have a limited capacity
God bless.
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #330 on: January 14, 2013, 01:08:46 AM »
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.

What are the distinguishing characteristics of a coincidence that happens without the interference of a deity versus one with the intervention of a deity?  Is it simply whether or not it fits with your personal opinion of what God might or might not do?  That would be rather arbitrary if it were the case, and anyone with a belief in any sort of God is capable of saying the exact same thing about their coincidences.

I'd be flattering myself beyond my capacity to attempt an answer this.
I'm not being dismissive. I'm just not ready to speak for others capacity.  I don't think I'm that special, just that I beg a lot.  (pray)   

They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.
A supernatural event is something that could not be explained in any other way except with the intervention of God.  I am not going out on a limb at all here by saying no, nothing like that has ever happened to you.

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And without interviewing millions of people, how do you know that 'supernatural' (uncommon) things happen to you more than they happen to other people?

My claims of unusual frequency for me are that I'm not surrounded by many people who have shown me their list of incidences.  Nothing scientific in my claim, it is a great queston though.

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You're just asserting it as if you have some sort of evidence when you know full well that you don't.  I could assert that twice as many uncommon things happen to me than happen to you, and what are you going to say about it? No they don't?  And I'll say, yes they do, and won't that be a fun, childish exchange.  You can't get away with saying stupid stuff like this on this board.  It doesn't fly.  You have to back up what you say.
 
I get your point.  I can only assure you that if I was knowingly telling a lie that my nose would drop off, or grow or whatever.  I'm not kidding about any of it, and I can't prove it either.  It is a testimony that you will just have to make with what you will.  Thanks for entertaining it as far as you have.

I'm not afraid to be wrong about them either, I just laugh at myself.

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We're laughing right along at you with you.  You're wrong about all of them.  Sorry.  You're just naive, gullible and incredibly credulous. 


I express my desire for honesty and you need to insult it.  That's ok.

I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   
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You keep going back to that story (which I painfully read through) but I'd like to point something out to you and it has to do with the word 'gas' that you seem so hung up on.  The term 'gas', as used in a car is actually short for 'gasoline'.  It's a petroleum derived liquid that is useful in internal combustion engines.  A 'gas leak' in a movie theater is not the same 'gas' as you use in your car.  Natural gas is mostly methane, carbon dioxide, etc.   And the 'gas' that was used by the guy in the Batman movie was another completely different thing that's actually known as tear gas (chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile).  You somehow have taken the word 'gas' and the many ways it's used in the English language and thought 'huh, look at those three instances where 'gas' was involved' and treated it as if it's something special.  That is such an idiomatic thing to do.  Just because the words gasoline, methane, and chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile are shortened or renamed in the English language to the word 'gas', that doesn't mean anything.  Try retelling your little story using the proper words for those 3 completely different substances and see if it still feels like it's more than a coincidence. Try saying the killer in the movie theater released chlorobenzylidenemalononitrile, that your fuel pump was leaking a petroleum based fluid, and that that a pipe in the movie theater was venting dangerous amounts of methane and relating them then.  It's ridiculous.  It's beyond that actually.  It's borderline mentally retarded.  There is no connection, and the very notion that you were responsible for the gas leak (in the letter you sent to the PD) had me laughing out loud.


I get your point about the gas.  The only thing you are missing is that if I interpreted the message accurately as God meant it for me to be interpreted because of God's specific way of communicating to me,  God may just be laughing at you right now.   

If you know bible stories, you know that miracles can be abstact.. donkeys talking bushes burning, birds feeding a man, manna from heaven, flaming tongues of fire.  It's all weird stuff.  Abstract, but to those to whom the message is meant, meaningful, and if I may say worthy of fully documenting for further scrutiny and edification.  Thanks for helping me with it.

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Have you seen the first Batman movie since then?  Has Dana?  It's pretty good and I didn't kill anyone after I saw it.  Nor did anyone I know.  Go figure.  You should rent it and see if it drives you to go on a killing spree.  I think it more likely you'd just shrug and move on with your day when it was over.
 
Maybe.  Critics say they are dark and tend to give the villain more attention than the good guy, and the good guy is dark in his own right.  Think about that.  Maybe God thinks that's a bad combination, dark heroes fighting dark villians.  Try thinking like god and you may find the over all message is one that needs to be gassed.

The bible says that God is the re-warder of those that diligently seek him and I attribute the higher than average frequency that things happen to me to my seeking. 
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You're just asserting stupid stuff here Wayne.  I could easily say that I get 10 times more things I seek than you do. 


Go ahead. Maybe you do.  Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here.  The re-warder thing is a bible verse, if God was lying about it take it up with him.

Under this standard it is understandable that those who don't seek god will experience the supernatural less, if at all. 
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Prove that something supernatural happened to you Wayne.
 

You ask what I cannot provide beyond what you have already read.  If you don't see anything extraordinary in what I say happened, leave it at that.  I'm doing my best, and I'll try harder, if I can think of how.  I have a bunch of stories like this.  I think that they are worth writing, because I'm not writing fiction, I'm reporting incidences.  i hope you can forgive my my fascination for it all.

Your atheist preconception that requires you to dismiss all accounts of the supernatural leaves you with exactly no ability to recognise it if it did occur.
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Actually, that's completely wrong.  Only a rock solid appreciation for the natural world allows someone to distinguish whether or not something was supernatural.  If you don't understand, or are ignorant of the natural world, then you might find yourself seeing many natural things as supernatural things.  It is a lack of understanding of the natural world (ignorance) that leaves you with the limited ability to discern the natural from the supernatural.     


George Washington during the french and Indian war was up against an Indian commander that ordered all his men to single out washington to shoot because he was the leader.  During the battle he had two horses shot from under him, and after the battle he wrote to his wife that there were four bullet holes in his coat, but not a scratch on him.  Years later during peace he returned on a diplomatic mission to the area and that Chief traveled a considerable distance to meet washington having heard he would be there.  The Chief told Washington that he just had to meet the man that could not die in battle.  He told the general that he had ordered his men to all shoot at him and that he shot at him seventeen different times.  You are going to ask me to prove this story is true, I just know it. I can't.  But I find it profoundly believable not because I'm gullible, but because I know the God that is able to protect.  It's the God that stopped me short of a slaughter of cows on the road.  You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury, and so there  is nothing to report. The Indian, Washington, and I might beg to differ.

I hope my responses so far have helped.  the rest of your post was pretty angry.  I'm not dismissing it, but I'll leave it for now.
Thank you for the time you spent.
Wayne
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #331 on: January 14, 2013, 01:32:33 AM »
I'll respond with a little of what I know about WWII history.  If I remember right, Douglas MacArthur after accepting Japan's unconditional surrender ordered Christian Missionaries funded by the US Government (Or maybe the authority of the Allies) into Japan to begin evangelizing and civilizing the occupied.  Who gave him permission to do that?  I'd be outraged if I were a self respecting Atheist!

Is it just me, or is Wayne expecting us to be shocked, or otherwise angry at these "revelations" he's making?

By the way, only 1% of the population in Japan are christains.  The rest are either non-religious, or a mix of shintoism and buddhism.

For something that (he's insinuating) helped to reform and modernize Japan, it sure had little staying power, eh?   :P
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #332 on: January 14, 2013, 01:40:45 AM »
Not true.  Coincidences happen as you have described that have no connection to supernatural intervention.  They happen to everybody, including me, and one thing I will admit here is that because of the unusual frequency that supernatural things happen to me there will be cases that I will likely misinterpret one or more with meaning that absolutely is not related.

How do you determine when you've made a misinterpretation?

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I was on my way to disassociate and degrade any connection with my old story, but then the fuel pump gas leak, for me, prevented it.  For you it meant absolutely nothing.  Not worth mentioning.  Perfectly normal.  Happens ever moment of every day.   

I never said fuel leaks happen every moment of every day, I said they are not uncommon. Considering how often your stories mention car troubles, it seems such malfunctions are particularly common for you. Obviously, this whole '89 Batman prophecy thing has been at the forefront of your mind since the Aurora shooting, so anything that could possibly be interpreted as supporting your conclusion will be seen as such. As Anfauglir touched on earlier, the real question is how often did you research/reflect on/discuss/consider the Batman story since the Aurora shooting, and what were the chances that some other incident involving gas (especially given your all-encompassing natural gas=tear gas=gasoline loosey goosey interpretation of the word) would occur in that time. I would say the chances were quite high. Think about it. Just after sharing your story here at WWGHA you could have gotten onto an elevator and had the person next to you cut a giant fart and that would be as much a confirmation to you as your fuel leak was. And it would be an even better indication of god's sense of humor, right?

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George Clooney's character in O Brother Where Art Thou, In it he is told by a blind black guy early in the film that he would see marvelous things, one of them would be a cow on the roof of some kind of shed.  Of course, it came true later in the film during a flood just as the old seer stated, but Clooney continues a conversation while the cow passes his view with eyes wide open and simply dismisses what his eyes see because it didn't fit his rational template.  A be liver would likely blurt out, hey look, there's the cow just like the seer said!  But Clooney drones on with his rationalist soliloquy as if to talk himself out of what obviously happened.   A perfect example of it is below and I quote:

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1. A gas leak causes your local theater to close, thereby preventing your daughter from seeing the '89 Batman filma.
2. 23 years later, in a different theater, a different Batman film is interrupted by a madman who releases tear gas and shoots up the place, killing 12 peopleb.
3. After talking to your city fire inspector about the '89 gas leak, the fuel pump in your truck malfunctions and leaks fuelc.

and then..

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a: Gas leaks are not uncommon in structures that utilize natural gas.
b: A madman shooting up a theater is an extremely uncommon occurrence.
c: Fuel leaks in vehicles that have internal combustion engines are very common.
Two of the three incidents in your story are fairly commonplace, while one is not. The only incidents that affected you personally were the two common ones. It is you and you alone who connects the two common occurrences with the uncommon one.


That is just how George Glazed over seeing the cow on the roof.  Maybe that's why I liked the movie so much because it did so much to illustrate the kind of argument we have here, and it did it with humor that made the rationalist look silly.

I have read every word of your Batman story. I have even corrected a few folks here who made some mistaken assumptions about the story. There is no cow on a roof[1] in it. You have come to the definitive conclusion based on a few very minor similarities that your experiences are supernaturally connected to another event that had literally no direct effect on your life whatsoever. Don't come back here accusing me of not seeing the cow, show me the cow, Wayne[2]! I promise you it is nowhere near as obvious as you think it is.

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Ouch, you got me there didn't you.  I never blame people for calling out that seeming contradiction because it might be the grandest contradiction in my life.  I am a born again Christian in the genere of the Billy Graham variety that has chosen to worship our Savior Jesus Christ among Mormons.  Very weird, I know. I have gotten away with it so far but not because I "believe all the doctrine" but more because I trust that the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine. Which He can.  In God's great mystery that has presented itself in Christianity there is much division.  If I understand the wisdom of God and the founders there is within all those divisions a deep abiding wisdom that defies man's rational preferences.  The Mormons start out with a concept that there must be one true church, and darned if it isn't the one set up by Joseph Smith.  The success of the church to me reinforces a remarkable mini tower of babel wisdom of God that confuses the denominations in order to disperse faith in God across (in this case) the plains, without disturbing the simple "Jesus loves me this I know" core concept, which is the level at which I personally operate.  (I teach seven year olds).

That is the longest non-answer to a question I've seen yet. What the bejeebus are you talking about, Wayne?!! :? Can you just answer what exactly it is you consider to be the One True GospelTM?

And BTW, if the spirit of Christ can be found anywhere regardless of doctrine, it follows that he can still be found in the very schools you say won't allow him in.

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The banned prayer read something like this: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country,”  until you selfish and rude people came in and said:  "we don't like god and we are offended that you pray".  We want you to stop!"      I'm certain He's not happy, or we wouldn't be talking would we.

Jeff already stole my thunder on this one, but it is such a strong indicator of your faulty rationale that I had to reiterate. In your view the mere fact that we are having this discussion proves that god exists and he is angry at atheists. But the only thing proven by it is that you believe in a god, and you believe he is angry. Well, it also proves that you possess enough self-righteous rudeness to join an atheist website for the express purpose of telling us that we are the cause of everything wrong in the world. Myopic much?
 1. I am speaking figuratively, of course
 2. that is possibly the weirdest thing I've ever typed
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Offline Willie

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #333 on: January 14, 2013, 02:10:03 AM »
With all this talk of gas leaks, schools, and children dying, I'm a little surprised that no one has yet mentioned (unless I missed it, though I did scan through the thread to try to avoid duplication) that the most deadly school disaster in U.S. History happened in 1937, well before the school prayer ruling.

On March 18, 1937 the New London School in New London Texas was destroyed by a huge explosion caused by a gas leak. More than 295 died, and more than 300 were injured, many seriously. A large majority of the victims were children in fifth through 11th grades. Most of the adult victims were teachers.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion
http://www.newlondonschool.org/

Offline William

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #334 on: January 14, 2013, 02:38:15 AM »
 :o Willie thanks for that - really puts it in perspective.

God really seems to love letting off gas before big trouble  :)  He even used it to kill countless quails to feed his people just before he got the shits with them and gave them the plague:

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Numbers 11:31 And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
 
32 And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
 
33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #335 on: January 14, 2013, 04:44:50 AM »
George Washington.....(glurge).

You are going to ask me to prove this story is true, I just know it. I can't.  ..... You may decide that it is entirely natural for a man to have four bullet holes in his coat with no injury....

Wayne, are you REALLY this disingenuous?  I've bolded the bit that - frankly - disgusts me about your responses.  You present a story that you admit you have NO way of proving - but sarcastically denigrate us for believing bullet holes "just happen"?  Sorry Wayne, it doesn't work like that - we have NO need to try and explain away a fantastic story about GW that you confess you have zero evidence for.

But HERE's an interesting thing, Wayne.  You believe this story - so you believe that your god will - somehow - ensure that bullets will not harm a person he particularly cares about.  So tell me, Wayne - why DIDN'T your god care about the people in the theatre?  Why DIDN'T he care about all those schoolchildren just a few weeks ago?

Your tale of GW makes it quite specific that your god can and will intervene in the world, and - quite specifically - stop bullets.  So if we DO accept your glurge here as true, Wayne, we have to ask searching and important questions about a god who will intervene in some cases, but remain resolutely absent in others.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #336 on: January 14, 2013, 05:54:48 AM »
I don't know what documentation there is for the GW incident but it sounds a fine example of a folk tale - probably starting from something minor and growing in the telling. I rather think that is exactly what we have with the stories about Jesus - whatever start5ed the story it grew in the telling. One only has to read Mark's account of something and then Matthew's with lots of added 'detail'.

Given the unlikelihood of the GW story being true, one would want something fair serious in the way of evidence - after all, who believes the statements in the beginning of the book of Mormon?

I say, no evidence means no reality.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #337 on: January 14, 2013, 07:29:17 AM »
Critics say they are dark and tend to give the villain more attention than the good guy, and the good guy is dark in his own right.  Think about that.  Maybe God thinks that's a bad combination, dark heroes fighting dark villians.

Quite right, Wayne.  That's why in the Bible we never see Yahweh do anything that might be described as "dark".....

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #338 on: January 14, 2013, 10:29:01 AM »
Wayne

Another relatively short response, to make it easier for you:

As per your book, God created the world, made a paradise, created a couple of inhabitants, and it didn't work out.

A few thousand years later he gets so pissed at how bad things are, he does the Noah thing. That didn't work out.

So a few thousand years later, he sends the kid. It helps some, but overall, it didn't work out.

Then in 1962 his chosen country bans prayer, and in a fit of desperation, a mere 27 years later he gives you a premonition. You end up missing the obvious references and as a resul, in 2012t he had to allow the death of a six year old girl and others in another theatre. The bullets that avoided George Washington were did not,in this case, miss the child. In other words, it didn't work out.

Omniscient beings should have seen this coming. Omnipotent beings should have a wider range of choices. This dude, if he exists, can't seem to do anything right. And you're still impressed?

P.S. In Vietnam, an average of 87,000 bullets were fired per enemy casualty. Today, in the middle east, an average of 250,000 bullets per casualty is being reported. And every war is full of stories of close calls, where people have bullet holes in their clothing without suffering injury. Again, even if the Washington story is true in terms of effort and result, you are again ignoring statistics. The same way your god does, apparently. What are the odds?

Because if feeble premonitions are his idea of effective communication, his idea of effective damage control, his idea of an effective response to what he considers a serious situation, his overall ineptness is simply getting worse and worse and worse. If he is real, the dude can't deity his way out of a wet paper bag. Which means even his most ardent supporters are in the same amount of trouble as the rest of us. He has all that power, and no idea what he is doing.

I'm glad I don't believe in him. I'm glad he's not real. Otherwise, even as a believer, I'd be scared sh*tless.


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #339 on: January 14, 2013, 10:36:00 AM »
With all this talk of gas leaks, schools, and children dying, I'm a little surprised that no one has yet mentioned (unless I missed it, though I did scan through the thread to try to avoid duplication) that the most deadly school disaster in U.S. History happened in 1937, well before the school prayer ruling.

On March 18, 1937 the New London School in New London Texas was destroyed by a huge explosion caused by a gas leak. More than 295 died, and more than 300 were injured, many seriously. A large majority of the victims were children in fifth through 11th grades. Most of the adult victims were teachers.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion
http://www.newlondonschool.org/

There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.  I wouldn't hold Atheism to account for the one you just mentioned, but that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #340 on: January 14, 2013, 10:42:13 AM »
that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

We don't know whether he was or not, but even if he was, so what?  He was probably also wearing shoes.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #341 on: January 14, 2013, 10:54:57 AM »

There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.

Wayne, could you set out the criteria for deciding if a particular event has or has not "the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life."
 

Quote
I wouldn't hold Atheism to account for the one you just mentioned, but that wouldn't let you off the hook for Sandy Hook.  I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

In the case of Sandy Hook, we appear to have had a deranged killer who killed himself. What did his religion have to do with anything?
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #342 on: January 14, 2013, 10:57:54 AM »
I have a feeling the killer was one of yours.

That's all you operate off of isn't it. Feelings.

That's all well and good until you start labeling them as obvious truths and condemning others because they don't have the same feelings. Humans don't work like that. Well, some do, but never well.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #343 on: January 14, 2013, 11:05:58 AM »
  Whether you knowledge it or not, you are the beneficiary of a form of government that could never have come into being left to atheist philosophy. 

   Wow, I disagree.  IMO, one of the greatest things about the United States of America is the founding based on the freedom of religion.  Mr. Harropson, don't you realize how much the persecution  Europeans put up with led to the freedoms the U.S. form of government is based on. It is one of the most important advances in world government that a society's  leaders learned not to choose and force a type of belief on it's people.

"There is an insidious campaign of false propaganda being waged today, to the effect that our country is not a Christian country but a religious one—that it was not founded on Christianity but on freedom of religion. It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by "religionists", but by Christians—not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."  Patrick Henry 

Woops. it looks like I got punked by David Barton.  Screwtape found this to be a misattribution which if true would discount it.  My apologies, and kudo's to Screwtape.

Edited to acknowledge a misattribution of a spurious quote.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:51:48 PM by WayneHarropson »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #344 on: January 14, 2013, 11:12:32 AM »
There are disasters that, quite clearly, don't have the signature of having removed the good effects of Christianity from public life.

In the case of the 1937 school explosion, how do you explain your god apparent absent?  You've said as much that it cannot be blamed on atheists.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #345 on: January 14, 2013, 11:19:12 AM »
"There is an insidious campaign ...worship here."  Patrick Henry

Wayne,

that is not a quote by Patrick Henry.  You are either lying or have been lied to. 
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry#Misattributed
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Pratrick_Henry_say_this_nation_was_founded_not_by_religionists


I just knew I couldn't pull one over on that screwtape.

Well, explain to me, Wayne, how you or anyone else can tell your absurd premonitions and prophesies from anyone else's?  How can we tell who is right and who is wrong?  I think the fact that you have presented so much factually inaccurate information is reason enough to cast doubt on everything you say. 


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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #346 on: January 14, 2013, 11:34:27 AM »
"There is an insidious campaign ...worship here."  Patrick Henry

Wayne,

that is not a quote by Patrick Henry.  You are either lying or have been lied to. 
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry#Misattributed
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Pratrick_Henry_say_this_nation_was_founded_not_by_religionists

You got me screwtape. but I assure you that I believed it.  I'll have to take this one up with David Barton.


I just knew I couldn't pull one over on that screwtape.

Quote
Well, explain to me, Wayne, how you or anyone else can tell your absurd premonitions and prophesies from anyone else's?  How can we tell who is right and who is wrong?  I think the fact that you have presented so much factually inaccurate information is reason enough to cast doubt on everything you say.

I'll edit the other post on which I posted the misattribution.  Good work screwtape.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:54:12 PM by WayneHarropson »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #347 on: January 14, 2013, 01:08:56 PM »
You got me screwtape. but I assure you that I believed it.  I'll have to take this one up with David Barton.

Then I didn't get you, Wayne.  I helped you.  I corrected your understanding of the universe.  Now, what will you do with this new bit of information?  Will you consider the idea that Barton - and a whole host of other writers who are desperate to portray the US as a "xian nation" - might have included a whole lot more misinformation on the subject?  That they may be lying about that whole idea also?  Or will this just be a blip on your radar?

Let me ask, if it is untrue that the US was founded as a xian nation, do you want to believe that?  Do you want to believe what is true?  Or do you simply want your beliefs to be true?
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